In short
Football Clichés episode built around “accidentally patronising” commentary and other football media misfires, plus a long segment on the Piers Morgan interview with Cristiano Ronaldo.
Guests
No in-studio guests; the “adjudication panel” is Adam Hurry with Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker. The episode also discusses a Piers Morgan panel interview featuring Richard Keyes, Henry Winter, Guillaume Balaguet, plus guests Fabrizio Romano, Mark Goldbridge, Ramon Calderon, Emily Austin, and Carole Prince (HMRC of football).
Key claims
Steve McManaman’s Champions League co-commentary was unintentionally patronising toward Athletic Bilbao. Dan Burn’s “guided” header vs Athletic Bilbao is rare and technically specific, and his second yellow vs Brentford was unusually magnanimously accepted. Mickey Gray’s on-air “Big Dan” mistake about Dan Ballard’s international allegiance is a classic error.
Notable examples
“Early Christmas present” goalkeeping gift (Preston vs Millwall); Ken Loach’s Sorry We Missed You football banter realism; England heat-proof “game model” for North America; and the Ronaldo/Morgan discussion of greatness, World Cups, wet Wednesday Stoke debate, and “hottest footballer” segment.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOFootball Cliches Introduction
1:10 to 2:47
Hosts Adam Hurry, Charlie Eccleshare, and David Walker welcome listeners and discuss the nuances of football commentary.
“Gives a nod to Ronaldinho in the corner with a FIFA World Cup meal.”
Debating Head Loss vs. Head's Gone
2:58 to 5:56
The hosts explore the differences between the football terms 'head loss' and 'head's gone' and share personal anecdotes related to these terms.
“I'm Adam Hurry, this is the Adjudication Panel.”
FSA Awards and Cultural References
5:56 to 6:54
The hosts discuss their nomination for the Football Supporters Association Awards and analyze the cultural references made in recent advertisements.
“Yeah, are Ramble Leicester here, Charlie?”
Unintentional Commentary and Humor
6:54 to 14:00
A humorous analysis of Steve McManaman's co-commentary and various silly football references in different contexts.
“Hopefully that gives us the edge over the competition.”
Reflections on a Memorable Day for Football
14:00 to 16:08
Discussing the emotional rollercoaster of a significant match day in football history.
“but he talks about how great a day that was when City lost the league.”
Hypothetical Premier League Without Managerial Changes
16:08 to 18:21
Exploring what a Premier League table would look like without any managerial sackings.
“You know, every club in its rightful place that every fan base would be placated to a certain extent.”
Dan Burn's Header and Subsequent Red Card
18:21 to 20:34
Analyzing Dan Burn's notable header and his dismissal in a recent match.
“I've been unsure, Dave, what to make of Dan Burns' week last week because there was a surprising amount of awestruck discourse about his header against Athletic Bilbao.”
Mickey Gray's Mistake on Dan Ballard
20:34 to 22:59
Discussing a notable error made by Mickey Gray regarding Dan Ballard's international status.
“and it was one of the most magnanimously accepted second yellow cards I've ever seen.”
The Under-17 World Cup in Qatar
22:59 to 26:02
Overview of the ongoing Under-17 World Cup and its unusual setup in Qatar.
“So he thought that's probably it, isn't it?”
Aston Villa's Set-Piece Coach Discussion
28:41 to 30:29
Discussion on the role of set-piece coaches and their influence on free kicks.
“He writes in and said that the camera during the Aston Villa-Bourmouth game, Charlie, panned to Aston Villa's set-piece coach, the fellow with the long hair, after Emi Buendia scored a direct free kick.”
Show all 18 chapters
Analyzing the Big Man/Little Man Partnership
30:29 to 33:05
Debate on height dynamics in football partnerships and player roles.
“Here is Cambridge United manager Neil Harris reflecting on his side's 0-0 draw with Salford in League Two.”
Criteria for Big Man/Small Man Standards
33:05 to 34:39
Exploring ideal height ratios for big and small man partnerships in football.
“Maybe he was 6 '0", but he wasn't tall, but he was superb in the air.”
Keys and Grey Chemistry and Piers Morgan Interview
34:39 to 35:48
Discussion on the evolving dynamics of Keys and Grey, plus a look at Piers Morgan's interview with Ronaldo.
“Yeah, but anyway, speaking of big men, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.”
Ronaldo's Legacy and Morgan's Interview Style
35:48 to 42:01
Examining the implications of Ronaldo's career and the nature of Morgan's interview approach.
“And superbly, Carole Prince, HMRC of football, was on there at the tail end to dissect some of Ronaldo's claims.”
Discussion on Ronaldo and Messi Debate
42:01 to 46:15
The hosts delve into a humorous debate about who would score for your life between Ronaldo and Messi, highlighting social media influences.
“Like he's basically just asking him like, how much money you have?”
Keyes on Ronaldo's Post-Retirement Future
46:16 to 48:00
Richard Keyes shares his thoughts on the implications of Cristiano Ronaldo's fame and its impact on his future after retirement.
“You might have been there covering it for local television or something.”
Wrap-Up and Acknowledgments
48:42 to 49:01
The hosts conclude the episode by thanking each other and the listeners while hinting at the next episode.
“If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly, even if they blow the lead later.”
Wrap-Up and Acknowledgments
49:04 to 49:25
The hosts conclude the episode by thanking each other and the listeners while hinting at the next episode.
“You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome?”
Transcript
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1:09Laminya Mall steps into McDonald's, looks left, sees Pulisic, looks right, sees Jimenez. Gives a nod to Ronaldinho in the corner with a FIFA World Cup meal. Ronaldinho sees Son in the booth Son finds Beckham going for extra Big Mac sauce He's got Davies at the table just behind him Davies going for his collectible cup A steal by Henri Who pulls his own collectible cup Collect one of nine legendary cups With a FIFA World Cup meal Participating McDonald's for a limited time While supplies last All rights reserved 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026 I'm sorry You can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines As much as you like Is Gascoigne going to have a crack?
1:45He is, you know Oh, I fell
2:16Brilliant!
2:22Charlie Eccleshare:Head loss versus heads gone. Clichés catchphrases in unexpected places. An unashamed appeal for your vote at the FSA Awards. Steve McManaman co-commentating on a small child's drawing. Early, early Christmas presents. Famous footballing brothers in mermaid drama credits. Big Dan Verne versus Big Dan Ballard. Tin pot scenes at the Under-17 World Cup. and Piers Morgan goes head-to-head with Richard Keyes. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts, this is Football Clichés.
2:57Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry, this is the Adjudication Panel. Joining me, of course, is Charlie Eccleshare. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Alongside you is David Walker. How are things? Things are good. Charlie, a compelling WhatsApp from you this weekend. He says, in relation to my kids, I was discussing with my wife the differences between head loss and head's gone. I don't ask the context behind that, but a nuanced topic indeed. I mean, talk me through your logic between them. Yeah, I think they are quite similar. To me, head loss is a slightly more temporary and extreme thing.
3:34Head's gone. I think that lasts for a slightly longer time. His head's just completely gone. So head loss, Dave. Head loss is a moment. Yeah.
3:42Charlie Eccleshare:Head loss, Dave, is an angry reaction to something that's just happened. Head's gone is, you know, existentially, that's it. You're irretrievable. Past the point of no return. Yeah, it's gone. Whereas loss, you can calm down and get yourself back in the game. Well, I hope it was the first one then, Charlie, for your offspring. Yeah, it was actually historical. It didn't happen over the weekend, so all good. Good. Dave, I don't know if this was just the cliches pod's cultural reach or some galaxy brain marketing strategy, but this was spotted by several listeners in an advert during the Commode and Mayo's Take podcast.
4:15Mark, are Black Friday and Cyber Monday stressful flashpoints that whip people into a spending frenzy or a good chance to get presents for Christmas at great prices? A bit of both, I suppose. You want Shopify in and around your business this November. Shopify's marketing tools will help push your brand to the forefront of the chaos and helps them get the shop away. What is going on? Who wrote that? What is this? I'd say the least likely scenario is that Mark Kermode and Simon Mayo are big fans of the pod and have decided to do that themselves. The most likely scenario is that whoever is writing that ad or producing the pod is a fan of cliches and has decided to have some fun with it.
4:58Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, Charlie, some real gusto with that last bit that gets the shop away. At that point, they must be wondering what the hell this script was about. But yeah, can't say they're fully invested in the niche material. Yeah, I like the idea. They're really thinking carefully about the script. It might be that it's all kind of lightly washing over them. Who can say? Who can say? I do like the idea of the producer recording this advert with Komodo Mayo and saying, guys, can you just, you know the bit where it says gets the shop away? Can you just do that again, but sort of sing it a little bit for me?
5:32Charlie Eccleshare:What is going on here? Absolutely not. But yeah, what a great time for the Clichés Pod to be spreading its cultural wings because we have been nominated for the sixth time at the Football Supporters Association Awards for Podcast of the Year. We want to win it, Dave, don't we? There's no pretending to be done here. We want this. We'd love to win it, yeah, for sure. And we need you to vote, all your listeners out there, we need you to vote for us if we're going to win it. Last year, the Football Ramble somewhat surprisingly won it, given that the Guardian Football Weekly seemed to have an iron grip over this award for several years.
6:04So perhaps it is up for grabs.
6:07Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, are Ramble Leicester here, Charlie? Yeah, I don't know if that was better or worse. It was kind of like Football Weekly. But Football Weekly winning it is like City winning the Premier League every year. It's like you can make your peace with that. Like that's fine, whatever. But then Rambled it, it was like, but that really could have been us. Yeah. And even they read it because it wasn't, I remember that moment where they read it out and it wasn't Guardian Football Weekly. It was like straight into football and you had this like split second. So I guess it gives hope that it might not be Football Weekly every year.
6:32You could possibly say that Ramble are Liverpool. They've been around for a long time. Oh, no question. Yeah, exactly. I think we wouldn't be Leicester, but I think we'd be like Villa or someone. Blackburn in Knights 425. Surprising, you know, someone who's in the mix, but then just comes through the pack and wins it surprisingly.
6:51Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know where to place us, but I don't care now because I just want to win it. So go to vote.footballcliches.com. Yes, we have a special URL for this. Hopefully that gives us the edge over the competition. I don't care if you love this podcast like we do, please vote for us because it really would be the icing on our cake, perhaps even the cherry. Right, time for the adjudication panel. This first one came from Danny Scott. It's superb. With athletic Bilbao 2-0 down at Newcastle and the clock ticking down in the Champions League last week, Steve McManaman provides perhaps the most unintentionally patronising piece of co-commentary ever recorded.
7:25That's a nice turn. Oh, good effort. and Pope has to get out
7:30Charlie Eccleshare:it's a great effort actually Savano yeah it's a great effort because Nick Pope wasn't set he wasn't in the middle of his goal he actually makes a good save sneaking in it was a really good effort and a great save from him just bounces before him Charlie that tone is so recognisable to me when you have to congratulate your child for doing a 6 out of 10 piece of work yeah I mean last week I went to my younger son's changing nursery so I had to go and have settling in days with him so I was with him as he was being talked to by his new key worker and stuff. And it's a very similar tone. It's like, do you want to play with a puzzle?
8:03You're doing great. McManaman, you know, he could double up and go work at a nursery.
8:09Charlie Eccleshare:Danny Scott's bang on here, Dave. It is weirdly patronised. It's like, well done, Athletic Bilbao. You might have limited yourselves with your Cantera policy, but you've produced a fairly decent speculative effort for 25 yards against Nick Pope there. Could have snuck in. He's full of surprises, McManaman, isn't he? His co-conference just keeps on giving. It is really good. worrying scenes Charlie on the weekend of the 8th and 9th of November on the Soccer Saturday the Preston goalkeeper gifting a goal to Millwall was presented as an early Christmas present I think that might be the earliest one on record yeah funny enough I was sent another one to do with Dover Athletic but there was an early Christmas present there as well so yeah I mean you know bonfire night is barely still fresh in the mirror isn't it bonfire night yeah horrendous scenes right time for footballers names in things now this came from Simon Meakey, and with a heavy heart, we return to the Reacher novels.
8:59Charlie Eccleshare:This, soon to be the largest, if Strickland had his way. And already the most profitable. The same time Reacher was heading back to town, Strickland was walking through an area that was usually full of armoured vehicles. He was on his way to a walled-off space at the far end of a bay. It was nominally his office, but more often than not he slept there when he was stateside. He fished a key from his pocket, but before he could work the lock he heard footsteps approaching. Two sets, both moving fast. He adjusted the patch that covered his left eye. He had lost it to an IED along with his left arm when he was serving in Iraq in 03, then turned to see who was coming.
9:46Two men hurried into view. Steve McLaren, the operations director, who was tall and rangy with a freshly shaved head, and David Moyes, VP of procurement, who was his physical opposite, short and stout with grey hair and a matching straggly beard.
10:05Charlie Eccleshare:We've said it before, Dave, Lee and Andrew Child, authors of the Reach novels, are out of control. David Moyes. Wow, and Steve McLaren. So they've taken steps there to make sure that the physical appearance of the characters in the book is as far away as possible from the real-life counterparts. Steve McLaren shaving off his, on McLaren's island. Yeah, both very describable faces, I would say, Charlie, for a novel. I am least reassured that he didn't go down that, you know, hyper-accurate route. Yeah, then it becomes sort of weird fan fiction. Exactly. Which you don't want. David Boyes, honestly, you really need to rein this in.
10:41Charlie Eccleshare:But this next one's very curious. It came from Jack Evans, who's staying in a hostel on the Gold Coast in Australia. and he's watching noughties Nickelodeon mermaid drama H2O Just Add Water and in the credits you've got the costume designers the makeup artists and the mermaid tail wranglers Jack Charlton and Robert Charlton this is silly joke that's amazing that's a silly joke surely Jack without the K Jack's spelled differently though isn't it yeah but you sometimes get this in credits Dave you know just sort of silly credits and the mermaid tail wranglers is presumably one of those but a sneaky little football reference the jack without the k is strange though if it is made up i didn't have time to look him up on imdb jack charlton to know if that is indeed his just specialist role across all mermaid films he will wrangle their tails yeah um listeners get in touch if you know the story behind that one finally um this is from adam frywald it's from murder town series five episode two and the uh policeman interviewed in a shadowy room about a case was dci jeff hurst from lancashire police spelt exactly the same as well he must get a lot of banter about that last man standing jeff it's a normal name child but you never really considered the idea that someone else might be called that yeah i mean there must be loads of loads of people was it actually jimmy greaves actually should have been the dci that's the thing like really yeah you know if you actually look at it look at the lancashire police force he was the better policeman um next up this came from George Winter.
12:12Charlie Eccleshare:It's Football Conversations in Films. This is Ken Loach's Sorry We Missed You from 2019. And I want us just to appraise the kind of, the accuracy and the realism of this football conversation. It is a, it's a parcel delivery guy and the door is answered by a Newcastle fan. Parcel for you there. Just give us a signature on that. Cheers. What's that? United, mate. Un-United. Man United? Yeah. Seriously? Yeah. Why? Why not support a local team Even Sunderland's better than that shite. It is my local team and from Manchester. Well, he bollocks me. I've never seen a man you're a fan from Manchester.
12:47I've never seen a man you're a fan from Manchester. Come on. Yeah. There you go. What's that? That must have been a long and upsetting day for you, that man. What's that? When you think you're winning the league, seconds to go. Man City hanging on. Last kick of the game, Sergio Aguero pops up. Wins the title. Takes it off your hands. You win the title, you win. Fuck all. Must have been torture for you. Yeah. It was fucking great. And then he pissed myself off at me. What a day that was. Brilliant. Aye. Funny, innit? Aye. Not as funny as the time that you lot were 12 points clear though, eh? And you blew it.
13:17Do you remember when Keegan went and told him of his little rant after Fergie got in his head? I'd love it, I'd love it if we beat him. Aye. Yeah, and then we come up here and King Gerrit puts one past your lot, 1-0, and who won the league? Us, not fucking you. Alright, who are cancer now, pal? I'll see you in a bit. Enjoy your part. Have a good day! Sunday October 20th, 1986, we beat you five and out! And I fucking loved it! Loved it! Fuck off, you're one-up. You won't fuck off.
13:44Charlie Eccleshare:Thing is, Charlie, there are elements of this that are incredibly real. Like, this is a perfectly plausible bit of banter that could happen. But it's the sheer weight of exposition in here. All the little details. It's like Charlie Eccleshare on Happy Hunting Grounds. A couple of things to raise. One, and this may be true, maybe some fans just do love Charlotte and Freud so much, but he talks about how great a day that was when City lost the league. Sorry, when City won the league in 2012. Newcastle did also miss out on a Champions League spot that very day. They lost away at Everton. So it was actually quite a bad day for Newcastle.
14:16So maybe this fan was just so preoccupied with what was going on. You know, he hates Manchester United that much. But I would say, I don't think that was a great day, really. Focus on your own team. Brilliant work from you. He also, as he's leaving, he could turn around and be like, yes, you did beat us 5-0. We did also go on to win the league that season. So it was ultimately irrelevant.
14:34Charlie Eccleshare:My favourite bit of extra information in there, which completely ruined the realism of it, Dave, was the rundown of Kevin Keegan's rant, which is, of course, so iconic and so embedded in the football consciousness in this country that it would never need explaining to the other person, especially if they were a Newcastle fan. But it's these little bits of football conversation in films that just go on just too long. It won me around by the end, though, because the initial escalation, I thought, was a bit weird from the Newcastle fan, like just unnecessarily aggressive escalation. Although even that said, I think as we experienced recently in Newcastle after the quiz, where there was a particularly, hostile is not the word, but there was a Newcastle fan who was in the presence of some Sunderland fans.
15:19Oh, God. Who just was very visibly uncomfortable with their presence. He was so angry. So football fans do have this in them to just be weirdly aggressive in sort of non-aggressive situations. But I liked the way that, by the end, the escalation of it all kind of made sense. But I did also like, right at the start, where he said the emphasis that he puts on, what, Man United? When the guy says United, which was, that's authentic. Other United fans, they get annoyed about that, don't they?
15:51Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, but yeah, just, you know, I thought Ken Loach's films, Charlie, were at least famed for their sort of realist dialogue. But no, not in that case. But yeah, you've got to cater for various audiences and some people need the Kevin Keegan rant contact explained to them. So yeah, I'll give that a generous six out of ten. Ali Darlow gets in touch next, Dave, in an attempt to solve the conundrum we were faced with last week about what would a Premier League table look like for a season where there were no managerial sackings. You know, every club in its rightful place that every fan base would be placated to a certain extent.
16:22Charlie Eccleshare:So here's his rundown. Liverpool to win the title. Arsenal second. Manchester City third, but get to the Champions League semi-finals. Chelsea 4th, Manchester United 5th and qualify for the Champions League, Tottenham 6th and qualify for the Europa, Newcastle 7th and qualify for the Europa, Bournemouth 8th but were 4th at Christmas, Villa 9th but gets to the final of the Europa, Brighton 10th but gets to the FA Cup semi-finals, Forrest 11th and gets to the quarters of the Europa but going out to Lyon, Fulham 12th, Brentford 13th, Everton 14th, 15th Palace, they win the Conference League, West Ham 16th and gets to the Carabao Cup final.
16:59Charlie Eccleshare:Wolves 17th, bottom at Christmas but survive, crucial. 18th Sunderland, they fall to relegation on the final day. Cheers, echo around the stadium light even in relegation, bit weird. Leeds 19th, Burnley 20th. It's close, isn't it? There's a lot of stuff in there that makes sense and I posted about this on a similar thread on the Reddit page the other day. I think the most crucial thing for there to be no sackings in a Premier League season here is how that relegation battle unfolds you need Burnley Leeds and Sunderland to you don't you can't have anyone that's adrift too early you need them to be in touch but you can't really have them going on a run because if they go on too much of a run that means a big club will be sucked down like like we're seeing at the moment with Wolves and I think Wolves bottom at Christmas I think if Wolves are bottom at Christmas I think they they're pulling the trigger aren't they before the January window you can't have Wolves bottom at Christmas in this hypothetical situation no I think you need one of West Ham and Wolves to be muddling along.
18:00The fans are a bit disgruntled, but they're just about with enough games here and there, but then they get sucked in to the battle right at the end.
18:08Charlie Eccleshare:West Ham and Wolves are the danger teams here, Charlie, so obviously they are the real weak point of this whole scenario. They will pull the trigger pretty much at any point and they're always essentially going to be underachieving and there's no space for them further up the table. So that's it. Well, I mean, the eight teams being in Europe is helpful for this potentially. yeah like it's a bit of a cheat in some ways but that would you could offset so any team like Newcastle you know they could be lower potentially firstly Eddie Howe's not getting sacked so if you're going or not for a while anyway but if they you know if they get to like the Champions League quarters which isn't totally ludicrous it's unlikely but or even last 16 because if they had to win a playoff then you're having like mad incredible nights at St James's where they win a Champions League knockout tie I reckon they can sort of you can have them you can afford to have them in mid-table such a delicate balancing act this but I think this is about as close as we've ever got so far.
18:55Charlie Eccleshare:But yeah, enjoyed that. I've been unsure, Dave, what to make of Dan Burns' week last week because there was a surprising amount of awestruck discourse about his header against Athletic Bilbao. Yeah. A big long Reddit thread on our page about what kind of header it was. I waded in with guided. I think it's a guided header. A lot of people said it was too powerful to be guided, but I think he used the power of the cross because he headed it back from whence it came, which is always useful. So I'm happy with guided. Yeah. and because of the the angle of it the trajectory of the cross and the power of the cross he didn't really need to put too much neck power into it he just sort of just walked through it yeah he ran through the ball and i mean the most amazing thing about it obviously is the the arc of the ball once he's headed it it's pretty rare you see a curled header like that yeah he hit it with the inside of his head charlie yeah it is an extraordinary header it's kind of hard to classify as to exactly what happens I know I've seen one like this yeah I was going to I was going to ask you that did you get a satisfactory answer to that because I do know what you mean it doesn't I have an image of a comparable one but yeah I can't think what that is it came down to two which I don't really think nailed it in my head it was Steve Bruce's goal for Man United against Sheffield Wednesday that clinched Man United the title in 1993 no I don't think so and then there was also headed by Michael Ballack against Chelsea at Man United at Stamford Bridge about 2010 or something like that and he sort of It was a little bit closer range, but he came in from the same angle and it did follow a similar trajectory.
20:21Charlie Eccleshare:But I don't think either of them are right, but I've got it in my head. It might even have been at the other end and mirrored, which really annoys me because it makes it even harder to find. But Dan Burns' week then got worse, though, Charlie, because he was sent off against Brentford and it was one of the most magnanimously accepted second yellow cards I've ever seen. Did you see the little nod he gave the referee? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine, see you later. Okay, which is weird because I don't think he really makes much contact. Is it because he gets lucky with the other one? So he's sort of like, yeah, fair cop.
20:48I probably should have gone earlier. It's evened itself out. But yeah, it is incredibly magnanimous.
20:53Charlie Eccleshare:That could well be the logic. I mean, if anything, Dave, that's the classiest of touches. You should say, yeah, I should have gone for the first one. You saw it on my body language. You still didn't give the penalty. And now I pretty much have to go. Yeah. And in both situations, after he's made an attempt to play the ball, both times he's done the old arms, both hands raised over his shoulders sort of thing. he looked guilty both times but it was almost like he was waiting for the referee to get the yellow card out and it was like are you going to send me off are you going to send me off yeah okay yeah fine yeah off and go see you later speaking of Big Dan Bees the Athletics Colin Miller alerted me to this this is ex-Sunderland defender Mickey Gray on TalkSport with Sean Custis and Henry Winter talking about Dan Ballard and making the absolute classic footballing error and look this is a late show and it might be going a little bit over the top, but we haven't got too many centre-halves in our country.
Read the full transcript
21:50Charlie Eccleshare:Has he left it too late? Because I think his performance is deserving England call-up. Can we have two big Dans? Two big Dans in the back four. Just the 32 caps for Northern Ireland. It's great. I mean, this happens a lot. Do you know what, Charlie? I'll be honest. During Dan Ballard's recent surge to notoriety, I did think to myself, how old is he? Could he be an England picture? It just so it happened to coincide with Northern Ireland being on TV. I saw him and went, OK, definitely. I'll remember that mistake. But yeah, I mean, it's a classic one. This has been this mistake. This mistake has been made dozens of times over the years.
22:25Yeah, I remember Harry Redknapp writing a Telegraph column talking about Wes Morgan when Leicester are on the way to winning the league. And could he, you know, why isn't he in the frame? Which is less excusable than you shouldn't make this error anyway. but just saying it off the top of your head whilst you're on live radio or TV, like it can happen. Should we Mickey Gray knows more about Dan Ballard than that? In a column, though. In a column. I mean, that's gone through some editing and some checks, surely. But I mean, Dan Ballard, born in Stevenage, looking at his Wikipedia page, but his mother's Northern Irish.
22:56Maybe Mickey Gray's met him and he hasn't got a Northern Irish accent. So he thought that's probably it, isn't it?
23:02Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe there should be a clause in the FIFA regulations about international allegiance switching, Charlie, which says, you know, if the general talk spot consensus is they don't know who you play international football for, you're allowed to switch. I mean, yeah, there's also because like, obviously this doesn't excuse it, but he is so the platonic ideal of a sort of tough English centre-back. Like I can totally see why the mistake's been made. Obviously you might then check it or whatever, but he is, it's like when we have, when we did like, you know, players who should have played for this club but haven't and some of them were international shouts.
23:31You know, I think there was one about like, how is Pedro Porro not Portuguese? like he just gives off that vibe there is something very like young lion heart center back english about dan ballard there there just is mickey gray's uh twitter account yesterday was a perfect snapshot of of sort of ex-pro randomly midway through the day he retweeted himself from 2021 just linking to his instagram account and then that was followed up followed up by an apology for the situation uh for the dan ballard situation oh no i didn't realize he'd addressed it and
24:04Charlie Eccleshare:broken his silence about it oh shame all round okay um the under 17 world cup is going on in the small but powerful state of qatar at the moment and um as is qatar's wants with this sort of thing dave they're all the games are taking place within close proximity to each other because easy easy to get around for the fans for the players but even more microscopic than the 2022 world cup they're all being played at the aspire campus yeah in doha and um and so i was looking at the Wikipedia page for the fixtures and they're all in like there's one game on pitch three one game on pitch seven this is like a kids five a side tournament it's tin pot it's happening marshes at least give them a name yeah I mean and that's the thing like in Doha in Qatar it's the sort of place where you couldn't put it past them to sort of name all their pitches after world famous stadiums like you do get at power league sometimes that dad at goals yeah yeah named him after Keezy that would be class have you seen the footage have you seen any footage from this tournament so far.
25:00I've seen the aerial shots of it all going on, yeah. During a match, if you're watching, I saw some of the England footage the other day. You can sort of see some of the other games going on in the background. Shouldn't be allowed. And the bit I saw, England were playing and in the top left-hand corner of the shot, you could see through to the other pitch, but the game hadn't started yet and the two teams were lined up for the anthems next to each other, which just looked really strange.
25:22Charlie Eccleshare:Can't be having this. I know it's under 17s, but Jesus, there's some standards that FIFA need to uphold. Anyway, did you know that nearly one in five men in the UK experience changes in sexual performance as they get older? Well, help is at hand. MedExpress can provide support in minutes through a free online consultation. Trusted by more than 1.5 million customers, they'll suggest the right treatment for your concerns, from erectile dysfunction to premature ejaculation. Their UK-based clinical team will support you every step of the way and send any medication straight to your door. And the best bit?
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28:04Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!
28:12Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. a reminder that you can sign up for Dreamland for just£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes and two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show, plus other things as well. We're recording episode 11 this week. The series so far includes deep dives on Match of the Day, the history of football video game commentary, the perfect football season, the Champions League and Monday Night Football. Go to dreamland.footballcliches.com to sign up. Right, next up, we've got Jason Suter. He writes in and said that the camera during the Aston Villa-Bourmouth game, Charlie, panned to Aston Villa's set-piece coach, the fellow with the long hair, after Emi Buendia scored a direct free kick.
28:53Charlie Eccleshare:I'm not having it. Yeah, this is not involved in his remit, surely. I mean, I'm sure he has some guidance, but no, he can't take the credit for it, can he? I don't know. Yeah, probably not. I mean, we don't know the extent to which he's talked to the players about this is where, again, I don't know if this would be him or more of the analysts, but, you know, this is where the goalkeeper likes to stand. This is where they like to position their wall, all of that kind of stuff. Austin McPhee is the guy's name. Yeah, yeah. Direct free kicks. Come on. We don't need set piece coaches for those, do we?
29:23Yeah, let's do this with the close-ups.
29:26Charlie Eccleshare:The England World Cup news cycle moves on one notch, Dave, because, as Jack Pitbrook writes for The Athletic, England are looking into ways to tackle the heat in North America next summer. He interviewed Tuchel's assistant, Anthony Barry, and apparently all the focus is on developing a physically intense style, but England's coaches know they will need a way of playing next summer that can work in intense heat and humidity. They have analysts studying the Club World Cup so they can establish what works in such conditions. Barry says it will be our job to build a heat-proof game model that can be successful out there.
29:59Charlie Eccleshare:Good to have this addressed soon. We cannot have wilting next summer. A heat-proof game model is... We used to call that conserving energy. You do worry a bit as well if they're basing too much off the Club World Cup from last summer as well. How reliable is that data? I'm not sure. Different game. Yeah. But yes, good to know. I mean, what other issues can we get ahead of? I presume they've nailed the training camp already and whether it's entertaining enough or too entertaining. But yeah, good to have this one nailed straight away. Right, next one comes from Henry Collier. Here is Cambridge United manager Neil Harris reflecting on his side's 0-0 draw with Salford in League Two.
30:36At this point, we just felt a couple of decisions went against us in the final third, which I thought any decent referee would give. But that's the way the apple crumble sometimes.
30:53Charlie Eccleshare:Once again, I ask Dave, can we see how this might have happened? Yeah. The apple's not the crumbly part of the crumble, Neil. Maybe he dehydrates his apples and crumples them over the top of the soggy biscuit, Charlie. It's like an upside down crumble. That'll get him to the final of MasterChef easy, Neil Harris. Next up, George Baker writes in, Dave says, I'm currently watching Eastleigh versus Walsall on the BBC in the FA Cup. very early on the commentator, I think it's Mark Scott, makes reference to Aaron Presley and Daniel Carnu as the classic big man slash little man partnership up front for Walsall.
31:25Charlie Eccleshare:As a semi-regular spectator at the best, Scott, I can confirm that Presley is a mountain at 6 '4". However, this comment didn't really seem right in respect to Carnu. Apparently he's 5 '11", taller than the average height of 5 '9", for a UK male. As someone who is the same height as Daniel Carnu, I wouldn't be considering myself as a small man. Surely we can't be having this. I suggest only a striker below average height, Like Michael Owen, for example, could be considered your classic little man in a partnership. How strict should we be here? Or is it just that they're performing the small man role?
31:54Yeah, I mean, I suppose the little man can be little relative to the big man, can't he? If the big man's especially big, then yes, you're right. The average height man could perform the little man function. But I think it's style of play as well, isn't it? Is he making the runs in behind? Is it flick-ons? That sort of thing. I also do think football just is slightly different from the average height of a UK male, because I think footballers tend to be, I would say, on average. I don't have the data to back me up here, but I'm sure footballers are on average taller than, you know, it is slightly different.
32:28That's a fair assumption, yeah. You know, if you're five foot ten as a footballer, I think that would feel fairly short, whereas it wouldn't or at least technically shouldn't. Fullbacks bring you down the average, aren't they, Dave? Dave. Yeah, I mean, do you not have this thing, Charlie, you must have met, you know, been in the presence of a fair share of footballers over the years. Sometimes, not such a height thing, maybe, but sometimes they're smaller than you think. Yeah, well, they're often so live, like their build is like there's just nothing on them.
32:54Charlie Eccleshare:That blows my mind how skinny they are, I have to say. But yeah, that's how you get through 60 games a season, I guess. But five inch difference here, Dave. That's probably the low end of the tolerance limit for the big man, small man allowance. Yeah. Yeah. Five foot eleven is pushing it but you've definitely got to be under six foot to be the small man but i i will allow charlie some thematic criteria here if they are performing you know if one's latching on to flick ons then they are by default the small man in the partnership i mean according to wikipedia shane long is five foot eleven and i would consider him perfect for a kind of small man in a big man small man partnership like he's nippy he's scrappy he'll run in behind all day he'll latch on to things so yeah i think i think maybe maybe it is okay to be that kind of height Could you have a partnership where you have somebody who's 5 '11", say, or less than 6 '0", and is actually really good in the air because they've got a great leap?
33:46So, Heide Helgeson, let's say. Maybe he was 6 '0", but he wasn't tall, but he was superb in the air. And then playing with somebody like Haaland, who's massive, but really quick and loves running into space.
33:59Charlie Eccleshare:Latching onto his flick-ons. That would be so good to see. Commentators wouldn't know what to do. more within the realms of actual realism charlie um how about this would you consider chris sutton and alan shearer as a big man small man partnership no no i wouldn't no i mean shearer wasn't latching onto flick-ons yeah that was kind of their defined roles and it's sutton more of the target man shearer more of the finisher only three inches between them yeah but they were more all right like they could both do the other stuff better i think than your classic little and large fair Fair enough. Okay, yeah.
34:31Charlie Eccleshare:So, ideally, Dave, what heights are we looking for? 5 '8 and 6 '3? Something like that? Yeah. Yeah, you want it to be obvious, don't you? Yeah, but anyway, speaking of big men, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.
34:57Ford Super Sunday.
35:02Charlie Eccleshare:Let's loosen up first with this from Dan Lewis. Some cracks beginning to show in Keys and Grey's decades-old chemistry. I said to you last week that exact thing, Katie. Is it because he's arrived at Tottenham Mission? Katie, Katie. Look at this. Look at it. Call me Katie. Don't have a Katie. How can you be making that mistake now? This is insane. What a thing to call him up on. Yeah, that's very weird. Who's lost their mind more there, Charlie? Katie's head's gotten more there. Yeah, absolutely mad. It was a harsh S in Kesey's defence, but other than that, a strange thing to finally pick up on 30 years into their working relationship.
35:38Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, very odd. But really only one thing that we can talk about on Keys and Grey Corner today. It is the Piers Morgan interview with Cristiano Ronaldo, which he re-released on YouTube shortly afterwards with added reaction from a panel of esteemed guests featuring Fabrizio Romano, Mark Goldbridge, ex-Real Madrid president Ramon Calderon, social media influencer Emily Austin, who was only there to talk about how hot Cristiano Ronaldo is. And superbly, Carole Prince, HMRC of football, was on there at the tail end to dissect some of Ronaldo's claims. But on the main panel, it was Richard Keyes, Henry Winter, Guillaume Balaguet.
36:14Charlie Eccleshare:What an incredible panel to accompany Piers Morgan. So good that these people are coexisting in any context. Let's hear Piers Morgan setting the scene with his panel. I've assembled a star panel of sporting luminaries to give me their verdict. and we'll hear from some special guests along the way. Well, joining me now is the Bain Sports anchor, Richard Keyes, the Sports Illustrated correspondent, Henry Winter, and the journalist and biographer to both Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, Guillaume Balaguet. Well, welcome to all of you. I mean, I'd never heard Bain pronounce Bain before, but I'm all for it.
36:48Charlie Eccleshare:But straight off the bat, Charlie, weird to hear Piers Morgan talking directly to Richard Keyes. Yeah, I'm really fascinated by how and why this came up, that Keyes was art. Like, is Piers Morgan kind of oblivious to Keezy's state within football media more generally? Or does he just not care? And he's kind of like, yeah, he's my, you know, he's my mate and I want to get him on. I can't imagine him, you know, Keezy being, it's quite strange. Like, it's quite incongruous for him to be on this. It is a little bit. He is arguably the most tenuous of the three to have on in this panel, Dave. But at the same time, there's not a great deal of texture in this panel, is there really?
37:24Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, I'm not saying they're all the same, but I mean, we could have got a bit more variety. Well, I don't know. I mean, some of the other names there that you mentioned. Yeah, Goldbridge and Prince's. But I think Keezy, I think he's popped up on Piers Morgan's stuff before. They definitely know each other. Their paths will have crossed in their pomp in the 90s for sure. And Piers Morgan certainly isn't going to care, even if he is. I mean, I'm sure he's across everything that happened and he isn't going to care about any of that stuff. Yeah, that's true. Right. Let's focus purely on Keezy for this one, though.
37:53Charlie Eccleshare:Here is Kesey on Cristiano Ronaldo's claims to greatness. And Ronaldo will go there with Portugal. How important is it, do you think, to Ronaldo's legacy, given that Messi has won a World Cup? Does it matter whether Cristiano wins one or not? Can I just say, first of all, Piers, that I thought he was self-effacing, occasionally funny, very honest, a little ego-driven, but then that's all right because we all are. and he certainly threw some big names around. And I'm talking about the interviewer, not Cristiano. I thoroughly enjoyed the interview, really. I don't agree with Henry. I don't think he's got to win.
38:38He won't win the World Cup. Let's get that straight. Portugal are not going to win the World Cup and I don't think he has to win the World Cup to be considered one of the greats. He is without question now. I do agree with Henry that he is one of the top five. but in my five you see I've got a guy called George Best who played in a very different era never went to a World Cup would never ever have dreamt about going with the country that he represented Cristiano has done
39:08Charlie Eccleshare:everything he needs to So some good entry level Kesey here Charlie chucking in a name of his own to ruffle a few feathers just a certain Mr George Best George Best yeah no one really bites though do they they just kind of move on from it quite quickly I mean, I always feel awkward for anybody, Dave, who tries to chuck in some humour on what is essentially a Zoom-based discussion, because you know you've got to nail the timing or it's never going to go down well. Yeah, there is a slight delay there, because Kesey's laughing at, Piers laughing at the joke, and yeah. It also doesn't quite work if I'm being a pedant because he is asked specifically about Cristiano Ronaldo and he says he.
39:46If he wanted to reframe that joke, he could say something like, well, look, I think the man that we all came to watch was da-da-da-da-da, go it that way. But it doesn't quite work, Keezy.
39:54Charlie Eccleshare:Could have workshopped it a bit better. Here is Keezy now on the old wet Wednesday night in Stoke debate. What do you think the core problem is at United? Just to answer the question that we left hanging, Piers, for me at Stoke on a Wednesday against the Tony Poulis team, particularly Cristiano, all day long. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Absolutely. As for Manchester United... So this is the first time in this, Dave, where Kese reiterates that he's nailed his colours to the Ronaldo mast. He's a staunch Ronaldo-man in this debate, isn't he? He always has been. Power. Yeah. Power. Yeah, it's quite weird watching them, and Piers Morgan in particular, watching them talk about this stuff with the sort of same seriousness that he would talk about big political stories.
40:45Gun crime. And whatever it might be. There's no reason for them to be talking about this, other than the fact that he got the interview with Cristiano Ronaldo or whatever. But there's this strange relationship, weird bromance that they've got, him and Ronaldo. The whole thing's a bit weird.
41:00Charlie Eccleshare:Piers Morgan's got into a strange chapter of his existence, actually, Charlie, because he has been sort of slightly over mythologised as a kind of operator. He's really only got one gear, which is why he can treat this topic like any other. He basically, it's that kind of mild, subtle, wind up merchant tone, but with the kind of slightly wide eyes of I can't believe I've got this much attention at the same time. It's basically like deluxe Gary Cotterell. So in this sense, he lends this topic its legitimacy somehow, but it's just great to see the others engaging with it. Well, two things. I mean, I guess one thing, one, just answering the, doing a bit of a Keezy, but answering the previous question as to why Keezy was on, I guess the fact that he is so pro Ronaldo probably appealed to Piers because he was like, well, you know, he's very much on my side.
41:43But yeah, I mean, I have to say like watching, I could only stomach not that much of it, but the actual interview, it's kind of incredible. Like I know if you haven't watched it, like you'll be imagining it's obsequious and sycophantic and horrendous. Like it's unbelievable how much it is of those things. Like he's basically just asking him like, how much money you have? Is it amazing to have that much money? Like, wow, you have so, how many cars do you have? How many planes do you have? Like it's, it's, it's kind of amazing that he's, I don't know. know he's obviously maybe he's lost credibility before but he's obviously just so in awe of cristiano ronaldo that he's willing to make himself look like servile basically just so he can talk to this man who he's clearly like in awe of he has no shame with this sort of stuff that that much is
42:29Charlie Eccleshare:is very much obvious um on the wet wednesday night in stoke thing dave uh piers morgan presents this dilemma to henry winter about who would you trust to score for you a goal for you to save your life on a wet Wednesday night in Stoke? Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi? So Henry Winter starts answering this question and then pivots so elegantly to shoehorning something in about Lou Macari's great community work in Stoke-on-Trent and then gets back to the question. It's the absolute Henry Winter by numbers classy touch. It's just, of course he's going to mention that. Everyone's doing their job perfectly here.
43:04A goal to save your life on a wet Wednesday night in Stoke as well.
43:08Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, what a miserable existence that's going to be. I wonder what predicament it is exactly. Oh, I should have gone with Messi. Fuck. Turns out he was skillful enough to dribble around those defenders. Fucking hell. But the conversation turns to the huge debate, and this is where they bring in social media influencer Emily Austin, about who's hotter, Cristiano Ronaldo or David Beckham. Keyes, are you here? Richard Keyes, you're obviously a fine-looking specimen of a man. do you agree with Ronaldo is he basically in terms of full package the hottest footballer that's ever walked the earth I
43:47my judgement is probably based on David's such a charming individual I mean he's a lovely lovely guy Cristiano I think it's come across during the period of time we've all been together I'm an enormous fan I would have to go So I think he's right, Cristiano. I mean, I look at the other guys on here. I mean, Henry Winter, Henry, Cristiano, David Beckham. Tight. Guillaume Balaguet. You know, I think we're all of the same opinion. You know, Henry, Henry, Henry's got...
44:28Charlie Eccleshare:God, he was struggling there, Dave. to be fair to Keezy there even he is so taken by how tedious this question is that he thinks what can I do to try and make it interesting and move it on into a different area I mean it's ridiculous what are we doing here the look on Winter's face yeah Winter is not enjoying that is he fucking hell I thought Charlie in the grand landscape of masculinity these days I thought we were in a kind of post-modern phase of this where it's perfectly acceptable to discuss about which fellow male is the hottest in the world. But Keyes seems to be really struggling with this on that level, I think.
45:06Charlie Eccleshare:He says, you can't ask me to answer something like that. David's such a good mate that he's got skin in the game, so to speak. I would never have been sure if he was pro-Beckham or not, Dave, actually. But Beckham's done stuff for Qatar, though, hasn't he? So that's the big tick in Keyes' book. But this is the crowning moment for me. Here is Richard Keyes on his fears for Ronaldo post-retirement. Daddy, I keep hearing you talk about Donald Trump as being a unique character. She said, do you think there's such a thing as being too unique? Richard Keyes, you've maintained a stony face. Yeah, well, Richard, you've maintained a stony face since the Trump word was mentioned.
45:45Charlie Eccleshare:You're not a massive fan of the President of the United States. So what did you make of what Cristiano said about him? I agree with Cristiano. I think Trump is more infamous. he will be forgotten far more quickly. I think we will be talking about Cristiano as football people and sports fans for a long, long time to come yet. Just one thing on the interview, Piers, I did want to mention, and by the way, terrific to be serious. It really was. If we had firesides in this part of the world, it's the sort of thing I'd expect to see two guys just sat in front of a fire, relaxed in each other's company, clearly enjoying each other's company.
46:20It's a really, really good watch, but there was just a moment and I think the most illuminating part of it for me was when he said you know I don't want to be famous and I get that I really do understand that because there's an enormous price to pay he talks about his cars 41 cars 42 cars he never drives his cars he can't drive his cars he can't get bread um and it reminds me of a way in what what happened to to Diana
46:50Charlie Eccleshare:oh my god we should have done a little sweepstake on who he was going to mention there i thought for a moment charlie it was gonna it was going to be a story about him about how press intrusion on his life yeah made his life completely intolerable and it was out of out of control but then in came lady die wow but not even called lady die just diana diana i mean spencer he's definitely got a Diana mug from the wedding, 82. You might have been there covering it for local television or something. If you look at some of the blokes that Diana was linked with post-Charles. Will Carling. Like Will Carling, the heart doctor, Dodie himself.
47:30Keezy's sort of in the mix with him, isn't he, really? Imagine. I mean, Will Carling, yeah, famously her suit as well, like Keezy.
47:40Charlie Eccleshare:Not a world away from peak Keezy, actually yeah same sort of avuncular face could handle a red wine or two definitely um just just an astonishing broadcast and the fact that they chucked in your gold bridges your romano's in there it's just just sensational um yeah more of this please this was this was a gift from the from the cliches gods wasn't it dave yeah wow on that note thanks to you charlie eckleshare thank you thanks to you dave walker thank you thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on thursday see you then
48:42We'll be right back. Bet365. If my team goes up big, I get paid out instantly, even if they blow the lead later.
48:49Charlie Eccleshare:Sound familiar, Dale? Bet365. Winning is everything. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. 21 plus only. Must be physically located in Illinois. TNCs apply. In-app only. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18+.
From the publisher
Adam Hurrey is joined on the Adjudication Panel by Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker. On the agenda: Clichés catchphrases in unexpected places, Steve McManaman's accidentally patronising co-commentary, football's earliest proverbial Christmas present, the converging trajectories of Big Dan Burn and Big Dan Ballard, tinpot scenes at the Under-17 World Cup, Tuchel's England get ahead of a classic World Cup issue, and Piers Morgan joining forces with Richard Keys.
Meanwhile, the panel decide the tolerance limit for a big man/small man strike partnership and ask for YOUR help in voting for Football Clichés as the podcast of the year: vote.footballcliches.com
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