8.55 seconds in Wrexham, Celeste's Sky Sports flame is out & niche 2025-26 predictions

21:02Charlie Eccleshare:maybe the social media age of fandom Charlie has killed this off because people don't want people don't want to come back to bite them on the arse you know in the future yeah or I thought you're gonna say that people are so desperate to show that they know everything so in the age of oh I've actually been watching this player since he was you know 18 and playing for Leon you wouldn't want to convey ignorance of this potential starlet I like that theory a lot more actually he's actually top eight percentile in FB ref for passes completed so you probably should know who he is right excellent uh anyway this episode is brought to you in association with nord vpn for those who don't know vpn stands for virtual private network it secures your connection protecting your personal information and online activity especially on public wi-fi a vpn can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country which is great for accessing content while traveling indeed over to the balerics we go now to hear from hyperactive posho beer hound schooner scorer.

21:58Charlie Eccleshare:Now I haven't seen a huge amount of this guy I must confess but I've seen enough to safely assume that his football knowledge is in the absolute basement and so it proves. The lunch we've had fantastic bit of shrimp lobster you name it we've had it took the boat over anyway what we're drinking is this an Italian beer called bomb beer whose beer is it christian viery played at ac milan in the 90s now he's now he's making beers let's see how it goes we'll sit on schooner let's see the score charlie this is tantalizingly wrong enough to annoy me but if it was more wrong i reckon i would have ignored it but it's just it's just right on the cusp of being almost right yeah not in the 90s was it no there's no way dave he's referring to Vieri's 14 games in six months at Milan in 05-06, is he?

22:46Charlie Eccleshare:No, definitely not. He hasn't got a fucking clue what he's talking about. Plucked it out of nowhere. Fuck off, mate. I am reliably informed, Charlie, that James Horncastle is fuming about this. So he should be. He's annoyed the right people. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee and the link is also in the podcast description if you need it. We'll be back very shortly.

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26:01Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés, part two of the midweek adjudication panel. Firstly, though, if you want to sign up for Dreamland, our exclusive members-only Football Clichés experience, you'll get two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive new show, ad-free versions of all of our podcasts and other things as well. For just£5.99 a month, go to dreamland.footballcliches.com to sign up. We're recording episode five of Dreamland And straight after this, actually, and I'm really excited about it because it's something that's been preying on my mind for a little while, Dave. We are going to tackle the perfect football season and all the elements that might make that up.

26:37Charlie Eccleshare:Further details will be within the intro of that episode. People are wondering how the hell we're going to do this. But I think we've got all our bases covered. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, yeah. It's going to be really good, perfectly timed ahead of the start of the season. It's been fun looking back at all the various seasons and trying to piece together the perfect elements. Charlie, we say on this podcast a lot about how much we enjoy just listing players' names. Well, I also just enjoy approximating the modern football experience. And this is going to be very much an exercise in that as well.

27:02Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to it. I mean, yeah, you realise you'd have very strong opinions on a lot of these elements. And I, yeah, obviously as a Premier League yearsman, I do think about what makes a good season quite a lot.

27:14Charlie Eccleshare:It's going to be a good curtain raiser, I think. So that's episode five of Dreamland. It's going to be out really soon. Right, let's stick with the season preview theme. I want to go through some creatively posed Premier League season predictions before the season kicks off on Friday. This might set the tone. It came from Kino for Taoiseach. He says, The idea that Brentford are going down or be in a relegation scrap has become the most common controversial opinion. So the point where thinking that Brentford will actually be fine is the actual controversial take. I'll be interested to hear if you know of similar cases of this.

27:45Charlie Eccleshare:Charlie, this is really tantalising because, you know, as we hinted at earlier in this episode, the fear of getting something drastically wrong with a season prediction really sort of plays on people's minds with this sort of stuff. So Brentford are really kind of rattling people now because I don't know how to call Brentford's imminent season. Yeah, I think there's something in this. I'm not sure people would necessarily call it controversial. I think there is an acknowledgement that this feels reasonably likely to happen. But I have been wanting to talk about this for a long time. You so often see this on Twitter on the kind of controversial opinion, but, and it's something that's like, it's really not that controversial.

28:18Like, is it? Like, you know, I know people shout me down for this, butt and it's sort of...

28:23Charlie Eccleshare:Whisper it quietly? Okay. Yeah, kind of. It's a weird caveat. Dave, if I had a gun to your head right now, where are Brentford finishing in the Premier League this season? This is the cycle that you go through because we talked about it a few weeks ago. Me and you, Adam, were in agreement that we thought Brentford would struggle. But it's just really easy to go for that opinion just because of a new manager who hasn't been a manager before. They've lost two of their best players, probably going to lose a third. signed Jordan Henderson which we're not sure whether that's going to be good or bad so we're and we're also desperately looking for a team that could get relegated that isn't a promoted team so we'll go for them but that's solid logic having your team decimated having your best players leave or presumably about to leave is a massive reason for a club to be shit yeah yeah it is but also I think the earlier you go for that opinion the more time you've got for it to come back round and go actually I'm not sure maybe Wolves are going to be the ones that struggle this shit you're allowed to change your mind And I do also, what I think is irritating with these things is if people do present these opinions as if they're like the first person to have it.

29:26That is really annoying. And you do get a bit of that. You're like, it's in Brentford. I don't know. I think they might struggle. Everyone is saying that. That's when it becomes annoying.

29:36Charlie Eccleshare:Everyone. It's all right for your predictions to be wrong. Don't worry about it. Everything will be fine. Listener Sam has a cracker for us. Here is his list of predicted Monday night football guests for the first portion of this season. John Terry, Lee Karsley, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, Jamie Vardy, Ange Postacoglu, Adam Lallana. I feel very strongly about that. Pepe Reina. That is a great shout. Steve Cooper, Serena Wiegman and Son Heung-min. What a list that is, Charlie. There's not a dud in there at all. No, that's incredible. I mean, Ange, yes, 100%. He would love to do it. He'd be great on it.

30:13Broadcasting background.

30:14Charlie Eccleshare:He feels like the least likely of the lot, just because I feel like he might be a bit hesitant. But at the same time, he's got a job to get, right? And also, as much as he... Like last season, for instance, you can get away with doing... After a Thursday night game, you can just tag on some questions and make that your Premier League preview. He would always come back on the Friday, despite they might have played away. Because he must have quite enjoyed them. He loved holding court. And I think similarly on MNF, you get feted, you get presented, as being this like oracle that seems kind of fun i think and i think he'd really enjoy it that is a good shout actually dave ang postacoglu has a really good all-round monday night football appeal because he could sit and happily answer pretty much all the questions that carrigan could fire at him even the kind of things like where did it go wrong at spurs like slightly spiky ones he'd be happy to answer but also i think he'd be quite happy standing in front of the massive screen you know telling us why burnley's press isn't working properly he'll happily shoot the shit about any team as well, whether it means anything to him or not.

31:15Charlie Eccleshare:So I think he'd be really solid. And a lot of people would be really impressed with him being on there as well. Yeah, he ticks every possible box for them. He'll be a really good guest. He has a vested interest in doing it himself because he was at such a level that he doesn't need a Monday night football. He's not Gary O 'Neill. He's not Will Still. He's got enough about him to get a job anyway, but it still seems to be something that the out-of-work managers just think they have to do just to get them in the public eye. It's in the League Managers Association statutes by now, I believe this.

31:48Charlie Eccleshare:John Terry wouldn't bowl me over, Charlie. I think that's a really, you know, Monday Night Football by numbers guest. But Serena Vigman would be really interesting. Like, it would be just an unusual, you know, route to go down. And I would, you know, I want to see a top level manager on there. And that would be, I think she would do it. Yeah, she feels a little too, like, on Sky Sports somehow. Like, I don't know. I think of her because she's like England, she's international. that's more sort of BBC ITV whereas Terry feels so sky like I can imagine him also doing the Gary Neville soccer box I can sort of imagine him on anything and he would be perfect for the later bit of the show when they go through like best players you've played with, manager and telling the Mourinho stories for like the 58th time he went out and he told us we would win 1-0 and we did, yeah yeah I don't think Lee Carsley will be up for it we interviewed him on EnglandPod a few months ago before the Euros and he's a nice bloke but he's just not really I don't think he's as we saw when he was the interim England manager he's not really that bothered about doing all the big press stuff but you might like talking about the tactics he's a real sort of tactics man him and Carragher would have a good time on the old big screen I think maybe Ashley Cole his assistant could potentially he's done it already hasn't he he must have done I think there's one thing missing from this list though and that's a current player who's injured and therefore has time on their hands so obviously James Madison is surely going to pop up at some point this season Ooh, great shout.

33:10Charlie Eccleshare:Have a recovery going, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going all right. I know it's tough, but... Yeah. Yes, that's a great shout. Difficult to watch the boys, but yeah, I've been really impressed and cheering them on. Vardy is a high possibility, Charlie, because it's good to have a striker on because people like watching and Sky Sports like asking players about the art of goal scoring. That's a slam dunk Monday Night Football situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do nothing or game, but you're making so many runs off the ball, aren't you? And that's what we don't see. I do just wonder if Vardy, does he give enough of a shit to do it?

33:43In some ways that helps you because it might be like, oh, we can just get him on, he's outspoken. But I can also just imagine, unlike Madison, who I think loves talking about football and kind of loves the attention. They've had some very softly spoken, reticent people on there, though.

33:56Charlie Eccleshare:It doesn't seem like a prerequisite to be a good talker. They've had some real sort of, you know. No, I'm sure he'd be good. I just don't know if he'd be arsed. Yeah, maybe. That's possible. Dave, who's going to finish 11th? Brentford? I don't know. Charlie? They'd bite your hand off that. I reckon Nottingham Forest. I think they'll have a tricky season after last year. A little gentle regression, sort of halfway down to where they were before. Yeah, I think they might actually be quite a lot lower and then sort of rally and get back to sort of safety of the table. Oh, OK. I thought your logic would be that they would hover around 7th or 8th and then just plummet to 11th right at the end.

34:35No. No, I think the managing Europe element for them will be quite tricky and tough start. And they might have been a little bit found out. But then they do have some good players, so they'll be fine.

34:48Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, your logic basically just oscillates and then finally finds its place. Charlie, who won't have the bottle to sack their manager until someone else does in the November international break? And then they quickly follow suit, hoping they'll get less heat for it as a result. I think also Forrest. I think with this imagined slow start that I've got, because it'll be tough to get rid of Nuno. He did such a good job. But at the same time, results speak for themselves and we are 15th and with regret. Sorry, Nuno. And then Ange has just been on Monday Night Football. And there he is. Ange de Forest is so good.

35:20Charlie Eccleshare:And he's a bit Greek as well. For another tilt of the Europa League. Oh, that's magnificent. Historic club as well. He loved talking about Brian Clough and growing up watching them. Oh my God. It's written in the stars. That's too right. I'd never even considered this before. That is perfect. Dave, who or what will be Kesey's new slightly excessive cross-platform preoccupation for 25-26? I think you've got to have a referee controversy in there. I can see him actually really fixating on the referees counting down the seconds with the ball in the keeper's hands. thing I can you know something that in the grand scheme of things is completely irrelevant I saw it in the wild for the first time last night and Watford played Norwich in the Carabao in the 93rd minute in a game that we were obviously going to lose their keeper had the ball took a bit long with it the referee put his hand up I couldn't see the fingers I could see he was doing something but I couldn't make out the fingers but the fans were just annoyed anyway and and what was interesting was that clearly the fans haven't been paying attention and they were still counting six They don't know it's gone up to late.

36:24The referees are going to be like,

36:25Charlie Eccleshare:you haven't even read the rules, lads. You haven't got a clue. Charlie, I think Kesey will take a few weeks before laying into the Puma match balls. I think that's just the sort of level that he could get stuck into. Yeah, related to that as well, because he tweeted in about Jokerez being used to the Puma match balls and the idea that that would help him. Did he? I couldn't work that tweet out. Was he actually stating that as his own opinion or was he lampooning Arsenal fans for having that opinion? Like saying that they were thinking that you know jokeres is gonna be great because he's he knows the ball so i couldn't work out what level of irony he was working on i can't believe he was sincere about it was he i don't know but i can't imagine he'd be that subtle would he like if he wanted to make a dig at the arson fans and also because he has been talking up jokeres because i think that will become another thing because jokeres will undoubtedly become a massive dividing top divisive topic and you know but he's he's gone in early sort of all for him which is quite risky because i think had he not known him from Coventry he could be doing the whole he scored goals in Portugal Andy I would score goals in Portugal but he's he's taken the other view yeah and then the reverse of that I think he'll be going in for Amarim in a pretty big way if results aren't good early.

37:35Charlie Eccleshare:This is a good point actually Dave Jokeres is clearly could do no wrong in Kese's eyes for obvious reasons but I think he'll go after Sesko because it's the Man United angle it's an easy route in for Kese's Ayer and I think if Sesko goes six, seven games without scoring early doors, I think he might come up with a nickname for him, Misko. I think maybe, yeah, yeah, Misko would be good. Benjamin Misko. I think he also, I mean, he's already hinted, hasn't he, that he doesn't think the Mbumo deal was good value. I could see him having, what were they doing signing it from Brentford, Andy? Brian, I'm hopeless.

38:12Charlie Eccleshare:That could be good. Charlie, any breath of fresh air potential this season? I mean, it feels like a dying art. I think Sunderland, we talked about it the other day, didn't we, that they at least appear to be giving it a good go. And people want a new team because it's been so long. The last two years has been such a bust with promoted teams going straight back down again. Yeah, it does help to be a sort of slightly surprised promoted team, Dave, to be the breath of fresh air. But more needs to happen. They need to have a distinct style of play. I must confess, I know nothing about Sunderland's style of play.

38:41Charlie Eccleshare:But they've made some shrewd signings, so that could be that could be it maybe they've made a lot of signings and we haven't seen them in the Premier League for a while and you know there's a bit of romanticism around the Stadium of Light and it's a big club and it's the North East and we're going to have the Derby back and everything you know in contrast Leeds are a bit weird in that they're in this sort of yo-yo period aren't they and we sort of the Premier League welcomes Leeds United because it's a big club but none of us are quite sure whether they are actually proper leads still or are they going to fuck it up again and then Burnley just Burnley aren't they they've even though they had the company era where they were actually playing or trying to play quite progressive football they've now gone back to being really really ultra defensive under Scott Parker but they still haven't shaken the tag of the dice years and just being unglamorous Charlie what will be the first ref cam based controversy of the season will there be something that like it appears that a ref was celebrating a goal and that that was like their fists in front of his face or something like that.

39:45Or even like, you know, if you listen really carefully, you can hear like a little yelp of excitement from the ref. And that's typical of him. Like we know he grew up a Liverpool fan. Yeah, it's just going to be manna from heaven for all the sort of amateur ref conspiracy theorists out there. They're going to be analysing it like they're the bloody CIA.

40:03Charlie Eccleshare:Well, exactly. And on that note, I think there's a more mundane controversy in the works. And this could run and run throughout the whole season, Dave, which is, you know, analysis of referees' positions where they're their viewpoints of certain decisions. We're going to have amateur experts on referees. How can he see it from there? Yeah, exactly. But he's just run 50 yards, mate. Honestly, I just think, yeah. Well, he was in a better position for Arsenal's game, I noticed, the other day for it. That's interesting. We can have loads of that. That will be tedious. Finally, Dave, which player will emerge as a late contender for Thomas Tuchel's World Cup squad, only to be uncontroversially cut from the 30-man preliminary squad just before the tournament?

40:41Charlie Eccleshare:I'm going for Tino Liveramento, Jarrell Quanta, Archie Gray or Jamie Gittins. Gittins is interesting, yeah. No one's really talking about him. He's not really in the England picture, is he? But he will be by dint of signing for a big six club. I think Adam Wharton could continue to have an interesting England existence. Right. Being out of nowhere making the squad for the Euros in 2024, then not getting a look in on the pitch, then he didn't get into Tuchel's first squad because he was still with the under-21s, because they had a tournament. You know, there's a lot of, there is like a really low level clamour from England fans for him to be in the team.

41:18But I just wonder whether he might actually never quite get there.

41:22Charlie Eccleshare:If he narrowly misses out on an England squad for the next, for the World Cup, Charlie, I actually think Crystal Palace's fan base would actually explode. Like, I think that's one injustice too far for them. Just a perpetual clamour. Could you take a player being left out of England's World Cup squad to Cass? Could you just reconsider this, please? This lot over in Switzerland says he should be in the squad. So that would be... Presenting him with evidence of his numbers for the season where he sits relative to England's other midfielders. There's going to be a lot of greelish talk, isn't there, this season with England, I think, as well.

41:57Did you see the stuff about him getting the number 18 shirt for Everton? And they've made a bit of a song and dance about it because it was Wayne Rooney's number for Everton and Paul Gascoigne's number for Everton in that somewhat forgettable spell. And Gilfie Sigurdsson. And Grealish was quoted himself saying, Wayne Rooney and Paul Gascoigne were my favourite ever players and English players and getting the number 18. I'm really happy to have it. Nobody knew, apart from Everton fans, that Wayne Rooney was number 18. Also, you're on loan, son.

42:27Charlie Eccleshare:Don't worry about what number you're getting. Remember the number? Yeah, no, I actually don't. It's mad that I can't picture Rooney's number when he scores that goal. Right, next up, a very silly Mesut Haaland-Dix irritation from MCFC fan, Charlie, says, I'm well aware of how silly this is, but it really irks me when a football stadium on Google Maps doesn't have the pitch in place. For example, for some reason, I was finding the Burton Albion Stadium on Google Maps today, and it was just all turfed up. It was just, you know, the clay underneath. There must be a logical explanation for this. Like, you know, maybe the sight lines for a satellite are clearer in the summer, and that's when teams are ripping up their pitches.

43:04So is this across the board, or this happens a lot, or this is like an isolated incident? It does happen a lot. I've seen it happen. Right, that is weird.

43:12Charlie Eccleshare:It's happened to me, and it can't just be unlucky. It can't just be two people being unlucky. It must be a satellite thing. Yeah. Maybe, yeah, you could be right. It could be something logical to that, and there probably is a fair bit of randomness in there as well. But I know what you mean. It is unsatisfying. Is it a rights issue? Can't show the hallowed turf of Burton Albion. Yeah, maybe. There we are. Right, this came from Henry Thiexton. Here is Jan Argofjortoft on Middlesbrough's first game at the Riverside Stadium in 1995, talking to vanquished cliches quiz opponents. It was what it was.

43:46And then we got into the first game of the season. We played Chelsea. That was a great Chelsea team. I did a Bus Aldrin goal. I scored a second one. So Craig Hignett, the local hero, scored the first one.

43:59Charlie Eccleshare:We beat Chelsea. I love this concept and the idea that it could catch on. a really niche reference, Charlie, a Buzz Aldrin goal. It sounds like something like, you know, the German language would come up with. Yeah. That's what a class reference this is. He is, of course, the second man to walk on the moon after Neil Armstrong. Yeah, I've never heard that before. I wonder if that is a Scandinavian thing that he's brought over. I mean, it has a little bit of a foothold, kind of footballing relevance, Dave, being the guy who scored the other goal in a game that was quite pivotal, but people always remember the other goal.

44:31Charlie Eccleshare:Take, for example, Ricky George's winner for Hereford against Newcastle in 1972. That won the game, but no one talks about it because of Ronnie Radford's screamer. The guy, who was it that scored the other, was it the hat-trick in the Stanley Matthews final? Oh, Stan Mortensen. Mortensen. Yeah. He's done Aldrin, Apollo 13 and all the lot. Right. Charlie, have you ever read Homer's Iliad? I have done not all of it, but I have studied some of it, yeah. Okay. As a schoolboy. Ben Rowe writes in and says, I was reading Homer's Iliad for my sins and came across in line 85 what must be one of the earliest recorded usages of this specific footballing disdain.

45:12Charlie Eccleshare:So basically, Agamemnon has suggested that they retreat in their battle. And Odysseus gave him a black look and said, Agamemnon, why do you say such a thing? Damn you. You should have taken charge of some tin pot army instead of leaving people like ourselves. they weren't saying tin pop back then were they well i mean this is a modern translation i mean yes thank you charlie yes homer wouldn't have written this himself but i do remember studying um like latin ancient greek you would be encouraged with your translations to give try and give it a flourish especially as you right sort of moving up to like a level and stuff so like and i remember sometimes they would our teachers would say like you know think of don't just go for like the boring translation try and use like a modern or more interesting turn of phrase so i I wonder if the person who's done this translation is a footballman.

46:02Goes written by John Cross, I think, isn't it, this one?

46:06Charlie Eccleshare:Right, next up, the ghost of Gerald Sid writes in, Dave, and says, with the talk about cricket being good for cliches content on Tuesday's pod, who would Adam have present cricket cliches and who would he have on the panel? Well, before Lineker nips in and creates the rest is cricket anyway. One name for you, Vithushan Ihantharaja. I think he'd get it. I think he'd be a good cliches, cricket clichesman. Yeah, yeah. He's on the cliche Sporkle. He had his one app, didn't he? Yeah. Should we start an empire? Should we start branching out? I've long thought it could be a possibility. I did the tennis cliche segment for Five Live earlier in the summer.

46:42That's true. I mean, to go alongside Vish, Nick Miller, of course. Yeah, absolutely. It's all there for us. Could you get 450 episodes of cricket cliches? I wouldn't put it past them. I think what we would do if we started out any other cliches is probably not do two a week.

46:55Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, enough on our plates. Right. Twig writes in next, Charlie, and says, Bear with me. This is meant for you and not mum's net. My son is wearing nappies overnight, but is nearly always dry in the morning. However, when we have tried without nappies, he keeps wetting the bed. All I can think is how this is the bed-wetting equivalent of being too good for the championship but not good enough for the Privia League. Brilliant. What a way to analyse the situation from a parent's perspective. That is superb, yeah. My youngest son is at a similar stage. And I have to say, I hadn't yet made that connection in my head.

47:26but I now will.

47:27Charlie Eccleshare:Just can't handle the physicality of a nappy-less night. Needs the comfort of the champo. Comes thick and fast in the champo. Right, similarly, David writes in, Dave, and says, I walked past a lad of about eight in Ikea this afternoon talking to his mum about how his football team are doing. He told her he has a goal contribution every six and a half minutes. No. Come on. What's the mum reaction to that? Oh, that sounds good. That sounds good. Classic Ikea chat, that is. Blimey, things have moved on, haven't they, Dave? Yeah, they have, but I mean, bloody hell. God, the game's gone. Yeah, it really has.

48:02There was a kid of about a similar age, I reckon, maybe a bit younger, behind me at Watford on Tuesday night. And he was just absolutely going for it. It was like he was a 50-year-old bloke, just swearing, giving it the wanker sign. I couldn't believe it.

48:17Charlie Eccleshare:That's like direct learned behaviour, isn't it? Oh, yeah. You'll see families on holiday and the 13-year-old kid is walking around like the dad. The same posture, the same look on their faces, the same sort of suspicious look as they enter a room. They're sort of scanning the room and it's a mistrust of society that's bled down to the child. Yeah, basically. I've seen it. It happens. Just on the game's gone, by the way. Sorry, I saw someone tweeting. I can't remember who it was, but it was a kind of like, I think it was after the Palace thing. It was one of those like, you know, this is no club can be ambitious because of this.

48:49There's so much hypocrisy in football. It's all about money. and then the last tweet of this thread said the game hasn't gone yet, but and I was like, I think that's the first time I've ever seen it being talked about in that way the game's not gone, it's not completely gone but it's getting very close to being gone

49:05Charlie Eccleshare:I love this game but it's testing my patience it's so nearly gone, but not quite it's like the UN panel for climate change releases a report saying the game could be gone by 2030 if we don't take action the brink of gone yeah we're on the brink of gone it very much feels that way this episode has gone though thanks to everyone for listening thanks to you dave walker thank you thanks to you charlie and we'll be back on tuesday see you then

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