Co-commentator voice ID & performatively not interfering with play: The listeners' loves & hates

15:04Nick Miller:I'll revisit the scorecard.

15:05Charlie Eccleshare:It's a slippery slope from here, Charlie. You're going to be calling bagels like 6-1, 6-love, 6-love or something like that, just letting it slip. Don't like it. Anyway, this episode is brought to an association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands for Virtual Private Network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content. while travelling. Indeed, via Niall Doherty over to La Liga we go. But crucially, the Dutch TV highlights of Real Betis versus Real Madrid recently, as Anthony shows off some fine juggling to set up a chance.

16:00Charlie Eccleshare:First thing to say here, Nick, is Dutch is really easy sometimes, isn't it? A little bit of Copacabana there from Anthony. Wow, what an easy language.

16:09Nick Miller:Frank de Boer spread the ball. I mean, it's all there. Wow. I'm going to speak Dutch. That bit of commentary, the guy sounds like he says, Dennis Bergkamp, I'm into Milan in there. Really? I assumed that he just kind of got that wrong, but I was told by a Dutch speaker he didn't say that at all. Oh, right. It's sometimes impenetrable, sometimes very easy.

16:29Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so the Copacabana kind of thing is spreading across Europe, Charlie. I don't know what Fletch thinks about this. He's probably quite proud of it. For technical matters, we should point out that Anthony was born a mere six and a half hour drive away from Copacabana in Osasco, Sao Paulo. So he could have made a trip. He could have made a little family day out at some point.

16:48Nick Miller:Quite a way, but yeah, I mean, it's feasible. It feels like more of a long weekend than a day out, I think. But still.

16:54Charlie Eccleshare:If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches. and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it. We'll be right back after the break with the listeners, Meza Harlan Dix.

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18:58oh look at that that is wonderful

19:05Charlie Eccleshare:welcome back to football cliches it's time for the listeners mes at harland dicks for september uh before that though dreamland we've just recorded episode 32 of dreamland the latest edition of our voices of football series if you want to sign up for dreamland just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com and for$5.99 a month you'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes plus two episodes a month of dreamland and access to the premium section of the burgeoning premium section of our quiz games as well happy hunting grounds out of control and all of that just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com right listeners may not have harlan dicks time for september it comes around earlier every month it feels uh feels like no time at all since we did August but here we are and what a welcome return it is as we kick off our fascinations for one Jack Pearce and he's accompanied by a very familiar sound effect too.

19:59Charlie Eccleshare:One of my football fascinations is when you tune into a game and maybe 10 or 15 minutes in and you have no idea who the co-commentator is you have no recognition of their voice whatsoever. Michael Bridges and Sam Parkin may be good examples for Premier League coverage in recent seasons. My most pleasing success at identifying a co-commentator I didn't recognise was for some reason I was watching Livingston versus either Celtic or Rangers on a Sunday lunchtime and from a slight Australian twang a reference to I think playing for Livingston and a disgust at a striker not being in the right place at the right time I identified Stuart Lovell as the co-commentator for that game and the fact I had no idea who Stuart Lovell was before that doesn't matter I got him.

20:43Charlie Eccleshare:Cheers guys. I can tell you Charlie that not only are those familiar waves Jack Pierce was standing in the exact same spot that he sent his voice note in 2024 I believe so yeah what dedication to the art.

20:55Nick Miller:You know you think about the waves or I think about the waves being such like a peaceful restorative thing you know you often you do your best thinking kind of you know what the waves are lapping at your feet and clearly that works for Jack Pierce it really really gets the juices flowing for it.

21:08Charlie Eccleshare:It's good to have a gimmick Nick maybe it's just you know there's a proliferation of co-commentators now that it becomes something of a challenge to identify sometimes who's on games and how can i put this if you're watching a game say in a foreign country physically or virtually it opens you up to a whole galaxy of of sort of second and third tier co-commentators you happen to be doing sort of a domestic game on a saturday afternoon or something that's where the real kind of obscure names pop in you like you said the sam parkins and of that kind who who aren't whose voices may not be fully familiar with just yet it is that moment where you you will take a good three or four minutes to figure out who the hell is commentating on your team again you can as he kind of mentions there you can kind of you can pick up on slight clues one trap that i when i when i could sometimes do this is trying to apply the kind of well it's coventry against leeds so have they got someone who's relevant for those But obviously that's more of a kind of studio pundit thing.

22:08That's where Noel Whelan would come in, for example. Whereas with the co-coms, it's just kind of, you know, it's slightly more random.

22:17Nick Miller:What Jack describes as well, that feeling of satisfaction, is almost the exact same feeling when you're watching a film or a TV show and you're like, where do I know that person from? And then you remember, you're like, he's in an episode of Friends. He's that minor character in Series 2. That's where I know. And it is the most satisfying thing.

22:33Charlie Eccleshare:I'm so glad I got that. You're absolutely spot on. It's exactly the same impulse. Lou's can't watch stuff with me now because I have to pause and then go and find out. I need to know. I must know what that person was in. God, what was it? We were watching the Truman Show the other day. Didn't finish it. Of course we didn't. It's like two and a half hours long. There's a moment where he nearly sort of discovers that sort of one of the elevators in an office building is completely fake. and he gets bundled out of the building by two burly security guards one of which is the husband of the one of the characters in the bear right and i have to stop it i have to check it's amazing

23:13Nick Miller:it is it's one of it's one of the the great feelings when the penny drops and you realize and and you you're like oh i'm about to get this i know i'm about to get this i've got it i know who it is and similar with similar with co-coms you what with co-coms are there is what you can Obviously, this is like a cheat, but sometimes they will call them by name. Right. But you're kind of waiting for that often. You're like, they're just not doing it. And then they do and you're like, Steve, I have such a vivid memory of this. There was an FA Cup tie. Spurs were away at Wickham and it was Steve Sidwell on comps.

23:45Nick Miller:I just couldn't work it out because it sounded like it was Gareth Southgate. But I was like, that's obviously not Gareth Southgate. The England manager is not commentating on Wickham Spurs. They're pseudonym. Yeah, exactly. It must have been on ITV or something. So it was a Monday night. It was obviously like a bit of a B-team partnership. I was like, who is it? And I remember actually I text James Moore and I was like, who is this co-commentator? And he either knew or had also looked it up. But straight away, it's like Steve Sidwell.

24:13Charlie Eccleshare:It's right up there in my top 10 WhatsApp messages to receive. Who's the co-commentator in this game? Allow me. It's Tony Gale, actually. You'd be stunned. But the thing is, Nick, not only are there so many co-commentators working at the moment and some up-and-coming ones whose voices we may not be fully accustomed to. But a lot of them sound the same. Like, I am now sort of officially welcoming Rob Green into the Andy Hinchcliffe, Don Goodman kind of Venn diagram of voices. I don't know what it is about the voice. It's slightly unplaceable accent-wise, but it sort of has that slight urgency about it, that sort of earnestness of a new co-coms, who want to make themselves sort of, makes their opinions sort of quite strident.

24:55Charlie Eccleshare:and so that voice is that that has that kind of purposefulness about it in the same way that goodman and hitchcliffe do so maybe they're all just starting to sound the same which adds to the problem i have like really quite bad blind spots with some co-commentators where i've i've heard them before i've identified who it is but then it just kind of drops out of my brain completely for some lee hendry for some reason every time i kind of i hear him it's i mean you don't get that but I really got that many co-comments with that strong... He's got a fascinating voice. Yeah, he does. It's a distinctive voice.

25:29It comes from the bottom of the throat. You don't get that many co-comments with that strong sort of brummy accent. But still, I just can't... It doesn't stick in my mind for some reason.

25:39Nick Miller:It's because he looked so youthful always as a player. And so it's a bit incongruous how it sounds. That doesn't sound like it. It sounds more like Goodman somehow.

25:49Charlie Eccleshare:Nick, of course, your voice is eminently recognisable because what happened to you recently? Oh, yeah, Jesus. Yes, I was at a funeral chatting away. I was introduced to a cousin or I'm very sorry. You're almost certainly listening and I've forgotten your name. Oh, no!

26:14and chatting away and there was a moment where I could see a sort of something happened to this guy's face and then he said are you Nick who's on football cliche sometimes and it was a real as you might imagine in the circumstances extremely jarring oh I bet that took the

26:31Nick Miller:edge off though didn't it it's very like wearing your castrol jacket

26:39Charlie Eccleshare:the fact that you whatsapped it to me immediately it's just it's just the cherry on the icing of the cave this situation but yes jack pierce welcome back to listeners mesut harland dicks with your waves next up for our fascinations for this month comes scott drayton hey guys one of my loves is when a player is trying to make it really overly clear that they're not getting involved in play when they're currently offside they do the weird little hand action thing where your elbows are by your ribs and your hands go up just above your head you're in a very unnatural position or alternatively they do the incredibly over exaggerated nonchalant i barely know a football game's going on and then nowadays of the second phase of play how that suddenly snaps into oh my god i'm back in the game now who knew surprise attack this is one of i don't think we've ever discuss this form of body language Charlie which of the two kind of techniques would you advocate

27:34Nick Miller:I think they both work I also like the very deliberate sort of walking you're sort of walking away from goal yeah yeah just to really emphasize the fact that like I'm not I'm not doing anything here nothing to see here I'm if anything I'm walking away and then yeah if you can then suddenly do like a little turn around as soon as that extra phase that's that's spot on well as we

27:53Charlie Eccleshare:know from many high profile offside decisions nick it's a gray area the concept of interfering with play so not only should players make an effort to make sure that they don't get sort of caught caught up in the net of offside but referees should be grateful for them for doing it so thanks for that mate that guy would never have counted if you hadn't have done that yeah but var saying no that guy's got his hands up to it yeah he doesn't he's not interviewing Yeah, look how uninterested he is. Yeah. It's also, it's the same, it's the same, obviously the same gesture or body language to the I haven't found him ref.

28:26Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, exactly right. Yeah, it's basically been repurposed for a completely different scenario. Maybe that's too demonstrative, the kind of hands up. It looks a little bit, Nick, like I'm not one of the shooters in this situation. Don't kill me. I'm not one of the hijackers.

28:41Nick Miller:Backing away.

28:42Charlie Eccleshare:As he says, the nonchalance of the I'm going to completely and cartoonishly remove myself from this action here i think it's a king move actually especially when you ally with what he's with what scott said of the kind of sudden resurgence back into the action afterwards i love that moment in their head where they think okay that phase is now over the player has decided that it's okay to rejoin the action um some just incredible intelligence all round really i don't know if they this can't be something they work on surely well maybe maybe it Like the Arsenal back four doing their offside hats.

29:15Yeah, got coaches for everything these days, didn't they? So I mean, just gotcha this as well. Game awareness, maybe it falls under that umbrella.

29:22Charlie Eccleshare:I don't think I've ever seen it in Sunday League, Charlie, which is, you know, I don't think it's bled down that far. But I guess interfering with play in an offside decision doesn't really rear its ugly head at Sunday League, does it? You'd be frying the brain of the poor substitute, wouldn't you?

29:36Nick Miller:There aren't as many phases. I mean, I've said before about the guy we played against who said, I'm doing a Van Nistelrooy is he stood like miles offside, which is like one of the most ludicrous things ever said in Sunday League. When Van Nistelrooy brought that into sort of popularity, remember at free kicks, he'd sort of be miles offside. But then it was like, oh no, but it's a different phase. He can do, how's he doing? He can do that. But yeah, to actually do this, yeah, maybe does require an extra layer of sophistication.

30:04Charlie Eccleshare:It also just sort of flies in the face of, you know, the current discourse about ground coverage and distance run. I mean, to be demonstrably not playing football, Nick, it's a bad look in today's game. I was trying to think if that particular hand gesture has any usage in the rest of kind of normal life. The only thing I could think of was, it's not really sort of related to it, but it's the kind of, I'm just asking questions kind of tone of voice that some people have. Look, I'm just saying, I'm just asking questions. I'm not accusing everyone of anything, I'm just asking questions.

30:39Nick Miller:is it a bit that thing someone does well like i'm not here i'm not here like hands up when they're sort of like walk into a room like ignore me i'm not here god i haven't heard a not here for ages it's like oh you sort of you kind of are by doing that you're making yourself a lot more conspicuous than i'm here it's like the family life there's that what your kids do sorry i'm not

30:57Charlie Eccleshare:here oh brilliant uh thank you scott drayton right time for our third fascination for my listeners this month and it comes from carhall o 'rourke so my football and fascination is when the manager of a team who are clearly in the running for a title say that they're not in a title race so i'm a bohemians fan they're currently third in the league of ireland three points behind top spot with five games to go so very very much in a title race uh so after a come from behind win against drohada last friday our manager alan reynolds was being interviewed and you know the interviewer's like not a lot of people are giving you a chance of winning the title you must believe players believe I know we're not in the race at all come on I know

31:37Nick Miller:look I'm here it's all about the other two I would have thought we'll just keep chipping away and I'm so intrigued but it's a reflex that managers have where they downplay title challenges like is that with a view to like taking the pressure off or stopping the media from saying too much you know I'm not sure that's ever worked but I just admire the reflex always being there Charlie

31:57Charlie Eccleshare:this is one of the most enduring art forms in football management it's It's broadly under the umbrella term of kidology and mind games, I guess. Probably one of the tamer forms, I imagine, given it's just about yourself. It's absolutely ingrained in football managers now to play things down. And if you think of the most extreme example, this would be Ranieri playing down Leicester's chances in the title race in 15-16. He played that down for so long that it actually got a little bit silly. So that's an extreme example. But it will be the dumb thing for pretty much every manager.

32:27Nick Miller:I remember Mourinho doing it in a really ostentatious way as well in 13-14. Do you remember the little horse he kept calling Chelsea? We probably said it once, but it became a special one type thing. He just said, oh, little horse. Yeah, everyone went mad for it. I think he actually did. It was like, we are a little horse in this race. Which again was, you know, because he was viewed as like the master of this sort of thing. I mean, I think it's broadly seen more benignly as like, you know, keeping the pressure off the players. but what's funny here is the manager there he's got like this sort of grin knowing grin on his face as he says it so he's obviously in on it and probably thinks it's he's you know he's probably read it that it's like or absorbed him like this is good you know this is clever psychology take the pressure off the players even though as you say you know it's it's he's hardly the first to

33:16Charlie Eccleshare:have done it well nick obviously the primary function of this obviously is to take the pressure off the players i mean if you think about the sort of pathetic basic psychology of football sometimes this is the idea that players are listening are going oh okay fine but obviously the secondary function is to throw the media off the scent to take the pressure off generally like no one's buying this are they but then as i utter those words i think actually yeah probably the broad base of football media these days is probably thick enough to actually accept it i suppose it's it's the sort of element that it's possibly less like actively trying to deny you in the title race and more the like the the extreme alternative to saying yeah the title's in the bag lads it's you know we're we're definitely going to win it from here on that then charlie if if we were to say that you know stop stop pussyfooting around title challenging managers just tell it how it is obviously they're not going to go yeah we're definitely going to win this we're in the we're in the driving seat there must be a sort of midpoint to say you know yeah you know yeah the table doesn't lie we're playing well yeah we're very much in contention for this to me that just sounds like it would be confident talk that would fill your players with confidence that that and crucially not something that would come back to bite you just by saying we're in contention

34:28Nick Miller:for this we're fighting for this title yeah maybe it does stem though from that fear of how you know if you if you even hint at it maybe you fear that the headlines are going to be manager x roars that his team are in it to win it kind of thing you know when all you've said is like yeah you know we're in it. It's an extreme reaction against that, possibly. It's funny as well, the idea as well that it matters as if, like, you know, you have to, like, you're buying a ticket to be, like, we're not even going for it, you know, we're not even bidding for the title. You know, we're just going to leave it this year.

34:59Nick Miller:We'll wait till next year and then see.

35:01Charlie Eccleshare:This is it. Like, this is the crucial part of this, Nick. It isn't just, you know, a manager side aspect of this, like, you know, taking the pressure off the players and that sort of thing. It really is a transaction that's done with the media. They then go and report that manager is playing down Team X's chances of winning in the league. It's almost an official declaration that he thinks that, you know, that that talk is premature. It feels like an official thing that happens. Do you want to buy a raffle ticket?

35:25Nick Miller:Nah, I'm all right, actually. I'll leave it.

35:27Charlie Eccleshare:It's just a bit of a mad wrinkle in our news cycle, really. It feels like something that has to be asked. And it's not just about title races, Nick. It's about sort of Champions League chasing as well for unlikely teams, teams that find themselves in fourth at the end of September. Can you keep it up? Well, you know, we're just looking down. we're looking to get the foot to the 40 point mark so playing down goes all the way down the division i think there's also a sort of element of as you say with the media aspect too as well element of self-preservation because if you the the the manager might think well if we fuck it from here then i'll try and convince people that we were never in it to begin with yeah we haven't actually failed that's not actually yeah we haven't actually failed so it's not going to reflect badly on me in two or three months but there's an inconsistency with this charlie yes you'll get managers playing down their title chances.

36:15Charlie Eccleshare:You'll get a manager playing down their team's chances of making the top four, unlikely as it might look. You don't get managers playing down their chances of staying up, do you? We're in the bottom three for a reason.

36:30Nick Miller:Yeah, we really are shit. We're preparing for life in the championship. Anything else is a bonus. We could be Derby's record, to be honest.

36:37Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, we might have a great escape on the final day, but we're not looking that far ahead just yet.

36:40Nick Miller:If we can get 12 points, I'll bite your hand off, quite frankly.

36:43Charlie Eccleshare:If we can beat Derby's record. That's what we're looking at. Yeah, I want to see more playing down or less, but I don't want it to stay the same. Anyway, superb stuff. Thank you, Car Hall. We'll be back after the break with our listeners' irritations.

37:05Before this.

37:09there's this as you celebrate the game take a deeper look at its roots the people grow in the grass bathe in the lots weld in the goal posts inspecting every football the hard-working people that make every Sunday possible Carhartt is proud to outfit the crews behind the game visit carhartt.com join the trades to learn more This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. Like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.

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38:40Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. We've heard our listeners' fascinations for September. Now it's time for your irritations and we kick things off with Roz Harrison. So this has preoccupied me for years. On a hat-trick used when a player has only scored two goals, That for me is incorrect. On a hat-trick means you have achieved the hat-trick. So for example, if someone is on a yellow, they have received a yellow card. It should be on for a hat-trick for having scored two goals and on a hat-trick reserved for having scored all three. I mean, I have heard this before, Charlie, and it's a spirited case that Roz has made here.

39:23Charlie Eccleshare:I just think if there was a sudden decree that on a hat-trick meant you'd scored a hat-trick and that was your status for the rest of the game, I feel like that really would take the oomph out of it, wouldn't it? He's on a hat-trick!

39:35Nick Miller:Yeah, because you've got to break down why on a hat-trick is said. And like, there has to be, I think there should be an element of surprise to it. Like if Haaland just scores two, I don't think on a hat-trick is very interesting or adds anything. I think it's more a kind of like, you know, you can imagine Fletch being like, And for all he hasn't scored recently, what I would say is he's on a hat-trick now. Or a defender gets two and it's like, Defender X is on a hat-trick. It's like, this is crazy. This player who never scores could get three today. I think that's when it should be used.

40:10Charlie Eccleshare:Obviously, it's such a phrase that's ingrained in our lexicon, Nick, on a hat-trick. How do you feel about the precedent that Ross has presented with on a yellow card? meaning essentially the yellow card has been received is that is that should be on a red yeah yeah but this i think this is the thing i think when when someone says he's on a yellow card they don't that is kind of said in as the the yellow card as a sort of staging post towards a red card right like of course you you quite you hear it quite often if a um the fallback has been booked early on in the game when when they're kind of um they're playing a tricky winger or they've got a really kind of tough opponent so gonna be on he's on a yellow card for the next 80 minutes now so that's i think i think it's it's a similar kind of idea but slightly different

41:02Nick Miller:i mean yeah the logical extension there would be to say he's on a red card because that's what you're talking about isn't you're saying that he's on that's the risk that's what you're fearing will happen in the same way that you're hoping a hat trick will happen if change is going to happen

41:16Charlie Eccleshare:charlie this is perhaps where it needs to go we keep on a hat trick for being two goals and still threatening but also now change to on a red because i think people would accept it because it would never mean you've had a red card because you'll be off the pitch i think he's on a red and yeah yeah that feels natural to me that feels like something could work so it's a mountain to muhammad situation which way do we go what would please roz harrison on a red could i

41:41Nick Miller:I mean, in the same way that he's like a red car waiting to happen or a walking red card or something like that, we have those sorts of expressions in the language of football already. I had to take him off. I had to sub him at six. He was on a red. I could see it. If that was the term, that wouldn't sound weird.

42:02Charlie Eccleshare:Well, look, Nick, as the world's foremost football linguistics podcast, a lot of these sorts of dilemmas come across my virtual table sometimes a similar one would be people who complain about the phrase back of the net because they think well that would be that would be the rear side of the net wouldn't it be like no you wouldn't get you know you can say back of the car back of the cupboard and that still means the rear that it means the back most part of the front of the thing right so i'm all right with it so there is a certain level of pedantry that I will entertain, but not indulge, is that all I'm saying.

42:37Yeah. We're obviously talking about that rather than the net as a two-dimensional wall, we're talking about the net as a kind of three-dimensional whole.

42:50Charlie Eccleshare:Partly because the backside of the net, Charlie, it's just so not needed in football discourse. It landed, it just bounced back into the back of the net. Well, don't worry about it, it's fine.

43:01Nick Miller:Yeah, nestled on the back of the net.

43:04Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, see also roof of, which can also mean both sides of the top. It can be confusing, but those are the inconsistencies we have to live with. Thank you, Roz Harrison. The next irritation from our listeners comes from Nick Chabwick-Williams. So the thing that gets my go is using the term free header. I feel like it's now used pretty much for any set piece goal conceded, particularly if the co-commentator is a fan of the team that's conceded the cross will go in

43:34Nick Miller:they're all fighting for it someone gets a head on it it goes in inevitably the cliche they go to is oh it's a free header but usually it isn't there's a lot of people fighting for the ball someone's got their head on it it just feels like the default thing to say after someone scores a header now obviously you do get free headers jayden anthony recently textbook free header he's the only guy in the six yard box i feel like the the term is being diluted and he gets my goat charlie i think we all know where this discussion is probably

44:06Charlie Eccleshare:inevitably going to head but first of all i was willing to accept the idea that the concept of free header might be slightly diluted these days but i didn't think of it as a symptom of tribal

44:15Nick Miller:co-commentary i know what nick's getting at in the sense that if your team has conceded you are more likely to blame the bad defending so i guess it's sort of an extension of that you know rather than saying like it's a good header you're just like it's a free header as you know no one's challenging him no one's going near him and i think there is something to be said yeah the fact that a lot of headers can look that way by the time the player has contact with the ball because they've freed themselves from their markers or they've got a good contact on it which which is distinct from yeah from when it is just really slack marking and the guy is free to head it.

44:52Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, regardless if it's a ledger demise, Nick, the concept of free header, let's try and define this. Does it mean unmarked? Is that the kind of threshold we're working with here? Does free header mean that player was unmarked throughout the entire process of that phase of play? Unmarked feels like the slight element behind free header, so you're unmarked, and then free header suggests there's a little bit more room around you rather than rather than specifically it feels like it's a sort of it's a cousin to freedom of park x at the back post or something so you're accounted for but you're not you're just not being physically taken care of like someone was assigned to you you're not you're not sort of lost in the ether but you have escaped that marker you've escaped that kind of stewardship perhaps i think is this the gray area kind of working with i think that's that's unmarked and And then free header is when you see a replay of a corner or something like that, and there are players that are jostling or whatever, and then they free themselves on their marker.

45:59But there are some players who someone has just forgot to pick up, or the process has broken down or something like that, and then they appear in space, and that is more of a free header.

46:08Nick Miller:I do think it's important as well where they head it from, because what the complaint often is about a free header is that how is it a free header and he's six yards out plumb in front of goal like there needs to be it needs to be an area where you should be being marked so you wouldn't describe I don't think anyway a free header where someone's like quite a way out from goal where you wouldn't really expect them to score from because it sort of stands to reason that you know maybe that's where you go to find space the free headers that really irk pundits are the you know there's everyone in the box and then he's just you know he's he's free right in front of goal close out

46:44Charlie Eccleshare:close in so okay two elements of this then first of all charlie are we of the opinion then that free headers are the result of lax marking rather than opportunist movement skills by the by the

46:55Nick Miller:forward player yeah i think so i think that in it's an implied criticism the defense i'm trying to think what you would say if you're complementing the sort of movement i'm just not sure ordinarily

47:07Charlie Eccleshare:that's how you would describe it it's never going to end up in as a free header i don't think free headers are earned that they are they are put on a plate for you yeah i completely agree you'd say someone's lost their marker if you give if you're giving you've got to give them agency here you've got to give them credit for what they've done yeah a free header almost feels like a gift but another thing nick this is another trifling technicality but free headers have to be a stationary affair you can't be arriving late or ghosting and get yourself a free header right because that's like well it's not really our fault you came out of nowhere you've done well yeah exactly this there should be an element of someone should have done something about that rather than you know oh well you know that was just that was just good for play good movement or whatever then there's not much not a huge amount of good thing done um okay so i really want to nail this down now charlie how close must your designated marker be for it to no longer be a free header if you've out jumped someone or they haven't bothered to jump that's not a free

48:07Nick Miller:header is it well i think this is where like the just did enough comes in as well because if you're just doing enough you're what you're the reason you're just doing enough is so they don't get a free header generally you know when you're like because you haven't you haven't won the header you haven't fully even contested it you've just done enough to stop it being a free header and i think that is by getting sort of close to them and just slightly close enough even to just upset them from doing what they want to do so i think you need to be far enough away you can't be described as just doing enough because you haven't so there's almost there's room to sort of jump

48:45Charlie Eccleshare:unimpeded finally nick how far out from the goal could a free header be like it does feel like a six-yard box affair but if you're doing it sort of you know a long-range header from the edge of the box could that still count as a free header because like no one's expecting to mark you out there no i suppose the only the only situation where that could be relevant is if it's like a a free kick from sort of deep on on the flank and it but it's still kind of a a whipped cross in or something someone could then be free a little bit further out but someone have a free header from a little bit further out than before this is liquid stuff isn't it it really is uh don't know we've not done free headers before uh but yeah nick chadwick williams i don't necessarily agree with with the context in which you think free headers are becoming more less of a thing but i did enjoy investigating it anyway a slight kind of relation to this is i do think that a similar thing is happening with open goal when you will often hear he had an open goal and he missed it and you usually will hear it on you'll see on social media or you hear on the radio or whatever then when you actually see you think that's not an open goal it's just a good it's just a chance he probably should have scored oh so the goalkeeper was still there to be beaten not necessarily goalkeepers there to be beaten but there's like if there's defender in the way or the goalkeeper was kind of it's not you know it's not a fully open goal and yeah i've i can't think of any specific examples about the moment but i do feel like i've heard it a little bit more recently yeah open goal should be remain a strict thing it should be completely um synonymous with unguarded net.

50:21Charlie Eccleshare:We should keep the bar high for that. Right, down to our final irritation from our listeners for this month and it comes from Michael Tucker. My irritation of football is watching a team make a big money signing who you know that they've bought with the express purpose of playing in the first team and being first choice in their position to strengthen the team and you're looking forward to seeing them debut and on their very first match they're on the bench. This seems to always happen now and it's pointless it's just the managers managers doing it because they think they should rather than because they actually need to bores my blood do you know what nick this is actually on my long list for my own mhd it's players signing too late to make their debut which felt like a dying art i don't know maybe the administration of it all has just got slicker and it's all done by you know online databases these days rather than fax machines but it used used to really annoy me in in the in the used to give the same impulse when you had to save a present for christmas like you got something bought for you because you can't open that until christmas it is the same impulse you want your new signing to be in their kit and on the pitch immediately and when they're on the bench for the first game or even worse in the stand watching which is the pits you feel like you've been denied something and i think this is what michael tucker is going for here this is that impulse you've been denied the new shiny thing i i yeah i understand the impulse but i think there is a difference here i understand the irritation where they haven't signed they've signed and they're not involved at all maybe they do the kind of you know presented before the game and they hold up a shirt or something like that yeah and then they go and go back in and sit and you know the team your team loses and you thought we could really could have done with him but when they're on the bench i i quite like the sort of added ceremony of them then coming on to the later on the one that really sticks in my mind is asprey yes good shout of course it is came out it was it was middlesbrough i think wasn't it and he came on and and changed the game you think these i'm not sure he scored but he said i think he set up uh goal and was really kind of influential so that i really i like that very much there's there is a there is a an added drama to that i think yeah i mean overall charlie i just i just i want managers and clubs to realize the power of a debut even if it is just from the bench just to know that a player is going to overperform by like 10 on their debut have you ever had a shit debut at like amateur level nobody has it's amazing making your debut i would say as well because the the benching element

52:54Nick Miller:because it's a choice they've made and that is distinct from what you're describing the kind of administrative thing where they can't be involved that use another sort of childhood analogy is when you know you go to news agent kid buys the sweets you're like oh you're going to open them now like nah i think i'm going to wait it's like fucking open them now like we just do it like discipline you exactly well you want to yeah you want to do it we all want it wow just do it um in the same way you're like to this manager like oh i know you're being very like sensible and no you know i've got to ease him in it's like just play him he's got you know he's gonna be in your first 11

53:26Charlie Eccleshare:like next game well you're at the pub nick and you've had two to three pints and you turn to your companion and say, should you get into the food? I've already eaten. Well, how dare you? That's ruined everything. It's going against the spirit of this arrangement. Someone agreeing to have food at that moment, it's marriage material as far as I'm concerned. No matter who it is, I want to spend the rest of my life with you because you've agreed to eat with me at this very specific moment. And that's how far away from the original subject material could we get? I disagree, Nick, with Michael's point that this is managers sort of running with the crowd and just sort of deciding that this isn't the done thing to put players straight in.

54:08Charlie Eccleshare:There must be more to it, right? There'll be fitness concerns and all that kind of sensible stuff about, you know, if you've signed a player who's, there's been a saga and they haven't really had a pre-season or whatever. You should have kept yourself fit, though. You can keep yourself fit. You might want to make your debut. Yeah, but there's fitness and there's much fitness, isn't there? Yeah, that is true. I just I can't see the downside Charlie of chucking in a new signing prematurely has there ever been a bad case of doing it Marco Boogers for West Ham

54:39Nick Miller:I guess

54:39Charlie Eccleshare:I guess if they're crap

54:40Nick Miller:then that is then that could sort of damage their standing yeah

54:44Charlie Eccleshare:Ali Dyer they should have they should have kept him on ice for another couple of weeks get him up to speed okay some yeah some borderline irrational stuff from our listeners this month fantastic thanks to you Nick Miller thank you thanks to you Charlie Eccleshare thank you Thanks everyone for sending in your voice notes and for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.

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