”Absolute wimp", Arsenal's pre-ignited quadruple & a Doha denouement

9:16Charlie Eccleshare:Suddenly that feels vaguely portentous. Yeah. Yeah, the latest one was just a shot of a Mallorcan vista with a little heart emoji right in the middle of the image. Somewhere that won't let me down.

9:29David Walker:Tensions have been turned. So you're going to have the rest of the season by the looks of it, according to your reporting. Adam do you think they'll go do you think they'll just sort of be a dignified last day of the season last day of the Premier League season or maybe the Champions League final and that's that do you think they'll get all the gang in you know McAteer and will we see Nigel De Jong come out one more time yeah what does this mean

9:52Adam Hurrey:for McAteer

9:54David Walker:I think they'll be granted

9:55Charlie Eccleshare:a decent fair way but why a pleading why from Jason McAteer yeah I think you'll be okay Jason

10:02Adam Hurrey:and here are our best bits Sandy.

10:04Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, they'll be potentially a best bit. Don't worry. If they don't do the best bits, we will. So don't worry, lads. You'll get the send-off that you somewhat deserve. 13 years in Qatar, though, Charlie. That's a stint. That is a stint.

10:19Adam Hurrey:That is a serious stint, yeah. How many weeks was Partridge at the Travel Tavern? I mean, it's sort of vaguely equivalent to that.

10:27Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, puts it in perspective. Yeah, maybe there's only so many Doha brunches one man can handle. Time to move on. But yeah, there's the big news. So let's move on to the midweek adjudication panel. Let's kick off. With Arsenal versus Chelsea in the Carabao Cup semi-final second leg, it was a tactical minefield for Liam Rosina. But Paul Merson summed it all up perfectly.

10:53David Walker:This is not a bottom of bottom four, bottom five team. They've just come there. I mean, he's crying. I mean, he should be crying because they've never had a go. I mean it's I'm lost for words I cannot believe what happened they've just gone out with an absolute wimp in the semi-final of a big competition

11:12Charlie Eccleshare:Charlie how good is absolute wimp

11:15Adam Hurrey:it's so good it sort of does it sort of does make some sense in a really roundabout way it's like they've been a wimp that's what he's getting at

11:24Charlie Eccleshare:Dave I really want this to be just yet another football abbreviation that we're not privy to because we're not amongst the play of fraternity but absolute wimp Could be a shortening. You never know. Yeah, it sort of works. Come what wimp. Charlie, though, did Chelsea go out with a wimper? Because I can see the logic. But before the game, all the pundits were saying they've got to stay in the game. Make this place nervous. The anxiety is going to creep in. Isn't that not what the game plan was designed to do? So I'm a little bit confused about what was expected of them.

11:50Adam Hurrey:It was so funny because it's one of these so massively results-based analysis things that if Chelsea had one, they were basically like a deflected free kick away from it being a tactical masterclass for Residia. Like it really like, and you could, they were so, there was a kind of a willingness for that to happen because he'd said, and he'd almost explained it in his pregame, hadn't he? But he sort of said, this is the plan. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's such a fine line. But then if you don't, I guess the reason you could say it's a whimper is that they didn't really keep their end of the bargain.

12:22Adam Hurrey:Like, yes, they stayed in the game, but there was never a kind of really going for it, or at least not in a way that led to actually creating chances or getting close.

12:30Charlie Eccleshare:Exactly. We could talk about, you know, the nuances of game plans all we like, Dave. But you could quantify going out with a whimper as, you know, this is what they had to do. And this is how hard they knocked on the door to achieve it. So it could come down to sort of number of shots on target or just how much pressure they sort of inflicted on Arsenal.

12:50David Walker:Yeah, I mean, I think a whimper, as you say, Charlie, it's not just about the result. There does have to be some qualitative assessment of the whimper.

12:59Charlie Eccleshare:14 shots, but only two of them on target. So I don't know where I stand on the whimperness of it.

13:04Adam Hurrey:I think it's a vibe though, isn't it? Like if it really felt like a sort of kitchen sink job towards the end, I don't think it ever quite did, which is why it sort of just about meets the whimper threshold.

13:16David Walker:Spurs' Champions League final against Liverpool was a whimper. I know there was an early penalty, right? But they didn't really have any chances, did they? It was just like such a nothing compared to the highs and the drama of the semi-final. And they just conceded an early goal and it was just like, oh, really?

13:32Adam Hurrey:Though I put that more in the category of never got going, which is a slightly different thing.

13:37Charlie Eccleshare:You think they could be mutually exclusive?

13:40Adam Hurrey:I think there's a slight difference. Like never got going is just like, it wasn't that they didn't try necessarily. It was just it never really happened for them.

13:47Charlie Eccleshare:Right.

13:48Adam Hurrey:Whereas a whimper is like a real lack of intent.

13:50Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Yeah, we definitely know it when we see it. Yeah, love absolute wimp. But on a slightly similar note, here's Steve Bruce on Five Live talking about Casemiro as he subbed off against Fulham to a standing ovation at Old Trafford at the weekend.

14:03David Walker:But look at this, because as we said, Steve, we know final season for him at Old Trafford. Lovely reception as he comes off, replaced by Ugarte.

14:10Charlie Eccleshare:He's a marvellous footballer and he's a quality player on the ball. Of course, maybe he hasn't got the legs that he used to have and he's plumb. We all understand that. It should be the word. I'm bored of pomp. I want it to be plomb from now on. It is absolute plomb. It works.

14:29David Walker:Yeah, it's amazing how these things happen. Steve Bruce's recent foray into the broadcast world is good news for us. He's going to be on TalkSport, I think, isn't he, for a little bit. They announced that recently and popping up here and there. Yeah, I'm sure there'll be more to come.

14:43Charlie Eccleshare:And he's going to be dedicated to this now, Charlie, because I think he's finished with management. And I think it's good news for Bruce that he's finished with management because the whole thing is just too intense. for him now. But I think he's a good pundit because he's got a lovely voice, first of all. I think he's good on the radio. It's a soothing thing to listen to on a Sunday afternoon. I feel like this could be a good lease of life for him.

15:02Adam Hurrey:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's welcome him.

15:05Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, definitely. Right, let's go back to the Emirates, though. This came from Jacob. Here is Lee Dixon on Mark Cucurella. He knew what he was doing. He knew he was running into him and stopping him. Mind you, he could get sent off in a telephone box on his own, Cucurella, couldn't he? Now, it seems to me, Charlie, to be a collision of two footballing sentiments. It's the old Alex Ferguson quote about Dennis Wise being able to start a row in an empty house. And then the sort of classic proverbial reference to a telephone box in football. You couldn't tackle him in a phone box, that sort of thing.

15:35Charlie Eccleshare:But how does that help? The sending off scenario. The phone box doesn't add or detract from the situation at all.

15:42Adam Hurrey:I think we spoke about that before, didn't we? The telephone box and what is the archetypal? Yeah, and what is it that he could... He could nutmeg you in a phone box. or you couldn't get the ball off him in a phone call. Right, okay, right, yeah, yeah. I've never heard that one before. Really? I think that was what it was, yeah, about getting the ball off. Because, like, their touch is so good. It's quite hard.

16:01David Walker:There's not much space. Like, I mean, it's easy to... It's like when you're in the corner of the power league. Yeah, yeah.

16:07Adam Hurrey:God, that is the absolute worst.

16:09David Walker:Isn't it like starting a row, having a row in a telephone box with yourself or whatever, is that, like, the classic non-footballing sentiment? But, like, being sent off in a telephone box, because I think that's where Dixon's coming from. Like being sent off in a telephone box on your own. You can do plenty of things on the football pitch that would get you sent off that don't involve any other players. As you say, the telephone box is immaterial. When were you last in a phone box, Dave? That's a great question. God knows. A long time ago. I don't think I've even... More likely in like some sort of novelty one, a fucking party or something.

16:41Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, right. Yeah, like a big red one. Oh, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. Yeah, we should rule that out of the equation, really. but Arsenal have progressed to the Carabao Cup final Charlie and it makes me wonder now are we beyond the whisper it stage for their quadruple hopes or is that exactly where we are

16:58Adam Hurrey:I think it's still a bit whisper it because this this win is the first time you can talk about it really okay I think it's I think it's a little too abstract before I still think it is whisper it because it's like because it's now at the stage like it is it is a possibility and you could make the case of like they are they're kind of the favourites in all four competitions. Yeah. But it's still such a ludicrous thing to suggest because it's never been done and we're only in February. I think it is still at the whisper it stage.

17:26Charlie Eccleshare:After prevailing in a grisly physical ballet with Chelsea, Arsenal's season has now reached a point of pre-ignition. Pre-ignition is a great word to use here, Dave, because it emphasises the modern narrative role of the League Cup final, which is the, you know, things are happening here for this team this season.

17:41David Walker:It has performed that function, hasn't it, in the past. But I'm quite fatigued by Arsenal. at the moment on their behalf. And God knows what it must be like to be a fan. But it's like every game, the pendulum swings from one to another. It wasn't literally, what, just over a week ago, it was all falling apart. And they had a few bad results, lost to Man United. Then a week later, people are talking about, oh, they're going to win all four. They're just looking so imperious. They've won the Champions League group stage, the top of the pile, won eight games in a row. and they have this bad, they have this sort of ball draw and everyone's like, oh, they're going to be such a terrible team.

18:21David Walker:One of the worst teams ever to win it. But then the weekend, they won 4-0. And it was like, it's just every game, there's like some massive conclusion is drawn about their season.

18:29Adam Hurrey:I know. I do think it was amazing that after City dropped points this weekend, people were like, well, Arsenal are going to win the league, aren't they? It was like, literally a week ago, it was, they're falling apart and City are going to put one of their runs together. It was like, make up your minds. Like, what do you think of this City team? Like, do you think they're this like all conquering giant that will get it together or do you not like surely one

18:49Charlie Eccleshare:draw at spurs doesn't change all that yeah we were talking the other day dave about um the uh perennial concept of man city putting a run together could they put a run together in the carabao they've got two games but technically left if they proceed that's a run they could put a run together in the carabao and deny arsenal their carabao dream well yeah exactly yeah uh 33 to one with the bookies arsenal's quadruple which i think you know in in bookie talk is a bit whisper it actually so yeah so then that does actually telly um not all rosy for arsenal though their pitch was looking a little bit ropey i thought charlie players slipping around all over the place and um i realized that it's 11 years now since arsenal last one groundsman of the year in the premier league wow that's a long run yeah that really is because presumably i mean they were just hoovering up before then i i sort of i really do associate the emirates and and sort of highbury as well as being really, really well-kept turf.

19:45Charlie Eccleshare:The carpet. Yeah. And Arsenal's groundsman around that time was Paul Burgess. And he was the start of this golden generation of British groundsmen. And Bournemouth's groundsman was snapped up by Atletico Madrid. Burgess went to Real Madrid. Tony Stones, who was looking after Bowling Greens in Barnsley, became head groundsman at Wembley. FIFA signed a Scotsman called Alan Ferguson, who had been at Ipswich, and he became their in-house senior pitch manager. What a great golden generation it was. But Arsenal have faded away, Dave. In the meantime, since they'd won it, Watford have won it. Get in.

20:19Charlie Eccleshare:Leicester have won it. Yeah. What was Watford's pitch like in 2017-18? Do you remember? Really good.

20:26David Walker:Pretty green, was it? Yeah, yeah. It's really nice. Still is. I noticed that they didn't award them an award in the 1920 season. Why? Yeah, that seems strange. They had to work harder to keep the pitch in good shape over those months where there's been no... Not enough football on it, though, I guess.

20:41Adam Hurrey:But there was. There was like almost all of... Crammed in. The vast majority of that season was still played.

20:48David Walker:They didn't let the pitches become overgrown, did they? In all those months off. They were in there. They had the mowers on probably every day still. We should have been clapping for them.

20:57Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, exactly. They were key workers. The winners last season were West Ham. I mean, that's bollocks. It's easy to be a groundsman at West Ham. The air flow, plenty of sunlight. There's no big shadows on the pitch. Piece of piss. Maybe not. Paul Burgess, by the way, he's certainly showing no signs of slowing down. He is now Chelsea's Director of Global Sports Surfaces and Landscaping. What a job title. Wow. Fair play.

21:19David Walker:That suggests that they're branching out. Have they got an ice hockey pitch somewhere? A basketball court? A cricket pitch?

21:26Charlie Eccleshare:Global Sports Surfaces. All surfaces. Yeah. All right, here we go. Right, Ali Darlow writes in next, Dave, and says, Sky Sports reporter has just described Calvin Phillips as the England international. His last cap was November 2023. when should he have that title taken away this is a really good case study this we've spoken about it before about when you become a former england international would you describe him as such now it feels very unlikely that he's gonna gonna make the plane doesn't it that's true like he probably won't play for england again but that's not necessarily the entire equation is it no and

21:57David Walker:it's sort of he himself do you think like this is i mean he probably obviously he's probably accepting his his reality but you do sometimes hear players ask about this and like welbeck for example hasn't played for England for a long time now but he's still in the frame because of his good form and they never quite give up with the ghost do they that's a good point Welbeck

22:14Charlie Eccleshare:obviously this could complicate matters as well Charlie because he could be one of a rare group of players who could be described as a former England international and then play for England

22:23Adam Hurrey:again yeah I feel like Phillips is just about recently enough and once this tournament's done

22:29David Walker:once another tournament cycle is maybe that's it yeah I'd say so he's not in the Premier League either no exactly i think leaving the premier league is kind of to go down it's not like maybe like eric dyer is another good one actually yeah still playing in in good teams in a good league

22:45Adam Hurrey:but yeah that definitely adds to it i agree god he's 30 as well probably not gonna happen is it

22:49Charlie Eccleshare:no definitely not but okay that's it officially we can call him the former england international from july onwards harry writes in next charlie and he was talking about his um newcastle group chat on whatsapp and someone said why haven't we looked at that morgan gibbs white he's outstanding would fit in so well and harry says surely he can't be called that player x it's surely reserved for players a lot more unknown like lower league younger players or players from foreign leagues so my question to you is at what point do you stop prefixing a player's name with that and it is a weird device isn't it yeah it sort of suggests some distance between you and your knowledge of

23:23Adam Hurrey:that player yeah it's a really specific thing yeah we should get that so and so in from there Yeah, I think there has to be a sense that they're unfashionable or they're less heralded or that it would be a slightly surprising move. Yeah, I think Morgan Gibbs White is too kind of prominent. Yeah. I'm trying to think who would be a kind of...

23:42David Walker:I think it's also... Who would fit that bill. It could give you a bit of cover. I mean, not necessarily foreign, but maybe it helps if they're foreign and you're not sure of their first name. And you can go, oh, we can get that Buena Notte in.

23:55Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Dave, to advance on Charlie's theory that it's unfashionable players, I think it can be emerging players, players who are emerging onto the mainstream radar a little bit. So breakthrough players in the Premier League, probably foreigners as well, who have come from a different league. And you don't, I don't know, it's a bit like just not wanting to look too knowledgeable, which is a strange kind of impulse, I guess. But it just adds that sort of layer of, it's a bit like pretending you don't know like a band's name, that you don't want to look too uncool if you do know who they are.

24:29Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know if it is knowing. Olivia, what's her name?

24:33David Walker:It's almost like we did the thing recently where we were saying, looking at people using the word what. He's got what? 18, 19 goals this season. And it's the same sort of thing, isn't it? it's if you're there you're not 100 % certain of something yeah and you're sort of you're skirting around it but you know oh forrest they've got that um you know they've got that

24:50Adam Hurrey:milenkovich haven't they like he's good would what about like if you're if you're like a really elite club if you're city or someone like we should get that anderson in from forrest would he qualify yeah i do like that yeah because he's not like he's obviously well known but he's not massively high profile and you know yeah i don't think there's like there wouldn't be an assumption that everyone sort of really knows him well, but everyone would kind of know him well enough to be like, yeah, yeah, he's a good player.

25:16Charlie Eccleshare:Well, there's some interesting variables in that specific example then, because Elliot Anderson, to me, is a bit of a strange one because whilst he's an emerging force in English football and he's being touted as being, you know, a really big feature of England's national team for the next few years, I think a lot of football fans probably wouldn't recognise him if they saw him in the street. Like, he is occupying a strange point. So I think he fits really nicely in the that Elliot Anderson situation.

25:37David Walker:Yeah. I could imagine a conversation between two sort of casual England watchers, England fans in a pub, right? As we build up to the tournament, and they'll be going through, right, who's your team? Who are you going to pick when you're out there in the first game? And somebody might be saying, well, you'd have Rice and probably Bellingham next to Rice. And then the other guy goes, nah, he's playing that Anderson actually now.

26:01Adam Hurrey:Or it could be that Wharton. Get that Wharton in from Crystal Palace. Wharton definitely works.

26:06Charlie Eccleshare:So yeah, this is it. You've got to be a source, you know an emerging situation i've consulted the top 10 players in who scored ratings this season uh lamin yamal is number one bruno fernandez is number 10 so these are the sorts of players you'd see in there harry kane is number two kylian mbappe is number three the only player in this top 10 who i think could qualify for that is nico paz of como we need to go and get that nico paz i don't think he meets the bar that nicko who is he yeah it's that man nicko paz yeah i don't

26:41Adam Hurrey:think he's well known enough to like to trust me you wait you wait 18 months you'll be saying that

26:46Charlie Eccleshare:nicko paz for sure this is great the subtlety of this is sensational because you know in that whatsapp group dave the person who's using it won't be using it deliberately and that's the beauty of it it's it's subtle but it feels right to them to say it you know that's morgan gibbs white so that's their parameters but to us it feels jarring but those are the margins yeah nice

27:04Adam Hurrey:yeah i remember when arsenal were perennially linked with sort of toughs english center backs because they can really defend there was a lot of that going around i wish you know they should be getting in that liam ridgewell yeah proper defender like you know those sort of you know anyone who sort of seemed quite tough and like defending would would be and that works as well

27:23Charlie Eccleshare:because it's you know they're looking down to do a job yeah exactly that's close but yeah yeah Yeah, that's that distance. Again, I like it. Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands for Virtual Private Network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while travelling. I got this message from Joe Ellica. He says, I'm currently doing a bit of travelling in and around Asia, and I've recently checked into a hotel on the Malaysian island Langkawi.

27:58Charlie Eccleshare:In the hotel reception area, I instantly clocked footballers on the TV, but having done some quick time zone-based mental maths, I realised it must be a repeat of an old game and thought nothing of it. The next day, as I walked through the reception for breakfast, I saw that the game was on again, and having vaguely remembered the kits, came to the conclusion it was the same game they'd showed yesterday. I watched a couple of minutes of this game and soon figured out it was the 2024 Community Shield game between Man City and Man United. Late that evening, I once again walked through reception and noticed the same game was still on, despite it being hours later.

28:27Charlie Eccleshare:I concluded they must be showing this game on the screen indefinitely, like some kind of footballing purgatory. So I made a note to check the next morning to see if it was the case. And it was. As baffling as this game selection is, it got me thinking, which one game would you pick to be put on perpetually in a hotel lobby? What a question. I mean, assuming a neutral basis here, what kind of game would you want? It would need to be goal-filled, really.

28:51Adam Hurrey:Liverpool, Newcastle, 96. Easy to reach for that, though.

28:54David Walker:but let's think of the function of this thing. You don't want there to be massive crowds of people gathering around this TV every day to watch this game. It's got to be good enough for people to sort of go, oh, okay. It has to sort of blend into the background, like the music you would have on.

29:12Adam Hurrey:Like Muzak.

29:13David Walker:You don't want to be playing bangers in the hotel lobby. You've got to play stuff to the ambience.

29:17Charlie Eccleshare:It's got to be a certain way. What about Blackburn 3, Chelsea 4 from September 1998, the Sky Sports Gold Classic? it served its time on Sky Sports it was played all the time not in full though crucially I think I could absorb encounter England-Argentina 2005 yeah the friendly

29:36Adam Hurrey:but again I think that would that would be a real sort of cause a real roadblock with everyone stopping to watch what about

29:44David Walker:Man City-Liverpool from 2018-19 a great game

29:48Charlie Eccleshare:I would actually like to watch that in full again that was the last time I just thought this is just peak like genuinely really superb. It takes a lot for me to think that, but there you go. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches, and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee, and the link is also in the podcast description if you need it. We'll be back very shortly.

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31:48Adam Hurrey:Got your happy price.

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32:02Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. A reminder that you can sign up for Dreamland at dreamland.footballcliches.com. For£5.99 a month, you'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes, plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show. We're recording episode 17 next week. It's the second instalment of our slightly too earnest-sounding Voices of Football series. Last time we did Martin Tyler, Glenn Hoddle and Martin Keown. Three more on the way next week. Could do Merce this time. Could do Merce, couldn't we? Could do, yeah. Topical, yeah. Yeah, let's gather together everything we've said about Merce.

32:39Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, if that sounds interesting to you, dreamland.footballcliches.com. Right, I've had this in our Google Doc for so long, almost a year actually, and I've been waiting for an opportunity to use it. It was always going to be a midweek adjudication panel fodder as well. I got an email from Hannes Reid, a top tier cliches contributor over the months as well. And he and his friend Ryan McMeneman have taken it upon themselves to write a 1 ,500-word thesis titled, What Constitutes a Finish in Football? A fascinating run-through of when the word finish should be used for various types of goal. It was inspired by Omar Marmoush's stunning goal for Man City against Bournemouth, which was described in one tweet as, What a finish this is.

33:24Charlie Eccleshare:And our immediate question, says Hannes Reid, is, is it a finish? We would say no. So what is a finish? So they've gone through. Those are categories and scenarios to describe where the finish could be used. So we begin inside the box, Charlie. Goals that are very simple are not finishes. This almost exclusively includes open goals like David Nugent versus Andorra, for example. Anything not too wide and in the six-yard box can vary. Sharing him in the 99 Champions League final is because it required him to very deliberately spin and help the ball on its way but Solskjaer is not because he just stuck a leg out good start I think yeah yeah that makes sense but why why wouldn't Solskjaer's be a finish for you it's not an all-round movement to score a goal I don't think it's instinctive but you do have an instinctive finish though often hear that don't you yeah it's not instinctive finish it's not like it's not it's like it's almost like it's not a canonical type of finish literally did to stick a boot out there isn't anything recognizable about it as an attempt on goal.

34:24David Walker:I agree on the overarching point of the two. Sheringham's, well, Sheringham's wasn't actually a particularly good finish. It was a scuffed finish, really. But still more finishy than Solskjaer's, which was a little toe-poke, little just stuck the leg out at the right moment.

34:39Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I wouldn't describe it as a finish. I mean, you could have clever finishes. You could have improvised finishes. But yeah, I feel like there has to be extra context to the whole movement. Let's move outside the box now, Dave. They say there is a distinction between 20-yard drills, which are often deliberate in the sense that they are usually aimed at the side where the pass came from, or the body is very obviously shaped to go one way, and shots from any further, which are often just leathered. Steven Gerrard against Olympiacos 2004 at Anfield is a finish because he opens up his body to aim for the far corner from 20 yards.

35:09Charlie Eccleshare:Gerrard against West Ham 2006 in the FA Cup final is not a finish. He hits it as hard as he can from 35 yards. I mean, distance is definitely a huge factor in a finish. I think anything beyond 22-23 is definitely not a finish. I mean, apart from some absurd situations where, I don't know, you were running through, the goalkeeper was at the other end from a corner or something.

35:29Adam Hurrey:Yeah, I'm not sure I'd say that Gerrard won. I don't know if that Gerrard won against Olympiacos is a finish. It's too sort of spectacular for me. A hit, famously. Yeah. A finish underplays it a little bit. I think... What a finish, son! Yeah, I don't like... That's not a finish.

35:45Charlie Eccleshare:It suggests it's sort of a chance and as though... Dave, if he'd received the ball, opened up his body and steered it into the bottom corner against Olympiacos, would you be more happy with that as a finish? Because it was inside the box. Well, just outside, sorry.

35:57David Walker:What we're hitting on here is essentially how deliberate something is. Yeah. And you could argue that any long range strike, there's an element of I'm just going to hit this and see what happens about it. Yeah, they are probably still aiming to score, but there's an accepted risk to it that isn't the same as placing the ball in the corner or being from closer range, I think. So a finish could never be speculative.

36:22Charlie Eccleshare:Correct. I think I agree with that. I think that's a good...

36:24Adam Hurrey:I just don't think with that Gerrard one, if you'd be like, oh, yeah, if you were signing someone, he's like, look, he's such a good finisher. Here are some of his goals. And you saw that, you'd be like, that doesn't suggest he's a good finisher. That suggests he's got spectacular long-range goals in his locker.

36:36David Walker:You're not really finishing a move, are you? you're deciding to shoot kind of taking it upon yourself to shoot it's not like the end of something of a structured piece of play

36:47Adam Hurrey:I agree yeah watching that goal it would more be a finish if Gerrard sort of dummies the shot and does a sharing amount to Shearer the Euro 96 and then that guy can finish it like you're not yeah as Dave says you're not necessarily expecting that's going to be the end of the move when it falls to him

36:59Charlie Eccleshare:the next category Charlie is shots that stayed hit the previous examples are not to say that anything hit with full power does not constitute a finish but if a player is close enough After goal, they're confident that the power alone will do the job. Yaya Toure against Stoke City in the 2011 FA Cup final is a finish. It wasn't that far out, and he probably knew that all he had to do was strike it properly rather than aim specifically. But there was far less hope involved than Gerrard against West Ham. OK, I'm all right with that. No glaring holes in this. But furthermore, shots from 25 to 30 yards plus can be finishes if hitting any other way than to just put one's foot through it.

37:33Charlie Eccleshare:Beckham from the halfway line at Selhurst Park is a finish.

37:37Adam Hurrey:I don't know about this yeah I don't think that's not a finish

37:41Charlie Eccleshare:it literally could only be a finish from the halfway line if the keeper was at the other end from a corner and you were basically just stroking it home just guiding it in into an empty net yeah that would be a finish because the distance becomes less of a situation

37:54David Walker:what about Rooney for Everton against West Ham they get from the halfway inside his own half that sort of really flat drilled sort of

38:02Adam Hurrey:but again it's such a hard thing to do that I think a finish, there is an element of you've done the thing that you should have done really efficiently and well. But that to expect a guy to just do what Rooney does there, that's a bloody hard skill.

38:19Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, finishes can't be too expensive.

38:21Adam Hurrey:I think that understands it.

38:21Charlie Eccleshare:I really do sort of believe in that. But the next category, Dave, is hits but not hope. Some goals contain a significant amount of hope, but the technique and execution are so good, they deserve to be called finishes. It's Gareth Bale's volley at Stoke and the overhead kick against Liverpool in the Champions League final. Are there any overhead kicks a finish? I don't mind it. I feel like they could be allowed on the outskirts of the category of finish. They could well be the final act of a flowing move and then it's a finish. It's not a typical finish, but I wouldn't mind it as such. The next category, Charlie, is that it has to pass the literally Dave test.

38:55Charlie Eccleshare:By breaking down the act of goal scoring into its constituent parts, the finish is by definition the end part of the move. Goals where other factors outshine the end result deprive the goal of the status of being a finish. This could be through skilful play in the build-up, whether through individual brilliance or a finishing or a collective team move. This could be through skilful play in the build-up, whether through individual brilliance or finishing a collective team move. If other parts of the move are more impressive, then using a finish as a descriptor is not permitted. Maradona versus England is not a finish.

39:23Charlie Eccleshare:Wow, he does finish though.

39:25Adam Hurrey:Yeah, I think I wouldn't necessarily rule out a finish just based on what's happened before, because I think you'd still say, and what a finish at the end of it.

39:34David Walker:Exactly.

39:34Adam Hurrey:Because it's still a great finish. It's not the defining element of the goal, but it's like a nice postscript. It's almost an afterthought. At the end of it. Yeah, but I think that's fine. It's like, you know, but he's still, and what a finish. Did he have the finish?

39:46Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, exactly. After all of that, did he find the finish? And he did, but obviously not the defining part of that goal. Exactly, yeah. Dave, penalties are debatable, but are not finishes. That's 100 % true. Never a finish, is it Dave? Because nothing has really come before it, crucially. Free kicks are not finishes either. I agree with that. That's a simple one. No problem. But onto the Andy Gray areas, they say, Dave. One of the things we can't agree on is whether headers are finishes or not. Ryan says they are. Hannah says they're not. How do you feel about headers as finishes?

40:18David Walker:It's the classic debate when you get into this stuff. I just don't think I would ever reach for a finish to describe a header. unless in very specific circumstances. Like we had the one earlier this season where it was a... Who was it that scored the header that curled in... Dan Byrne. Dan Byrne, yeah, exactly. And there was like the Harry Kane example against Arsenal was cited as well years ago. But unless there's something very particular about the header, otherwise it's... I think it's kind of similar to what we were talking about with the long range, even though they're often close range. You're just sticking your head on it.

40:50Adam Hurrey:Yeah. I think you just describe it as a really great header rather than a finish. And maybe it's because there's like an in-built respect for a good header. A finish is a slightly easier thing to do. But like a good header, I think you're more emphasising just the headeriness of it, if that makes sense.

41:10Charlie Eccleshare:It could be quite a simple header. But what I would say, if you subtly change it, Charlie, to say, you know, Player X finished it off, finished off a flowing move with a back post nod home. That would be all right, but you still probably would describe it as a finish, would you?

41:24Adam Hurrey:Yeah, I think so. I just don't think you would or I wouldn't.

41:27David Walker:In that respect, they are the most finishy of all. A header is always finishing a move. You can't flick it up to yourself and head it home, can you?

41:35Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, spiritually, it does lend itself quite a lot, but maybe it just doesn't have the sort of established technical kind of appeal, maybe, as a rifled shot into the bottom corner on a one-on-one situation. Anyway, they have a five-point list of what is or isn't a finish. A finish is not a finish if, one, it is overwhelmingly simple, two, the existence of hope in the shot taker's decision-making is over a certain threshold where the required technique is not so high that the goal scorers should be credited, three, it is direct from a set piece, four, the goal scorer's preceding individual skill outshines the goal itself.

42:06Charlie Eccleshare:We've covered that. They can be constituent parts. And five, it is a header. Well, that's open to debate. 1455 words this report is dave um pretty comprehensive eight iterations as well apparently

42:19David Walker:before they've reached the uh the final draft fair play yeah listen fair play and that is the

42:26Charlie Eccleshare:benchmark for the correspondence we want from now on isn't it charlie well yeah i mean they've

42:29Adam Hurrey:gone above and beyond well done excellent

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44:16Charlie Eccleshare:Right, next up, this came from Jack Sampson. He says, I'm a maths teacher for my sins, and whilst preparing revision resources for my Year 11s and their upcoming GCSE exams, I found this egregious example. This is from a real exam paper from the Edexcel board set in June 2017. So it's question 17. The table shows the probabilities that a biased dice will land on two, on three, on four, on five and on six. Neymar rolls the biased dice 200 times. Is this just a pathetic attempt, Charlie, to sort of appeal to GCSE level students?

44:46Adam Hurrey:They really should have made that Neymar Jr. to really double down on it. What's the point of this, Dave?

44:54David Walker:Throw in just a normal name. Neymar rolls the yeah I mean 2017 I guess it's right in the Neymar

45:00Charlie Eccleshare:this is an Excel we're talking about here right in Neymar's plomb that isn't it I think yeah yeah don't like that at all far too adventurous St Podrick writes in next Charlie and says I've just read an article that said Wolves signing a fourth Gomez is a commentator's nightmare surely that makes it easier how many Gomez's would they have to sign before it actually made things more difficult why would it be a commentator's nightmare

45:22Adam Hurrey:they don't look the same so it's completely irrelevant Yeah, I don't know what point that makes things more difficult.

45:28Charlie Eccleshare:The more the merrier. Well, yeah, you could have 11 Gomez's and that would still be the same challenges as having 11 players with different names, Dave, surely.

45:35David Walker:Yeah, just like in your brain, you might just get a bit confused. You might mix them up at some time. It would have been a nightmare for Motti at the end, wouldn't it? Gomez! Gomez! Gomez!

45:45Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, Gomez! It's too zippy again. We've gone too zippy. Sorry, Motti. Right, next up, El Luchador got a text from his dad saying, cliche for you at the end of the month the transfer window slams shut i.e it never just closes how do i let my dad know he's gone full kesey here that's so good text isn't it oh dad it's the brackets before the i.e it never just closes that really sealed the deal there dave

46:12Adam Hurrey:just uh by the way it shows how on the money kesey is yeah yeah with a certain demographic

46:17David Walker:they'd be loving his tweets what would you do though would you just reply with a little laughing

46:21Charlie Eccleshare:emoji reaction you know yeah good one haven't you yeah i hope his dad listens to the pod anyway that's uh right uh the january transfer window has indeed slammed shut and here is the january transfers that just feels so right 11 some good selections some good possibilities for this 11 this year in goal i'm gonna go for stefan ortega dave from man city to forest simply because forest just loves signing goalkeepers and he's just a spare part he'll play anywhere yeah i kind of forgotten about him actually but that's quite nice i didn't mind fraser forster to bournemouth thing about fraser forster to bournemouth charlie is that they immediately signed another goalkeeper that forced him down to third choice and i just thought did he know that was going to happen probably that's that's so harsh on fozzy in my three-man defense charlie i've gone for axel from chelsea to west ham on loan which is which just has desperation all around it chelsea desperate to get rid of him he's desperate to play football west ham are just desperate generally like it's a really sad transfer.

47:17Adam Hurrey:Yeah, I know what you mean. I saw the Lascelles one really jumped out at me just because I felt like had he not moved already, I felt like he's been sort of, do you know what I mean? Like knocking around there for a long time. He went to Leicester.

47:27Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, he's very Leicester. And then completing my three-man defence, Charlie, Pablo Murray, the former Arsenal defender, has gone from Fiorentina to Al-Hilal. He had Saudi written all over him even in his Arsenal days, didn't he?

47:39Adam Hurrey:Yeah, he did. He was just passing through Europe. He was all the formation

47:42Charlie Eccleshare:of the Saudi Pro League. Yeah. He was destined. Very much so. Into midfielder, Oleksandr Zinchenko from Arsenal to Ajax. He's very Ajax. I think it's just because he's blonde, Dave. That might just be it.

47:53David Walker:Yeah, and it's kind of, his career's tailing off, but in like a really elite way. So he won from Man City, where he's part of one of the best Premier League teams ever. He's gone to Arsenal and, you know, he joined them when they were on the way up, but now isn't good enough to be with them when they're right at the top. But going to Ajax, there's still a level of prestige. This isn't Turkey. This isn't Saudi. Yeah. There's some classy. Classy, isn't it?

48:15Adam Hurrey:yeah the funny thing was in chenco's he played for psv very i think he went on loan and last year when he scored against them he did a non-celebration and everyone was like what the fuck's that about just completely forgotten i didn't know that he played for psv it felt entirely random and made

48:29Charlie Eccleshare:up that yeah it does help matters uh fakunda buonanotti from brighton to leeds he was very leeds he should have gone to leeds in the first place not to chelsea this isn't necessarily a transfer that feels so right in isolation but um but the way it panned out is and gola cante from Al-Itihad to Fenerbahce. But in return, Yusuf N. Nasseri has gone from Fenerbahce to Al-Itihad. So that's a great little swap. I'm all right with that. Yeah, nice. Noah Lang, the Dutch winger, has gone from Napoli to Galatasaray. On loan, crucially, Charlie. That Noah Lang. Yeah, he is that Noah Lang, isn't he?

49:00Adam Hurrey:That Noah Lang, yeah.

49:01Charlie Eccleshare:And up front, you could have Donjon Marlon to Roma. You could have Ryan from Vasco da Gama to Bournemouth, which feels very 2026. West Ham signing Tati Castellanos and Pablo Felipe, as we've established is incredibly West Ham. Wolves, Charlie, signing Adam Armstrong, which is basically a pre-emptive relegation signing. A very specific type of transfer, this.

49:22Adam Hurrey:I do like that. I do like that as a genre. Marlon to Roma was a bit surprising just because he thought he was still playing at Villa. It just seemed a bit odd for him to suddenly be shipped out.

49:31Charlie Eccleshare:The inside story of Marlon's failure to impress at Villa is quite interesting, Dave. They basically profiled him internally at Villa as someone who didn't do anything well enough. He wasn't a number nine, and he wasn't equipped to do the running role that Emery needed either side of the striker. So he basically fell between two stools, which feels a bit of a shame for modern data-led coaching. It's like, maybe he's just a good player? Could you just figure out how to use him? Seems a bit of a shame. He's basically a victim of rigid structures.

50:05David Walker:He doesn't look very lean, does he? He looks a bit soft around the edges. So I'm not surprised that he's not very high in the running stats. He's just a bit round. Do you know what I mean? He doesn't look like an athlete. One of those players. Casabiro is the same. He's got a non-athlete's face, but still obviously performing at an elite level.

50:24Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, still in his plomb. But all of those actual transfers, Charlie, are trumped by the mooted transfer of Darwin Nunez from Al-Hilal to Fenerbahce. How perfection is that?

50:35Adam Hurrey:Yeah, he has got Turkey on his way back written all over him. From there, I don't know. Could he then work his way back to the Premier League? Yeah, he could.

50:43Charlie Eccleshare:West Ham in a few years. Still got time. Oh, I mean, overwhelmingly. I want to end today's episode with Happy Hunting Grounds, the ultimate Premier League goal-scoring quiz. We haven't played this on the regular pod for a whole year since Dave beat Charlie 7-4 back in January 2025. But this time, for the first time, we're going to play the ladder. It is a collaborative effort between the three of us to go from level one difficulty to level 10. To progress beyond each rung of the ladder, we have to name a player who has scored for that club at that stadium in the Premier League and in which season.

51:15Charlie Eccleshare:If we only get the goal scorer right, we get to go again. If we don't name the scorer, we fall off the ladder and we're done. Other minor technicalities, Dave, this season and last season are both excluded, as is Erling Haaland. We're doing this right, aren't we?

51:28David Walker:Yeah, when I've been playing this at the live shows with people afterwards, because this is a really good group activity, by the way. it's great to get like a whole bunch of you so you don't have to wait for your turn and all that um i have i've been allowing last season but um let's let's play let's play by the rules let's

51:44Charlie Eccleshare:let's take that off the board we should be careful not to make it too hard for ourselves charlie it's weird to not be playing this in a near empty city center bar at 3 a.m but we're just gonna have to adapt listeners shout along as you listen and just will us to level 10 glory so good luck lads here we go i won't have the answers in front of me either so i'm playing this as well so here we go level one arsenal at stanford bridge and we could go canoe couldn't we yeah should do that canoe 99 2000 canoe 99 2000 is of course correct um could have had three goals there of course right on to level two we go it's like who wants to be a millionaire isn't it dave yeah exactly rattle through the first few level two leads united at anfield um Harrison scored there in the season that they came up.

52:31Charlie Eccleshare:And it was the Friday night game, wasn't it?

52:33David Walker:What, so 2020-21?

52:35Charlie Eccleshare:2020-21. Yeah, the COVID season. And that was a Friday night game.

52:38Adam Hurrey:They also, they beat them just before the World Cup in November 22. I have a feeling, was it Sorrentio Somerville maybe scored the winner? At Anfield. Yeah, they won 2-1. It was like the first home game Van Dijk had lost in some ludicrous amount of time. Yeah, I like it. Oh, I've got one. I've got one. Go on then. Alan Smith, a very young Alan Smith, scored in a Leeds win. I think it would have been 98-99. How sure are you? Are you sure of them? Let's go for it.

53:11Charlie Eccleshare:98-99 Alan Smith. I'm going for it, Charlie.

53:14Adam Hurrey:All right, fuck it. Let's do it. Yeah.

53:16Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, my God. Liverpool 1, Leeds 3. Goal scorer is Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank at the double. And Alan Smith. Superb. Come on. Right. Okay. Right. Right, on to level three. Leicester at Old Trafford. Tony Cotty scored there?

53:30Adam Hurrey:Oh, okay. He did, yeah. Well, either. Yeah, I'm sure Cotty did, but Wes Morgan scored in 15-16.

53:39Charlie Eccleshare:Happy with that, Dave? Man United won, Leicester won. Goal scorer after 17 minutes, Wes Morgan. Superb, Charlie. Charlie's driving things as we go on to level four of the ladder. QPR at St. James' Park. Shit. Fucking hell. Right. A level four? I know, I know. Les Ferdinands. I don't think he scored for QPR against Newcastle away. I've watched a lot of his goals, especially for QPR.

54:08Adam Hurrey:Against his future employers. Yeah, I don't think so. Was there a Ray Wilkins? I feel like for some reason there was a goal going round. I'd love Ray Wilkins to be an answer on Happy Hunting Grounds. being tweeted by one of those, you know, football nostalgia sites. But I have no confidence in that.

54:30David Walker:So that would have been what, 94-95 or 93-94?

54:34Adam Hurrey:Yeah, that sort of...

54:36Charlie Eccleshare:Do we go for the goal scorer only and stay in the game or are we trying to nail this? I don't think Ferdinand's the answer, but he's the only percentage he's guessed there is. Really? What about...

54:46Adam Hurrey:Yeah. How much would you know if he had scored? You say you don't remember it.

54:49Charlie Eccleshare:I've just watched a lot of his compilations for some reason.

54:52Adam Hurrey:and I don't see it.

54:54Charlie Eccleshare:But what about latter era QPR, sort of mid-2010s?

54:58Adam Hurrey:Well, yeah, you've got Charlie Austin would be the only thing verging on a percentage play. Don't mind Charlie Austin, you know. From, when would it have been? 14, 15.

55:10Charlie Eccleshare:Newcastle would have been a bit more shambolic then as well.

55:12Adam Hurrey:Yeah, they would have been. But it is basically just that season, really.

55:16David Walker:Loic Remy.

55:17Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, maybe. That's hard, isn't it?

55:20David Walker:I love the romance of Ray Wilkins, though.

55:23Charlie Eccleshare:should we go for Ray Wilkins and 94-95 I mean

55:29Adam Hurrey:it's so ludicrous like I don't have any confidence in that Ray Wilkins 94-95 this could potentially

55:36Charlie Eccleshare:make us tumble off the ladder on level 4 but let's see where we are QPR at St James's Newcastle 2 QPR 1 in 94-95 goal scorer cometh the hour cometh the man Danny Diccio oh oh fuck off both play for Shampdoria I can tell you yes that's true that should be a technicality we stay on the ladder no no Ray Wilkins has never scored for QPR at St James but I tell you who has bloody Les Ferdinand in 93-94 oh your compilations let you down yeah I know can't believe it can't believe it what a ridiculous claim for me to make we've fallen at level 4 what a shame we'll do the ladder again another time what an anti-clivex that was after all that's the luck of the draw luck of the algorithm well played to both of you thanks to you charlie eccleshare thank you thanks to you david walker thank you and uh thanks everyone for listening we'll be back on tuesday see you then

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