In short
Football Clichés discusses England’s World Cup semi-final vs Norway (2-1 AET), the “all at sea” feeling after Mexico, and the England camp’s media friction (Thomas Tuchel vs Gabriel Clarke). They also debate what counts as a “late winner,” the Haaland substitution reaction, and the FIFA gyroscope/match-ball cable controversy. Later they play a “verb” game for quarterfinal results and preview England vs Argentina, including Messi’s first-ever match vs England and a 2005 friendly reference.
Guests
Charlie Eccleshare (sports journalist; co-host), David Walker (co-host; based in New York), plus Joe Cole (guest on a separate segment about pyramids; referenced via another show). No other named guests appear in this transcript.
Key claims
The Norway game felt flat/stodgy despite progression; the ball-cable issue was “tin pot” and not noticed on-pitch; Tuchel’s “mentality” exchange was confusing but entertaining; England’s “late winner” wasn’t truly late.
Notable examples
Bellingham’s winner; Haaland being subbed off; Tuchel’s “enjoy it!” moment; 2005 England 3-2 Argentina friendly (Rooney/Owen climax); Emi Martínez/Christian Romero as likely “hate figures”; Manzambi to Aston Villa.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOOpening Remarks and Introductions
1:04 to 2:45
Hosts introduce the episode and each other, setting the stage for the discussion.
“Tee off on the Turkish Riviera, Europe's premier golf destination.”
England vs. Norway Match Reflection
2:50 to 8:00
Discussion on the emotional experience of the England vs. Norway match.
“Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés.”
England's Performance Analysis
8:00 to 13:31
Analyzing the ups and downs of England's performance during the World Cup.
“But part of the weirdness perhaps was the performance itself, really stodgy, Norway on top for long periods and yet inevitably England did their thing with their main men and saw it through.”
Discussing Late Goals in Extra Time
13:31 to 14:00
Debate regarding the definition of late goals, especially in extra time.
“I can't believe that there's that much being needed to be added on at the end of a first half of extra time.”
Late Goals in Extra Time
14:00 to 16:44
Discussion on the definition and significance of late goals in football during extra time.
“You've got to just reframe it as extra time, haven't you, Dave, basically?”
Haaland's Substitution Reaction
16:44 to 19:06
Analyzing the reaction to Erling Haaland's substitution during a match.
“Today, how do you sum up what the team have found?”
Tuchel's Interview Breakdown
19:06 to 21:48
A deep dive into Thomas Tuchel's interview reaction and its implications.
“And as everybody should have enjoyed it, Charlie, because I didn't think it was that kind of adversarial, that sort of interview.”
England's World Cup Hopes
21:48 to 24:15
Discussing England's chances in the World Cup and public expectations.
“I mean, this is a dilemma we've confronted on this podcast before.”
The World Cup Small Talk Dilemma
24:15 to 26:28
Addressing how to engage in football discussions with casual fans or non-fans.
“In about January, February as they're winning some games.”
Heart and Tactics in Football
26:28 to 28:06
Exploring the balance between tactical discussions and the emotional side of football.
“That wasn't as enjoyable as I thought it would be.”
Show all 21 chapters
Heart-Centric Players
28:06 to 28:23
Discussion on the agreement of Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira and its implications.
“The annoying thing is, is he gets Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira to agree with him.”
Heart and Tactics in Football
28:57 to 30:19
Exploring the balance between tactical discussions and the emotional side of football.
“Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned.”
Quarterfinal Match Analysis
30:28 to 33:57
In-depth discussion analyzing various quarterfinal soccer matches.
“It just means they sort of finally got through and got rid of them.”
England's Soccer Identity
33:58 to 35:02
Exploration of England's historical performances and their current state.
“We can't have just the four seeds in the final.”
Messi's History with England
35:03 to 36:05
Discussing Messi's first game against England and its historical context.
“If you keep getting close enough, keep putting yourself in there.”
Memorable Matches and Commentary
36:06 to 40:06
Recollection of a famous match between England and Argentina and its commentary.
“But he was suspended because he got sent off in his Argentina debut against Hungary.”
Reflections on England's Golden Generation
40:07 to 42:00
Discussion on the aspirations and realities of England's golden generation of players.
“Just before that Everton 2006 amazing winter DVD came out.”
The Next National Hate Figure
42:00 to 44:35
Discussing potential players who could become hate figures for England in upcoming matches.
“He says it's absolutely nailed on that a Premier League player becomes a national hate figure after this game.”
Joe Cole and the Pyramids
44:35 to 46:19
A humorous take on Joe Cole's opinions about the pyramids and conspiracy theories.
“And I think that's a really elite mentality.”
Transfer News: Johan Manzambi
46:19 to 47:26
Discussion on the transfer saga of Johan Manzambi and his connection with Aston Villa.
“yeah god imagine their indignance we had a verbal framework and everything verbal framework what is a verbal framework Dave what does it look like I'm thinking 3D here, but I don't know how it works.”
Kit Man Controversy at Rangers
47:26 to 48:15
Talking about the return of former kit man Jim McAllister to Rangers and his previous controversies.
“So maybe some positive talks were actually required in this case.”
Transcript
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1:43He is, you know. Oh, I fell! Brilliant! He's ran the goalkeeper He's done it Absolutely incredible He launched himself Six feet into the crowd And Kung Fu kicked A supporter who was Without a shadow of a doubt Giving him lip It's amazing He does it time and time And time again Break up the music Charge a glass This nation is going to dance all night.
2:46Charlie Eccleshare:presentations brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts. This is Football Clichés.
2:55Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry and this is the World Cup Adjudication Panel. Joining me first of all, Charlie Eccleshare. How's it going? Very well, thank you. Alongside you from New York once again, it's David Walker. How are things? Things are good, despite it being six minutes past six in the morning here. Yeah, sorry about that one. But it is great to see your US embassy woes finally sorted. And you're back in your rightful place, which is sitting just behind Gary Lineker in England's score on the Netflix social media content. You're turning into like Rio Ferdinand, aren't you?
3:31Charlie Eccleshare:Are you going to end up jumping on his shoulders for every goal? I was thinking that the other day. Like, you know, how far can this go? This was a quarterfinal, big game, but semi-final, do we need something else? I did have a passing moment where I thought, could I vault that sofa confidently? Could I get over it in one leap without falling over? One for the semi-finals, I think, definitely worth a go. Maybe the final, actually. You should have been doing your box jumps in prep for that. Doing the third place playoff, all bets are off by then. There was a moment to reveal a little bit behind the curtain.
4:07So we were watching that in the studio. And as you've seen from all the footage, there's all these sofas sitting around. There was quite a lot of people there, actually, for that game. A lot of guests and family and people would come in to watch it. But we've got the BBC or the ITV coverage via some sort of streaming app and VPN thing in the studio. So we can see the English coverage, which, of course, means it's on a delay. and just through the other room on this occasion there was somebody watching it on Fox and just before Bellingham scored the second goal about a good 45 seconds I would say 30 to 45 seconds we heard screams and celebrations and we all knew what that meant but we couldn't quite bring ourselves to acknowledge it and we were sat there sort of going oh no we've scored haven't we I'm so annoyed but also really fucking happy about that.
5:02And it was like a really strange mix of emotions for 30 seconds because we knew a goal was going to come. We knew we'd have to celebrate it. We were pissed off that it had been spoiled but really relieved that we had actually scored as well.
5:13Charlie Eccleshare:Did you hear Fletch go, Inor War! Sadly not. But yeah, England 2, Norway 1, AET. Charlie, a really strange game, actually. As momentous as it was in the grand scheme of England's tournament, I don't think I'm going to be re-watching a superbly soundtrack montage of that in five years time, like some of England's other heroic World Cup performances. I don't really know why it was so odd. Yeah, I mean, I did always have the feeling that this was going to feel a little bit flat after Mexico. Like Mexico was so, even in the moment, had so many elements to it that felt like just massive. Really? So you think that was it?
5:47Charlie Eccleshare:Like Mexico was just too good and it couldn't live up to it? Yeah, I do think in tournament runs or even like going for the league, there are some games. that Mexico game reminded me a bit of when Arsenal won the league, the West Ham game just felt like the game. Like that was the one, everyone knew that was the one they needed to get through. And I have felt that if we could get through the Mexico one, I thought we'd beat Norway. And I weirdly have felt confident throughout we'd beat Argentina. I don't know, so to follow Mexico with this, this reminded me a bit of the Denmark semi-final and the Euros.
6:19Charlie Eccleshare:It felt too obvious to say, but I think you might be right. I didn't want to draw too many Scandinavian parallels, but I think you actually might be right. But I think, you know, because we went behind in that game, didn't we? To like a stunner sort of bolt out the blue. That was a free kick, I think. Yeah. And then, but it was like, but we should still come back and win. And we ultimately did an extra time like we did on Saturday. So yeah, I don't know. I think it was just, maybe it was like an expectations thing or just, yeah, following Mexico, I think was always going to be quite tricky. Mexico, Dave, was a night game.
6:47Charlie Eccleshare:It'd been built up as this cauldron where they'd never lost in 148 years. and it had all the ingredients of a properly memorable occasion, whereas this was just a very, very humid day against Norway. Yeah, I think there was always going to be a bit of a regression, I think, perhaps against Norway. And so it seemed, yeah, I think the Denmark comparison is spot on, actually. And it almost tracks as well. It's just this extra game that we've had. It's sort of our, the rhythm of it is all out of kilter from what we're normally used to. That normally would have been a semi-final because we've had the amount of games.
7:25Now we've got another game. It was like the Mexico game felt like a quarterfinal, you know, and that one should have been the semi. And also coming before, to be sandwiched between Mexico and Argentina, which are, you know, two such like storied opponents. And in the case of Mexico, the venue. I mean, because in that Euros, Germany, the Germany win is like the Mexico equivalent for me. That was the one where it's like, could England finally beat Germany in a knockout game? and that was the sort of lift-off moment.
7:53Charlie Eccleshare:So it was a strange game, but I'm not putting that all down to after the Lord Mayor's show aspect because it was still a big game in England's World Cup campaign. But part of the weirdness perhaps was the performance itself, really stodgy, Norway on top for long periods and yet inevitably England did their thing with their main men and saw it through. So a game of mild peril, I would basically sum it up as for large periods. But via George Foote, if one person summed up the exact state of England at one particular point, it's Gary Neville, who might well have stumbled upon the perfect description.
8:31Soloth could have played Harlan in at 1-0. I wonder whether you might say a midfielder would have played him in, but a striker's thinking, that might be my goal. He's got to square it, hasn't he? What is he doing? I mean, look, this is the period in the game where they've just scored. We're in a little bit all at sea. We've lost our heads. We're in a little bit all at sea.
8:48Charlie Eccleshare:That's so good. it's slightly non-committal Charlie but it does sum up just how disjointed England were at that very moment of the game yeah there's an element of all at sea here can you be half at sea day at this moment in time we're all at sea a little bit some of them were at sea some of them weren't up for it it was funny that open their opening goal as well I did do a bit of Steve McLaren I was saying how I was saying that I'd been watching the Golden Generation BBC documentary and I was like god it does remind you how crap things were then for England and how much better they are now you know like we just you know now I feel like games are so much more exciting and we don't get embroiled in these and then as I was saying it that Norway goal went in it was like we're in for a long night aren't we this is gonna be a long stodgy extra time kind of night in many ways a a textbook um sort of post Southgate era England performance Dave but um But there was a slightly tin pot hue to the whole occasion, which was the overhead camera cable slash snickometer row.
9:50Charlie Eccleshare:I'm pleasantly surprised, though, that it hasn't earned itself a gate suffix yet. No one's come up with a gate suffix for it yet. I don't know how they would do it. I think somebody did suggest, I'm sure someone tweeted us saying, is it going to be known as Wiregate? But that doesn't feel right to me. It's not. Spidergate? Camgate? No. Cablegate? No, none of it worked. It's quite sort of true to the original Watergate, the wire tapping. So there's a nice nod there. But yeah, I mean, as I put it to you on WhatsApp the other day, Charlie, if I'd sent you a picture, the image that Dale Johnson of the BBC tweeted out of FIFA's gyroscope magnitude data from the inertial measurement unit inside the match ball.
10:30Charlie Eccleshare:And I'd said, right, a month ago, if I'd sent that to you and said, this is going to sum up England's kind of frozen in time World Cup passage. and what do you make of this? I mean, look at it. It's utterly absurd. That's not definitive. It's both absurd, but also so of the moment to the point where, and I know this is a cliche in itself, I genuinely, I mean, it was also like, you know, it was late at night, whatever. So I was probably a bit tired as well. But when I first saw the tweet about it, I genuinely thought it was a parody of like, what are they going to be moaning about next? The gyroscope magnitude data, you know, in a kind of like the spirit of like, you know, toenails and stuff.
11:02Because obviously there was a lot of VAR-y stuff and Norway were kicking off about the gold being disallowed. I thought, yeah, it was the sort of thing that, like, have I got news for you or something, Mike Tweet.
11:11Charlie Eccleshare:I think that's my favourite of Charlie's hypothetical voices, the slightly outraged What's Next fan. Yeah. Did it generate really enough for a row in the end, Dave? I can't bring myself to watch the footage of the ball perhaps hitting the cable. And then I have subsequently then seen definitive footage of that it didn't hit it. ITV's refereeing expert Christina Unkle said something about a rainbow arc and I was getting really deep into it. Yeah, I've seen a few clips. I've seen one which looks so ridiculous that maybe it's fake, where the ball just comes down at a right angle. That didn't happen.
11:47I'm sure that's been doctored. But then even watching the couple of ones in real time, you just can't see it because you lose the ball in the crowd, don't you, when it's that high?
11:56Charlie Eccleshare:I think, crucially, no one appealed for it, Charlie, which I think is, in this case, is a really... I know we shouldn't rely on this stuff from a refereeing perspective, but I think, in this case, It's a good barometer if anything's gone wrong. Literally nobody noticed on the pitch. Yeah, I mean, I wonder how much it's just one of those things. It's so weird and unusual. You're not, your mind as a player isn't programmed to start appealing for it. Have you ever played on a 4G pitch where there's the wire across it? Because in the week, they can pull a net across to divide it into three. Right.
12:25You know what I mean? A full size 3G. I've only played with the netting itself, I think.
12:28Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Right. So sometimes you can pull it back and then have a full size pitch. and I've played on a couple of those and obviously if the ball hits that, you will see it and it's like it's a dropped ball. But it's like a pleasing bleeding of very weird tin pot midweek 4G antics into the World Cup. Yeah, it just didn't, as curious as it was, Charlie, and of course everyone loves to get stuck into tiny, silly little details like this. It didn't feel enough to kind of overshadow the game itself. But Jude Bellingham, of course, stepping up with the winner. Popping, no, he's not, we know he's not a popper-upper.
13:00Charlie Eccleshare:That wasn't a popping up. So I maintain that. But yes, Jude Bellingham provided the moment for England. And listener Sam says, BBC News called England's second goal a late winner. Even though extra time is obviously late in the game, I don't feel like a goal three minutes into it is a true late winner when there's 27 left to play. Anything after the 80th or 110th AET for me. Correct, Armando? What do you think, Charlie? I mean, it's definitely not a late winner. I think proportionately I might go a bit later in extra time than 10 minutes remaining. I think if you're doing it proportionately, then it's what, like three and a bit?
13:30Yeah, you're just five minutes into the second half of extra time.
13:33Charlie Eccleshare:Exactly, yeah. It's like one of my ongoing fascinations with extra time is when they add on, routinely seemingly at the end of a first half, like three or four minutes of stoppage time, which is like nine or 12 proportionately if it was a natural half. I can't believe that there's that much being needed to be added on at the end of a first half of extra time. Yeah, these days that feels pretty normal. Okay, so Dave, you're going 115 or later for a late winner. You've got to just reframe it as extra time, haven't you, Dave, basically? You can't really call it late at all. I saw something on social where it was like emphasising how many goals had been scored after a particular minute in this tournament.
14:12It was quite high. So I think it was like, let's say it was after the 85th minute. It was something like that. And I thought to myself, yeah, are you including goals scored in extra time there as late goals? The counter should reset. If it's not scored in normal time, as the guy said, Like, fine, if they're scored in the 115th or whatever, a stoppage time of extra time, fine. But you can't include just goals in the middle of extra time as late goals.
14:36Charlie Eccleshare:No, no. Early goal, if anything, in the 93rd. It really was. It was one of those where you're like, God, there's still a long time to go, isn't there? Even as somebody who wanted England to score, it still felt slightly unsatisfying for a goal to be scored in the 93rd minute. It's like, wow, we've got a lot of extra time to go through now. Next up, this came from Connor. He says, I need to hear that ITV panel reaction to Erling Haaland's substitution on the next Football Clichés Adjudication panel, please. Well, here it is. This is the last change. Well, here comes Strand Larson. So you can see they're throwing another man up.
15:07Oh, oh, oh. Well, oh, I think my oh reflects all the ohs around the country. Maybe he's going a little bit short, the great man. Still. Still. OK, let's go back to Lee and to Sam with no Haaland on the pitch. Oh, I think we all went oh. I think there was a whole country that went oh.
15:31Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know how I feel about this sort of universally accepted sound for this, Charlie, because, I mean, we didn't get a kind of Tom Cruise-ian wow. Wow. But nor did we get the Neville sound, which I guess he's not allowed to use on ITV. But I felt like it just about passed the threshold for it. Oh. Oh, they're in trouble here. But Neville actually, he introduced that oh, earlier in the season, there was a late winner, and he just went oh, oh, oh, oh.
16:03Charlie Eccleshare:That's so funny. That does not have the impact that it would normally do. His normal noise wouldn't fit that moment, though. I think if he went for the oh, that would have to be like, I don't know, Bellingham going off, Harry Kane going off. That's something bad happening. It's not ominous enough. Or if Haaland walked out in a sling or something. I have to say, Dave, it was one of those moments where I felt I did need to react. So when I saw the sudden close-up of Haaland descending into the dugout, I did turn to my nearest TV-watching neighbour and go, Oh, God. Wow. Wow. He's off. But it does still blow my mind.
16:41Charlie Eccleshare:I think we talked about it on the pod recently. It still blows my mind that players get taken off. stellar players get taken off with only sort of 10-15 minutes left of extra time you're gonna need him for a penalty but the managers obviously know better Stran Larsson obviously takes a good penalty who knows yeah and it seems like something that maybe is particularly it happens in international football maybe more than the club game I don't know maybe it's just we have a perception obviously Haaland is their best player yeah but sometimes you get like international managers will be like yeah well I'm gonna bring Stran Larsson on it's all planned and it's like yeah it's fine and they stay really cool about it Charlie but yeah I just you're you often just if it's your team you think oh no this is awful but I mean but allegedly he had a dead leg but yeah come on Erling stick it out yeah that's the thing I'm sure like where I was as up and down the country I was of is he injured he must be injured yeah he's gonna be injured they wouldn't take over Harlan horrifying moment all around but the the real standout media moment of this game was of course Thomas Tuchel versus Gabriel Clark let's have the abridged version of that little tete-a-tete Well, you've talked about your team's suffering before.
17:47Today, how do you sum up what the team have found? I didn't talk about suffering. I talked about, no, I never talked about suffering. It made life very, very difficult for us in the way we played, how we played. Sloppy, a lot of technical mistakes, not fast enough. Not repetitive enough. We were lucky today. Was that the occasion, getting to the players? No, no, it's just... Mentality thing? No, nothing. Oh, it's no mentality. Mentality. But if you're not happy with the players... This is pure mentality. How can you ask about mentality now? This is pure mentality. It's not about mentality. No, I mean when the players had the problem.
18:24Was that the mentality? What was it? There's no mentality problem. This is pure mentality. This is pure mentality. You can bottle it up and sell it. Absolutely. Yeah, so what is the problem for mentality? It's the quality of our games. That's it. It's nothing to do with mentality. You are in a World Cup semi-final. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will get better. We will get better. We need to get better. Now it's a celebration and now it's taking it all in. We have three days. We need everything. We need better performance. Well, enjoy it. Well done.
19:00Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, the little laughter from Riety at the rest of the end of it is really the icing on the cake because they enjoyed it. And as everybody should have enjoyed it, Charlie, because I didn't think it was that kind of adversarial, that sort of interview. But it's the, I mean, I think my personal highlight might be the really slightly over-the-top enjoy it from Gabriel Clarke at the end. Normally, I mean, that's the kind of usual sign-off in these situations from an interview. It's go on, enjoy it, go on, enjoy it. But this one, it was enjoy it! Weren't you? You're happy, aren't you, Thomas? I just, I think this combined, Dave, with the Jude Bellingham interview shortly afterwards where Bellingham was kind of presented with Tuchel's observations and he says maybe he doesn't know what it's like to play in these kinds of conditions, which was a great line, like so good.
19:45Charlie Eccleshare:I'm happy for this to be the maximum level of friction in the England camp, if there is any at all. But I've seen two distinct standpoints formed on this straight away. Either Gabriel Clarke is a shit stirrer or Gabriel Clarke is a fine journalist and can ask whatever questions he likes. Either way, I don't care where your standpoint is on this. Either way, I just want Gabriel Clark rattled. I want him as rattled as everybody else. I want him as rattled as people watching from home. I want him out of his comfort zone because then I know this World Cup is on. It was such a weird situation. And watching it back there, it really highlights just kind of how confusing that exchange was.
20:21They were just sort of talking at cross purposes. Like Gabriel's trying to kind of clarify what he meant. Tuchel's just not. He's just taken one word and absolutely run with it. As soon as he's heard that word mentality, the look, the scornful sort of withering look that he gave Gabriel Clark. And then Gabriel sort of tries to pull it back a little bit and it weirdly loses his composure for a man of such experience. He kind of does, he kind of tries to kind of, no, no, no, I didn't mean that. And then he just gets cut off. And then, yeah, the bit at the end, well, enjoy it. It's great. But then, yeah, the Bellingham thing, it's a bit of a storm in a teacup, isn't it, really?
20:59But it's sort of like Bellingham. You'd be disappointed if your best player and your manager weren't arguing with all that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but Tuchel's just like that, isn't he? Like, even the first bit where he said, oh, I've never said anything about suffering. I mean, I do, like, Dave, you're way closer to this, but I do feel like, given he's clearly, as we saw at Chelsea, like, a very difficult character, you know, extremely demanding, uncompromising, I do feel like international football might be kind of perfect for him. Like, you don't want to be around him all the time, but it's like a summer fling.
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21:26Sure. Yeah, like, I can deal with him in small doses and then get the fuck away from him for three months or something.
21:32Charlie Eccleshare:Just to think we've got two more games of this potentially. What he's going to be like after the semi-final, I've got no idea. More on that later. John Keogh writes in next day and says, My posh housemate who has absolutely no interest in football asked me earlier what I think about England then. How would you have answered something as vague as that to someone making polite small talk? I had no idea what detail to go into. I felt quite uncomfortable. I mean, this is a dilemma we've confronted on this podcast before. How do you kind of lower yourself, football ball knowledge-wise, to make a conversation like that stick.
22:03Charlie Eccleshare:And what do you think about England then? I mean, asking you something like that, I mean, you spend half your life doing it anyway. Send them a link to the pod. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, do I have the podcast for you, my friend? But I think... I think we'll win it. I think we'll win it. We have to make the decision, I think, straight away of like, yeah, do I go top line or do I sort of play to the gallery a bit and go, oh, not been great as it, but you know. Yeah. Or do you go, yeah, do you go really in depth? Go out of the right back situation. It's been a real problem for us. This is it. Obviously, you can't go granular with it, Charlie.
22:36Charlie Eccleshare:You have to stay high level. And it does feel like you have to go down the route of... They do make it quite difficult for themselves. You hate yourself for saying... Because you'll know you'll say some untruths in the midst of that generalisation. You know you'll say something like that. God, yeah. And you kind of just have to dilute it a bit, don't you? Well, I think this has also been... The World Cup must be the peak time. I got a from one of the school dads the other day, like, oh, I watched the game last night. And I think like that is, you know, that World Cup is peak for that. I think it was one of the England group games or something like that.
23:09And it's like, again, you're like, yeah, you know, it wasn't great, was it? But yeah, my mother-in-law asked me like what, you know, what I thought of England's chance for the World Cup. And I went with a kind of, you know, of the, well, I think we're probably the fourth best team in it. But at this stage, you know, semi-final, maybe we can do it. you know any everyone's got a chance kind of thing which again you know total top line vague meaningless stuff but you know we're probably both satisfied by it i am i managed to avoid this
23:35Charlie Eccleshare:sort of um level of discourse with my seven-year-old daughter in the morning after the england norway game day she insisted on watching the full 25 minute highlights of the game okay and got furious furious by the fact that the score got updated even though the goal got disallowed for Norway she was like what you said it was 2-1 the apple has not fallen far it's great I'm glad she's focusing on this sort of stuff Matt Connell writes in next challenge says are we at or have we already passed the they couldn't could they stage for England should this ever be applied to England despite the 60 years of hurt yeah I'm not sure if it is that they couldn't could they situation because it's been so heavily trailed yeah exactly it's not like oh this mad idea that england could win a world cup like it's been sort of a national obsession for 60 years i think after mexico game there was some they couldn't could they tweets like i saw that sentiment being being expressed whereas i think after norway it's a bit like oh yeah actually maybe maybe they can't they probably won't it's just not unthinkable enough like even from the start of this tournament it wasn't unthinkable i don't think it's reached that point of of incredulousness that's what i mean i'm trying to think of like like leicester in 2016, presumably there would have been a fair bit if they couldn't.
24:51Yeah, exactly. In about January, February as they're winning some games. Some big games.
24:58Charlie Eccleshare:I don't think I can quite stomach it for England but I did enjoy this from Matthew, Dave. He says what if England win the World Cup and then the John Lewis Christmas ad music is a breathy acoustic cover of Vindaloo? I'm just saying, is it worth it? Should we have a go? Should we try it? I'll do the na-na-na's and I want you two to jump in with the vindaloo as the kind of background in the final refrain. We're not doing the verse. Can I introduce you please to a lump of cheddar cheese? I don't think spoken word works as well, but we'll try the final few bars then. Na-na-na. Na-na.
25:49It would be strings, actually, wouldn't it? It'd be some violin doing the... Yeah. And we all like Vindaloo.
26:00Charlie Eccleshare:This is the thing. At what point does it stop being John Lewishead and start being like horror film, horror film trailer, and something screams out the darkness? Like that screaming Tuchel coming at you, but yeah. But yeah, the final bit would be... We're gonna score one more than you. England. I think it would just be a England. Yeah. Full stop. Yeah. Christmas. That wasn't as enjoyable as I thought it would be. It was actually horrible. Let's never do that again. Let's move on. Thanks to the diligence of three-time clichesman Sam Lee, here is Mark Pugach. Does it not underline sometimes in sport, not just in football, you know, you can talk tactics and inverted fullbacks and pivots, whatever you want.
26:55Sometimes it's just about heart and getting it done. That's what football is sometimes. We talk so many tactics, don't we, and inverted fullbacks and pivots and all this sort of stuff, Patrick. Sometimes it's about in here, isn't it? It's just heart. Yeah, it's right. We can talk tactics till the cows come home. What does it take to win a match of this magnitude? Let's talk about what's in here. Well, they've got the quality. They've certainly got the better players. That was superb from Sam. I saw that on Twitter. It was really good.
27:18Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, from a visual perspective, I mean, the disdain in his voice, Dave, is clear enough throughout the three sort of examples here. But my favourite one, I think it's the second one, where he really rolls his eyes at inverted fullbacks and pivots. He sort of throws his eyes to the studio ceiling. It's like, what have you got against it, poogs? Yeah, and I think inverted fullbacks and pivots are just about the right thing to target. He's not gone too far. He's not gone completely Dean Saunders, kind of we used to call it this. He could have chucked XG in there, Charlie. Or is that too sort of, does that spread the picture too wide a bit?
27:52Yeah, maybe he was wary of that sort of culture war. But the thing is with him, I just can't imagine Pugac ever talking about inverted fullbacks or pivots. So this idea, he says that, you know, we often talk about this, like, do you feel like you normally want to stay quite clear of that?
28:06Charlie Eccleshare:The annoying thing is, is he gets Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira to agree with him. But to be fair, they are both quite heart-centric players, to be fair. So I suppose you're preaching to the converted to a certain extent. But yeah, wonderfully observed and an absolute manna from heaven for us. That's it for part one. We'll be back very shortly.
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30:55Charlie Eccleshare:up the quarterfinals from our perspective some verbs please charlie for argentina versus switzerland was this a seeing off yeah it's one of those we've talked about it before the late third is a bit annoying because i think otherwise it could have been like an edged past or something but can you talk about an edged past when you've won by two goals but it was kind of a spiritually a 2-1 game yeah extra time as well dave um i mean seeing off doesn't necessarily say that they they sort of dispensed with them with any dominance. It just means they sort of finally got through and got rid of them. Yeah, I don't mind a seeing off.
31:30I mean, I think it doesn't quite tell the whole story, though. The red card is there as well. I don't think they... It wasn't a squeezing or an edging. Did they ride their luck a bit? Battle past, yeah. Because it wasn't like they... It was quite... It was pretty hard work. They did have to show some character.
31:46Charlie Eccleshare:Prevailed. They prevailed. How did England get past Norway, Dave? So we've had a squeezing against DR Congo. Did we do one for Mexico? What did we say for Mexico? I can't remember. I don't think we did it. I mean, you listed so many verbs that someone ended up sort of putting it to the soundtrack of Daft Punk in the end. Edging, squeezing. I think the way... Depends if you asked Tuchel or Bellingham. Yeah. I mean, you know, he would go for... I think Tuchel would go for like a squeak. No, it wasn't an edging. No. No way. We toiled. We tore him a dove there. We huffed and puffed. I'm dying. I'm literally huffing and puffing.
32:28Jude, Thomas has just been on. He said you huffed and puffed out there. Yeah, okay. Whatever. Maybe he's never huffed and puffed in Miami Heat.
32:35Charlie Eccleshare:He's never knocked at the door of a Norwegian defensive hall. Great Bellingham accent from all three of us there. Right, Spain, Belgium. A bit more straightforward, really, but it did require a late goal, a late winner. So that's an edging, Dave, I think. It was a late goal from a goalkeeping error, so it wasn't dominance as such. It wasn't footballing sort of pressure that told they needed a mistake. So I think an edging is okay. It didn't go to extra time, which clears things up a little bit. Yeah, yeah, I think that's fine. Okay. And then as for France-Morocco, Charlie, the most clear-cut of them all.
33:06Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, could we go for marched on here? Or eased past? Eased past is good. It was an easing. Morocco really didn't put up a hit. Yeah, it was comfortable. They should have won by more, really. Yeah, yeah. I like it. I mean, cruising in a World Cup quarterfinal feels like a bit of an insult. Yeah, one more goal would have been a cruise. I would have taken one more goal for a cruise. Absolutely. But as the kind of, I mean, this is almost deliberately so, Dave, given the seedings for this World Cup. These are absolute wall chart semifinals, aren't they? Because the sort of things that you look ahead and go, well, this could be the semifinals.
33:38Charlie Eccleshare:You look at them and go, oh, they're gorgeous, aren't they? They're going to be a great pair of games. The blockbuster. Yeah, but there will be someone who comes out of nowhere, of course. But no, they are the semifinals. Doing pre-tournament predictions on various websites and stuff, if I would get to these four teams in the semifinals, I would be like, ah, that feels too neat. One of them will fuck something up before. We can't have just the four seeds in the final. It felt a bit Wimbledon for me. It's too meaty, Charlie. It's too nice. Nice. Again, the top four seeds and Wimbledon's rare. Again, you would expect at least one.
34:16I mean, women's a whole other thing. There are loads of upsets there. But even when it's been more conventional and on the men's side, you still expect one's probably going to slip up. But this is great. I mean, I love these kinds of, you know, you get the payoff. Even if there aren't as many upsets as some people want, this is when it's so worth it for these kinds of semis.
34:33Charlie Eccleshare:I like the tidiness of it. If it comes at the expensive, you know, a bent tournament, then I'm all, I don't mind, I'll take it. I was thinking about the tennis thing the other day. I quite like it as an analogy. I quite like England as Andy Murray amongst the other three dominant tennis players. At some point, England, like Andy Murray, will do it through sheer grit and determination, even though Mbappe is Federer and Spain is Nadal or whatever. And if they lose their English, but if they win their British. Definitely. That's it. If you keep getting close enough, keep putting yourself in there.
35:06But yeah, it does definitely have that vibe of we are quite a distant fourth, I feel like. We're the good draw, it's a shame to say, isn't it? We're who all those three teams would have wanted to play.
35:16Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, not just based on your current voice alone, what are your energy levels for England versus Argentina, part something or other? I'm a bit concerned, actually, because I didn't have a big night last night. I haven't had the aircon on, so I don't know why my voice has absolutely gone to pieces this morning since waking up. Singing Vindaloo in your sleep. it doesn't bode well for the coming days but um i'll be up for it don't worry i'll get up for it um i mean it there's a fresh twist to this latest edition of england versus argentina charlie which is this is the fact this is leonard messi's first game against england ever which which dawned on me yesterday and i thought well this must be true so i i saw i did my diligent due diligence and i checked it and of course it's true but um the wrinkle of this that i didn't realize uh and And then subsequently Googled and found that loads of articles had, of course, mentioned it.
36:05Charlie Eccleshare:Was that Messi could have played in the epic 2005 friendly in Geneva. But he was suspended because he got sent off in his Argentina debut against Hungary. So he could have played in that game. That would have been so good. It would, but then maybe it would have been different. Maybe it was like as perfect as it is. I wouldn't want to tamper with it. Maybe it would have been slightly less chaotic. I'm amazed as well they didn't organise a money-spinning friendly at Wembley to mark some tenuous anniversary or something. Are we the only country that hasn't paid to have Messi come to our national stadium and present himself to our fans just so they can see him in the flesh?
36:40If we'd have won the Euros in 2021, would we have had a, what do they call it, finalissima? Of course we would.
36:47Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, that's true. So it's our own fault, actually. I have, of course, delved back into the full game of that 2005 encounter, Dave. And I literally, I skipped a completely random moment in the game just to see how it was building up towards the end. and Motti is going on about the Argentina number 10 shirt because no one's wearing it on the pitch at that time, I don't think. And he says, you know, and Argentina have left this shirt vacant because, of course, Diego Maradona, who they're still very obsessed with in Argentina and think, well, yeah, there's no mention of Messi here. There's no mention of the new incumbent for this shirt.
37:18Charlie Eccleshare:So it's pre-Messi, which is great. That's the last time we played them, which is just utterly mad. Yeah, that is crazy. I think, I feel like we should, once again, enjoy that last minute of Motti in this game. Ow! Do zippy. Rooney! Can he lose at the last? Owens there again. Beckham! Oh, the goalkeeper saved it. Crouch! Oh, goodness. I thought Beckham had got the winner. The winner. I can't believe that. He did everything right. Wayne Rooney picked the ball up. Now Argentina on the attack. Owens put through by Saviola and it's Cruz! No penalty. Referee waves it away. Cruz was looking for one. What a climax in the first minute of stoppage time now.
38:05Rooney for England.
38:09Joe Cole.
38:12Crouch comes in far side, but then... Oh! Then we've got it! Even have scored again, it's Michael Owen. It's 3-2. Owen. Oh! Owen, two in a matter of minutes. What an amazing finish in Geneva. michael owen there again and argentina are deflated they're standing around looking at each other and they don't know where the lead has gone and they don't know where the match has gone
38:39Charlie Eccleshare:but it's gone to england a completely inconsequential game but it's so good to listen back to it's so crazy like because i remember it feeling fairly meaningful like why is he going so Did everyone feel this way? It was just a great finish to the game. Yeah, it was such a mad game, but you wouldn't do that now, would you? And there'd be so much piss-taking of like, well done, lads, you won a friendly sort of thing. But it's so great and just like, there's such an innocence to him going mad that we've won a friendly in Geneva against Argentina who are probably like experimenting with their team and their formation and stuff.
39:15So many great details. Like the penalty they should get. Ferdinand's pass is unreal. Oh, I love it. It's so good in the build-up. And they also, in that Golden Generation documentary, they don't talk about this game, but they should, because this was the sort of thing that made you think, maybe it is going to be our year. Like, look, we've got so many great players, and we're putting it together.
39:35Charlie Eccleshare:There are so many good notes in that commentary, but one of the sort of the dark horses to be the favourite is when he summons everything he's got for Beckham rising for that header. Oh, Beckham! But he times it just as Beckham leaps, and even on Rewind, you're thinking, Beckham is going to do this. He's timed his jump so well with his head out. He doesn't. It's so good. Of course, they brought out a DVD of it, Dave. England 3 Argentina 2 with the tagline, the perfect World Cup boost. All the incredible action. It was in November, wasn't it? Yeah. So perfect timing. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely amazing.
40:11Just before that Everton 2006 amazing winter DVD came out.
40:16Charlie Eccleshare:Wow. Yeah. But of course, you know, and this does, as you say, Charlie, encapsulate the golden generation this is the sort of way that people wanted england to win games against big opposition and that's how how we always envisioned the x years of hurt being ended a proper england for netherlands one type performance which actually in hindsight actually wasn't that dominant but still a a a roy of the rovers style england performance to win games you know one after another to go and win the tournament but of course charlie this is not how this tournament's happening we're not going to have that performance we're not going to beat Argentina 3-0 or 3-1 and we're not going to win the final with some, you know, Gerrard 35-yarder.
40:56Charlie Eccleshare:It's going to be super grindy and this is just not how we were brought up to envisage an England World Cup win. No, I mean, there's that mad stat, isn't there, of how few World Cup winning nations we've beaten at World Cups or certainly in knockout games. It's basically like it's never happened. So this is a sort of like, yeah, you're absolutely right. This is the dream. This is, and like I've said before, this is the most pro-Evo-like game. It's just not real. There's something so mad about it. So I guess that's why we're still clinging on to it. On the back of that stat, Dave, that we just don't beat big, big countries at World Cups, I have to say, you know, and based on what you said earlier about this, World Cups being strung out a bit more because of the extra games, I don't think I want another quarterfinal against the Denmark again.
41:34Charlie Eccleshare:I can't handle another one. I need them to win this tournament on the basis of that. I can't handle another sluggy quarterfinal. I know. Yeah. And like it happens more in the heroes. Yeah, that's why I wanted Argentina. Imagine if we were playing Switzerland in the same... You know it would be real. White versus red for the 48th time in this tournament. I don't want it. I don't want it at all. Fed up with watching white versus red. James Moore had a great observation for this day. He says it's absolutely nailed on that a Premier League player becomes a national hate figure after this game. Emi Martinez and Christian Romero clearly out in front.
42:07Charlie Eccleshare:Enzo Fernandes and Lissandro Martinez possible. I think Lissandro Martinez should be the favourite here because it's not that he's, obviously he's not an outwardly aggressive character compared to some of the others, but he has that kind of straight-faced psychopath aspect to him. I think he'll have a big say in this. Also, completely glossed over, I don't think anyone's mentioned this, he nearly scored an absolutely ridiculous goal against Switzerland, a scissor kick from a corner. Imagine if that had gone in. I wouldn't look forward to this game at all if that had gone in. He's got a goal like that in his locker, hasn't he?
42:40Yeah, he's mad. For a defender. The goal he scored, he scored against Cape Verde, He was quite a good goal as well for a centre-back. He scored one against Liverpool. Yeah, Anfield for United.
42:49Charlie Eccleshare:He's a ridiculous player that only could play for Argentina, I think. You're never going to get him for England. Wouldn't be trusted. We want big Dan Byrne. Who's going to be the Diego Simeone figure? Well, that's the thing. I think if you're thinking about a national hate figure, the thing that we most hate, like with Simeone or Cristiano Ronaldo, is like deceptiveness, skullduggery, cheating. And Emi Martinez is surely the guy who will go out and pretend he's been elbowed and he hasn't or something like that. We hate that way more than thuggery, which is basically, that's how Christian Romero is perceived.
43:20Charlie Eccleshare:I think you need the extra turn of the screw based on everything that England have gone through in tournaments past. Martinez will do something skullduggery-y, like, I don't know, scuff up a penalty spot or something, but then he'll do something footballistically great, which will just rub salt in the wound. So he'll save a penalty and then celebrate it manically and then we'll hate him on the basis of that as well as everything else that he'd done before that. It does feel like penalty shootout could be incoming for this one, I think. Yeah, I think we're very much due one, aren't we? In terms of a national hate figure, I mean, I think we've definitely moved on beyond the era of like the treatment that Bex got in 98 with all that.
43:58And even obviously, quite rightly, we've realised that the abuse, the levels of abuse that the players you missed in 2021 just was just unacceptable. but there is still the potential for an England player to not be the hate figure but for to be the player who it all crumbles down around and I do I do fear that if we go to penalties we are going to see 119th minute appearance from from Ivan Tony and he will miss a penalty at some stage
44:27Charlie Eccleshare:won't he yes that's my big fear for this tournament someone being brought in for such an obvious purpose and then him not fulfilling that purpose as for um as for uh another aspect of england's potential pitfalls this idea that argentina are going to be all out to wind up jude bellingham charlie the thing is about that is jude bellingham is so performative in pretty much everything you do i think he'll ride it he'll be he'll be so i'm not getting wound up by these argentinians if anything he'll get distracted by that and not actually get wound up yeah take a leaf out of mbappe's book yeah who you get against paraguay it's a great approach i mean harland is the same to it, just smile it off.
45:04Charlie Eccleshare:And I think that's a really elite mentality. Just laugh it off. It doesn't matter. I think it's really good. Let's move on. I really love this. It came from Will Rayner. He says, That Gary Lineker Netflix show is incredible. One day without football, and we get Joe Cole saying stuff like this. You just know everything about everything in history. Surely. But Joe's been giving me grief about the pyramids. Yeah, I'm not having the pyramids. I'm coming on the show. The pyramids or what? No, not the football pit. The real pyramids. Is there anything more Joe Cole, Dave, than I'm not having the pyramids.
45:34To Dominic Sandbrook.
45:36Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. And Maya Jammer in the middle. My jammer's just sat there. I'm not having the pyramids for me. Absolutely top, top architecture. Oh, yeah. He goes on to expound several conspiracy theories about the pyramids, which are highly entertaining and Sandbrook entertains them very nicely. Next up, more domestic matters, but World Cup tinged. Johan Manzambi, who is very much at the forefront, Charlie, of the World Cup shop window. I think it's fair to say was going to go to Newcastle but Aston Villa have hijacked the deal because of course Johan Manzambi is incredibly Aston Villa but I thought it was all nailed on because as Keith Downey of Sky Sports tweeted Newcastle had a verbal framework in place for the transfer of Johan Manzambi if anything for once you'd want it to be concrete framework yeah god imagine their indignance we had a verbal framework and everything verbal framework what is a verbal framework Dave what does it look like I'm thinking 3D here, but I don't know how it works.
46:32Charlie Eccleshare:I can't get my head around that. A verbal framework. It's like the Beach Boys. So it's not a verbal agreement. It's a... To outline, I guess. Yeah, exactly. They've spoken about what the deal will look like. Right. But haven't actually agreed to do it. That's what they've got to, I guess. Right. If we do this, should we do it like this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God. But then after the quarterfinal between Argentina and Switzerland, Dave, Emi Martinez sort of embraced Manzambi and very clearly mouthed, you coming to Villa? And Manzambi sort of clearly sort of responded in the affirmative. And it was so great to see a real clear cut.
47:09Charlie Eccleshare:It wasn't any sort of hint of sort of ambiguity about the exchange, no hands over mouths, anything like that. He just said, you coming to Villa? And pointed at himself. And Manzambi went, eh, basically. Look, look, there's a verbal framework in place with other clubs. I can't talk about it at the moment. He's now got a verbal framework with Emi Martinez. really good on that vein I want to finish with this from Stephen Arbuckle it's from the Rangers Review who are all things Rangers of course and with the news that former Rangers kit man Jim McAllister is returning to the club to work under Derek McInnes Rangers Review understands McAllister's held positive talks with the Ibrox hierarchy for a kit man still got to do it yeah but to be fair still got to hold those talks to be fair Charlie it does seem ridiculous but he was actually he was actually sacked for breach of contract a few years ago and sued Rangers for unfair dismissal and we've got 13 grand.
47:56Charlie Eccleshare:So maybe some positive talks were actually required in this case. Yeah, you'd imagine that they, you know, they might not have gone in in the most positive frame of mind. Yeah. Anyway, on that verbal framework, thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you. Thanks to you, David Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back after the semifinals. See you then.
From the publisher
Adam Hurrey is joined on the Adjudication Panel by Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker. On the agenda: a cultural review of the montage-resistant grind of England 2 Norway 1, Thomas Tuchel vs Gabriel Clarke, the prospect of Vindaloo as the soundtrack to this year's John Lewis Christmas advert, ITV's Mark Pougatch talks tactics, revisiting England 3 Argentina 2 (2005), Joe Cole’s stance on the pyramids of Egypt, and kit-man transfer news.
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