Co-commentary cues, flopping full-backs & the "one of our own" threshold, with Lucy Ward

9:24Lucy Ward:I'm not a huge cheese guy, but the cheese I do eat feels reasonably consistent. I mean, I guess if you are a big cheese connoisseur and you're eating quite fancy cheeses where I guess there's more variability there, maybe they are quite inconsistent. If you're sort of shopping high end.

9:42Tom Williams:What, you mean sort of variance in quality between the brands or over time, if you leave it out?

9:47Lucy Ward:Between the different brands or, you know, between those ones that can be like incredibly pungent but done right are absolutely delicious, but done a little bit wrong and they're kind of disgusting.

9:57Tom Williams:Luce, what have you let yourself in for?

10:00Michael Cox:yeah do you know it's that is really strange because it's like sometimes when you're on live tv right your mind just goes blank and you just say so i have plenty of times you just finish off a sentence where you don't really know what you're going to say when you started it you don't know how you're going to finish it and i think that he was in that position where he's used piece of cheese in some other conversation and so he said i'm just going to pick piece of cheese cheese out for this why else would you say a piece of cheese my word absolutely lucrous um

10:27Tom Williams:Jack Pierce did offer the follow-up question of what is the most consistent cheese and which trio of cheeses would form the best back three. But that's beneath us, Jack Pierce. And you know that we would never do that on this podcast. We haven't got time for that. Not today. David G writes in next, Charlie, in regards to a conversation we had the other day about how if you can't watch your team play, you feel like you have no control over their fortunes and therefore they're more likely to lose. He says, I was totally convinced of this years ago. I was also convinced that the chances of my team winning increased massively when I watched the game in my own living room as opposed to the pub or someone else's house.

11:00Tom Williams:My wife would dismiss me out of hand when I would suggest it. It got to the stage where I created a backdated spreadsheet where I put in my location and the result. It came out pretty much 50-50 over the season and previous season, much to my dismay. However, I still believe my location has an effect on the result even though I have no evidence to back up this claim and I don't admit it out loud anymore. I'm so happy. what a great resolution to this that it came out 50 50 it's quite funny that it just got completely

11:26Lucy Ward:um you know debunked that one person's location has zero correlation with with results yeah i've been thinking about this a lot though it's like and i think it's you know it doesn't matter that it obviously deep down we all know it doesn't make any difference but we feel like it does and and that's the important thing i mean i've had this before you know when um teams will turn around um a team uh so they're shooting the other end and whatever and it's like oh that's really annoying they're shooting that end rather than shooting to us because you know again you feel like that does make a difference but then you're like oh but at least in the second half we don't have it so the opposition are attacking the other end because that's incredibly nerve-wracking if they're the far end and we can't see it like that to me is like the equivalent of listening to a game on the radio whereas shooting towards you is like tv and and in the same way you feel like you've got a little bit more control with TV rather than radio, or at least I would anyway.

12:21Lucy Ward:Radio's way too out of your control and stressful.

12:23Tom Williams:Lucy, if there was any evidence, further evidence required that you're not on Guardian Football Weekly here, it's our listeners creating spreadsheets of where they watch football games. I mean, do you fear for humanity sometimes?

12:35Michael Cox:Do you know what? It is that you think every single person who supports a team has their own, either wear a certain T-shirt or they put the socks on a certain way, thinking that that somehow will affect the team's results. And, you know, probability, the fact that it came out 50-50 tells you that probability is actually a thing and maths is a thing. I am a little bit of a maths geek and a science geek, so that sort of tells me everything.

12:59Tom Williams:This is good. We've got more on that coming up, actually. But you know what? Charlie, I've never really been on board with the kind of clothes-based kind of superstitions. I feel like that's the sort of thing that kind of like, I don't know, like football betting adverts imply that football fans do all the time. But I've never been a lucky socks kind of guy. I don't know why

13:17Lucy Ward:I've not done that but tennis is a really superstitious sport to watch and I do remember as a kid I would you know like I'd find a position where I was watching and then that my player was sort of going on a good run so I'm not going to move like it's going well here I can't really move but yeah I've never done the clothes thing I don't think

13:33Michael Cox:I'll tell you what I've done fellas like when my partner Neil Redfern was in charge of Leeds United and it was quite stressful being a partner I've taken many roles in football WAG being one of them and obviously the role that I'm very good at. They were playing away. I used to hide behind a settee sort of and then not even listen to the games just in case that they didn't win. It's that stressful. So I can understand a personal thing when it's that personal that you're desperate for them to win that sitting in a certain position and the last time you did that, that they won, there's all sorts go on.

14:05Tom Williams:Oh, wow. So your paranoia flipped it so much that you couldn't watch it and therefore you felt that was more likely they were going to win. Incredible how the football brain works. That's amazing. Yeah, exactly. Next up, excellent title, 7-8-9-5 writes in Charlie and says, I've been thinking about the save of the season contenders, having watched this season's potential winner by Jordan Pickford against Newcastle at the weekend. Theoretically, if a keeper pulls off the craziest save you've ever seen, but the other team scores from the rebound, can it still be a contender? What if they push it wide, but someone puts the loose ball back in the box and it gets finished three seconds later?

14:40Tom Williams:Where's the cutoff? I actually can't imagine a save of the season being awarded for something that essentially results in a goal half a second later.

14:48Lucy Ward:Yeah, that is true, though. I think it should. I don't think that should exempt it. No. Because you're talking about the save itself and the save is still an unbelievable save, even if it ultimately, you know, they score from the rebound. Obviously, unless there's an expectation that they could have done more with the save and sort of keep it more out of harm's way. But in the assumption that just the keeping it out is sort of miraculous, I think that should stand alone. It shouldn't be so outcome based.

15:17Tom Williams:I feel like save of the season, it hasn't really sort of caught on Lucy as a kind of, you know, landmark thing of a season. Does anybody really keep track of this sort of stuff? I feel like everyone's just going to go, oh, yeah, that Pickford one.

15:28Michael Cox:Yeah, I'm not sure they do, but that's just because people pay very little attention to goalkeepers apart from ex-goalkeepers. I've found are the ones that I work with. Nobody understands goalkeepers apart from the ex-goalkeepers. You can't commentate on goalkeepers and what they do. But yeah, I do think that if you save it and it goes in anyway, then nobody ever considers that. And the best ones are when a keeper saves it, but the referee gives a goal kick. And so the keeper is like, yes, I've just done a brilliant save, but I can't even show it in my face because the referee's not given a corner.

16:01Michael Cox:He's given a goal kick.

16:03Tom Williams:Would you say you're firmly strikers union then? I mean, how much do you subscribe to that?

16:08Michael Cox:Absolutely. I think, well, what happened towards the end of my career, I started playing as a centre-back and it was so much easier than playing up front because obviously so much easier. So I have lived experience, right, of the two. So of the two, a striker is so much more difficult because you've got to make things happen as a centre-back. You just respond to what the striker does and try and anticipate, which is a hell of a lot easier. as you can see quite a lot of centre-backs just head it and kick it particularly at lower levels and that is perfect so I was quite good at just heading and kicking it and um and it's it is difficult to score goals so I have lived experience so I think I'm right on that one.

16:45Tom Williams:I'm so glad you said this it is easier being a centre-back I'm completely convinced of this and is it the primary reason of it is because you just love having the game entirely in front of you whereas when you're up front everything's behind you?

16:55Michael Cox:Probably the easiest position to play depending on what foot you are is right back or left back because everything and down this side doesn't really matter about that it's just the crowd you could just sort of see everything so i think that that if you're in the middle it's so much different from from being where it's like i used to say to the girls it's like watching it on tv at the back here's playing center back it's like i'm just watching i don't feel like i'm involved in it because like just get on with it you know

17:19Tom Williams:charlie there's strikers union and then there's just slagging off every other position on the

17:22Lucy Ward:pitch isn't there yeah exactly center back trying to spread disunity among center backs Yeah, terrible.

17:30Tom Williams:Finally, this came from Ethan Nichols, and he was watching Crystal Palace versus Rinsky Mostar on TNT Sports the other day, and he says there was a conversation that went on too long between commentator Adam Somerton and co-commentator Don Hutchison. I'm almost tempted there to say he's put it on a sixpence, but young kids might know who that is. What's one of them? I don't know. Now, here's Mikic.

17:54Lucy Ward:Oh, he's found the room for the shot, but then... Yeah, going to have to come up with a new phrase, that instead of the sixpence i'll leave that one with you just doesn't sound like does it he's put it put it on the pound coin yeah it needs a bit of work it does

18:17Tom Williams:fascinated by the concept of the sixpence lucy i mean it is i mean we're talking about 50 years ago now the sixpence was in circulation um do you can you see why it's kind of stayed on as a thing and also which footballing situation demands the sixpence more turning on the ball or putting

18:34Michael Cox:putting a cross right on the money I think sixpence has stayed just like you say something like we say man on when we when we played football we said man on even though it's not a man it's a woman you wouldn't say woman on so I think there's certain phrases that sort of um get make their way through football and don't really change but that's interesting Don and Adam they work together so so much that sometimes you end up having a conversation you'd have you know over a cup of actually on air and Adam loves all that. Adam is a proper geek and I love him to bits, but he is. Have you had him on here?

19:04Michael Cox:Because he is, honestly, he would fit in with this absolutely brilliantly.

19:08Tom Williams:I'm really warming to the idea of him coming on this show based on that conversation alone, Charlie. Honestly, it's amazing.

19:13Lucy Ward:He'll get it. I mean, that was almost a come and get me plea. It really was.

19:16Tom Williams:But what worried me was that Don Hutchison took the moment where Mostar were kind of on the counterattack, Charlie. And I thought, he's going to run out of time here to be able to get it out. But luckily, they reverted to it, which I'm really glad. The proposal was, Charlie, that a pound coin could become the new sixpence when it comes to kind of precision with crosses and long passes. But I've done my research on this. And the old sixpence versus the new pound coin, well, it's a tight affair. The old sixpence had a diameter of 19.41 millimetres. The new pound coin in circulation since 2017 has a diameter from point to point of the dodecagon of 23.43 millimetres.

19:54Lucy Ward:The iconic dodecagon.

19:56Tom Williams:Exactly. So what you're looking at here is a surface area of 295.9 millimetres versus 411.7 millimetres, which makes it a 39.1 % bigger target for modern footballers. They've got it too easy these days.

20:12Lucy Ward:That's too big an increase. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting as well to make this change, as you say, so long after the sixpence has been in circulation and at a time where, you know, currency has never been less used. The youth of today with their cards and tapping of mobile phones probably don't even know what money is.

20:30Tom Williams:Exactly. So, Lucy, if you are sort of inclined to take Don Hutchinson's lead and change it to a pound coin, please bear in mind that it is a bigger coin and therefore is easier for modern footballers to hit.

20:42Michael Cox:That is brilliant. And do you know what? It's just make it easier for modern footballers and everything's easier for modern footballers, isn't it? Even the 30 % or whatever it was increases surface area.

20:52Tom Williams:Nicer pitches, bigger proverbial coins. it's no good right that takes the adjudication panel to a close we'll be back very shortly with Meza Harland-Dix with Lucy Ward

21:24Lucy Ward:Also, those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EbGliss, Librikizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EbGliss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EbGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.

21:52Lucy Ward:Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBCLIS. Before starting EBCLIS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about EBCLIS and visit ebglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. I'm R.J. Decker, a private investigator uncovering the sunshine state's darkest secrets. Tuesday, it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show. R.J. freaking Decker as I live and breathe. He's a private eye. It's not a standard murder. It's someone bigger. And a public mass.

22:27Lucy Ward:Trying to get someone back to prison today? You go to prison one time and suddenly it's all the jokes. R.J. Decker, series premiere, Tuesday on ABC and stream on Hulu.

22:39Michael Cox:We all have that dream trip we've been wishing we could go on. But too often, life, or usually price, gets in the way.

22:47Tom Williams:That's why Priceline is here to help you turn your dream trip into reality. With up to 60 % off hotels and up to 50 % off flights, you can book everything you need for your next adventure.

22:58Lucy Ward:Don't just dream about that next trip. Book it with Priceline. Download the Priceline app or visit Priceline.com and book your next trip today. Go to your happy price. Priceline. Oh, look at that. That is wonderful. Wonderful.

23:18Tom Williams:Welcome back to Football Clichés. We've done the adjudication panel now with Lucy Ward of TNT Sports Fame. It's time for Mesut Haaland Dix. You've selected your three footballing fascinations and irritations for us, Lucy. Could you tell us about your first fascination, please?

23:32Michael Cox:My first one is obviously because I worked quite a lot in an academy and I absolutely love, and it doesn't have to be the club I worked at, but young players making their debuts because everybody watches it and thinks, oh, a young player, that's brilliant. But when I look at it, I see the absolute years of work of parents bringing them to and from the academy, three, four, five times a week. You know, the fact that they've had to earn a contract each time, you know, each year from like nine years old. And then they've got to get a scholar and then they've got to get a pro. And the work that goes into that from various people, including the young player, is incredible.

24:10Michael Cox:So to see a young player make his debut, it just fills me with joy. and there's so many times that I've done commentary in Europe, particularly Chelsea last season where young players were making the debuts and it's just like the amount of people that'll be watching that, most of them in tears, most of them is like, isn't he amazing? He's actually making his debut. He's incredible. And it's just everything that goes on in the background that allows this kid to step onto the pitch as a professional footballer and the percentage failure and that's what it is of players who don't get to do that and then might not do it another 10 times or another 20 times.

24:45Michael Cox:It's difficult to comprehend, I think.

24:47Tom Williams:You know, in case we didn't think there was enough pressure on a young player making his debut when they get told like 24 hours before by the manager, when they get pulled aside, you're making your debut tomorrow, son. And then it turns out there's a whole village of people whose hopes and dreams depend on them as well. I didn't think, but I hadn't really considered this aspect of it.

25:02Lucy Ward:I think it's one of the most enduring great things about being like a fan is when a player comes through from the academy. Like it does, it's such a unifying thing. It makes a really big difference. Like with Spurs, you know, one of the theories or one of the many reasons why things have, you know, there's such a disconnect between fans and the players is for the first time in so long, they haven't had like an academy graduate playing for them regularly. And just having one player at least as a kind of link between the fans and the players can make a really big difference. Obviously, it helps if that player is Harry Kane and like the best player in the world.

25:34But, you know, even like a Harry Winks

25:36Lucy Ward:or an Oli Skip or someone like that. Like he says, there are so many people who are going to be like bursting with pride at that player making their debut.

25:45Michael Cox:It's also like when you go back into the training ground after a player has made their debut, everybody is buzzing. So the people in the canteen, in the restaurant, the ground staff, everybody's buzzing. The kids come in and it's like, yes, and then there's another name on the board. Honestly, it absolutely makes everybody buoyant. I mean, training grounds are buoyant places regardless, even if you're not winning all the time because they have to be like full of banter. But that sort of, you know, the senior players think it's wonderful and they're great with the lad. house parents that the kids are staying with you know the drivers that drive them around you literally there is a whole village I always used to say it takes a training ground to make a player and that just includes all those sort of players.

26:26Tom Williams:It sounds like you mentioned pretty much every kind of member of a typical club's hierarchy there but on a quick tangent have you ever in your many years involved all the various rungs of a football club have you ever encountered an actual tea lady do they exist?

26:39Michael Cox:You actually have the the the people that work behind the canteen that invariably turn mostly women, but not always. But I think that's what they're talking. And you know what? The reason they say the tea lady, the reason they say is because these people are so important because they're there on a morning serving you breakfast. They're there to sort of, you know, chat about things that are not important, you know, that are not football. And it's just what settles everybody down and keeps everybody grounded. So that is why they always say laundry person, tea lady, because it's those are the sort of people who will, For instance, I'll give you a really, really good example.

27:16Michael Cox:When I was working for the Premier League, I was in the canteen at Man United. The players had just gone, they were playing an away game, and David De Gea walked into the canteen and the woman went, David, what are you doing here? And he went, oh, I've got, you know, I've got. And she went, who's going to play it net now? And that just, that was just, I just thought that was brilliant. She's just like, who's playing it net now? You're stood in the canteen. so it's just you know it's that sort of thing and it's that sort of grounding where it's just like what what you're doing here who's you know who's putting gloves on tonight because you're you're so and that is the the level and that's the grounding that I think all the players need that you've got local people within those roles who just keep your feet on the ground.

27:56Tom Williams:I love the idea that everyone is kind of emotionally invested in a young player's debut all the way down all the way down the kind of ladder at a football club but you were you were head of education at welfare at Leeds for 17 years and what a sort of fascinating era for young players coming through that would have been because to pick one example very prominent example would be James Milner and it seems such an easy question to say and I think you've been asked this already but did you ever imagine when you saw this kid at 16 years old that he would go on to play nearly 14 ,000 fewer minutes than Gareth Barry in the Premier League?

28:31Michael Cox:James Milner was the only comparable player that's come through and bearing in mind I've seen thousands of good ones that play for England like Delph and Calvin Phillips the only other comparable in terms of attitude was Lewis Cook and the issue that Lewis Cook's had is that he's had a lot of injuries but he was basically a James Milner in the waiting but James was the original Jim Bob the original every other lad that was called James was named Jim Bob after after him and that was just my sort of strange teacher sort of thing but he he was very different he you know he was he was athletically very strong from sort of 13 14 so he was always playing at an age above every single coach that had him knew that he was you know that had the right attitude but again it's opportunity you know he gets in the the first team at Leeds and it's under the most ridiculous time 10 years after that he then had to be sold I think he played under three or four head coaches before he was you know he played his first couple of seasons but he was just a winner competitive humble prepared to give himself for the team and everybody said everything about James but um yeah nothing nothing would have

29:37Tom Williams:surprised me about that boy yeah um Charlie one of the things that is cited most about these players who've come through and made a success of themselves is this kind of mentality that they had as a kid I often wonder kind of how does this manifest itself I mean I mean you work for the Athletic you know perfectly well how these sort of origin stories begin they you know he was just different like he had this kind of steely mentality um i just wonder how this manifests itself on a

29:58Lucy Ward:day-to-day basis on the training ground like what are they like back then it was different but i know one of the things that you know that's often said about like oh he'd be out practicing for hours after training nowadays it's all regulated really carefully to stop players from doing that like you wouldn't be able to do that nowadays in quite the same way as you used to but that but that's the classic one that you know you hear about harry kane was that he would just be working at his shooting. Again, you know, just constant repetitions, right foot, left foot, that sort of thing. So, yeah, I guess that's kind of a typical one.

30:30Tom Williams:Another player that you encountered at Leeds was Tom Kearney, Lucy, who got released purportedly for being too small. Does this really happen? Like, this is sort of, this is a fabled thing, but does it actually happen?

30:43Michael Cox:Basically, I thought of myself as a voice of reason. And because there's not many females doing my job um they didn't tend to have females around because the only females that these players encountered was a mother or matriarchal figure or somebody they met in a nightclub now social media they didn't ever have this role model of females we had like a female head of snc and we had a female physio and there was me as well and so there was quite a nice little respect around females and i used to say to the coaches that i remember them saying they were going to release him and i was like he's still a child he's still look at his dad he's still a child so he's still got to grow oh he can't get about the he can't get about the pitch it's like yeah but he's got like get pickles out of a jar with his left foot so you know what what anyway nobody listens nobody listens to me and they released him and then everybody blamed everybody else about it wasn't my fault that we released uh tom kearney's dad was absolutely fuming in fact his mom and dad live up the street from me there's niche i speak to them all the time but i remember his dad at the time absolutely fuming and I don't blame him because they released him because he's he obviously was still a child and rather than you know under 16 he still hadn't grown and now he's like six foot

31:52Tom Williams:two which is absolutely hilarious um Charlie I feel like you know in the era of sports science and things like that the phrase look at his dad should just trump all of that and club should

32:02Lucy Ward:just go with that his dad's massive I'm glad it wasn't again my dad's like five foot eight I'm about six foot one so I'm glad I didn't get that that would have been really you know that that would have been really unfair on a young man.

32:13Tom Williams:Too lanky, got released for being too lanky, did you?

32:15Lucy Ward:He's too tall of anything.

32:18Tom Williams:Right, great start. Lucy, tell us about your second fascination of football, please.

32:21Michael Cox:So the last few years, I've done a lot of European games and the ultras in European away crowds. And you basically got one stand that is the ultras or the majority of them, the ones that do the singing from like an hour and a half before kickoff. So I'm talking, we We went to Legia Warsaw in, I think it was in Copenhagen or Stockholm. And you have the people on a platform at the front, do not watch the game. They face towards the crowd. They have a loud hailer. They have a drum. And there's two or three of them. And they have no idea what's happening in the game, but they orchestrate from minute one to the end without stopping, regardless of the score.

32:58Michael Cox:And I just think that that is absolutely wonderful. And every time I go to an away, and I go to some proper places, you know like places that i didn't even know existed zirinski for instance last week in bosnia which was a great place to visit the ultras were that i couldn't see them properly because they were on my side because they were doing the they'd been redoing the stand for about 25 years opposite and it's not been finished yet and so i couldn't see them but i saw them at the end and they all stood at the end and they all filed out about 25 minutes after kickoff and i thought they were coming towards us as english people but they weren't they just went past do you know what

33:34Tom Williams:Charlie, you know, Crystal Palace is kind of approximated kind of version of ultras aside. Do you feel like this, you know, specifically continental thing could ever catch on in English football? I mean, I mean, we talk we've talked about the superstition of someone not watching the game. Maybe you could literally just sort of, you know, become a professional game.

33:51Lucy Ward:Well, since you're not watching anyway, would you mind just sort of like getting getting those who are watching going? That would be really useful. Yeah, I think there are just different rhythms, though, aren't there? Like you watch when European teams come and play in England, for instance, that there's like a constant noise that fans of English teams just don't generate. I think, you know, and I'm sort of torn. Like, I think it's kind of cool in a way, but I don't know. It lacks the sort of chanting element that I do think is really great, you know, because it's just a kind of constant background din.

34:26Lucy Ward:And after a while, it kind of washes over you.

34:28Tom Williams:Lucy, in 2026, do you think that these people are now the core demographic for the purchase of megaphones? Like, who else needs a megaphone these days other than these people conducting 5 ,000 maniac fans?

34:42Michael Cox:But they only, like, shout out about five words that obviously I don't understand. And then they go into this song that lasts for, like, you know, a minute and a half. It's like, this must take some practice somewhere. Do they get in a field somewhere? I don't know. But they've got it off to a T. Unbelievable, yeah. I want a loud halo just because I can shout from downstairs up to upstairs to Neil to get him to do something. But yeah, but he would say that my voice is already like, Pingo, I don't even need one.

35:10Tom Williams:You really should have a good grasp of Bosnian if you're going to work on TNT Sports, I'm afraid. Yeah, I don't. Just to illustrate perhaps the difference in ingrained fan culture in that kind of context. you were at the Bournemouth Arsenal game in January and you tweeted that you just saw someone in the crowd at Bournemouth cover their face while talking to the person next to them. Hashtag games gone. Do you think like, what kind of tactical knowledge do you think that they were imparting about that game? Was it Bournemouth fans?

35:42Michael Cox:Do you know what? I don't know who it was, but it was so fun. I was like watching it and thinking, I wasn't commentating on it, I was watching it. And I was thinking, they know that they're on TV because they're taking a throw in and they've covered them. I was like, what on earth are you saying? But this is how. Footballers don't just affect young boys and young girls. They affect bully-grown adults who sit there. Honestly, I was like, what on earth is going on?

36:07Tom Williams:The ego on this person, Charlie, to think that they must be on screen and therefore we're going to want to know what they're going to say.

36:13Lucy Ward:That is crazy. And imagine how much they would have to be saying for anyone to care. It's one thing, if you're an elite footballer and obviously every word you say is going to be poured over, But like, you'd have to say something utterly extraordinary for it to be lip read and have any consequence. Yeah, I don't think your views on like Antoine Semenyo leaving the club are really going to move the dial.

36:35Tom Williams:Right then, Lucy, let's hear about your third and final fascination of football, please.

36:39Michael Cox:So my last fascination with football is when you do co-commentary, you have certain roles within the game. And my bit after a goal is on the first replay of the goal. So the goal goes in, the commentator does his bit. Meanwhile, and obviously like at this point, it doesn't affect me personally because none of them are my team. So all I'm thinking is I watch the replay that's already showing and then I'm thinking about what to say. But it's marvellous because you're watching people around you. You're watching the reaction of the players. You're thinking about what. So for one, it's joyous. but two there's nothing like that little bit of live tv where you've got to say because these are the bits that are on the clip and that's what the commentators are aware of their voice so you've got to say something good and so i think that sort of pressure situation i just love it one it's a goal and two that it just puts you right under pressure straight away i talk me through the kind of

37:38Tom Williams:industry standard process here because you know as we've established you've done 152 games with adam somerton um but what's it taught you about that specific period of time between and a goal in the replay? Like, what's the rhythm there? Like, do you basically, as you say, you're letting the commentator kind of do their job. Are you basically gathering some kind of steam there? Do you know exactly the moment you want to come in?

37:58Michael Cox:The commentator will, when the goal goes in, it's da-da-da-da, and then sometimes, depending on which commentator, they let the crowd noise come in for a few seconds. So you'll notice that the crowd noise comes in and then they'll go, one-nil, it's an equalizer, da-da-da-da, he's not scored since, blah-da-da-da. And then the director will leave a specific amount of time, which you just, usually get used to the rhythm of it and then as the first replay comes in that's when i'll start talking and i will talk for as long as i've i've got but usually for three four um five replays but if when i then stop and there might be another replay of a different angle coming than the commentator comes in so it's a it's very much a rhythm you get used to when you come in and most of my stuff will be on replays and and you only notice when the director doesn't get the timing right is if I'm then waiting I start speaking and they haven't put the replay in but you get used to the different directors as well if that so if I'm doing it off tube and it's the world feed and it's a world feed director that I've got no contact with then I've got to guess when he's gonna and if he's a European one they wait a little bit longer before they put the first replay so I'm going oh what a ball that was from so and so what a ball what a ball what a ball what a ball what a ball oh we've seen the ball ball yeah so you you've got a you've got to try and guess when they'll bring the replay in and that is but it's all just the whole bit is joyous but also it's a lot of pressure because what you say is is is very important um and it's i have a little sneak and look at the var when it's premier league when you see what's happening and you you see who actually who gets the goal if it's like a melee of players which you know sometimes on set pieces it is if anything's happened oh god that could be offside but all that's coming through your head but i just i just really like that but that's an important part of the job lucy you

39:39Lucy Ward:mentioned there about VAR and obviously there's a lot about fans can't celebrate goals what about for commentators because you do sometimes you do sometimes sense a commentator is slightly hedging and yesterday uh for the art the Arsenal winner there was a bit of it's a goal for now it's and it wasn't even much of a VAR check but like are you what's the balance between you're wary of being caught out and going full throttle in case they disallow it but also just not wanting to lose

40:04Michael Cox:that moment the thing is if it looks like it might be an offside and sometimes it's obvious to you but the thing is you can hear the VAR so that is the key so when you've got a co-comer like Gary Neville was yesterday he can hear they can't hear him but he can hear what they're saying so they might be saying automatically saying or the referee might be saying we can hear the ref but we can hear them and it's what they initially say and also we get like a little strip across the bottom that says check in VAR and it'll go a different color so in all the time that you're saying stuff you can you can allow that to happen before you start to say about VAR but if I'm initially thinking that it might be offside or there might have been a handball i'll say that within you know my the bit that i say but you're so aware of it it's so enough sometimes i like bang my head on the table it's like please don't please don't do it please don't don't do it you know it's it's that was a wonderful you know you said about like the pressure of you know you want

40:56Lucy Ward:to get it right you must be like oh that was such a great line i just used and now the goal's being disavowed it's like the worldie for the player like what good is that world is it's not going to count it's not going to go down to the record books that was a great line i just nobody's

41:07Tom Williams:thinking about the co-commentators, are they, Charlie? Exactly. It's all about the fans, isn't it? But not the co-commentators.

41:12Michael Cox:So sticking up for the co-commentators is there's only really the commentators that have lines. Like the co-commentator is just like proper. I'm just sticking up for us at the moment. So I don't really have a line because like if I ever say a line in Miley's accent, it's like she just read that from somewhere.

41:28Tom Williams:You've established you're a member, you're a firm member of the forwards union, the strikers union. But obviously, clearly you're a member of the co-commentators union because you've already slagged off the mysterious European match director. Why do they get so much shit, these people? Like, these poor guys. There was always the continental ones that get it as well. Why are they so different at their jobs than the good old UK match directors?

41:50Michael Cox:Well, because you get used to working with the UK ones. Well, you've got some terrific ones at tier, like proper top marches who you'll be talking to and you'll tell them. And as I'm talking, they'll put the shot on what I'm talking about, which, you know, is pretty key. but I've worked on like World Feed stuff for like Euros and World Cup and quite a lot of them are quite flamboyant. You know, like this is a... I'm an artist and this is my...

42:17Tom Williams:Lots of slow-mo replays of random things. Yeah, honestly.

42:21Michael Cox:Do I... I can't even talk about stuff and they'll be like showing like a slow-mo. I don't... Nobody wants to see that slow-mo and then we can't see the action. So yeah, there is a little bit more of... It's more of a show, I think, when the European directors are doing it.

42:33Lucy Ward:it sounds like a reverse how in this country we're like oh we need to import better refs from the continent in the content they need to employ better directors to try and sort this out you know i wonder if in spain they're having these conversations get those great english directors

42:46Tom Williams:just like our referees they're just the best in the world but based on no evidence whatsoever this is great that wraps up your footballing fascinations lucid

43:26Lucy Ward:We'll see you next time. 45 % alcohol by volume imported by Masked Jägermeister, U.S., White Plains, New York. LinkedIn is pretty great at a lot of things, like helping you tap into the latest trends and insights in your field.

43:36Michael Cox:We cannot stop your coworker from tapping her pencil. LinkedIn can help you find new jobs that align with your career goals.

43:43Lucy Ward:We cannot help you find the source of that weird smell in the office fridge. And while we can't stop your coworkers from bringing their hobbies into the office, LinkedIn can help you bring your career to the next level. LinkedIn is the network that works for you. One sweet, melty bite of a Hershey's bar, and suddenly I'm right back sitting on the front porch with my grandmother on a slow summer afternoon. She doesn't say much, just breaks the bar in half and hands me a piece. I open my mouth to say whatever a nine-year-old wants to say, and she replies with a low, shh, listen. So we sat there.

44:23Lucy Ward:Listening.

44:24Michael Cox:That was the first time I learned that quiet can feel full. Hershey's, it's your happy place. Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

44:40Tom Williams:Time for your irritations. Tell us about the first thing that gets your goat.

44:43Michael Cox:I've shoved a few things into this, but it's all under the same umbrella. So what gets my goat is LinkedIn coaches, laptop coaches, same difference. and then fitness, physio, silos. So the obvious example I could give is that there was a story a few months ago that the Chelsea medical department tell the manager exactly how many minutes that a player is going to play and it cannot change from that. And honestly, it just blows my mind how the most important person in all that is the player in terms of what they should be doing whether they're fit enough or whatever it might be. And I just think it's just going completely the other way.

45:26Michael Cox:They're not the authentic selves. And I think you have to have authenticity for the players to look at you and think, right, yeah, fair play, I know where you're coming from, rather than I've seen a book that you've read and then it says to talk like this or to say these sort of things. So, yeah, it just drives me insane.

45:42Tom Williams:Lucy Ward, Charlie, a proper football woman.

45:47Tom Williams:Incredible sort of timing for this. is a couple of very sort of pertinent case studies that have come to light in the last few days in this kind of topic, Charlie. First of all was Jesse Marsh quote tweeting a clip from Sam Allardyce's podcast about how the managers that followed Bielsa at Leeds saw the performance metrics drop and the fitness of the players deteriorate really quickly. And Marsh tweeted a spreadsheet of the sprint distances and all various sort of other sort of sprint-related metrics to disprove this because Leeds were still at the top during his reign, if you could call it that.

46:22Tom Williams:And it's just great to see those two worlds colliding and an open view on social media as well.

46:27Lucy Ward:Yeah, that is crazy. I mean, that sort of approach in hiring managers. Yeah, I don't know. I was talking about this recently, actually, about the key thing, I think, is the authenticity point. And that's where coaches can get into trouble. But I think it's always hard to know kind of exactly how authentic a coach is being. I mean, some, I think, do genuinely have an interest in these areas or they've gone and spoken to people from another sport or whatever it is. But yeah, that does seem to be an absolutely key thing in a kind of manager's PR and how they're viewed.

47:00Tom Williams:Lucy, we have spoken about this on the podcast recently about kind of the outward kind of appearance of a manager. Not sort of visually, I just mean that their whole kind of presentation of themselves, usually in press conferences and things like that. But how important actually is that? because obviously the hard work just gets done behind the scenes. So it's fine to get annoyed or it's fine to pick apart their slightly laptop-y approach in a public sense. But if they're doing the work behind the scenes that they should be doing, is that not more important?

47:28Michael Cox:Yeah, it is. So why are they spending more time on looking in a certain way and speaking in a certain way? And you're not authentic if you're copying or you're doing what a book had told you. You can tell. I mean, there's certain books that everybody has read around sort of sport and football. And you can tell if people are sort of following that. And it shouldn't matter how they come across in press conferences, but it obviously does. But it is more important as how the players see you and whether they look at you and think, I'm buying into what he says. And if you're not authentic, then I'm not sure that the players will buy into you as maybe the younger ones might do.

48:05Michael Cox:But even then, the younger ones will look and think, well, it's like you're reading from a book, mate. It's just not right. There is a middle ground. there's a middle ground from dinosaurs to laptop coaches and where you use a little bit of data and you use a little bit of emotional intelligence and it's and listen life is all about relationships football is all about relationships and and how you connect with the people that you're coaching so there is a middle ground of using both but these managers and coaches that come in and everybody says i'm brilliant because he's you know he did this data thing in uh in america and it's like yeah but what about his coaching it's fair enough he's coaching on a on a screen on a laptop but what about when it's tough when it's a lonely place that technical area and can you make a difference in the sort of blood and thunder of the premier league on the theme charlie of kind

48:52Tom Williams:of siloed kind of specialist coaches having undue influence um james mcnicholas on the athletic with the exclusive story the arsenal set piece coach nicholas hover um has a bonus clause that It gives him a bonus every time Arsenal score from a set piece situation, which is an incredible story. It feels like something you would put in a parody article at the start of the season about things that might happen this season.

49:13Lucy Ward:Yeah, our alternative view on the Premier League season. Here's what won't happen in the Premier League. Yeah, that or a thing that's been done to like bait Richard Keyes, who I think calls Nicholas Liova like that silly little man or something. Like just the key thing. And like, I hope McNicholas was getting pushed to get this out in time for Keyes' blog. I hope his editors weren't worried about competitors getting it. Just like, James, get it out so he can see this in time for the cliches pod.

49:40Tom Williams:I mean, it's clearly a sensible negotiating tactic though, Charlie. Like he's probably, he's raking it in this season. It's good news for him.

49:46Lucy Ward:And, you know, I think everyone would agree it's become, most people would say for worse, but for better or worse, you know, a key battleground in the Premier League.

49:55Tom Williams:If anything, Lucy, it's a great advert for managers checking their iPad when a goal goes in instead of celebrating. Brilliant. I knew he'd set you off on this.

50:05Michael Cox:the funniest thing is that they've practiced all these set pieces before so they know what they're doing it's like why do you need to stand in the technical area because you just stood watching it's like just just go and sit in your place and watch it yes we know that you've done all that good work sit in your place on the bench you don't need to stand back in your box

50:22Tom Williams:this is tremendous the authentic irritation is growing here and i'm really enjoying it tell us about your second irritation of football, please, Lucy?

50:32Michael Cox:This is a simple one. And this is when fullbacks, right, who are shepherding the ball out and then fall onto the floor, fall onto the ball and get a free kick for it. Nowhere else on the pitch would that happen. And it's always fullbacks. And the forward, I'll be able to, and it happens all the time now. I remember one of the Leeds defenders, Luke Aylin, used to do it. And the fans used to call it the flop, the alien flop. And this is a good, you know, a good example of a referee is just not tuned in with footballers. Like, if I was a referee, I'd never give that foul unless he absolutely was clattered.

51:04Michael Cox:I'd never give it. And then as soon as you don't give it a couple of times, then they stop doing it. It's just like, it's just like a fall to the floor. Like, you know, they'll just run out of air. But yeah, that is so annoying. When it happens, I'm like, you'd never give that anywhere else on the pitch, so why are you giving it there?

51:20Lucy Ward:But Lucy, my anger there often is with the player doing the foul as well. Because inevitably, there'll be about five seconds before where you're saying, don't foul him, don't foul him, don't foul him, please don't foul him, don't foul him, don't touch him, you know he's going to go down, and then they do it. And you're like, oh, you know he's going to get it if you do that.

51:36Michael Cox:But you don't even have to know how they touch him, Charlie. It's like a little bit of a touch. And what they do is they wait for the touch and then go down and are just like, just don't, ref, if you don't give it, they'll never do it again.

51:44Lucy Ward:You really hate fullbacks.

51:48Tom Williams:I mean, obviously this is anti-fullback propaganda once again, but it's definitely a noted phenomenon and amongst football fans and kind of, you know, broadcast as well. This is definitely a thing that happens in football. And yet the fact that Luke Ayling took it to the point where he, it became part of his whole football identity. Clearly that's beyond the threshold of acceptable. And that's where the point where it feels like something, I mean, IFAB are very much on it at the moment. IFAB are solving problems left, right and centre, or solving problems we didn't think needed solving. Do you think we're closer than ever to getting the fullback flop kind of actually a rule invented to counteract it?

52:25Michael Cox:Yeah, I mean, we are sort of forensically refereeing now, aren't we? I mean, he even played for my team and it annoyed the hell out of me. It's like, yeah, it'd be interesting to see what happens. But yeah, I'm not saying any more about it. I have expressed my displeasure in watching fullbacks fall to the floor for no reason.

52:43Tom Williams:But it's such a position-specific act, Charlie. There's no other position on the pitch that has this kind of preoccupation. Strikers dive, yeah, sure. But there's an obvious kind of gamesmanship going on there. I think that there's a little bit of sympathy to a certain extent with strikers that dive. You're like, he had to go down there or to win the penalty. But when fullbacks do it in such innocuous areas, it does seem to get more ridicule. But one thing I would say about it is it's probably been allowed to happen for so long because it's such an innocuous area of the pitch. Like referees are just like, well, I give a foul here.

53:15Tom Williams:The game probably benefits from it as a whole, as a spectacle. Is that why it keeps getting allowed?

53:20Lucy Ward:like in power league when you're both in a corner and you're just sort of like in deadlock and the ref's like just just stop it just like you have the ball everyone's bored of the kind of shepherding right by the corner and yeah and crucially and crucially one more thing about this lucy is like

53:35Tom Williams:you know as we've seen a lot with um defenders getting pushed in the box um when a cross comes in spurs have both benefited and and sort of uh had it to their expense recently but with this particular incident i feel like it's really consistently enforced it doesn't matter who you are or what team you are you're going to get that decision 99 % of the time so in that sense fans kind of made their peace with it because they know that they're going to benefit from it at least

53:57Michael Cox:later on in the game as well yeah I think it's just one of those it's probably like the next law isn't it you're allowed to fall to the floor we are just and everybody gets it so nobody really

54:06Tom Williams:complains apart from me I feel like I'm all right with it I've convinced myself now if like if we can all just make our peace with it but there you go some people have higher standards for moral behaviour in football and that's fine. Right, bringing things full circle now, your third and final irritation of football please.

54:23Michael Cox:So my third irritation is connected to one of my, the ones that I love and that's when other clubs, bigger clubs, and I have very much lots of experience of this, bigger clubs will steal and I don't mean like you know get them in the middle of the night but steal their academy kids and then claim for themselves and say they came through our academy even though they took them at 16. And the whole system is geared towards category one club academies anyway because they don't have to pay that much. It's pittance, really, even if you've looked after them since the age of seven or eight. So it goes back to the pride that you feel when a kid makes his debut, that when a kid leaves because their dad or mum's been promised a new car or whatever, a new house and move them all over to a city beginning with M, that um and they can go to the nice posh school that you're like hang on a minute we we have been you know some coaches would you know drive a minibus and take them here there and everywhere and then they leave at um i think we had joel um later body until under 14s and then he went to city and then city had him bringing the premier league out at sort of 15 16 saying what about our academy products i'm like if you have academy products we had him since whatever what are you target so that's a good example of how i lose my rag watching the tv and say that he's not one of your academy products he's one of our academy products that you took from us for pittance and then gone oh look at our shiny new player and i know it happens but i think when you put so much work you know like my job was 24 7 anything that went wrong with the kids was i would be anything with the parents anything with the schools i'd be in there and sorting it out so a good example um I remember Lewis Cook, everybody wanted Lewis Cook when he was sort of under 14.

56:10Michael Cox:And you couldn't sign a scholarship until the start of your under 15 year. And I had a good relationship with his mum. So the director of football at the time at Leeds was like, Lewis, have a word with Lewis's mum and see if you can get him to sign. So I thought, oh, I've got a good relationship. You know, my stuff is the good of the kid, not the good of the club, even though it is the good of the club. so I spoke to Lewis's mum and we talked about it and she's going he'll sign a scholar with you we knew that the agents were around him and the other clubs were around him and she said to me after about 25 minutes she went what would you do if he was your son and I said I wouldn't sign a contract until GCSE year when I knew that he'd concentrated for his exams if he knew that he was going to sign for Leeds so she said yeah I appreciate you being honest that's what we're going to do so that is another sort of 18 months time so meanwhile I'm like oh shit I've now got to go back to the director of football and say they're not going to sign his scholarship until he gets to his under 16 year when we know that he's worked for his GCSEs and we know that he's going to get his GCSEs we don't want him you know tossing off the last two years of his school when he's been so good even though he wouldn't have done because he's a good kid they were like for fuck's sake we tried to sign him he could sign him now and you just saw his mother that don't do it i wouldn't do it if i was his mom and anyway all's well that ends well he signed under 16 but my point is is is that you you build up a relationship and so when then they disappear at 15s or 16s or whatever it to to bigger and better and more money it's it you understand from the what is it point of view but the new club then saying look at our academy products and look how many academy products we bring through and you're just like that that's not your academy product that's come from somewhere else and you know a lot of the big clubs do it and i understand why they do it but it's it is annoying when you put so much work into the kids

58:10Tom Williams:charlie this is this is a rare kind of mesot hall and dick selection that has kind of serious real world experience behind it in a couple of decades of you know career level kind of dedication to to the passion behind it but we it would be it would be remiss of us not to take a cliches as approached this because there is a great example of this recently um chelsea and their fa cup game against hull gave a debut to uh jesse derry and they tweeted a proud moment for our academy as jesse derry makes his chelsea debut three months after that it got the uh community note treatment on twitter where it said jesse derry is a product of the crystal palace academy having signed for chelsea as an 18 year old he is not a product of chelsea's academy um it raises the inevitable question charlie in your head what do you think is the cutoff point for the whole one of our own sentiment i mean if you sign someone at the age of like 11 i feel like that's all right you can claim them it's puberty the cutoff i mean yeah the one of our own thing yeah i always find it

59:13Lucy Ward:weird when you'll see academy players listed as like a spanish player or something who came over when they were like 14, 15 or something. It's like, they're not, I mean, I know they played in your academy and that sort of thing, but that instinctively just feels like a little bit, like even more exaggerated because they were reared in a whole other country and, you know, learned their game in a completely different culture, but they're still listed as being a sort of academy graduate.

59:39Tom Williams:This is really genuinely interesting to me. Like you hear, you know, he's one of our own so much in football, Lucy, but like genuinely, what would you say is the point after which, like, the real football education as a professional begins. Like, I don't know, you hear stories about them kicking a ball when they're two. Should that be part of the equation?

59:58Lucy Ward:He's really little kicker zone. He's not, you know, that's where he learned the game.

1:00:03Tom Williams:Soccer tots forever. Exactly.

1:00:06Michael Cox:Yes, soccer tots. Well, yeah, I think, I mean, the sort of foundation phase up to under 12 and it moves to sort of youth development phase, 14s to 16s. Right. I think if you, I mean, it depends. I mean, football is all about opportunity. And I have seen plenty of very good kids never become a professional. And quite a lot of the time is luck and opportunity that somebody gives them. If your manager doesn't play kids, and Leeds had a lot of managers who weren't brave enough to play kids, that, you know, you would never, difficult to make it anyway. But I do think you've got to put, you know, sort of 12s, 13s, 14s.

1:00:41Michael Cox:And if you take them above, under 14s, then they're not your kids because another club has put the foundation into him since he was sort of six or seven years old.

1:00:51Tom Williams:I'm glad to have finally had the pressure clarified. This is good.

1:00:54Michael Cox:I'll tell you the good example. Calvin Phillips wasn't in an academy and he came into us at under 15, I think it was. So there's a lot of ironing out to do. So we would claim him as one of our, because he was sort of in the shadow squads and sort of satellite centres. But those ones, they're particularly nice. The ones that come through later who just enjoyed their football. and you speak to a lot of ex-footballers who either work in academy or experience in academy. They probably said, we wouldn't put our son in an academy until sort of under 14s, under 15s, just simply because it is such a pressurised environment for nine, 10.

1:01:30Michael Cox:I remember sitting in a coach player meeting with a parent and he's going, well, he can do this and he can do this, but he needs to improve this. And I'm thinking, how old is this kid? And he was like eight. And I'm like, oh, what are we doing here?

1:01:41Lucy Ward:It's like me and my son, he's five.

1:01:43Tom Williams:Are you showing any signs of elite level football ability, Charlie? Or are you pushing him into tennis, aren't you? That's where the millions are. Tennis, yeah. That's where he'll earn his money. Lucy, this has been sensational. Between your three fascinations and irritations, do you feel like just a weight has been lifted off your shoulders now?

1:01:59Michael Cox:Yeah. Do you know what? Just for ranting about the stuff that I want to rant about, I feel fully cleansed.

1:02:07Tom Williams:Yeah, there's a whole army of European TV directors and laptop coaches out there. forward-thinking football men out there who are very much going to be gunning for you from now on. But we're delighted to have it. Have a great time at Elland Road tonight on TNT Sports.

1:02:21Michael Cox:Thank you very much, boys.

1:02:23Tom Williams:It's been a pleasure. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.

1:02:26Lucy Ward:Thank you. Thanks, Lucy. That was great.

1:02:27Tom Williams:And thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. See you then.