In short
The episode of Football Clichés (with Adam Hurry as host/adjudication panel) is a roundup of football language and media quirks, plus a long “Great Entertainers” lineage debate. It opens with the “cool as custard” penalty phrase: Nick Miller and David Walker trace it to BBC coverage of Brackley Town vs Notts County, then connect it to Derby County fan Martin Fisher and Trevor Christie’s 1986 Derby promotion penalty nickname “Cool as Custard Christie.” Guests/participants: David Walker (podcaster; also gorilla-birthday anecdote), Nick Miller (San Siro trip; references Dion Dublin), and Adam Hurry (adjudication panel host).
Key claims
“hanky-panky” and “comical own goal” are often misused; “take nothing away from the finish” can still apply even with defensive errors/deflections; “Great Entertainers” can be tracked via a “lineal title” chain from Liverpool’s 4-3 Newcastle (1995-96) to Chelsea beating Tottenham 3-4 on 8 Dec 2024. Notable examples include Newcastle–Spurs feistiness, Michael Flatley “dancer” commentary, and the “Great Entertainers” reigns featuring 6-1, 5-0, and 4-0 scorelines.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOHoliday Reflections
1:09 to 1:40
Hear about a recent holiday in Turkey and its golf courses.
“It was brilliant, but I did spend it looking longingly at the golf courses in the area.”
Football Commentary Highlights
1:40 to 2:50
Discussion on memorable football commentary moments and phrases.
“I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.”
The Adjudication Panel
3:00 to 4:00
Hosts discuss their experiences and personal anecdotes.
“I'm Adam Hurry, this is the adjudication panel.”
Cool as Custard
4:00 to 7:30
Exploring the phrase 'cool as custard' in football commentary.
“We are still, however, waiting for Dion Dublin to break his silence on what a Deodora pass is, though.”
Hanky-Panky in Football
7:30 to 10:41
Discussion about football players and humorous commentary phrases.
“Next one comes from Ben Nagel over in the US.”
Pop Culture References
10:41 to 14:01
Hosts engage with pop culture references in football commentary.
“And two, Tony Gale is around 60 years old.”
Crowd Noise and Own Goals
14:01 to 15:09
Exploration of crowd noise in football and its humorous interpretations.
“The earliest known usage in the Coliseum.”
Comical vs. Bizarre Own Goals
15:10 to 16:30
Discussion on the differences between comical and bizarre own goals in football.
“We were talking the other day about what sort of distinguishes a comedy-owned goal from a bizarre-owned goal.”
Immersive Experience of Football
16:31 to 18:29
Insights into how players and fans can be deeply immersed in football experiences.
“Sleep always follows eat, doesn't it, I think, in these situations.”
Media Misinterpretations in Football
18:30 to 19:56
Analyzing how media headlines can misrepresent football events and players.
“Nick, he was watching Coronation Street the other night, and someone was reading a newspaper in the...”
Show all 22 chapters
Sponsor: CalShe
19:57 to 21:41
Promotion of the CalShe trading platform and its features.
“18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply.”
Dreamland Subscription and Exclusive Content
21:42 to 22:36
Introduction to the Dreamland subscription service and its benefits.
The Great Entertainers in Football
22:37 to 28:00
In-depth discussion on the concept of 'great entertainers' in English football and historical context.
“Liverpool beating Newcastle 4-3, I thought there needs to be a bar.”
Reviewing Recent Match Results
28:00 to 30:49
Explore the recent match results and how they contribute to the narrative of football's great entertainers.
“So, you know, a couple of slug champions for us here.”
Analysis of Team Dominance
30:50 to 31:49
Dive into the numbers regarding team dominance and title reigns in football history.
“Dave, can you break down this data for us in a way that is a little bit more digestible?”
Discussion on Managerial Performance
31:50 to 36:51
Engage in a conversation about managerial performance and the dynamics of team success.
“I trust you're going to be keeping track of this, Dave.”
Refereeing in Football
39:02 to 42:01
Discuss the impact of refereeing decisions on match outcomes and player performance.
“Dave says, might you be able to offer some definitive rulings on take nothing away from the finish?”
Coventry's League Journey
42:01 to 43:30
Discussion about Coventry's recent performance and league status.
“They felt pretty fresh, I think, when they came back.”
Fashion Faux Pas in La Liga
43:31 to 45:05
A humorous take on La Liga managers' fashion choices, particularly a Beatles t-shirt.
“Finally, over in La Liga, which is quite clearly the spiritual home, Dave, of managers dressing really, really badly.”
Keys and Grey Corner Returns
45:06 to 46:06
Celebration of the return of the original Keys and Grey theme tune, with a nod to nostalgia.
“whose back catalogue's going to be keep running over again and again, It's time for Keys and Grey Corner.”
B in Sports Birthday Celebration
46:07 to 48:39
Discussion of B in Sports' 22nd birthday and their celebrity messages.
“B in sports were marking a big milestone this weekend, Nick.”
The Word of the Year
48:40 to 53:30
A light-hearted conversation about the absurdity of 'six and seven' being named the word of the year.
“But no, here's some real dedication for you.”
Transcript
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1:08I recently got back from a holiday in Balec in Turkey. It was brilliant, but I did spend it looking longingly at the golf courses in the area. In reality, if I'd taken my clubs, I probably would have come back from that family holiday single. It's a brilliant place, stunning beaches, five-star hospitality in some of the best hotels on earth. But for me, just getting out on those courses would have been the icing on the cake. Search Turkey on TripAdvisor now to book your ultimate golf holiday in the Turkish Riviera. I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.
1:45Is Gascoigne going to have a crack? He is, you know. Oh, I say! Brilliant! Pachee! He's ran the goalkeeper, he's done it! Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was without a shadow of an out giving him lip. Oh, I say! It's amazing! He does it time and time and time again. Crank up the music! Charge a glass! This nation is going to dance all night! Subtle 1980s Derby County references in FA Cup penalty shootouts. Nigel Rio Coker fumbles around for the proverbial footballing phrase for some mid-game pushing and shoving. The best use of the Ellis James stock crowd noise so far.
2:37David Walker's deep dive into the linear great entertainers title holders of English football. The least cool item of clothing ever worn by a top flight manager. and Richard Keyes drags a very reluctant Andy Gray into the mid-2020s. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts, this is Football Clichés.
2:59Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry, this is the adjudication panel. Joining me first of all is David Walker. How are you doing? And more importantly, how are the gorillas? The gorillas were great, top class gorillas. I shook the hand of a two-year-old gorilla and fed a 42-year-old silverback. 42. Still going, still got it. What's more, as if your birthday couldn't be capped even more, you got a shout out on the big screen at Vicarage Road. I know. Yeah, that was nice. They gave me an AKA on the PA. Oh, nice. They read my name out and said, happy birthday to, among other people, David Cameron Walker, aka DCW.
3:41Nice. So what a moment that was. What a week I'm having. Yeah, you are in real Dan Byrne territory. Alongside you, he's back from Milan. What a weekend that sounds like, by the way. It's Nick Miller. One last hurrah for the San Siro for you, was it? Yeah, they finally seem to be knocking it down at some point. So yeah, they couldn't have gone on without me visiting one more time. So I had to go. We are still, however, waiting for Dion Dublin to break his silence on what a Deodora pass is, though. So all is not well in this world. Still time. Hopefully someone can put their tentacles out to Dion Dublin and get him to confirm that.
4:15Right, adjudication panel. This is going to be great. Let's start with this. Nick, which foodstuff is most famously cited for being as cool as in a penalty situation? Cucumber. Indeed. And logical. Makes perfect sense. This came from Joe Wills and Andy Cooper. It's from the BBC's coverage of Brackley Town's FA Cup penalty shootout win over Notts County. Martin Fisher on commentary duty as Alassane Jatta takes County's first spot kick. Alassane Jatta, the Gambian International against Johnny Maxted. Jatta looks as cool as Custard and hits the bar! I mean, it's a double whammy here, Nick. We've got a commentator's curse and we've got cool as Custard, which excites you more.
4:59It's all wrapped up into one kind of perfect little box. But I suppose, can you have cold custard? You can, can't you? I don't mind a bit of cold custard, actually. Yeah. I mean, this could turn into a twee discussion about food, Dave. But I mean, there are, you know, pun intended layers here. You could have cold custard in a trifle. You can have a custard tart, which could be eaten cold. Correspondent Andy Cooper said that his wife is from the home counties and she prefers her custard cold, where he's from the north and he prefers it warmer. So maybe there's a geographical thing. Yeah, what, does he have custard on his chips, does he, or something?
5:33But where does it, I mean, if you think about cool as a cucumber, is that just a purely alliterative thing? Why are cucumbers cool? Well, they're very fresh, aren't they? I mean, you know, you put them on your eyes to, you know, just, you know. Yeah, but it's like cool, it's not a temperature thing, isn't it? It's cool, it's like laid, he's as cool as a cucumber, he is. Yeah, I know, but of all the times not to be literal, you choose this one. Anyway, so we thought this was a very curious situation, cool as custard. But there is a story here, Nick, and it's a deep cut too. Martin Fisher is a Derby County fan, I discovered, and it is a reference to Trevor Christie scoring the penalty in a 2-1 win over Rotherham in May 1986 that secured Derby's promotion to the Old Division 2.
6:16Not surprisingly, the success man at Vetchfield, Trevor Christie, is to take it. Six minutes to go, Derby County penalty. 1-1 the scoreline. Christie looking as cool as custard. Comes back. 1, 2, 3, 4, shoots. Goal! Goal! Goal! That's nice. So there we go. At least there's an explanation here, Dave. That's the good thing. I don't think I've ever heard a countdown before, a penalty before, like that either as well. 1, 2, 3, 4, shoots. Nice. So this became Trevor Christie's nickname. He became Cool as Custard Christie, basically. But yeah, Martin Fisher just sort of... I mean, that doesn't feel like out of his remit.
6:52It doesn't feel like he's gone beyond his station there, Nick, to kind of impinge his Derby County fandom upon us because it was done so stealthily. Yeah, I mean, I suppose maybe he'd been waiting all these years to roll that one out in a Derby game. Yeah. But, you know, next best thing. Just to show my working here, Dave, I discovered that Cooler's Custard was a Derby County reference. Before I discovered Martin Fisher was a Derby County fan, so it all fell into place really nicely. But, yeah, Cooler's Custard is not an accepted term generally. Google AI's first thing is, yes, it relates to Trevor Christie, which is fantastic work by Google's AI at the very least.
7:27But yeah, so a truly deep cut. Glad we got to that one. Next one comes from Ben Nagel over in the US. He was watching CBS's coverage of Newcastle versus Spurs in the Carabao. And while he describes this minor set-two between the players at St. James' Park, well, he gets there in the end. Let's put it that way. Six minutes to go. This is the game that kicked off later and it's all kicking off, Nigel. I love it. Go on, son. and a little bit of hanky-panky, as we say, go around there. A little bit of handbags, as we say, but yeah, it's very feisty, as compared, that's what we want to see. Hanky-panky is superb.
8:01I mean, bit of slap and tickle in the box. What's how's your father? Is that? How's your father? How's your father would be a good term for like, you know, as we were talking the other day, Nick, about sort of an early reducer, letting him know you're there. It's just, just a little bit of how's your father, letting him know you're there. Yeah, Yeah, bring back 1970s innuendo to ambiguous footballing set twos. But yeah, hanky-panky. Haven't heard that for a while. But maybe he's thinking, well, they won't know either way over here in America. I can just drop it in. It sort of sounds fine. Handbags, he got there.
8:35But next one came from Sam Diamond. It's Wickham versus Fulham in the Carabao the other night. Andy Bishop and Tony Gale on comms with a reference that's very much you'd expect from a man of Tony Gale's vintage. Teasing on you, Dimba, then shoots past him and delivers to the penalty area. Touching the old Michael Flatley's there. Those going out to rate the feet there, wasn't they? Over the ball. It's so difficult. You've just got to watch the ball. But if you watch his feet, it's a nightmare. You'll have to Google Michael Flatley, kids. He ain't a player.
9:18what a dancer
9:23that really rounds it off so nicely nick what a dancer what dancer michael flatley was by the way yeah it was instinctively i would have liked to by the way but maybe that would have been too much on this occasion is it necessary i mean even excusing the lack of the flourish of the by the way dave is it really necessary to to sort of round that off with what a dancer what a dancer I know. The thing is, I suppose in Tony Gale's defence is no one's really taken Michael Flatley's mantle, have they? Since, you know, I don't know another famously fleet-footed Irish dancer since those days. I don't know.
9:56So I'm not a Strictly watcher, but someone on Strictly who could have taken the mantle? None of the pros have really stood out as like, you know, the world's leading exponent of whatever it is they do. Who was the Cuban guy who was really good at ballet for a bit? Not sure. well if you don't know carlos acosta cuban british ballet dancer he was he was like the guy he was the essentially the flatly uh different weight class i suppose but um but yeah uh don't really know who's taken on that mantle who is the world's number one dancer right now but it's more but i mean you could find one of those but it's very specifically with the feet it's the it's the river dance irish jig feet thing that we're talking about here we can't just have any old dancer for our tricky wingers.
10:38So yeah, double sympathy to Tony Gale there. One, there's no standout dancer to take on Michael Flatley's mantle. And two, Tony Gale is around 60 years old. So that's a double explanation. Right, time for footballers' names in things. Well, actually, this is football things in car adverts. Quentin O 'Neill sent this in. He says the new campaign for Cupra cars evokes a penalty decision that could have gone either way.
11:09One of them
11:16It's one of them It's one of them isn't it I mean There's no other context It just says one of them Doesn't build Doesn't go anywhere That advert Nope That's it That's the end of the advert As far as I understand it You've seen them given Relating to some kind of discount Seen them bought Yeah. One of them. Really good. Cooper cars can go either way. Left or right. Famously. Excellent. Really good. Dave's on form. But is he on form in For My Sins Corner? It's been a while since we've done one of these, but this is going to be a competitive For My Sins Corner. I'm going to play you a clip from popular culture, and I want Nick and Dave to jump in when they think the immortal words of For My Sins are about to be uttered.
11:56This came from Danny Grant, and it is, of course, from The Chase.
12:06Welcome back, everyone. Next to Face a Chase, it is Matt. Welcome to the show, Matt. Thanks, Brad. From Lincolnshire. Whereabouts in Lincolnshire are you? Just south of Sleaford area. OK, yeah, on the A1 there? Not far, yeah. Yeah, not so far. Just across the A1. And what do you do there? I'm a business development manager. In what sort of field? Construction, right? So we build big food factories or logistics warehouses, all that sort of thing. OK, when you're not working, what do you get up to? Well, I do all sorts of things, but I'm a big Lady Gaga fan. For my sins? For my sins. She's amazing.
12:35I've seen her back 25 times. Come on. I celebrate that almost with a finger wag. Yeah, fair play. That was a... I should have got there but can't fault Doug's victory in that one. Yeah. Probably worse. Yeah. He would feel... I think he would feel like he should say that. I don't think he should but he doesn't look like a typical Lady Gaga like one of the monsters. Right. Maybe he thought her accent in House of Gucci has taken the edge off her. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, good solid FMSC. Not a big fan of Joker Foley Adir. Right. Next up, listener Sam was watching season one, episode one of Britain's Most Historic Towns on Amazon Prime.
13:18Roman Chester, this one. As this local expert talks about the gladiators who battled there. Listen carefully right at the end. The specific class of person in the arena called a venator, a hunter. But of course the other thing that did take place was gladiators. Gladiator on gladiator. And would they stop before anyone was seriously injured or again, could it be a fight to the death? Sometimes there were fights to the death.
13:48Wow. Oh, wow. The versatility of the BBC crowd noise. I thought you were setting us up there for an ancient Roman bit of both. And then we get the Ellis James goal noise just chucked in at the end there. The earliest known usage in the Coliseum. Very probably the earliest attribution of this crowd noise. Portsmouth versus Carlisle, 6th of May, 1985, for a gladiatorial battle in ancient Chester. I mean, what moment, Nick, during a gladiatorial battle would someone go, maybe like the first real first drawing of blood maybe a real beheading in the middle of the arena the final blow I think the knowledgeable Coliseum crown or maybe would it be simply the emperor doing the thumbs up or thumbs down that could work actually the flow of the noise could actually work quite well for that but yeah there you go did anyone notice why was that guy giving the interview with a bit of Tupperware under his arm.
14:53That was very strange. It was a little box of sandwiches. Just pop down out of shot, mate. Listen, mate, it's a busy time out on the dig. I don't know. But anyway, yeah, that is my favourite use of the Ellis James crowd noise so far. Right, this next one came from Johnny Hall. We were talking the other day about what sort of distinguishes a comedy-owned goal from a bizarre-owned goal. And the BBC headline for West Ham versus Newcastle, mid-game, said Sven Botman scores a comical own goal but West Ham 2-1 up against Newcastle. Dave, that wasn't a comical own goal. That was probably one of the least comical possible own goals.
15:30No way a comical own goal. Just a real sort of corridor of uncertainty cross from Aaron Wan-Bissaka. Outstretched leg from Botman diverts it in. Absolutely right to go for the ball and try and clear it but it's just diverted it in. Nobody laughed. I don't think anyone would have laughed watching that scenario. Yeah, it was probably one of the most boring types of own goal, Nick. I mean, there was a certain elegance, element of spectacle to it. But yeah, not calamitous enough in any way, I don't think. People just don't think about these things. It's just the kind of instinct to go for the... But like, it's not a new thing.
16:07Some of the goals on own goals and gaffes weren't really that funny. Just Danny Baker was chatting over them and making wrier sides. Yeah, you've got to pad them out, haven't you? Happens to the best of us. but the um this is the thing is that this is a headline on the live blog right on the bbc yeah home page whatever so if you if you see that and you go oh bottman scored a comical own goal i wonder what might have happened how's he done this and then you see it you'd be really disappointed as well wouldn't you really disappointed i mean yeah i still i still hanker for moments like this and i yeah i would have been let down this next one came from jmc811 on reddit uh it's ray and jerky talking about working with pep guardiola he says it's very good he's crazy like me two crazy guys we talk about everything it's unbelievable football is all my life i eat football i sleep football i shower football nick is that the first verb is that a new verb for experiencing football in your life absolutely i mean i suppose you could it's a way of saying you're kind of immersed by it because you're you're that's you know you you're letting it run all over you i suppose i don't know i mean no it's not what i have heard before i wasn't didn't see it coming but it sort of makes sense if you use it in the context of eat sleep shower repeat it basically works doesn't it you know better than rave yeah yeah i mean nick's immersive logic is good i mean it it probably just harks more to the idea that uh that it you know it's part of your routine but but what is the hierarchy what do you know if you take all of the sentiment dave what is the hierarchy eat comes first yeah eat breathe then sleep does breathe come before sleep I eat, breathe, sleep.
17:39I think it's eat, sleep. Sleep always follows eat, doesn't it, I think, in these situations. I think breathing is more important than sleeping, personally. It's sort of implied, isn't it? It goes without saying. Can you drink? Drink football? Eat, drink, I eat, drink, sleep, breathe, football. Drink is a secondary one, but you can definitely throw it in there. I mean, is Liv too much of a kind of, is that too broad? Yeah, that's all things existence, isn't it? It's kind of an umbrella term, is it? Right, okay, fine. Right. He's suggesting that he's so into football that even in the shower, when for many people, your mind may wander to all sorts of topics when you're in the shower, but he's still thinking about where he needs to be on the pitch at any given moment in relation to the ball and the other players in that system.
18:20I can sympathise with that. I do some of my best mental organisation in the shower. I think about what I'm going to be doing this week. I really map things out. Anyway, next one comes from Tom Basin. Nick, he was watching Coronation Street the other night, and someone was reading a newspaper in the... What's the book called? The Rovers. The Rovers, sorry. And on the back of the newspaper was, Weatherfield County FC prepares for pre-season friendlies. So my first thought was, okay, I'll try and think of a progressive reason for this. Maybe they've switched to a March to November Scandinavian model for their seasons.
18:52But that doesn't work either, because they'd still be months away from the start of the next season. So mad. Absolutely mad. you know someone's heads again are going to have to roll for this this is like match of the day theme tune all over again and Wutherfield County just announced a lucrative pre-season tour for the summer they've announced it now don't like the word prepares here if so but it could be maybe they are announcing a money spinning Far East jaunt maybe prepares extends to like booking the travel and the hotel in you know Hong Kong or somewhere in-depth stuff from the local paper then if so enjoyed this Merovetch on Reddit says Darren Fletcher on TNT Sports that said that Mohamed Salah has joined the Mount Rushmore of Liverpool goalscorers after becoming the third player to score 250 goals for the club.
19:36Surely if he's third on the list he should already be on there.
19:42Infallible logic. Can you imagine Ian Rush's face on Mount Rushmore? Hang on, has anyone on Mount Rushmore got a moustache? I can't remember who else is on Mount Rushmore. Must be really annoying to have to do the moustache on Mount Rushmore. Oh, do we have to do one? Can't we just do it when he shaved it off? No, it has to be him at his pop. Oh dear. Excellent. Excellent stuff for part one. We'll be back very shortly.
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20:46That's the sound of zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine, and the power to burn body fat. Storm, energy for life. Storm Energy Blend helps boost metabolism, which in combination with exercise and a healthy diet helps burn fat. This product alone does not produce weight loss. Individual results may vary.
21:29oh look at that that is wonderful
21:36welcome back to football cliches um you a reminder that you can sign up for dreamland for just 5.99 a month for that you'll get ad-free listening two episodes a month of dreamland our exclusive show and other things as well just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com and on that note Dave on episode 10 of Dreamland the other day we were talking about how to play football the right way and the current swirling discourse about all that sort of thing and we finished the episode by talking about the concept of the great entertainers and especially in English football about who warrants that who has ever earned that and why and you went away and did some extra work on this yes I spent what turned out to be a few hours probably by the end of it on Friday night whilst birthday weekend no less yes whilst the the doorbell was ringing unrelentingly with uh trick-or-treaters to the point where i unplugged the doorbell and just left it to the upstairs flat to take care of business go away i'm doing statistical research for football cliche exactly um yeah so as i suggested on the pod we suggested that when liverpool beat newcastle 4-3 in the 95 96 season in that famous game they should have or they could if you like have taken on the lineal title of the premier league's great entertainers so i've followed that through all the way to the present day however i wanted i want to ask you to something for your thoughts on this because i did it once and then i realized later on i'd made what could be quite a crucial mistake so my methodology was as such.
23:11Liverpool beating Newcastle 4-3, I thought there needs to be a bar. We have to have a bar of like, how do we decide when a team is entertaining enough or a match is entertaining enough to take the title, right? So I've said you have to beat the current holders in a game that has over 4.5 goals to use sort of betting logic. However, in the midst of doing it all, I sort of forgot the 4.5 goals thing slightly and awarded it a few times to teams that had won 4-0. So they don't meet the 4.5 threshold, but a 4-0 feels like that should be enough. Yeah, I'm allowing it. Yeah, I'm allowing it. Because the reason I went for 4.5 is I don't want a 3-1.
23:46A 3-1 doesn't count. But I think so you either win 4-0 or buy one goal in a game that's over 4.5. So you can win 3-2. You can have a 3-2. You can't have a 3-1. So we're going to go with my original, the original workings then, okay? Okay. And interestingly enough, by the way, I did revise it and I got rid of the 4-0s and I ended up in the same place. For fuck's sake! The route was different. the route was different but the team at the end was still the same but anyway we'll go with the original the original workings okay so here we go you ready for this partner was out on Friday night was she so Liverpool beat Newcastle 4-3 they've got their title in 96 then 7th of February 97 Southampton beat Liverpool 3-2 at Anfield nice 30th of August 97 Chelsea beat Southampton 4-2 at Stamford Bridge 21st of September 97 Arsenal beat Chelsea 3-2.
Read the full transcript
24:39Are we doing all of them? We're doing all of them, mate. 6th of May, 98. Liverpool 4, Arsenal 0. So Liverpool have it. And then here's where it gets fun. 13th of March, 99. Derby beat Liverpool 3-2. Paolo Wanchop. Great entertainers. Paolo Wanchop among the goal scorers. Yeah. And then Sunderland beat Derby 5-0 in September, 99. Then they lose 5-0 a few months later in December to Waltersmith's Everton. Wow. The famously entertaining team. Tottenham beat Everton 3-2 in September 2000. Leeds beat Tottenham 4-3 again in September 2000. Then they lose 4-3 to Newcastle in December 2001. So they hold on to it for over a year, actually.
25:24Then Newcastle lose 5-2 to Blackburn in October 2002. Then they win it back. They beat Blackburn 5-1 in March 2003. Then Newcastle lose 6-2 to Manchester United in April 2003. Man United lose it to Middlesbrough in February 2004. Arsenal beat Middlesbrough 5-3 in August 2004. We need Charlie here really for some extra context. 1st of Feb 2005, Arsenal 2, Man United 4. And then they lose again to Middlesbrough. In October 2005, Middlesbrough beat Man United 4-1. Then Arsenal... When you edit this, are you going to do that thing where you fade out? near the start and fade back in towards the end or just going to go okay we've got a long way to go Arsenal beat Middlesbrough 7-0 in January 2006 then a month later February 2006 West Ham beat Arsenal 3-2 at Highbury then Bolton beat West Ham 4-1 in March 2006 same month Middlesbrough are back again they beat Bolton 4-3 then Reading beat Middlesbrough 3-2 in the first day of the Premier League season in 06-07 oh well I know where this is going well no sadly not actually sadly not because Arsenal beat Reading 4-0 a few months later before we get to that famous game Liverpool beat Arsenal 4-1 March 2007 and then they hold on to it for three years wow before losing to Man United 3-2 in September 2010 then in the famous Why Always Me game Man City beat Man United 6-1 at Old Trafford in October 2011 then Man United take it back beating Man City 3-2 in December 2012 then Man City take it back beating Man United 4-1 in September 2013 Aston Villa getting on the act in September 2013 as well beating Man City 3-2 Stoke beat Villa 4-1 in March 2014 yep then Man City beat Stoke 4-1 in February 2015 Man United beat Man City 4-2 in April 2015 West Ham come back into the picture in May 2016 beating Man United in the last game at Upton Park oh my god and then And then, look, this is what it's all been building up to.
27:30Here we go. On the 10th of September 2016, West Ham 2, Watford 4 at the London Stadium. Come on. The great entertainers. And then we lose it to Liverpool at Anfield 6-1 in a game that I was at, actually, on a cold Sunday in November 2016. Little did you know. Then Bournemouth beat Liverpool 4-3 in a notable game. I think that got game of the season recently in our submission from that guy who was picking out all the best games of the season. Burnley then come into the picture, beating Bournemouth 3-2, 10th of December 2016. Then Swansea beat Burnley. So, you know, a couple of slug champions for us here.
28:10Slug-tertainers. Then they lose Man United 4-0 in August 2017. Then Brighton beat Man United 3-2 in August 2018. That was a year to the day since Man United won it. 19th of August 2017. Seven years to go. Then 19th of August 2018. Fulham beat Brighton 4-2 in January 2019. Then Watford come back again for their second championship, 2nd of April 2019, beating Fulham 4-1. Then we'd lose it to West Ham 4-1 because we played the second team the week before the cup final, the end of the season. Oh, that's asterisk. Yeah. Then West Ham lose to Man City 5-0 on the opening day of the season, the 19-20 season at London Stadium.
28:50Then Norwich beat Man City 3-2 at Carrow Road in September 2019. to take it before losing 5-1 to Aston Villa in October. Then Aston Villa lose 4-1 to Leicester in December of that year. Then Liverpool beat Leicester 4-0 on Boxing Day, December 2019, holding it until 2nd of July 2020. So they could have been, when we didn't know football was going to come back, they might have held the title forever. Yeah, yeah. Before Project Restart came back, Man City beat Liverpool 4-0, Liverpool had already won the title. Can you be in the entertainers in front of an empty stadium? What's going on? I was just going to say, I personally would have eliminated all those games as not canon.
29:27Start again! Okay, oh no. We're nearly there. Then Leicester beat Man City 5-2 in September 2020, before losing 3-2 to West Ham in April 2021. And then just six days later, West Ham lose to Newcastle 3-2. Then Man City beat Newcastle 4-3 towards the end of the season in May 2021. then they lose to Brighton I think on the final day of the 2021 season they lose 3-2 then Brighton lose 4-1 to Man City in the next season in October 2021, Man City lose 3-2 to Tottenham in February 2022, then Tottenham lose 3-2 to Man United in March 2022, Liverpool beat Man United 4-0 in April 2022, Arsenal beat Liverpool 3-2 in October 2022 Man City beat Arsenal 4-1 in April 2023, Tottenham beat Man City 4-0 in November 2024.
30:23And then on the 8th of December 2024, last season, Tottenham 3, Chelsea 4. Chelsea are the current great entertainers. Fair play. Liquid podcasting for David Walker. I mean, wow. So, yeah. So from Liverpool 96 to Chelsea 2025, that is the lineage of the great entertainers. Some will quibble that it starts before then. Doesn't matter. So we had to start somewhere. Dave, can you break down this data for us in a way that is a little bit more digestible? So I am slightly fearful that somebody on the Reddit will go, actually, I think you missed a game back in 1996. And therefore, the whole thing's completely wrong.
31:03Well, so it could happen. And if that is the case, then fair play. But yeah, so a couple of things to pick out. The longest reign, 1 ,268 days, which was Liverpool from the 31st of March, 2007 to the 19th of September, 2010. Man United and Man City are level. with seven title reigns each. Right. According to this. Liverpool on six, Arsenal on six, West Ham on four, punching above their weight perhaps. Opportunists. The West Ham way. Yeah. Longest time between reigns, 9 ,940 days between Chelsea's defeat to Arsenal on the 21st of September 97 and their eventual victory over Spurs on 8th of December 2024.
31:42The George Foreman of the situation here. 9 ,000 days of hurt for the Chelsea fans it was so boring wow I mean listen fair play no man is truly 40 until they've they've run through every result that met a certain amount of criteria over the space of 30 years extraordinary stuff so yeah Chelsea there for the taking who I mean Chelsea are probably ripe to have that title ripped from them this season Nick adventurous at one end fairly fragile at the other could happen could well change It changed hands a number of times, I suppose. I trust you're going to be keeping track of this, Dave. I suppose I have to now, yeah.
32:22You're a rod for your own back. Fantastic. Right, let's return to one of last week's questions. A listener asked about the extremely precise tipping point where an ex-pro's boot could be bought online for the exact original RRP of the boots themselves. We got into some incredible nuance about what level of football will be required here. Well, listener Charlie was browsing Vinted, Nick, and stumbled across what looks like a very notable assistant referee. Their relative is selling this man's shirts on Vinted. So Premier League referees shirts on Vinted for£7. Charlie says they've done a bit of research and it's from the 2013-14 season.
33:04It would be ridiculous if this is match worn. So, wow. So referees are no use for this debate because the value clearly goes down there. Yes, but is this... Do we have to kind of introduce something? Because, I mean, presumably those aren't commercially available, are they? So I don't know whether we need to... I don't think so. Because there isn't really... Will obviously be a price or cost to the shirt, but there's no real kind of base level here. So we don't know what retail is. Fair point. It can't be a replica. Yeah, you're right. Actually, yeah, so it must be match worn. Yeah. No one's going to go to the trouble of stitching on the badges to a template shirt.
33:36I think maybe it's the sort of thing that actually should pop up in like an army reserve shop. Yes. They've got a few, just little referee, they've got a little referee section in there just in case anyone needs it. Seven quid. I hope he's given her permission to do this anyway, but I won't reveal the name because it just feels a little bit too, too intrusive to their lives. But yeah, and it just reminded me, Dave, of the person who turned up to the Manchester live show in 2024 wearing an EFL referee shirt. Yes. So there are people out there. Yeah, fair play. You've got a referee shirt, haven't you, famously?
34:05What one have you got? World Cup 90? Oh yeah, Talia 90, yeah. That's true, actually. Yeah, no badges on it though, so not match worn, I can confirm. Right, here's a conundrum for you both. As Vitor Pereira becomes the fourth managerial casualty of the Premier League season, George Whittle asks, I was thinking about the landscape of manager sackings and how their clubs are always described as underperforming. And it made me wonder, is there a season that could occur where every club is performing exactly to expectations and it would lead to no managers being sacked? Or is this never possible? For example, a set of newly promoted sides could all be relegated while putting up a fight and keeping their managers, or perhaps a long-serving fan favourite manager could keep their job despite a relegation?
34:43Thomas Frank at Brentford, for example. Could the current Premier League have ended in such a way that every club would be just about satisfied enough to keep their manager? Or would there always be one team just not happy enough? Maybe a big six team with no European qualification. Would love your thoughts on this. Nick, is this possible? Like, is this conceivable in the Maranakis era? Yeah, I mean, it would have to be a... Because you need, with the example cited with your Maranakis' around, you would need someone to not just be underperforming for the manager to get the sack, but you're also relying on no fallings out.
35:18True. Let's assume that happens. But yeah, so league position-wise, I think it's doable. Forrest is the wild card here, clearly. There's always going to be someone, if not the promoted clubs, who's happy with finishing 17th. Who's like, well, you just want to get to the 36 points or whatever the mark is now and stay up? Because your West Hams aren't going to be happy with that, are they? I think what you need is for there to be a team like Watford in 2016-17, where we finished, I think we finished 17th in the end, but it was on the back of losing the last five games. And we did then sack Walter Mazzari in the summer.
35:58but you need someone to have been safe and they're happy to let the last month drift. You don't need to sack anyone in that period. I suppose that thing could happen where Oli Solskjaer was really good at this where he'd look like he was going to be sacked and then he'd win a couple of games and stave it on. Life support, basically. Yeah, you kind of need about four or five teams in that sort of 17th and upwards bracket to just kind of do that on rotation for the whole season. So, you know, a team would go five games without winning and then they pull a couple of results out of the bag and the manager would be safe.
36:31Totally doable. It just requires a lot of spinning plates. I mean, and if you absolutely needed it, you could have someone like a Spurs winning the Europa League and finishing 16th or something like that. So if you absolutely needed it, but that would upset the apple cart and so that would have ripples. It'd be the butterfly effect of the Premier League. So let's not dwell on that. But yeah, George Whittle, it's definitely possible, but I refuse to map it out for you. Let's put it that way. I mean, the other crucial element to this is that you can't have any underperforming big teams. you need there to be a like really close competitive race for the top four maybe between five and six teams but you can't have a man united or a chelsea languishing in the bottom half obviously that's going to be a problem for them so you you need everyone to be in their rightful spot yes for sure and the five champions league places does help with this as well yeah so you can you know even if it doesn't sort of doesn't look like you're going to finish fourth there's a bit of safety net there as well.
37:21I agree. So yeah, I think there's enough in that league table to let everyone have a reasonable season.
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39:10Next question comes from Joseph Powell. Dave says, might you be able to offer some definitive rulings on take nothing away from the finish? AEK Larnaca's goal against Palace the other night came from a defensive error of a wayward pass followed by a cracking rifled effort into the top corner, which feels like prime take nothing away from the finish territory to me. I feel like I've heard it after deflected finishes as well, but if it's required a deflection to go in, surely that does very directly take away from the finish. I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts I don't think, yeah, deflections because if it's taking a deflection, unless it's sort of arrowing towards the top corner and then takes a deflection and goes in the other corner but surely by definition a deflected shot means you haven't executed the shot as well as you could have done, right?
39:52Because it's hit defender I feel like you could still get this phrase, Nick, if a co-commentator has loved the goal enough at first glance and then has had to soften their analysis on the replay, I still feel like you might get a takes nothing take nothing away from it yeah or maybe if there's a kind of defensive error involved there somewhere whether you know where the analyst is so preoccupied with the uh with the defensive error that they sort of don't notice the finish right and even if there is a kind of big deflection they they will say take nothing away as a sort of um like a need like an instinctive thing i think he's right though i think joseph is right in that yeah surrendering possession in a sort of hapless fashion in your final third that would be like i'll take nothing away from the finish i mean but you just you know it's criminal to to give the ball away like that yeah chronologically this works nick because it's like the presentation of the chance was completely fortuitous but yeah that aside everything that came after that was really really good so that that seems to me to be the perfect situation for a take nothing away but uh i wouldn't rule out say a goalkeeper maybe perhaps could have done better yeah yeah but you know still a great finish you know still have work to do still to get to dig that finish out you know take nothing away the keepers got a hand to it but to take nothing away for the finish yeah I'd accept that yeah not not a calamitous piece of goalkeeper but got a hand no I'm not having that I think that I think that ruins it surely that completely undercuts the whole thing if the goalkeeper should have saved it it's not a good strike I mean okay but if but if a goalkeeper did get a you know a fingertip to it but so you it would still be something of a caveat but but We're not in the realms of should have saved it, but at least got a fingertip to it, but take nothing away.
41:30But then that wouldn't be enough to take something away from the finish, actually, Dave. So that's the tipping point. Ah, interesting. OK, well, yeah, great question and great analysis. Ross FJ writes in next, Nick, and says one for the adjudication panel. Seeing Coventry top of the championship makes me hopeful to see them back in the Premier League. What's the ideal length of time for a previous Prem team to come back and feel fresh? Is this just a length of time or do they just need to kind of shed their skin a few times? Yeah, that's interesting. I think, how long was Sunderland away? There was like eight years, eight or nine years?
42:01I think so. They felt pretty fresh, I think, when they came back. And they went down to League One as well. I was going to say, maybe you do need a kind of League One dip. Right. To add a little bit of freshness to it. God, they've been in League Two, haven't they? Yeah. Shit, really? Bloody hell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had that weird spell where they were playing at Northampton's ground. So, yeah, they're incredibly fresh. so they've been about 20 years or pretty much isn't it since they were relegated 25 i think for coventry yeah 25 yeah yeah they're way beyond the threshold but yeah they'll they'll feel fresh they're overdue yeah yeah a lot of people are going to be happy with coventry being back in that respect i think so if you look at the championship at the moment you know the three relegated teams are underperforming at the moment so you've got coventry top millsborough second stoke third milwall fourth bristol city fifth preston six hull seventh charlton eighth before you get to Ipswich who are in ninth so that top eight obviously with the exceptions of Millwall Bristol City and Preston who have never been never been up there Hull I think no not been gone long enough would feel a bit boring I think and they can just never be as exciting as they were first time round can they really with Phil Brown and and all that Charlton would be I think Charlton would be sort of a bit of Barclays mid nostalgia for them if they came back up no question yeah Yeah, Charlton are quite Coventry-ish in that respect.
43:17Yeah. Yeah, and again, have been down to League One. A lot of chaos. A stadium that keeps surprising you how big it is every time you realise. Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh God, it's not 22 ,000 actually. It's fucking massive. Yeah. Okay. I like that. Finally, over in La Liga, which is quite clearly the spiritual home, Dave, of managers dressing really, really badly. If anything, this is where it all started. Elche's manager, Ada Sarabia, for his team's game against Barcelona at the weekend, sported a Beatles t-shirt. What? So it was the Fab Four in cartoon style with the Beatles underneath it, a white t-shirt.
43:52This might be the naffest thing a manager could possibly wear during a game. That's awful. I have to say, I did some digging just to make sure this wasn't like some tribute to somebody who was dying or something like that. I don't know. It's not a commercial tie-in or anything? Why would the Beatles be linking up with Elche? But I don't know. What a collab that is. Well, there's some more Beatles. The Beatles content machine is churning out some more stuff soon, so it could be. I mean, it was paired, Nick, with the classic La Liga standard issue faded grey jeans, possibly with some rips involved.
44:26Almost certainly, I can't see in the picture, but almost certainly some black trainers. Definitely going to be black trainers. I was thinking some white high tops. Oh, yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, so either way, what is going on? I mean, this is unacceptable. This shouldn't be allowed. I mean, we've seen some loosening of standards on the touchlines. Shirt and tie is clearly on the way out, and probably rightly so. But you can't have the Beatles t-shirt. What should happen here is he should be booked for wearing the t-shirt, and then he has to take it off, and then he'll get another yellow card, and off you go, sir.
44:56Yeah, he should be booking. You should be allowed to show your support for giant bands. But, yeah, it's a shame. But, anyway, speaking of the true greats from previous decades, whose back catalogue's going to be keep running over again and again, It's time for Keys and Grey Corner.
45:30We listened to the listeners, Dave, and it is indeed a triumphant return for the original Keys and Grey theme tune. Thank you to Bobby Goulder for his remixed effort. It was a one-off. We enjoyed it on the tour, but we can't fix what isn't broken, can we? Yeah. Is this our moment when Match of the Day messed around with the theme tune all those years ago? It is, I fear. Swiftly returned to the old one and pretended it never happened. But yeah, it was a great moment when we played it at the live shows, at least. Nick, am I thin-skinned or do I just like to run an effective market research activity on Reddit?
46:01It might well be a bit of both, but it's good to have it back and all things are back to normal. Let's start with this. B in sports were marking a big milestone this weekend, Nick. It's their 22nd birthday. They launched as Al Jazeera Sport back in 2003, of course. We all remember that. Strange landmark to mark, I would say. But they posted a load of birthday messages from a veritable who's who of football figures. Ashraf Hakimi, Jules Koundé, the Morocco manager. But can you guess, based on enthusiasm alone, which of these four Anglophone contributors is the one who works for B in sports? Happy anniversary to all B.in.
46:40viewers from me Oliver Glasner. Happy anniversary to B.in. sports from Ibera Izzet.
46:52Happy anniversary B.in. sports. All the best.
46:59Hello guys, I'm Marcel Bessay. Happy birthday B.in. Why? Why do this for the big 2-2, Nick? Why? This reminds me of, if anyone's ever seen the documentary about Radiohead Meeting People is Easy, which is basically, it's a documentary of a tour but it's also a documentary of five people having quite a slow mental breakdown and there's a bit in that where they're all doing radio idents. It's like, hi, I'm Colin from Radiohead and you're listening to 95.4 and they're just unravelling at the same time but hating every second of it. So yeah, the first three of those very much fit in with that. But I don't know, Maybe this is just Marcel Desailly's personality.
47:39I received the most enthusiastic turn down for an interview I've ever had from Marcel Desailly. He just basically said, I have no interest in talking about this topic. But he did so with more exclamation marks than I've seen in a very short message. So maybe he's just a very enthusiastic man. Yeah, he does seem to love life. But strange line-up of people, Dave. Well, so they had Oliver Glasner, Iberia Eze, Pep Guardiola and Marcel Desailly. so Palace Arsenal Man City clearly they've used their international broadcasters rights interviews to just get that little bit at the end of it which awful you know you only get so many of them a season or whatever you only get you know you'll only get Pep maybe once or whatever a season or something like that and it feels like it feels like a bit of a waste to me just to get them to do the little happy birthday thing you can get to do anything you can ask them pretty much you know within reason you can ask them anything or whatever you can have a bit of fun with them if you want but you've just gone, oh, can we just read out this thing for our 22nd birthday, please?
48:35Yeah, sure, no problem. Pep's going to be like, what, 22nd? Really? You wouldn't waste that one? You really? You've got one shot at this. Guys, okay, I'll do it. Okay. He has that same kind of expression on his face when if a Sky Sports reporter or a journalist who he's decided is a complete dunce has asked him a tactical question and he does that kind of, oh, isn't that cute that they're asking me about tactics and formations and stuff? That's nice, isn't it? Completely phoning it in. But no, here's some real dedication for you. Here is Keezy plugging the upcoming Under-17 World Cup on BN. And he and Andy Gray finally nail their international allegiance to the mast.
49:16Starting on Monday here in Qatar, which we like to think of, and I don't think it's a bold but accurate claim, at the home of sport these days, this small but powerful state of ours. That would be a good tournament. The Under-17 World Cup, yeah. Stars of the future will be playing in that There's been some big names Andy Oh you better believe it Trust me We play Italy Monday 1845 Home win Home win We'll beat you Italy Wow Wee Nick This is it Qatar are we to them now If it was anyone else It would have the kind of vibe of You know a member of the Qatari royal family Just standing just out of shot With their arms folded And just kind of staring hard at them A lovely little addition to the sub-genre of Keezy praising Qatar, we've had lovely little country, we've had gorgeous little country, and now we've had this small but powerful state of ours.
50:10He's saying all this while he's holding a football under his arm. I mean, is it the official football of the under-17 World Cup? Do they have such a thing? That looks like the new World Cup ball. Maybe it's the new World Cup ball. They had a separate chat about that in which Andy Gray observed that he thought it was a bit small. Yeah, Keyes had to point out it wasn't pumped up. Oh, dear. But yeah, if you want to hear Andy Gray utterly bewilders, here is Richard Keyes right at the zeitgeist. Now, concentrate, OK? Follow me here. Sunderland and Manchester United, six and seven.
50:54Go on. No? No. Six and seven. It's just been named as the word of the year by the ABC dictionary. Six and seven. That's not even a word. It's two numbers. Six, seven. The word of the year. Six, seven, the word of the year. What does it mean? It means so, so. It's a youthful phrase. Who invented that one? Well, I think Skrilla in a rap song from 2024. Okay. Doot Doot, I think was the name of the song. Who put it on the sunbook? It also applies to a Philadelphian basketball player who is six foot seven. So they put the song to some of his... I get that. And it's become a youthful phrase, Andy, for...
51:48Who said six, seven means this? Well, you just have to put your own interpretation on it to some degree. yeah I'll put nonsense beside it then yeah what it also means is in the know well that's definitely not me 6-7 6-7 it is the ABC in the ABC dictionary now it is the word of the year whoever writes the ABC dictionary should be sacked immediately let me tell you 6-7 goodness he should join Pereira whoever's the owner of that book should join Pereira P45 fuck me Dave they really strung that one out didn't they fucking hell good lord both really enjoying their roles there, playing it very knowingly.
52:28Keezy doing the tattoo with the youth aspect. Andy Gray completely overplaying the angry old guy. I don't want to hear doot doot ever again. Keezy very much having read but not entirely taken in a Mail Online article about this kind of... What's the ABC dictionary? I've never heard of that one before. That's not even the Merriam-Webster, is it? Surely not even in the big four of dictionaries. they've been sucked in by a PR email that's what's happened here absolutely classic podcast fodder or broadcast fodder is the word that's been declared the word of the year and they've been sucked right in but yeah wow poor old Andy Gray don't make him talk about 6 '7".
53:10Yeah you're right actually you're right that is the classic fodder so this is almost a window into an alternate universe where post Sky departures had they not been picked up by TalkSport and then gone on to be in perhaps they could have gone down another route where they ended up presenting like a local radio breakfast show somewhere. Yes. And this is the sort of stuff they would have been talking about if that had happened, if they were on local radio in Coventry. Morning breakfast radio exists on a diet of PR emails about things that have been declared something of the day. It's National Something Day today.
53:41Andy, we're going home. Beggars can't be choosers. But no, they're pure Qatar now. They're there to stay. We know that for sure. Anyway, thanks to you, Nick Miller. Thank you. Thanks to you, David Walker, above and beyond today, I'd say. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Thursday. See you then.
54:23out our weekly flyer on menards.com for all the great deals happening now. Save big money at Menards.
From the publisher
Adam Hurrey is joined on the Adjudication Panel by David Walker and Nick Miller. On the agenda: the story behind an FA Cup penalty shootout commentary curiosity, a familiar sound effect in a Roman history documentary, the least cool item of clothing ever worn by a top-flight manager, someone selling match-worn Premier League referees' shirts on Vinted and Keys & Gray switch their international allegiance once and for all.
Meanwhile, the panel enjoy Dave's deep dive on the history of the lineal Great Entertainers title in English football and ponder if a Premier League season could ever be completed without a single managerial sacking.
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