Champion flatulence, football punditry sat navs & Sean Dyche X Big Sam

19:55Charlie Eccleshare:welcome back to football cliches a reminder that you can sign up for dreamland for 5.99 a month you're going to get ad-free listening two episodes a month of dreamland our exclusive new show and other benefits as well five episodes out already for dreamland and episode six in the pipeline as well so sign up go to dreamland.footballcliches.com now how this has not happened before i've got no idea it's taken them many episodes to get to this point but sean dice charlie has finally appeared on no tippy tappy football with sam allardyce i mean this is this is this was destiny isn't it yeah i find it so hard to believe sean dice was a premier league manager this year like he already seems to have kind of i mean by doing things like this entered that kind of Allardyce realm.

20:43But he's like a very recent Premier League manager. He could be a Premier League manager again.

20:46Charlie Eccleshare:His Premier League existence has entered the Conte Tuchel handshake phase of time warp. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And part of the reason, Dave, for that sort of increasingly distant concept of Sean Dyche as a Premier League manager is because he keeps giving interviews to various sort of chatty podcasts where he continues to cast scorn over modern football in the way that Sean Dyche sort of enjoys doing, clearly. So we've got a series of clips here, highlights from his appearance on No Tippi Tappi Football. Let's kick things off with his big love, music, of course. Here's Sean Dyche on Oasis. I'm not just saying it.

21:23I swear, I saw him at Netbo, that was the last time I saw him. You know, you just think, because obviously I know a few bands, and it takes a bit like football, it's like a pre-season, it takes a bit of time to get going. They didn't need any time to get going. They just went bang and smashed it, and I thought, fair play. You know, they were terrific.

21:40Charlie Eccleshare:That's actually right up their day with Andy Townsend on for Foo Fighters, I think. But it was a very football-y sort of slap of the hand, so it's bang, straight in there. Fair play. They were right at it. Joggin' he really was at Nebworth? What, back in the day? That would have been a year, if it was in 96. Yeah, so it was just before the Chesterfield run to the FA Cup semis. Wow, what a year that was for Sean Dyche. Yeah, what a year he's having. but the uh the real crux of this appearance was sean dice placing himself uh in the modern landscape of of coaching and uh here he is on young coaches playing the right way and i try and tell young coaches look nowadays you've got to sell this new product right we're all playing the right way and we're all doing this we're all doing that no they're under pressure i know they have to absolutely you're a whopper we all do and you go shut up you know i mean you're not you're not reinventing the wheel but some do it because they have to and you can sense it they're I must have a pressure to sell this mythical, with all these new manner, you know, double pivot, single pivot, inverted wingers.

22:42And then you're like a dinosaur for not using them terms, but we've all heard them a million times, and these guys didn't need to use them. God, it's knackered now, Charlie.

22:49Charlie Eccleshare:It's knackered. Let it go. I don't know, it's just so painfully off the base as well. I mean, there are echoes there, aren't there, of Alan Brazil, that Dean Saunders just sort of trotting things out that are vaguely on the top of his head. Slightly postmodern twist on this particular strand of conversation, Dave, when Sean Dyche couldn't remember the word for terminology and then treated the word terminology as if it was new terminology. Or was it, what they call it, terminology. And Al Dyche would just say, yeah, sayings. Inverted wingers is not a saying. Yeah, yeah. It's a proverb. Next up, here's Sean Dyche singling someone out.

23:30Charlie Eccleshare:Here he is on Andoni Iriola.

24:00Charlie Eccleshare:He is setting the agenda. It's great. But Spanish long ball has completely sent me. I really enjoyed that. It's the old Spanish long ball. Fairly respectful. Charlie, we should try and meet Dyche halfway here. Managers do change the way they sort of coach and set up their teams in response to the conditions that they're playing in, right? So that's all right. I'm all right with that. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure he's got loads of interesting things to say about these managers. And you get a little insight into it there. But that's not really what seems to be, you know, what's wanted from this is for him to just kind of slag them off and say that it's all newfangled nonsense.

24:35Charlie Eccleshare:But Dave, why has he entrenched himself in this just having to prove that the old ways of football are still relevant? What's to be gained from this? I mean, I'm sure we've asked this question before in this podcast, but what is he going to gain from this professionally and personally? It is quite strange because there was a time maybe before he got the Everton job or just as he was starting it, You sort of thought that, right, OK, come on. He did a good job at Burnley and now it is his time to sort of kick on and establish himself at a level up. But obviously it didn't go well there. And it just seems like he's becoming the sort of parody of himself.

25:13You sort of still feel there is more to him than this. He doesn't need to do this.

25:18Charlie Eccleshare:But the weird thing about it, Charlie, is this isn't sort of Keezy-level bitterness of being discarded by football. Because there's no real tangible signs that Dice has been cast aside by football. He's doing it really happily, which in some ways I actually quite respect. He quite enjoys doing this stuff. He hasn't got a chip on his shoulder, really. Do you think, I don't know, I suspect there's an element where he thinks he is a bit undervalued and underrated and sort of dismissed, maybe. OK, on that note then, here is Sean Dyche seeing into the future, seeing how the football landscape is going to change.

25:51I think the big centre forward is coming back round. Definitely. That's what's going to happen. The big centre forward is going to come back round because so many teams defend deep now. You know, low block. There's so many now.

26:02Charlie Eccleshare:There always has to be a dig, doesn't there? Just let it go. But also the funny thing there is he does want to use it and he realises there isn't really a better thing. Or certainly there's not a thing that comes to his mind first than low block. But he has to be suggesting Sam Alley. I'm not using it seriously here. I am taking the piss out of it. Big bold claim from Sean Dyche there, Dave, as well. The number nines are coming back. Oh, I had noticed. Thank you, Sean. Yes. Literally every club is signing one. So yeah. Blimey. Some guy called Erling Haaland. Yeah. Yeah, it was, he really was playing all the hits in this podcast without really getting too into it.

26:36Charlie Eccleshare:But yeah, no new information from Sean Dyche, recycling a lot of stories that he's been telling over the last sort of 18 months or so. But this moment here was the moment where I really thought, right, that is enough Sean Dyche media work for the next decade. But no, you're the first to send me it. You know, it's bizarre. I get that all the time. So utter woke nonsense is your meme. So we've put together a list of things that happen in football these days, and we want to know if you think they are utter woke nonsense or not. I don't even want to play you the five things. It's essentially irrelevant, but don't make Daishi do this.

27:09Charlie Eccleshare:Daishi, don't embrace it either. There should be an agreement. Just leave it behind now. Utter woke nonsense has run its course. I think we can all agree. Does he? Does he enjoy it? Seemingly, yeah. It's definitely not beyond the realms of possibility for him to have a podcast called Utter Work Nonsense in three years time or something. If this next job goes badly. Probably produced by the same people who do this podcast. So not this one. I will do it. Sorry, lads. I'm a bit late. Dyshi's been on at me again. The Wi-Fi. Dyshi's Wi-Fi's let him down again. God, that would actually send you over the edge, wouldn't it?

27:48Charlie Eccleshare:Dyshi's Wi-Fi. Right, let's move on. Jack Watkins has a poser for us, Charlie. He says,

28:05Charlie Eccleshare:I've never really confronted this before in my life. Can you think of a near post nod? The nearest thing I could think of was Alan Shearer opening the scoring for England against Germany at Euro 96. Tony Adams' flick on. It's not quite noddy enough. It's a firm downward header, but it is near post. Yeah. He hasn't really nodded it. I don't know. Yeah, nodding. Get on into the near post. I feel like you just need to do a little bit more than just a nod. Or is it just kind of stealing in at the back post lends itself to it? Yeah. Yeah. Because near post, obviously near post sort of flick-ons and glancing headers are most common because the ball is still travelling fast enough that that's the easiest and best thing to do.

28:43whereas at the back post as was happened at Old Trafford you know something might have happened in the meantime to slow the ball down so you can just quickly pop up and knob one in whereas it's hard to imagine a ball travelling slow enough or at the right trajectory to knob one in at the near post

29:02Charlie Eccleshare:Spot on this is a trajectory issue Charlie the ball's going to arc to the back post and someone's going to be there to just nod it home because that's all you need to do you don't need to impart any more power on the ball you're never going to get that opportunity at the near post It's possible a ball could loop towards the near post and you nod it in. I can't think of a situation where that's happened. It would have to be such terrible marking for that to happen. Because as Dave says, that would be an uninterrupted cross pretty much. It would have to be a cast iron nod as well. I won't have any borderline nods.

29:32Charlie Eccleshare:My mind can't conceive of a footballing scenario where that would happen. If it sort of pops up off a deflection or something. So it's not from a cross, but there's sort of a bit of a scramble. but then the sort of near post happened. The near post then doesn't sort of stop being the near post in a way. Yeah, it could just bobble up and then, you know, everyone's jumping for it and someone just literally gets head on it and that's still technically a nod, but that could be towering. So it's fraught of danger. Craig Laws writes in next, Dave. Luton versus Wigan. The Luton fans singing conference champions, you'll never sing that.

30:02Charlie Eccleshare:The Wigan riposte with FA Cup champions, you'll never sing that. And nor should they, because no one should say FA Cup champions, should they, Dave? No, but I mean, I suppose it's in response to champions. You can see where they've done it. But if they said FA Cup winners, it would be correct. But would it sound weird, though, to chant that? FA Cup winners? Yeah. You'll never sing that. It was still a scam, but yeah, I can see the thinking here. Because it is like, it works better rhetorically as a just, this is a direct response to you. Right. We're just replacing what you're the champions of.

30:35Why are Luton boasting about winning the conference? Is it sort of ironic? Yeah, ironic. And they're sort of proud of their coming back from the injustice of them being relegated in the way they were.

30:44Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, presumably partly like you lot are never going to be down in the conference. You're never going to get the chance to win it. So, yeah, there's pure irony, but disappointed with the Wigan response. Think it through, I would say. We haven't had a good one of these for a while, actually. If X was called Y, Charlie, this is from a Telegraph article about cask beer. Came from Sabrina. English people will go into raptures over food and drink they've discovered in Spain or Italy. yet ignore what's right in front of them. A good friend of mine once argued that cask ale would be more popular if it were called cascale and came from near the mid.

31:17Charlie Eccleshare:And perhaps there's some truth in that. Cascale is great. Yeah, that is really good. I mean, this is a good area to do it on, like, alcohol and food and drink because there probably is something to this, like, you know, how things are branded. Like, it does massively inform what you think of something. Oh, hugely, yeah. But, yeah, that is a funnily extreme. because that's not a brand. I think that's what makes that funny. It's like a whole type of drink. Well, that's the whole thing, isn't it, with Madri, I think. It's brewed in Burton. It's like Carling. It's essentially Carling, isn't it? They just rebranded it Madri and then, you know, it's popular.

31:54Charlie Eccleshare:It's the same thing. I mean, it's a widely lampooned marketing trick, Dave, but I get sucked into it easily. If I'm confronted with six pubs of lager and I'm wanting to make a quick decision, I probably will go for the exotic sounding one. I'll go for a Cruz Campo all day long. Because in my head, it'll be like, well, I'm sort of on holiday a bit. I'm getting suckered into it really easily. I don't mind to admit it at all. Not that you like the taste of it. You just want to think that you're on holiday. Absolutely no idea what it tastes like. Not so clear. Couldn't tell you. Blind test. They'd all taste the same thing.

32:27Charlie Eccleshare:Cruz Campo a bit sweeter, I think. Is it? Right. Yeah. Right. Lovely little key, easy sign off to this, by the way, Dave. When they say, yeah, if it were called Cascale and came from near the Med, and there's definitely some truth in that look at the baffling popularity of Peroni

32:45Charlie Eccleshare:bafflingly popular like a goalkeeper he's not doing it for Kesey because he can play out from the back but he can't stop them going in this Peroni baffling what would Kesey's beer of choice be you know I think it could be Peroni though I can imagine him I mean literally the only reason I'm saying this is because Alan Brazil used to I've seen him drink a lot of Peroni's. For some reason, that was always his, probably still is, his beer of choice. A crisp European lager for Kesey. Because Peroni's often found in like hotel lobbies. It's quite corporate. That sort of place where he could sort of, I could imagine Kesey's probably not going down the boozer when he gets to England.

33:24He's probably going to be in somewhere that he feels is a little bit quieter.

33:28Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, just quietly sipping away at one of those smaller versions of the Peroni glass, crucially, not the big hefty ones. Yeah. It's tall but small. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, in a hotel lobby all the way. Just waiting for Gray to come down. Just waiting for Andy. With his iPad. You okay? You okay? Ready to go? Reading the mail on his iPad. Yeah, and then screenshotting it and tweeting it. Yes. We were talking on Tuesday's episode, Dave, about the concept of managers saying, I think we've seen the champions there and how early in the season you could make that declaration after you've just lost to a team.

34:01Charlie Eccleshare:Jack Schenker writes in and says, we've referenced to this. Can I please draw your attention to Gareth Ainsworth's post-match interview after my beloved QPR loss 4-0 to Watford on the opening day of the 23-24 season? We conceded the first golo after 35 seconds despite having taken kick off ourselves. And one of the very first things he says is this. Listen, I thought there were some positives in there, second half especially. But that first half we were ripped apart. We don't know whether we've just played the league winners, you know. They're a good side. They look a real good side. Reasonably textbook way of delivering it.

34:33Charlie Eccleshare:but Dave Watford went on to finish 15th in the championship. Who does that reflect worse on? I remember it well. We weren't very good that season and neither were they. I think he got sacked a few months later. QPR and Watford, Charlie Cousins? Are they in the Cousins category? I don't think so because... He's not enjoying that at all. Yeah, they're two different sort of Premier League eras in my mind. There's not enough overlap when they're both sort of knocking around and interchangeable. We are. They're both quite distinct. I think they are technically the closest club to us geographically in the championship.

35:11Okay. In the championship. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is just about. But I know what you mean. But we are sort of similar. Like we played them just this weekend, just gone. And I was in a pub beforehand that I usually go to. And for some reason, there were loads of QPR fans there. But they weren't not like being boisterous or anything. But they were just sort of, if they didn't have a QPR badge on them, they could have easily been Watford fans.

35:32Charlie Eccleshare:are basically the same people. QPR, Palace, Watford, all cousins and second cousins, definitely. Right, Tom W writes in next, Charlie. He says, with the mention of past as new, the phrase that was posed of Vito Pereira to some brief befuddlement, I was reminded of this absolute gem from the at-the-time Barnsley manager, Darrell Clark, who, while stumbling over his words, produced a magnificent mangling of this particular idiom. And, you know, players, all players want to play Saturday at three o 'clock. They all want to be in the team, but you can only cater for them a certain amount and we have a squad that's probably too big.

36:05Some fringe players get a little bit frustrated with lack of game time and not showing me enough to get the game time as well to be honest with you and they have to pasteurise new clubs to kickstart their career. And that's absolutely astonishing. How has that happened?

36:25Charlie Eccleshare:Pasteurising. There's no way he thinks that's a genuine stumbling over words there's no way that he thinks pasteurising is No, of course not. Finding yourself some new pastures. That's really good. Pasteurising. They need to pasteurise. I'm going to pasteurise if that's all right. Got an early start tomorrow, so I'm just going to pasteurise. Bloody hell. Brilliant. Inexplicable, really. Louis Pasteur will be turning in his grave. Yeah. Ben Brindle with the next conundrum for us, Dave, says, What's the most times a player or team can do something at the time of asking? I heard a first and a second in the Ipswich versus Southampton game, but maybe third works too.

37:05Charlie Eccleshare:I think you could convert a penalty at the second time of asking. If you scored on the rebound, that's the second time of asking. Is that fair? In the same penalty, in the second time of asking. Yeah. I thought you meant that if you'd taken two penalties in a game. But yeah, I guess so. I'm open to it. What about if you were Martin Palermo, and you were stepping up for your third penalty in that famous game? If you'd scored that, that would have been the third time of asking. That's the third time of asking. Yeah. What's the maximum number of askings you can have, Charlie, in any scenario? Outside of football as well.

37:38And it's the seventh time of asking. Yeah.

37:41Charlie Eccleshare:Well, I mean, Charlie, the one aspect of football that probably doesn't really have a distinct upper limit for times of askings is when you win your first game of the season. So they've won at the 13th time of asking. Yeah, that's true. I mean, there's no obvious limit for the number of askings there, but you've never had that in a game, would you? you never have a specific act from a player you're probably fourth at most I mean even fourth for an individual player I mean that's just begging, that's nagging it's annoying what about if a player finally breaks their duck or scores in a home game for the first time or something at the seventh time of asking but I don't know, it might sound a bit weird and finally scores if it's become a quite well documented thing how many games this player's played without scoring or something.

38:28And finally, at the 10th time of asking, Peter Crouch scores for Liverpool or something.

38:32Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, weirdly. I like it for players in an individual game, Dave. I like it for teams across the season, but I don't like it for players across the season. It feels like the phrase doesn't work. Yeah. I don't know. He's finally getting his first goal for his new club at the 8th time of asking. It doesn't quite sit right, does it? Because there's too much that's gone on. 7.90 minutes, it's too simplistic to sum it up. A lot of asking. Simply, there's the 8th time of asking. Yeah. Finally, Charlie, James Dean writes in and says, Just watching Super Sunday and Dave Jones says that Brentford were caught cold just before half-time for Forrest's third goal.

39:05Charlie Eccleshare:I always thought that caught cold was a lapse of concentration in the early parts of the game as if you haven't done your warm-up properly. Surely just before half-time is way too late to be caught cold. Plus the fact they were already 2-0 down, so third goal conceded is definitely out of contention for a caught cold. Adjudication, please. I don't think that there's a time limit on this. I think it's very localised at the moment. You were caught unawares. It's not that you weren't warmed up. It's just that it's like a sucker punch. Well, I was going to say it feels more sucker punch than caught cold.

39:35And almost to the point where I wonder if that's what Dave Jones sort of was reaching for when he said caught cold. Because I know what James means. Caught cold typically is more of a kind of early on when they just don't really look set. I think this is more of a sucker punch situation. Completely. Yeah, you can't be caught cold just before half-time when you're already 2-0 down. I completely agree with James. I don't see how it works because it's pretty literal, the meaning of this. You are literally like, you're not up to speed yet. You've been caught cold. So the start of the second half would sort of work as well.

40:11They've been caught cold after the restart. Yeah, just before half-time. They should be at their warmest. They are at their warmest in this half just before half-time.

40:18Charlie Eccleshare:That's fine. I mean, I completely accept all of those things. I just thought caught cold. Caught cold was a completely universal thing. It could be used in any minute because I thought it's really localised to the moment. Okay, Dave, just to illustrate this, what do you think is the classic scenario for a defence being caught cold? What kind of goal are we talking about? You could get caught cold within a game from a set piece, from a throw-in, if you're not switched on at a throw-in. Massive. Yeah, so it's all about switching off. That's a mental thing. Yeah, but I think the sort of platonic ideal of this is early on, you're caught cold by like the opposition team is passing it backwards and then just kind of launches one forward and your defense isn't really set because they're not sort of up to the speed of the game and suddenly someone's running in behind and scored do you know it's a good court cold you know you remember that Pedro goal against United uh in a 4-0 win for Chelsea would have been like October 2016 look it up listeners there's a ball that's kind of hopeful and De Gea and I think Smalling and maybe even another defender are almost thinking like ah it's too early in the game nothing's gonna happen oh fuck he's through and has scored it's a perfect court call because it's just like we're not set we're just not thinking you're gonna score in the first 20 seconds or whatever and that you think that goal could just couldn't have existed in any other phase of the match realistically it's a very early stages kind of goal right yeah if you look at the goal it just looks uh everything about it looks early in the game i'm so resigned dave to the listeners completely agree with you two here i've conceded defeat on this now i've had too many L's about this sort of thing recently but um I just think you could be caught cold at any point I do I really do only specifically as you've just said if it's if it's from a throw in maybe a corner but definitely like a or a quick free kick or something like that in a yeah in a game you could you can localize the court coldness in that moment but but not in the way that Dave Jones is using it here like a general sort of oh and Brent Brentford have just been caught cold and they've as they've conceded their third, but just before half-time.

42:12He's clearly not talking about a specific incident there, is he?

42:16Charlie Eccleshare:So, to rubber stamp this, Charlie, you definitely can't be caught cold for a third goal that you've conceded in a half. You're already... I don't think so. I think it sounds odd. Okay. Unless he was sort of referring more generally to it being the first game of the season. They're still, you know, they've been... Yeah. It's half-time. You're riding it out to a season now. Half-time in the first game of the season and they're 3-0 down. Yeah, because over the course of the season... They are still cold. It's a fraction of the season's gone after only half the first game. You can't be caught late to a game.

42:45It's very early. But it's cold.

42:46Charlie Eccleshare:Is that not allowed? Right, OK, fine. Well, ending on a controversial note, but I respect both of your strong opinions and indeed James Dean's on this. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you. Thanks to you, Dave Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.

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