Expected leaves, driving "on the up" & absolute Ebony Rainford-Brent

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1:43That is very good. Bold! A team hat-trick! Oh, he's off! Rinsing away! He didn't try and hit it too hard, just caressed it through the field. Spent time at the Wicked, played bread and butter shots, keep it safe, took it off his hip and his legs, he's done that. Got him! Why did he do that? Unbelievable! What about that? It wasn't just one of those where it may stick or it may not. Remember the name! There's so much elegance about it, and yet it was quite brutal. Oh, he's over. What a river. What a good fish. Hello and welcome back to Cricket Clichés. I'm Daniel Norcross. Coming up in our difficult second album, England downed faster than a yard of ale by Jimmy Fivebelly's Gardener.

2:37We ask, what are the traditional stages of Ash's grief? England batters fatal attraction to on-the-up deliveries ironically sends their ashes dreams into a fatal tailspin as metaphors are mixed to breaking point and everyone appears suddenly to be insane with rage that instead of thinly mixing two days drama into five days the players decided to cram five days drama into two with literally no one least of all cricket being the winner But first, let's introduce today's panel, including our very first bowling change. Dan Gallon and Dave Tickner are both here again. Hello, fellas. Hello. Hey, Daniel.

3:18And we are joined, I'm delighted to say, by new cap cricket writer Charlie Reynolds. Charlie, who do you want to have hand you the cap? It's a ceremony now that takes place before every Test Match One Day International, almost like even when somebody plays for Surrey. in your wildest dreams who would you like to come to you and deliver you that cap? Well I mean I think who better than the doy and a British broadcaster himself Daniel Norcross this is the perfect we need to be handed it What a creep Yeah yeah yeah yeah that was pitiful That's how you get the new ball in your club Johnny I do always feel a bit sorry for the players that get a cut kind of slightly underwhelming one at the back end of a tour or something and said like, here you go.

4:04Here's someone that just happened to be here. I mean, I'm trying to think which one was the worst. I know which was the best. I can't remember who he gave the cap to. I think it must have been a Middlesex player, but a certain other Middlesex player with whom I have worked on many occasions told me that he was really nervous when he was going to do the cap presentation, right? It might have been to Toby Rowland-Jones. It was somebody like that, right? And he goes out into the huddle and he hands over the cap and I said, so what did you say to him when he got back into the comments box? What did you say to him?

4:35Well, Dan, I just said, what a fucking time to be alive.

4:44And I thought, actually, that is the best presentation speech you can imagine. Because imagine, if you get one from Alex Stewart, it'll be, you know, when you wear this cap, you wear it with pride, the three lions. It was, kiss the badge at all times, remember the people that have come before you, going all the way back to WG Grace, Gavin Hamilton, everybody who's been part of this great journey. And by that stage, you just feel the incredible weight of pressure on you, wouldn't you? But if someone goes, what a fucking time to be alive. I reckon that is pretty much spot on. I think you'd be more in that camp of cat presentation yourself, wouldn't you?

5:19Yeah, I think I am. I think I'm just going to do that to Charlie now. Charlie, what a fucking time to be alive. How do you feel? Confident now, yeah? Yeah, yeah, I'm fired up. this is what I want to hear right now then um we've got to address this matter it's fine for Dan Dan Galland's sitting there with the most unbelievable smirk on his face because South Africa have just pulled off a a clean sweep I don't know if you can have a clean sweep with two tests but we're going to give it to him they pulled off a clean sweep against India and what's more playing proper cricket teaching you flash basballers the the true merits of winning a game in the allotted time, not trying to get everything done in two days.

5:59So this is not just a victory for South Africa and Anglo-Foes, but this is a victory for all of cricket, I would say. It's a victory for common sense. Do you know what it is? It's a victory for proper cricket, which is a term that we haven't actually discussed yet on Cricket Clichés, but I feel strongly that we're going to proper cricket with proper cricket shots, which is so important. If you don't play proper cricket and proper cricket shots, then everything goes haywire. There wasn't so much proper cricket shots played. here in Perth in the two-day test. We've had the first Ashes test, the debut of Baz Ball down under, and it was quite a familiar scene, really.

6:36I mean, everyone else can dissect the cricket. We're not interested in that here, because apart from any of the various points, I dare say quite a few people on this podcast have already had to do it. But it now looks like 5-0 is the most likely score. And listener Edmund Thompson-Jones has said, the whole Ashes discourse on both sides ignores the obvious. The normal situation for England touring Australia is a massive defeat. In the last 35 years, they've only won six tests out of 45 down under, none in the last three tours. What is it that makes a whitewash especially superb to the Australians and especially degrading to the English?

7:13It's basically just normal at this point. Yeah, just a little bit quicker than usual. It's normally somewhere in the second test that I think, oh, this is going to be 5-0 this. it's not normally on day two but it's not a huge departure from the normal run of things and every single time England go to Australia there seems to be oh this time though this time's going to be different and it never is or almost never is I think it was I mean Charlie was with me in in Perth right and England were ahead at the end of the first session of the second day I can't remember them being ahead at the end of the first session of the second day.

7:54And Australian pundits were wandering around. They were using words like weak. They were absolutely losing themselves over Usman Khawaja and blaming golf. It was fantastic. Tables were turned. When it looked like golf was going to be Australia's downfall. What a plot twist that was. It was, wasn't it? I wasn't expecting that. Well, and Nathan Lyon was limping around. I mean, it was basically like that day. Was it the second or third day at Lord's in 2023? when Nathan Lyon limped off, England were on top in the game and they used that precise moment to toss their wickets away in gay abandon. I mean, to me, this is just like, you know, decent behaviour, isn't it?

8:31If you're a guest in someone else's country and you see them with terrible misfortune, Charlie, then you just got to like go, oh, I'm really sorry. Let's even things up. Let's just throw it all away. It's the polite thing to do. You know, that's all that we really care about. What I like is that this feels like the universe writing itself, that no matter what you throw into the bag, you mix it all up and the same thing comes out. There's something quite reassuring that you can basball it, you can Alistair cook it, you can play proper cricket, you can play funky cricket, you can wear bucket hats, you can wear traditional caps.

9:03It doesn't really matter. England will lose. And for me as an outsider watching, there is something quite comforting. And we spoke last week about my angst that people aren't behaving themselves, that the Aussies are acting like the English and English are acting like the Aussies. It is quite comforting in this tumultuous world that certain truths remain. So for me, I'm really relieved. I've slept a lot better this week. My morning coffees taste right. The sun is shining despite it being cold. Everything just kind of feels right with the world. Yeah, well, I mean, that's a bully for you, Dan. I mean, that's why we have you on, to keep ourselves grounded at all times.

9:36But I mentioned in the intro the phrase on the up, which is highly ironic given that England's fortunes are actually on the skin. but there are some people who are really annoyed by this. Listen to Neil Chandler and I understand where he's coming from. He hates the on the up and the reason we talk about on the up is because England's fortunes in the Test match hinged on three wickets going down in six balls across a case place of 10 minutes. After Ben Duckett had got out quite a good nut it might almost have been a seed actually. I don't know. It might have been a seed. Absolute seed. It's an absolute seed.

10:12I mean, Ebony Rain for Brent might have called it an absolute seed. More of that later on. But what it was, it was a decent ball. There then followed three guys getting out, all basically playing the same shot. And it caused consternation. Consternation on your screens, on your radios, and, I'm delighted to tell you, in the press box. As the phrase, on the up, was repeated by almost everybody. Journalists, commentators, the lot. and Lister Neil Chandler says, on the up drives me nuts. Any ball that has bounced is on the up. The batsman hits it. I mean, technically speaking, he's right. And actually, Graham Fowler, the former England player and Test Mat Special commentator, used to get really annoyed with hitting it on top of the bounce because he said, well, unless you're actually lucky enough to get the ball as it's coming down, which in a game of cricket is extremely tricky, right you're always hitting on top of the bounce on the moment you hit it guys what does on the up mean to you what do you mean by it i love i love that the listener points out that yes every single ball that bounces although you don't necessarily hit every ball on the bounce travis hit on top of the bounce travis hit a six uppercut under the bounce oh yeah so that that's quite a new development but we know exactly what he means you're on the up it's this it's this really kind of mysterious it's sort of like the length version of the corridor of uncertainty because it really also depends on on the size of the batter you know Tempo Bovuma hits every ball on the up because he's so he's so short but on the up is like it's a sign of a good player hitting a ball that would otherwise have needed to be of left or or just bunted or blocked it's perilous as the English batter showed because you shouldn't it's a ball you shouldn't really be trying to hit so you're either very good in in doing it or you're very foolish in trying to do it and going out there's no real winner when you try to hit the ball you know it's it's kind of a zero-sum game you either show your class or you nick off which is why i i do like on the up and i hope we keep it well to me on the up relies very much on the way your bat is as well because if you drive a ball on the up with a with a vertical bat that is a heinous crime for which you need to be put into cricket purgatory, right?

12:29But if you actually glide the ball with a horizontal bat through deep third, right, then you're Kane Williamson, then you're Joe Root, and you're taking a length ball. That's another phrase that we need to understand. You're taking a length ball, and you're driving a bowler, bracket in inverted commas, to distraction because he thinks he's bowled a good ball, and yet you're suddenly able to get it away. so the on the up ball is only an on the up ball because this is my contention fellas that it's played with a vertical bat and at that point you have basically wronged the gods of cricket i like on the up so i think it's like you know like length ball it's one of those cricket phrases that if you actually start looking at it closely yeah it doesn't actually make sense it doesn't actually eliminate any ball at all but we do all quite instinctively know what it means in the sense a length ball every ball is a length ball but we know what a length ball is yeah but but do we do we know what a length ball is i mean is a length ball a different length for someone who's like you know six foot eight from someone who's like five foot nine it's a movable feast the length ball right but the the aim of the length ball is the same it's it's not the same for every bowler or every pitch or every session or every batsman but or batter i should say um but it's definitely like the idea of it is the you know it's the all it's the ball where you don't know whether to play forward or back and you know it's it's there or it's thereabouts that's where the length ball is.

14:14Do you know what? We've got an embellishment to this as well, Charlie, because we've got the county length. So you bowl a county length. Is that a different length from a test match length? And if so, why don't county bowlers just bowl test match lengths and then they get picked the test team? I don't understand it. What's a county length? Well, you know, I think if you bowl a county length, then you're out of you're instantly out of selection from Rob Key. Yeah, bowling these lengths are because even at our level, when you run up and you bowl, everything's so automatic. You're trying to become an automaton where you're just naturally hitting a length.

14:50You know, someone's naturally good length. And I guess if you're bowling at a county length and you're on these stodgy, poor excuses for wickets that you have in this country, if you go into the hard tracks of Australia, you find that, yeah, people like Travis Head are just smearing and smoking and pinging you through the covers. And you were speaking about Williamson and Root, how they dab and angle down to fine leg there's something quite i don't know forgive the phrase but there's something quite like naff about it but um you know i'll just i'll just angle this one down down to the covers uh down down to deep third and what i like about australian decks is that you try that shit you're going to get nicked off you know don't come bring your milking ones and twos here you got to hit me on the up through the covers mate because if you try and angle me down like some soy boy you're going to get nicked off okay let's let's examine that for a minute And for a start, you just said Nick Toff, which for some people is a red card.

15:45They hate Nick Toff. They want Edge for some bizarre reason. Yeah. I don't mind Nick Toff, actually. I think we all know what Nick Toff means, isn't it? What do people prefer? Well, I think they like it when a commentator goes, Edge, gone! Whereas, I don't know. I don't mind Nick Toff. Nick Toff is absolutely fine by me. But I don't think we've got any closer to establishing where that length is. I mean, I think what they'll do is they'll try to say to us on coverage, they'll go, the right length here is six to eight metres, or, depending on the pitch, five to seven. So are we saying that basically on Australian pitches, that length is a little bit shorter?

16:25And if it is a little bit shorter, then why doesn't everybody just leave it? Which is the question that Crickviz have been asking, because they have come up with expected leaves. Now then, this is football encroaching on cricket. Or is it cricket encroaching on football? I don't know. Either way around, it's some kind of hideous hybrid that we've now got. Expected goals, I don't really mind particularly. But expected leaves. I mean, if Ben Duckett is playing, no ball. There isn't a single ball you can bowl. There is no length that is an expected leave. But in fairness to Ben Duckett, when he plays the length ball, he plays it with a horizontal bat, which is kind of my original point.

17:08Have you ever heard anything that's given you quite as much ick this week as expected leaves?

17:16Just do we need it? I don't think expected leave is bringing anything. They do like expected runs and expected wickets. And I sort of quite like that because I think fundamentally with cricket, luck plays way more of a role than any of us would like to admit because it sort of hits at the heart of what sport is supposed to be. But the difference between nicking off and playing and missing early in your innings can change absolutely everything about how the whole day goes. There's almost no innings of any greatness where you can't find one ball early on where they've played and missed. And on another day they nick it, they're gone.

18:04It's over. That's a fundamental part of the game. and I quite like the expected runs and expected wickets because it gives you an idea. Like it was, what was it? The Zach Crawley 100 at Old Trafford was like, it had insane expected runs, expected wickets. You know, he got 189 or whatever it was, but the expected wickets during his innings was about 5.6 or something crazy. But he, you know, the stars aligned for him on that day and he got those on. but expected leaves does this tell us anything that we didn't already know from watching them get out to crap shots it isn't an expected leave is it it's actually trying to create some kind of moral compass around what you should do with the ball let's not introduce another moral I know I do with hesitation I always just wonder with these things with these new stats as Ticker says you know runs and wickets yes that is what serves a cricket match we want to know how many runs and how many wickets you know and whenever we get something new like this i always wonder what is the end goal are we going to get expected blocks are we going to get expected cuts are we going to get expected padding up to leg spinners outside outside the leg stump you know where does it end it feels like a very slippery slope well exactly and more more importantly for you dan when are we going to get expected scythes when are we going to get expected mooses when are we going to get expected larrys hopefully soon if we are getting it you need to get in on this dan you need to be yeah you know yeah can i trademark that i i don't really care for it really because I think what it is is it's a stick to beat some people with isn't it?

19:40Someone who's aggressive right who doesn't want to play the South African way they are now going to get beaten up because they didn't care enough for the badge Well yeah that's the only interesting thing about the statistic is how on earth they calculate it because as you said Ben Duffy doesn't leave anything. The match situation that impacts it just seems like there are too many variables and not enough regularity across the different bats. It's not a keeper. No, it isn't a keeper. It isn't a keeper. But like I say, I think it's a slippery slope towards basically encouraging cricket fans to wait for the England team to arrive with their bags, which they will do on the 9th or 10th of January, looking sullen and downcast.

20:28And having people shout, mate, mate, do you see how many shots you played? to expected leave deliveries of over 68 %? Because that's what's going to happen. Because all three of those had an expected leave percentage of 68 % or more. And that suddenly became a really big thing where I'd never heard it before. I'd never even come across this notion. Everyone's suddenly nodding sagely at yes. That felt like about a 0.68 to me. Yeah. 32 times out of 100, I'd expect to see somebody play it. Which therefore means it's quite frequent, isn't it? You bowl that ball... One in three is quite often. Twice in and over, someone's going to play at it.

21:06It's not the most shocking thing I've ever seen in my life. If it was an expected leave rate of 98%, then you'd get me interested.

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23:11Anyway, the last thing on this is natural length bowlers. Because we've been talking about length and you hear commentators say, you know, what a bowler's natural length is. and in a sense again we sort of understand that to mean that if you're really tall your natural length is back of a length which is a dangerous phrase to use i'm familiar with that and therefore you're unlikely to hit the stumps i'm thinking here stephen finn right and then they'll say well he's six foot eight so he can't afford to be you know the word i'm about to use full and floaty. Floaty. You can't be full and floaty, right?

23:51That's your county length. Why is it that someone of six foot eight is not allowed to bowl a full length? And yet when Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad were opening the bowling for about six years, commentators were going, they're just bowling it too. They've got to put it up there. What? To a full and floaty length? Or maybe their natural length doesn't allow them to do that. I just don't know what's going on. Someone help me out. Is this about height? or what is it what is it this accusation followed Mornay Morkle yeah seven foot whatever throughout his entire career oh but but then when he would just bang it in short and players would just rock on the back foot and pull him away he's got to put it up you know pitch it up make him play make him drive it's like yeah but I'm a six foot nine man you know my my good length my natural length is not just back of the length is quite short so look I'm not going to feel sorry I I tell after three pints i tell all my my club mates at my rubbish sundays that if i was morning morkel's heart i would have been a better cricketer so i don't have i don't feel sorry for these tall lads who just can run up and land it on a good length but yeah that that floats thing what what is it about the mechanics of a really long man turning his arm over if he gets it up is it just that he's it doesn't like the inertia of the arm coming around takes too long and by the time he lets go on a full length it's it's lost momentum is is that what's happening oh there is something about a tall bowler who gets it really full that it does just feel floaty instinctively and it should it shouldn't should it because like all logic should say that the taller you are the fuller you can bowl before it becomes floaty because it's gonna bounce more and yet it's stain and anderson you kiss the surface not bowl it into the surface and why is it always the surface and never the pitch by the way it's always the surface in these conversations but why why isn't the the taller bowler should be fuller but it's not is it we all know that it's shorter for the taller they've got to be able to define what kissing the surface is because to me i think what it must mean is that it spends less time on the ground and loses less speed you can't kiss the surface with a heavy ball no absolutely not you can't kiss the surface you cannot kiss the surface with a heavy ball and yet it's a different kind of kiss i mean it's a it's a peck we're talking about as opposed to a nice lingering romantic kiss it's perfunctory because the english are so absolutely hopeless at romance and we've invented this notion so it's just a little peck on the cheek dear i think there's a height limit for how tall you can be before you you you are unable to kiss the surface like we we know that morning morkels finn marco jansen these guys are too tall to to kiss the surface so what is it like if you're 6 '2 you're no longer able to kiss the surface because the ball is coming from too steep an angle do you have to be delivering it from slightly shorter that it just yeah off the surface how tall is james anderson 6 '1 something like that that that's that's your limit james anderson can kiss the surface right because was broad ever accused of kissing the surface no he was floaty right when he when he tried to kiss it he was floaty yeah it's definitely a trajectory thing i think but this would suggest wouldn't it that like you know most women bowlers are much are shorter i mean i'm not i don't even have to introduce Ecta Bist again, although there's a second week running I've mentioned Ecta Bist, but that's because she was 4 foot 11 and bowled slow left arm.

27:11And really slow, 38 mile an hour slow. But in theory, therefore, loads and loads of women bowlers should kiss the surface. So Shabnim Ishmael, would she be a classic kiss-the-surface bowler, whereas Lauren Bell has no chance of kissing the surface. But most women should kiss the surface in that case. But here's another one. If a bowler's 4 '11", can you hit them on the up? Oh. That is a cracker. I do like that. This could be a David Richard Derek Tickner moment, you know. Robert. This could be our first of the series. Because kissing the surface also requires pace, I think. And maybe that's why the shorter women bowlers who aren't able to crank it up.

27:57Ishmael, she is the quintessential kisser of a surface. But I think there has to be some pace. We talk about Steyn and Anderson. They've got some wheels, as it were, that requires the kissing. If you're too slow, then there's a danger that you might bite into the surface. So I think when a kiss slows down, it becomes a bite is what I would suggest. I think with kissing the surface, the trajectory comes into it quite a lot. It's kind of like skimming stones. You're kind of pinging it off the pitch. I think that's right. It's got to be that. You can't do that from a height. we're going to move on from kissing the surface because it's it's all it's taking us down a terrible rabbit hole now tickers uh let's move on to something that you've tweeted about first rule of ash's catastrophe down under there should never be sympathy for those on our massive holiday in australia the real heroes sounds like you're talking about yourself here the real heroes are shivering in the freezing cold at home trying to operate uh on 90 minutes sleep i mean the only cliche you didn't really use there was under the duvet listening to test match special um are you the real heroes i mean i did an event the other day and you know with a bunch of thoroughly likable people i'm absolutely sure and i've got a show of hands after the test match said how many of you have come out here for just one test match right there was a room of about 250 people how How many have come out for just one test match?

29:24About 70 arms shot up from very angry, very disgruntled people who had paid upwards of four and a half grand each with flights, hotels, tickets, in order to watch a two-day test match. And you're saying that there can be no sympathy for these people, especially when they come. Imagine the wife, you know, it doesn't have to be the wife, but often it was the case in this instance, where there was a husband who had said, this is on my bucket list I've just got to get to Australia to watch the ashes and this really lovely tolerant woman had said yeah and sometimes it's the other way around there were a couple like that but the majority was the other way around was was the men forcing this stuff on their wives and they've just spunked nine grand up the wall for two days of cricket and however much I go oh but you'll always have the memory of that wonderful first day when England bowled better than you've ever seen in your life.

30:19It's cold comfort, even in a modestly warm Perth, isn't it? There was a brilliant couple I saw on the BBC, you just reminded me there, where a guy absolutely distraught. Clearly, this is the one ashes test he's ever going to go and see in Australia, and he was in bits. And his wife was absolutely delighted that they were going to spend the next three days at wineries. She couldn't believe her luck. She was thrilled with it. it's such a classic story that you get at some point during the standard england catastrophe in australia i understand like it's an if you've got suddenly usually two on this occasion three days of column inches to fill and there's suddenly no cricket to do it it's a it's quite an easy story to find angry England fans who've done their money and you know like you know I've pissed that up the wall and England you know they didn't think of me did they they've disgraced themselves but I just think like the audience that these stories are supposedly for is back home in England we've had six cans of Red Bull and had to do the school run while being able to see the concept of time itself and they're freezing cold and i'm not talking about me what do you mean me how dare you this isn't me at all possibly no and it's like these these stories they're always full of pictures of like people doing this you know local newspaper compo face but they're in a bar in australia the sun is shining and they've got a beer in their hands and why are we supposed to feel sorry for them.

32:04I get where you're coming from. If you're going to Australia to watch England play cricket and your enjoyment of that trip hinges on whether or not England absolutely shit the bed, history's against you. Yeah, you've gone on the wrong trip. You've gone on the wrong trip, haven't you? Yeah, you've absolutely not nailed that one. There was one couple who were talking about, oh well we got a wine we got a wine tasting books and we're going to go to rottenness island it's like yeah you've just actually bagged yourself a an extra three days of holiday i'm totally with tickers i think any sympathy should be with the people us back here dan daniel i think you're just saying this because you are there and you had to now fill some time but yeah that couple that were going on the on the wine tour having watched what was you know it was short but it was two days of great cricket i mean it was entertaining so i mean that sound like they're having the time of their life.

32:59I don't feel sorry for them at all. Everybody says this on the TV, you know, they go on about how absolutely marvellous Perth is and, you know, how lucky everybody is to be out here. Charlie knows as well as I do. It's basically hot Croydon. You're done in 48 hours. You know, less than that. Yeah, well, as long as you don't want to do anything after 9.30pm, it's the perfect place to be. No, it's a shame, considering that it's sort of 5 ,000 miles from anywhere else, that there isn't a bit more going on. Yeah, but they keep on banging on the TV, don't they? Oh, we've got the wonderful Margaret River.