41-year-old blokes playing for prime Barca, Ken Barlow's terrace anthem, and the Sir Alex blessing

20:57I think as soon as I saw it, I messaged you guys saying just how good must it have felt to score that goal. like that, just to hit it like that. He probably doesn't play that much anymore. Like across the season, how many chances is he going to actually have to have that time and space in that moment? Like it's so rare. And then you've nailed it and it's gone top corner. It's amazing. It's basically perfection. I was saying this to a Fulham friend earlier today. Like it is where it ends up. It's just like, yeah, a one in a million. And he would have, there would have been enough time for the ball to be in the air for him to think, like, first of all, call this quite, but like this has a chance.

21:31And then it just gets better and better with every passing millisecond. And oh, yeah.

21:37Charlie Eccleshare:But there are essentially two aspects to this goal, Charlie. Obviously, the headline is the strike itself, which is a one in a hundred shot. You have to get a lot of things right and the physics have to be just dead right. But let's not sleep on the first touch because the first touch isn't just a well-executed first touch. It's pure muscle memory for a footballer. It's such a diminutive central midfielder first touch. getting that ball and opening up your body straight away in essentially one movement. They must practice that so much that it must be second nature. But you still have to get it just right for the ball to be just, once you've touched it, to be in that just the right spot for you to hit through it like that.

22:14Charlie Eccleshare:And you could easily get it wrong and nobody would think anything of it. But that first touch is just in your sleep situation. It is, but also that first touch is often just as a diminutive central midfielder, just to get the ball out and then you play like a pass out to your right back or something. that's what it's sort of setting you up for, to then do that with your second one. We've had about 25 years of diminutive central midfielders just taking that touch, and it turns out it's really, really useful. So Harrison Reid, finally glad it came in handy for you. Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN.

22:43Charlie Eccleshare:For those who don't know, VPN stands for Virtual Private Network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while travelling. Indeed, this came from DT, who shared a couple of cultural artefacts with me. First, the original. This is a River Plate fan chant recorded about 20 years ago.

23:37Charlie Eccleshare:It's top tier. It sounds great when sung by South Americans. The rhythm's superb. It just unfolds superbly. I love everything about it. And then, somehow, about four or five years after that, the tune got commandeered for a song about Coronation Street stalwart Ken Barlow. And the caption for this YouTube video is simply filmed in a takeaway in Barrow In Furnace on Christmas Eve.

24:30Charlie Eccleshare:both astonishingly great in their own way dave it's just the journey that's been made between them that i find just wonderful you can imagine being in a takeaway in barren furnace on christmas eve that starts happening you just join in you just get in the spirit of it it's quite dartsy as well i can imagine yeah they still sing the ya ya colo tore thing like just singing Ken Barlow would just be fun. I quite like, because when you played the original clip, I thought it was just going to go straight into the Ken Barlow bit. I like that they've actually put the work in with Hollyoaks, EastEnders, and the other soaps.

25:03Charlie Eccleshare:Superb. Some chants can be hastily constructed, Charlie. The lyrics can be really tenuous. A player running down the wing or something. But some thought has been put into this. He doesn't drink at all of these fictional pubs, but he jinxed in this one, and his name is Ken Barlow. It's just brilliant. A thinking man's chant. goes on for three minutes that chant with people constantly telling them to shut up which is fantastic of course it does um yeah too slightly too long um do you think the weatherfield county fans would sing that but then but then they don't know they do they know about eastenders in weatherfield they should they should they should acknowledge the the existence of other soap operas in soap operas there's no reason not to yeah we had the big mash-up this week it was coronation Street in Emmerdale did a joint episode this week.

25:46Is that right? Yeah. But again, I don't think they were like, oh, it's, oh, you're from Corrie, are you? They won't, it's not.

25:52Charlie Eccleshare:No, you're just from another town. Yeah, yeah. Weatherfield. Anyway, if you want to try Nord VPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches. And our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. And the link is also in our podcast description if you need it. We'll be back very shortly.

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27:35Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

27:42Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is the midweek adjudication panel. This week we're also recording episode 15 of Dreamland. And this time our topic is the baller league. I'm really excited about this, Dave. The pressure on us is to not sound an average of 41 years old, isn't it really? Yeah, that is the obvious pitfall. I've actually watched a fair bit of it sort of dipped in when it's been plugged on Monday Night Football and just out of curiosity. It's not all bad. I'll say that. I'm going in with a very open mind. we've got lots to talk about, Charlie, not just the Baller League, but just the concept of televised, semi-professional five-a-side, I think is quite interesting to me.

28:19Charlie Eccleshare:And it's going to be a good hour. Yeah, hopefully we can relive that 97 tournament with Ajax, Rangers, Liverpool. Who's the fourth? Is it Milan? I genuinely believe I should be credited with rediscovering that. I remember the day you did. About 10 years ago, yeah. Yeah, I remember. I've never seen you so excited. You stumbled across it on a Getty search for something. and yeah there it was this gold so much to tell yeah if you want to get involved in dreamland go to dreamland.footballcliches.com for 5.99 a month you get ad-free listening of all of our episodes two episodes a month of dreamland our exclusive show and other things as well uh right let's begin part two with this question from fortis joe how far up the pyramid do you reckon you could play before the team would be better off playing with 10 men like obviously a 10-man prime Barca is better than Prime Barca with me at right back but I reckon my local eighth tier team would be better off with me playing than after getting a red card before kickoff what about you my faith in my current footballing ability is disintegrating by the day Dave but where would you place yourself you know pyramid wise has your return to five a side not gone that well then it hasn't happened at all okay life gets in the way amongst many other things well don't give up hope just yet No, no, no, no.

29:34Well, yeah, this is an interesting question. I mean, there's the old thing about a team is only as good as their worst player. And this is really taking it to the extreme. I think it would be, you know, the example there, given as someone at right back, I think it's important in this scenario that you're not in defence, that you're either like the second striker or left winger that can just kind of be functional off the ball. And if you do get the ball, no harm can be done too much in those areas. No, I think this is against,

30:02Charlie Eccleshare:no, I have to say, I think it's good that we pin it down, but I think it's against the spirit of the exercise to be innocuous. You have to be playing at right back. That changes things a lot. It does. I love the idea of one of us playing right back for prime Barca. I think it's fantastic. Doing the Dani Alves role. I mean, it's like incredibly important. I'm not going to bomb on. Because yeah, I think otherwise, if you're able to just be a sort of like, just go up front and basically all you do is just try and hassle their defenders, then I think even for Prime Barca, you might serve some purpose.

30:34Like, because you're not, as long as you were very clear, like we are never passing to you, obviously. But when they've got the ball, can you just go, like, you know, their centre-back gets the ball. I would back myself to like run around after them. Would you call for the ball? I mean, I'd probably give up at some point. You know, I'm sure. Call us, call us. Here if you need to. Xavi, Xavi, yep, just feet. Feet, feet, Xavi. Seat, seat. For fuck's sake. The thing is. So yeah, I think the right back thing is important. Would it raise your left?

31:00Charlie Eccleshare:Or Barca if we can. If you were playing for Prime Barca, let's go with that one for now. Would it raise your level? Like when you do play with better players? To an extent. And if you just, because they're going to have the ball, right? And Prime Barca, we're playing Levante or someone here. It's not El Clasico. We're going to have the ball. Marking Cristiano Ronaldo. All you've got to do is just pop it back to whoever gives it to you, quick. Like, you just got to, if you get it, give it. Don't do anything silly. Yeah, that's true, actually. That would actually be all right. I think a key thing as well is how the extent to which Levante know who you are.

31:38No, they don't. They don't know. So they think you could just be like an unknown. Yeah, they would. But like, initially, they'd give you loads of respect because they wouldn't be pressing. So you would be able to just get the ball and like, knock it off. Must have come through La Masia.

31:50Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, exactly. They think, who is this? The latest off the conveyor belt. Who's this 41-year-old? Late bloomer. Yeah, if we could just steer ourselves away from prime Barca for a moment. I need a division, Charlie, for where we know on average one of us is slotting in and not being of direct harm to the team. Not being direct harm. Combined counties? What tier is that? Sort of 8-9, 7-8-9, 70s, 80s. 70s, 80s. It's semi-pro, right? At that level. Yeah, but quite low semi-pro. You're not getting paid. But still semi-pro, it's like, it's one of those things where if you ever see a semi-pro match or if you ever like come up against a team that's like maybe nearly semi-pro in Sunday League, you know, like in a cup competition or something, it's quite noticeable how much better they are.

32:43Oh, no question. But you're not harming them by simply being there, right? Well, they do. Yeah. All of us would be playing out of position for a start. So you're asking someone to play. Well, that isn't. That's not any of our like principal position. Are we fit in this scenario? Like, or are we literally like as we are right now? Or are we like? I know that's a good variable.

33:04Charlie Eccleshare:You know, take your mid thirties. You're active. Okay. So we can run. Yeah. Don't worry about that side of things. Like you're up for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're picking it down the line. It's fine. You're getting it. You're picking it. You're shutting down. I think you'd be all right in combined counties. Not saying you'd excel in any stretch of the match. I'm just saying they wouldn't want you not there. And they'd rather play with 10. I think we're overlooking this. I think that would be okay. You'd still be binned off. You'd still be booed off by the five fans. It's knackering and shit playing with 10.

33:34So even just by, you know, you are helping to preserve other people's energy. Yeah. I have this thought, similar thought. Whenever I've watched the Baller League, I sort of think to myself, probably quite naively but I sort of think you know what if I was just fit if I was like as fit as I could be with my ability I could probably just keep it simple just be at the back and just give it to the good players and not embarrass myself That's what it comes down to Probably get nutmeg they are quite skillful they'll probably be just people

34:01Charlie Eccleshare:that just make you look silly but Huge impression I get from that level of football like it's just relentless and that's the most unappealing thing about wanting to join in Next up Joey Medrington writes in says I'm just watching the darts and the crowd are belting out there's only one Luke Littler. It got me thinking. There are three There's Only One songs. The walking along singing a song one. The one player X, there's only one player X, one player X one. And there's the shorter sharper, there's only one player X, there's only one player X, most famous for me with There's Only One Ronaldo. Now, aside from names fitting the rhythm, is there any discernible rhyme or reason as to which footballers get which versions sung about them?

34:40Charlie Eccleshare:In my mind, the first one is more for older cult figures, such as John McGinn. The second would be for younger British genuine talents, like a Morgan Rodgers. Not sure why I've gone for two Villa players there. And the third would be for bona fide foreign superstars, like a Ronaldo. Not sure if they do, but I could see Manchester United fans doing it for Fernandes as well. I don't know, to be honest. Are there any discernible differences between the three? The first one is definitely, I think the first one is quite old-fashioned, quite sort of jaunty. I don't feel like you hear that as much anymore.

35:08That used to be almost a go-to. I think the second one now has become the sort of go-to. Right. Watford fans will sing There's Only One Graham Taylor when it comes round to the anniversary of his death or that sort of thing. To which tune? To the One Graham Taylor, There's Only One Graham Taylor, which is the second one. Because I think if you use the walking along singing song, walking in Taylor Wonderland, sort of after he's dead, the tone is not quite right.

35:32Charlie Eccleshare:Okay, so we've got one thing to cling on to. You have to be alive to get the Wonderland one. Alive, but quite old. I think is the demographic for walking into a summer wonderland. I mean, the third one has no purpose whatsoever to me, Dave, let alone any sort of cultural significance. Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard that one again. It doesn't sound fun to sing. It doesn't seem fun to listen to. It's only one Ronaldo. Are they making the point there about the other Ronaldo, though, as well? Maybe. Oh, maybe. Yeah, maybe that's more literal, the third one. It's more urgent, like there really is only one, and forget all the others.

36:08Charlie Eccleshare:whereas all the others are really the sentiment of the player being unique is less important Charlie it's more about just celebrating their existence per se I can't believe we've done this at all there is definitely more of an urgency to that third one yes there you go Joey Medrington we have somehow done it

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38:04Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

38:12Charlie Eccleshare:LUFC Capitals writes in next day and says, I'm a secondary school teacher and today I had the pleasure of breaking the news of Ruben Amarim sacking to year eight, who aren't allowed their phones during the school day. I just said it offhand to a lad who was asking if I'd watched the Leeds-Manchester United game yesterday and the ripples it sent through the class, who were supposed to be doing their starter task in silence for their sins, was astonishing. It really had me in mind with transistor radios on final day. Never seen anything like this before in real life. But the power you must have in your hands with this.

38:39Yeah. You could almost do like if there's been a sacking, but for who? Breaking news. Yeah. Jim White's teaching maths today. Exactly. It's like George Bush

38:50Charlie Eccleshare:in the primary, in the nursery. Yeah. Having your assistant come over and say, Ruben Hemring has been sacked. Second manager has been sacked. But yeah, it must be great to tell a bunch of year eights that breaking football news, you would feel like a king for a moment. I'm pleased that they care about it as well. We hear so much about the youth of today, not really being invested in the game in the same way that we are. Well, we hear so much, don't we? Many of them follow individuals. Maybe there are a lot of Amerim fans there. It's like, what? Going to have to follow the Portuguese league again.

39:22Sir, it's not his fault. It's Ratcliffe.

39:24Charlie Eccleshare:It's Wilcox. It's all about Ineos. Yes, excellent. Next up, this came from Connor O 'Neill. Charlie says, in the final minutes of West Ham versus Forrest, Seb Hutchinson referred to the seven-point gap between the two teams and that Forrest having a goal difference eight better than West Ham was worth an extra point. What's the minimum difference in the goal difference of two teams that could be considered an extra point? Interesting, I never would have considered this before. Yeah, I heard that as well and I did sort of stop. It stopped me, like I didn't just take it. Because I do feel as well, is it slightly, maybe this doesn't make any sense, but is it different in a relegation battle as well?

39:58Because one of you might just get, you're more likely to just get a bad defeat and then that takes it away. But then I guess in the title race, one of you could just get a big win just as easily. But yeah, I don't know.

40:09Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, yeah, I guess eight better is - Six or more seems quite, you know, on paper insurmountable, Dave, no matter how many games are left. No, no, I disagree. I think it's too low. Six is quite easy to, a six goal swing is pretty easy in one game. Okay. You've got to win 3-0 the other team. Each of you have a 3-0, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think it's got to be double figures or getting maybe, maybe, I mean, yeah, even eight, like a five and a three could happen. It's not, not, it's not beyond the realms of possibility. It's when you get into like, oh, they would, one team would need to win 12-0 or something and the other team would need to lose.

40:38You know, when you get into, into the teens, it's, it's that silly.

40:41Charlie Eccleshare:Well, exactly, Charlie, you have to factor in how many games are left as well. Does that not affect the total? I mean, it does. I mean, because it's so early. At this current stage where we're not really thinking about remaining games, we've barely even thought about games gone. You know, we are beyond the halfway point, but only just. So you can leave that out of the equation. So, you know, what's your threshold here? You'd have to have a lot then at this point for you to think that that's insurmountable because there's so much time, but then you don't want to get silly with it. Double figures, maybe, even though that is insurmountable.

41:10I also think you more, and again, this is maybe logical, but you more often hear if there's like a five point gap, because then it's like, well, it's effectively a six point, which is like six points feels like two wins, whereas seven to eight somehow doesn't feel like that huge a change in quite the same way.

41:26Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I like rounding up to sort of divisible by three numbers. Excellent. Yes, very good. Wolves have got a 13 worse goal difference than Forrest. You know, one's talking about that, are they? The extra point that Wolves need. As if it wasn't hard enough for them. But then, of course, if they did bridge the points gap, there's a fair chance they would bridge the goal difference in the process. People don't talk about that either, do they, Charlie? Because it's a mundane detail. that sort of undermines the whole discussion. Yeah, I think that's right. Next up, Pies Pies 1862 writes in with an excellent observation, Dave.

41:57Charlie Eccleshare:Ryan Cherky is the most left-footed, right-footed player I've ever seen. He's incredibly left-footed looking. I mean, there is a vibe about him. Obviously, you know, there's a luxury trickster vibe to him. But I have to say, I watched Man City the other day. I saw him kick it with his right foot and thought, huh, interesting. Yeah. He's very left-footed-y. You'd guess he, I would have guessed that he was left-footed if I didn't know. drifting inside off the right I know exactly what this guy means but this is definitely a phenomenon isn't it Charlie players who look like they should be kicking the ball with their other foot just their entire vibe suggests they should be other footed yeah well I remember being really vindicated because I always thought Dembele Usman Dembele was left footed right but then it turns out he's basically both and I think there's an interview with him when he's really young and he's asked it and he's sort of like yeah both but he just to me gave such a he plays off the right cuts in onto his left vibe but then yeah I saw him scoring quite a lot where he was also able to look just like a right winger smashing them in with his right.

42:51Someone like Ben Arthur, who, you know, he's just like oozes left-footedness. What's the threshold for being two-footed? Can you actually quantify it in terms of, do you have to have scored a number of goals with both feet? Because I'm sure Harry Kane has probably scored quite a few goals with either foot, but would you describe him as two-footed? I have looked into this before when doing something on Son, because he was like the ultimate two-footed. And I think he had the highest proportion for players who scored a certain number of Premier League goals scored with his weaker foot. Yeah, Kane is very two-footed.

43:22I think that the thing with him, I think Kane would meet that threshold. It's just that it's not like his most remarkable quality. So it sometimes goes uncommented on. Some of the names were quite surprising though. Someone like Robin Van Persie, who I think people think of as being very left-footed. He really improves his right foot and he was in that list.

43:41Charlie Eccleshare:No Frills stats website FB Ref does detail players' footedness. I can't see any evidence in it now, but I swear they used to express it as a percentage. Of how many touches they take, is that? More kind of a weightedness of which foot they tend to prefer in various actions. But I can confirm that Ryan Cherky is listed as both footed. So Pies Pies 1862 isn't without justification. But speaking to people who we can't decide whether they're right or left, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

44:23Ford Super Sunday.

44:28Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, indeed, a midweek edition, but it's dedicated to one man and one topic only. Keezy tweeted after West Ham's miserable evening against Nottingham Forest, Charlie. Just two years ago, West Ham fans were demonstrating because they wanted David Moyes fired. Be careful what you wish for. Now, be careful what you wish for is such a Keyesian sentiment. Why? Well, because it ties it like his whole belief system is people being like jumped up and sort of getting above their station. You know, that's like one of his key philosophies is sort of stay in your lane. And also, I mean, I would imagine there's a high proportion when he talks about that is kind of British managers.

45:06Right. Because it ties into this sort of snobbishness of like, oh, we don't like these English managers. We want a sexy foreigner. And it turns out the sexy foreigner isn't all you thought he was, was he? Spot on. And it's all tied into the like, I was right. You were wrong to dream and to think you were better than this.

45:22Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, but there's so many layers to it, Dave. It's astonishing that, you know, one very knackered old cliche can have such an affinity with Richard Keyes. But OKBox4077 on Reddit says, this is perhaps of interest. I make Keyesys be careful what you wish for West Ham tweet this evening. The 28th time he's used the phrase on Twitter. He's aimed it at West Ham, Newcastle, Aston Villa, Arsenal, Leicester, Manchester United, Blackburn, various fellow users, VAR obviously, and as the title to multiple blogs. Is this definitive Keyes catchphrase? So I've gone further. I've crunched the numbers on this.

45:55Charlie Eccleshare:Everton have had it once, VAR once. Arsenal, Newcastle, Leicester, Villa have had a brace. be careful what you wish for's. Wenger's very be careful what you wish for, you know, the post-Wenger era. West Ham have had it three times, which is about right for them. But leading the way are Blackburn, sort of Venkis-era Blackburn with four. And also, and this is mostly in replies to people saying that Sky Sports' coverage is shit now, Sky Sports with four. The Blackburn's interesting. What are they wishing for? It's mostly, the sentiment is mostly that, oh, you thought Venkis would be good for you because they've got lots of money, do you?

46:32Charlie Eccleshare:Hmm. Did they ever think that? Remember who used to own you? Not sure where they are. I don't think they were a disaster from the get-go, weren't they, the Venkis? I don't think anyone was clamouring for the chicken owners to come and buy the club. It's an incredible spread to be careful of what you wish for. But over to his blog, Charlie. He's used the phrase 13 times in his blog over the years. Arsenal have had it twice. VAR, Saudi Arabia taking over Newcastle. Is it be careful what you wish for? the broadcasting money flooding into the Premier League and dictating the schedules of fixtures has had that Manchester United twice West Ham three times Birmingham City once Charlton once that's after they sacked Kerbishly he's gone all the way back to that oh wow a retrospective one of the original be careful what you wish for yeah yeah it really was be careful what you wish for has earned one blog title alone so that's that's class he's used it as a general reference to you know just just general advice to people and then finally Just generally be careful about wishing for anything.

47:31Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Finally, the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Direct reference. Not using it as a metaphor, just the story itself. Thank you for explaining the Pied Piper of Hamelin to us, Richard Keyes. So that's it. What was that in relation to? No, he was just recapping the story of Pied Piper of Hamelin. But peppered amongst all these references, both on Twitter and in his blog, Dave, is the fact that Kesey will often preface the phrase with, I often say. It's something I often say. Yeah. As if he invented the phrase, be careful what you wish for. That reminds me of Alexandra Burke sort of claiming to have brought elephant in the room from the US to the UK.

48:15It's just an absolutely sensational claim.

48:18Charlie Eccleshare:Something I often say. You'll often say to Andy. Yeah. Andy often says. He'll sometimes invoke. Just tremendous research all round. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshire. Thank you. Thanks to you, David Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.

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