Giant lanyards & England camp mood updates: The listeners' World Cup loves & hates

20:21Charlie Eccleshare:That is the question I was going to ask Nick. Like what commentator is going to break the seal on this information first? I can confirm that Sweden's first game is of course on ITV and it's not Matterface who I would have had right at the top of the stakes here to gleefully reveal that information and rightly so, but it's actually Joe Spate and Lucy Ward who I think will enjoy this information. I mean, I don't know if he's a starter, Lager Bilker, which may affect things, but if he comes on a sub, that's more likely for the information to be relayed because you're going to want to get it out of your notes, aren't you?

20:52Charlie Eccleshare:So, fingers crossed.

20:53Nick Miller:And also you could do a sort of second in line for the right-back slot and 254th for the country's throat.

21:00Charlie Eccleshare:If Lee Dixon gets hold of this information, Nick, mid-game, I can imagine him saying 254 he's got no chance he's no chance of the throne in the next 10 years is he? what's the point? 254 might as well be me so yeah

21:12Nick Miller:254 I'm about that aren't I? fat chance like to see that what you'd be better

21:18Charlie Eccleshare:good chat and speaking of good chat guess who's got a podcast guess who's got a brand new podcast his name is Jamie Vardy and Nick it's called Jamie Vardy's Having a Party sure yeah sure here's the description of his podcast and they're always the same, these podcasts. It's a larger-than-life sports entertainment built for digital native social-first audiences. It takes fans inside the biggest stories, fiercest debates, and most entertaining personalities in football. Why? I mean, I completely defend Jamie Vardy's right to have a podcast in this stage of his life and career. But why? Why does it have to promise people that it's going to take fans inside the biggest stories?

21:59Charlie Eccleshare:Why encumber Jamie Vardy with the task of taking fans inside? He's not an investigative journalist. We don't need to do it. Just do other stuff. Do a bit of banter. Tell some anecdotes about your career and who you pissed off and who you didn't train well under and that sort of stuff. I don't need, Nick, Jamie Vardy to take me inside the biggest stories. Even, I think I've listened to any of these podcasts, but even I could have accepted that there isn't really like a limit to the demand for those kind of fun stories from your past career. Just tell us about the party you had at your flat when Tottenham lost to Chelsea.

22:37Do the Skittles story, Jamie. Go on. Do the Skittles thing. So talk about, I don't know, maybe you could tell us a little bit about the Wagga the Christie trial. I don't know. Yeah, we don't need his take on the latest goings on or whatever.

22:53Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, it's been co-hosted by Manish Basin, Charlie, who I suspect is going to do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to taking fans inside the biggest stories. Minesh, would you mind just doing that? Would you mind the inside story taking? That would be great.

23:06Nick Miller:I love the idea of Vardy really feeling like he has to live up to this promise. And like, you know, when there's the next Chelsea manager sacking or something, he really is like hammering his sources in order to take listeners inside this story. Yeah, testing down the drink water. You play for Chelsea, didn't you? Yeah, brilliant. Look, I'm hearing conflicting things coming out of Cobham. What I will say at this point, it is a moving picture. And look, more as I have it.

23:31Charlie Eccleshare:Manish, I've only got two things for the long read headline. Have you got a third? I need a third. The first time Jamie Vardy used the phrase direction of travel, I think is the point where this podcast has peaked. Oh, dear. Yeah. All eyes on that one as well. So many podcasts for us to keep our eyes and ears on. Footballers' names and things for you. Very quick one. It came from an article about asteroid geology research. One professor of the art said this provides more opportunity for life to develop, evolve and spread. It supports the concept that early life on Earth may have found a long-term home in impact craters and possibly even life on other planets where these massive impact craters are dominant surface features.

24:07Charlie Eccleshare:Meanwhile, Chris Kirkland at Curtin University in Perth, Australia, says while there is not an entirely unambiguous record of continuous hydrothermal activity at Chicxulub, the evidence is strong that the impact site stayed hot for millions of years. Wow! We had him recently, didn't we? Yeah, saving penalties at a farming industry event. Yeah, don't think it's happened yet. So he's busy. Yeah, wow, he is getting about. Yeah, fair play to him for saving penalties at a farming industry event, knowing full well that life on Earth will cease to exist at some point in the next thousand years if we get struck by an asteroid.

24:42Charlie Eccleshare:But before then, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands for Virtual Private Network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while traveling. Now, an early contender for AI-created branded content slop of the World Cup goes to baffling internet behemoth, Goal.com, for their series of videos in which Jose Mourinho has fierce footballing debates with Jose Mourinho.

25:15Nick Miller:I like England. Immaculate in qualification. Eight wins in eight. No goals considered. For me, this team can go all the way. England always look good in qualifiers. Knockout football is different. Maybe the Lions turn into pussycats. But this group has tournament experience. They know how to reach finals. Yes, they know how to reach them and how to lose them. Finishing second is the same as finishing last. They are very dangerous in attack. They have one of the best strikers on the planet. And at the World Cup, that means a lot. And if they go to penalties, I prefer not to speak.

25:51Charlie Eccleshare:My first question, Charlie, is why has one of them got eight out of 10 Jose Mourinho voices and the other one has a three out of 10 Jose Mourinho voices? Is that to differentiate them for audio listeners? Why does this exist? One's really Bonneville.

26:04Nick Miller:Yeah. Which, you know, you're always on the edge of with a Mourinho impression. We've seen the danger of that here. one of them hasn't taken his coat off you're not staying jose what's what's the point what's

26:14Charlie Eccleshare:going on here gonna be a long tournament for this sort of stuff but if you want to try nordvpn for yourself go to nordvpn.com slash cliches and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan it's the best discount available there's no risk with nord's 30-day money-back guarantee and the link is also in the podcast description if you need it we'll be back very shortly with the listeners world cup mezzat harland dicks

26:47Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

26:54Charlie Eccleshare:The second part of our World Cup doubleheader will be released imminently, if it hasn't already been by the time you listen to this. If you're interested in Dreamland, you can sign up for just£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes, plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, plus other things as well. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. Right, time for the listeners' World Cup mes at Haaland. Dix, we've received many of your World Cup-specific fascinations, irritations. We kick things off with this from Scott Jones. Hiya, boys. One of my many fascinations and loves with the World Cup is the famous fans you get, like the Birdman of Colombia in the 90s who used to be dangled off the top tier wearing that magnificent costume.

27:37Manolo El de Bombo, the Spanish guy with a massive drum. Gaucho de Coppa, the Brazilian fan. And this World Cup, we're going to have the DR Congo fan who wears those fantastic suits with his arm in the air, a reference to Patrice Lumumba. And I think he's been made part of the actual DR Congo delegation. Brilliant. By the way, I'm now including the England fan

27:56Charlie Eccleshare:who looks like Stephen McLaren in this. Cheers, boys. Cheers. Lovely bit of Home Nation's angst there at the end, Nick. But what is it about the World Cup that brings these specific individuals out that the club game just doesn't seem to possibly a kind of novelty value in that if if you like that guy at portsmouth with the bell right oh of course the first time you saw oh that's that's funny he's wearing he's wearing a waistcoat and no shirt and a big top hat and ringing his bell that's it that's unusual but by the third time you saw him facing a string of very serious allegations yes yeah but actually side issue he he runs he certainly used to run a bookstore in Portsmouth and it was like one of those early things in lockdown was like well no one's buying any books any chance anyone wants to chuck us a few quid and it took a sleuth to kind of put the two and two together anyway sorry what an alter ego that you get you grow weary of quite quickly whereas in the World Cup it's kind of contained and you know obvious by its nature every four years so it's like oh Columbia I wonder if that eagle guy is going to be there again.

29:05That'll be fun, won't it? And then you can forget about it for another four years.

29:09Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe there are some factors here, Charlie, that lend themselves more to a World Cup. It is inherently more colourful, the World Cup. There is a sort of higher tolerance for dressing up in costume. I mean, it's very much just a final day of the season thing in the UK in the club game. But you are representing your country at a World Cup and they often will go beyond stereotype to do so. and I don't know I just I remember back to the 2014 World Cup final and there were a couple of famous sort of close-up figures in that game do you remember the guy who was eating his shirt now he wasn't a specifically individual fan of notes but it was an iconic image but there was another guy really old guy with a moustache who was hugging the World Cup trophy and looking back I saw a picture of it the other day Charlie and it looked probably like AI I'm so AI coded now from my doom scrolling that it really looked like someone had done up an image of an old bloke hugging the World Cup because his team have just are about to lose.

30:09Charlie Eccleshare:Well, it was World Cup final. It was World Cup semi-final, of course. But yeah, yeah, dreadful stuff. But England's World Cup guy, is he our first individual star fan, the England World Cup guy? He's making a big effort to him. I quite like him. He seems like a nice bloke.

30:25Nick Miller:Yeah, I think of it more. Yeah, probably because I think of more what always used to stand out to me was those flags and it would be, you know, the england supporters group from wherever you know jersey or yeah from seemingly often quite um surprising places i guess yeah broadly it is it's just the divergence you know there is going to be more variety with what was 32 now 48 nations from all over the world compared to you know for us it's unlikely that we're going to be so fascinated by like oh wow have you seen what the Hull fans are doing you know they've come dressed in orange this is crazy um maybe just

31:03Charlie Eccleshare:as far as England goes Nick maybe they prefer to be considered as more of a kind of collective rather than individuals shining out I mean before the World Cup guy whose name continues to escape me before that we I think we just had the kid who shaved his head to look like Sven but he doesn't count because he didn't go to the game so I'm not really allowing him other than that I don't know There was a famous one who went to the cricket all the time. Oh, yeah. Who looked a bit like Jimmy Savile, which was kind of unfortunate, but also made him quite distinctive. And he recently popped up as standing for reform in a local council.

31:41Charlie Eccleshare:Fantastic. What a description. Put all of that in your Hinge bio. The England guy that we're now talking about, it popped up in an advert the other day. so there is a kind of it's just the moment these people go viral you'll get someone like a Paddy Power or something who will sign them up for a few grand and then they'll be everywhere Is it the last dance Charlie for the England World Cup guy do you think? Or has he got one more tournament in him? I don't know

32:13Nick Miller:See how this goes

32:15Charlie Eccleshare:Do you think the Manchester City bottle guy just picked the wrong level of football. I think he should be going to the World Cup and drinking somebody else's tears at an international level, Nick. Well, if he really wants to cash in, then yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can he make the step up? I don't know if he can. Thanks for that from Scott Jones. The second fascination for our listeners comes from Lloyd Cole. He says, FIFA have recently posted some excellent 10-minute highlights of various classic World Cup matches, including England versus Germany in 1970. With England 2-0 up with 20 minutes to go, Franny Lee slossing in towards the left side of defence is hitting the balls bang on from short range he keels over in agony and doesn't get up moments later franz beckinbauer takes advantage of the space where lee would have been and scores the goal to get germany back in it they eventually win 3-2 thus essentially starting 60 years of her and all the law that goes with it as far as i can tell nobody has ever mentioned this since 60 years of her starting because an england player got hit in the balls feels like an important discovery surprised it isn't more of the england story i mean it's news to me nick miller amazing News to me as well.

33:19I mean, the kind of the sliding doors law of that game has always been Gordon Banks's dodgy beer bottle. Yeah, of course. Which was a subject of an insane podcast. I don't know if anyone's listened to this.

33:33Charlie Eccleshare:Have you heard this? Yeah, we talked about it briefly recently, Charlie, the CIA conspiracy to poison Gordon Banks. But was there a CIA conspiracy to get Franny Lee hit in the balls by Franz Beckenbauer? Beckenbauer did later move to the NASL, of course. So was that facilitated by him picking up a few dollars in exchange of whacking Franny Lee in the balls and thus starting 60 years hurt for the England team?

33:56Nick Miller:I mean, this could almost be an and all that. Franny Lee's balls and all that. That absolutely could have made it into the World Cup folklore.

34:04Charlie Eccleshare:You know, in terms of the visibility of this story, Nick, I can't guarantee it's not been told before as a story. I don't think Lloyd Cole is the first person to spot this, but franny lee must have told this on the after dinner circuit like this is classic england squad member story i was hitting the balls and they went and scored straight away after that in among tales about his success in the toilet roll industry yeah i have watched the footage back charlie it's a proper like you couldn't script someone being hit in the balls in the middle of a game better it's franz i think it's franz beckinbar had the initial shot i'm not sure but it's straight into the groin from about four yards and he just he goes onto his haunches and then he just goes over and and it did make you think should should games be stopped for ball

34:53Nick Miller:hitage in the same way that head injuries are i think quite possibly i mean you can do some serious serious damage i mean obviously everyone would go mad at the ref but harder to fake than a head

35:04Charlie Eccleshare:injury everyone would have to see the incident and be sure that it had happened to you you can't just suddenly go down like feigning contact could you well i suppose if it hit you in the stomach then i suppose you could claim it too much of a gray area yeah it is don't tell ifab was that when you watched it was there any kind of any protests like you know you should kick the ball out of play here or is that is that kind of a more you know modern woke thing yeah um not as far as i can see sportsmanship was very high on the agenda back then he did like he did go down on his knees and he was basically out of the game but everything else happened so quickly that i don't think anything else would have materialized sort of protest wise because beckinbough just sort of got onto the ball very quickly and scudded a shot in from about 25 yards but yeah i i don't remember this being in any of the big books about england's history that's all i'm saying so people need to pull their finger out when it comes to the england history right our third and final listener fascination of the world cup comes from john ashley he says i want to talk about the giant badge and lanyard situation specifically for head coaches i imagine carlo ancelotti being frog marched out of the stadium for refusing to wear one meanwhile thomas tucall seems like the kind of manager who would sleep with his lanyard on just to be sure um they have been getting bigger charlie is it does tennis embrace the lanyard yeah and it does with with that point about

36:21Nick Miller:ancelotti being frog much out of the stadium there's often kind of viral footage of roger federer forgets his lanyard and isn't allowed in it's like rules are the same for everyone roger And I think there was a thing, Igor Shviontek had a situation as well. I think he may even have been at this Australian Open. So yeah, they are. And also, I mean, with the like, it seems like the kind of manager who would sleep with his landing on, just to be sure. Like I'm very much a, as soon as I get back to my hotel room at the end of a working day at an event, put it straight in the bag. I'm leaving nothing to chance.

36:51Nick Miller:Like it's, you know, it's a precious thing. It's everything. Why are they so big, Nick, at the World Cup?

36:58Charlie Eccleshare:but we are approaching a4 it's between a5 and a4 i think a4 and a half we're looking at at the moment and it feels like america such a a place for excess could well i mean we know how bureaucratic they're being at the moment with permissions and things like that we could be seeing some world record lanyards yeah that could be absolutely i do enjoy the the prospects of an a3 lanyard that'd be sensational just covers your entire body the pick of this was i just googled us to check it was Marcello Lippi in 2006 I have a very vivid image of him celebrating that Grosso goal and his lanyard flapping all over the place just to check it wasn't a false memory I googled it Marcello Lippi 2006 comes up with loads of pictures of him like holding the World Cup while he's got his lanyard still on and like being hoisted shoulder high by the Italian players while this lanyard is still on.

38:00I mean, surely you'd take it off for that.

38:02Charlie Eccleshare:It's bad for the aesthetic, isn't it, Charlie? The big lanyards. I mean, it would seem to me that they are obliged to wear them all times, even on the touchline and in the technical area. I always try to look really closely at them and say, is there any areas where they're not allowed? Even these sort of head coachers. And I think that must be annoying. Yeah, yeah. Who completes the set? Is it only like the FIFA XGO members who can go anywhere?

38:24Nick Miller:Infantino, that's it.

38:25Charlie Eccleshare:You can imagine Infantino sort of auctioning off his lanyard, all access areas, maybe at the end for like a billion dollars. Slightly excessive reserve price, perhaps, but yeah, it could happen. Someone will pay it. Yeah, they would. But yeah, lanyards, definitely, definitely a thing. Okay, that takes care of our listeners' World Cup fascinations. We'll be back very shortly with your irritations.

38:55Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

39:02Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to the listeners' World Cup mes at Harlan Dix. We've taken care of your fascinations. Now time for your World Cup irritations. First of all comes from Fruel. He says, my irritation is the BBC ordering their fixtures on their website by group before time, which is a mad hierarchy to do things, Nick. He says, I find this quite annoying when looking at the fixtures for each day, that instead of listing them in order of the fixtures that day, the BBC first ordered them by group. Why? I mean, perhaps there's an automation going on here because you see it in their live text, like a Brazilian player scores a goal and you get its full name in the live text.

39:36Charlie Eccleshare:But, you know, for my licence fee, I want things done properly. And it's not usually friendly, but it also kind of throws in that confusion which we will have in this World Cup where you say, well, you know, Haiti are playing Scotland on Saturday night. Yeah. But it's at 2am. so is that so sorry sorry is that saturday or 2 a.m or is that saturday night going into sunday morning 2 a.m so that it just it makes that confusing as well what is the civilized way of saying a game is taking place at 2 a.m how would you phrase it charlie so that the person you're

40:09Nick Miller:speaking to doesn't miss that game i think the early hours of sunday morning right um you know it's it's 2am but it is i mean it's there's a constant source of confusion for people embargo times there's often a you know is it sorry is that 23 59 is that 000 is that 000 when exactly

40:30Charlie Eccleshare:is this nevertheless nick i am consulting a properly chronological list of the fixtures and and the tv schedules and i was stunned to belatedly discover that on the first day of the cup there isn't just one game there's two games really yeah yeah south korea and czech republic are playing at 3 a.m on on day one but of the next day if you see what i mean wow uh that's this is is this unprecedented yeah the first game the first game should be allowed to breathe i'm not i mean i like blanket football charlie but i think the first game should be allowed to breathe in its own right and then we all reflect on it and then we go properly right has this never happened before

41:06Nick Miller:i feel like we've had this at a previous world cup where we felt similar sort of you know This isn't the done thing.

41:13Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe I'm thinking of Euros. I don't know. Could have done my research, but I haven't. While I look at this chronological list of TV games, Nick, I have done a bit of a U-turn in terms of my projected World Cup TV fatigue. I had a feeling that I would, for all sorts of reasons, work, family, just eye strain, that I would check out mentally pretty early doors. But I'm looking at this list. Opening game, going to watch it. South Korea, Czech Republic, probably going to watch it at 3am, maybe. Canada, Bosnia, host country, watching it. USA, Paraguay, yes. Qatar, Switzerland, it's on at 8, yes. Brazil, Morocco, of course I'm watching it.

41:50Charlie Eccleshare:Haiti, Scotland, 100%. Australia, Turkey, yes. For kit colours alone, it's going to be a great spectacle. Germany, Curacao, of course I'm watching that. Netherlands, Japan, 100%. Ivory Coast, Ecuador, yes. Sweden, Tunisia, and I might only miss that because of the time. it's 3am on Monday the 15th. Spain, Cape Verde, yes. Belgium, Egypt, yes. Saudi Arabia, Uguay, yes. Iran, New Zealand, where, at what point am I missing out? And then finally, I get to Austria versus Jordan at 5am on Wednesday the 17th. So that's going to be a good run, I think. It's good that your enthusiasm has powered through the advanced fatigue of facing up to all these games.

42:30Charlie Eccleshare:Charlie, this won't be a measure of you as a man, nor a football fan, but can you imagine a situation where you set your alarm for 5am to get up to what Austria versus Jordan on Wednesday the 17th of June how likely is that

42:42Nick Miller:in your life very unlikely oh okay honestly yeah I can't I just Jordan's World Cup bow even that I think to actually to be getting up for that given you know I'm sort of sleep deprived at

42:55Charlie Eccleshare:the best of times that's that's a big ask save yourself for Portugal versus DR Congo at 6pm and then England versus Croatia. It's less the kind of tiredness or the kind of time it takes. It's the explaining to someone else what you're doing. You know, if I'm setting my alarm for that game, my wife will wake up. She'll say, why are you getting up at 5am? I'll then have to explain why. And it's the shame I don't think I can cope with. It's getting up early to get any sort of football on. And if you time it just for the kickoff and you're just waking up, there is something about that. Your body, the cortisol or something, it responds.

43:38Charlie Eccleshare:Trust me. I suppose you could watch it on your phone and get away with it. I will not disgrace. I will not deface the World Cup by watching it on my phone unless I absolutely had to. But yeah, I will seek the nearest TV. Right, our second listeners' World Cup irritation comes from Daniel Buchanan. My World Cup irritation is when the word finals is used to talk about the tournament as a whole rather than just the final game. For example, people saying Scotland have qualified for the World Cup finals for the first time in 28 years. I feel like it should just be called the World Cup, the final. The word final should only be used for the final.

44:14And I feel that adds unnecessary ambiguity to what people are talking about, particularly for maybe casual football fans. And for some reason I get stressed out that casual football fans might be misunderstanding what's being described. I had an example recently where I was at a PTA school quiz and there was the one football question came up and it was about something about your youngest players at the final playing in finals and I was pretty sure they meant Pele but part of me was like what if the quiz master has just kind of misunderstood and they've got the answer to Norman Whiteside and me being the only football fan on my team I get that question wrong even though I did know it it's just that it wasn't clear um I did actually raise it with the quiz master but that just caused

45:01Charlie Eccleshare:further confusion and delay I mean before we start on anything here Charlie a PTA football quiz

45:08Nick Miller:it's not for me that's not the vibe I'm after that's superb yeah I totally get that that anxiety on behalf of other people who might not quite understand it and yes that little knowledge being a dangerous thing of being like oh what they're technically asking is something slightly different i also can't clarify it because then that looks like i'm sort of semi-cheating but yeah i'm sort of i'm second guessing myself massively here nothing screams big fish in

45:34Charlie Eccleshare:small pond nick than charlie eccleshire being a pta football quiz oh my god you're right about

45:39Nick Miller:football don't you you'll be good at this one i think i would really struggle with that

45:45Charlie Eccleshare:your irritation with people not knowing answers would be through the roof nick on the main topic then um i think we're of a certain age the three of us we're in the ballpark of being in a certain age where i don't think we would have uttered world cup finals sincerely as a phrase in our lifetimes probably not no so is it this is a kind of more of a sort of 70s and 80s thing you think i think i think so that might have been the the sort of decline of it as a concept i'm trying to think charlie how it would survive these days and i think perhaps the main and perhaps only context that we use it now collectively as a as a as an industry is when when a team has qualified for the world cup they're on their way to the world cup finals but the tournament itself doesn't really get referred to as that i think it's in the context of it not being qualifying i think is where

46:36Nick Miller:it comes in isn't it i do remember the first time i saw because euro 96 was the first tournament i really was properly into and i remember that it being used there and having that slight confusion being like what what's the european championship finals yeah in one of the like previews um or it might even have just been like you know this is the first time they've qualified for these finals or something like that and it was like yeah i had to check it i mean yeah would you would you talk about the finals in that way i don't think so i think it's the finals yeah i i would never ever

47:08Charlie Eccleshare:use it i mean i don't know reading too much into it nick maybe to reflect a kind of fatigue with qualifying generally like it's seen as a formality for most nations a pain in the ass for some others and a complete shot in the dark for a lot of others and then when you get to the tournament itself you think well this is the real deal and that delineation doesn't really need to occur anymore the qualifiers are so obviously not part of the tournament no one's really ever thought of them as part of the whole competition and yet if you look back through the history of some of major tournaments they are kind of part of it like the early euros the gray area between what were qualifiers and what were the was the final tournament so you can sort of see why it might It persisted in the 60s and 70s.

47:44It could still have some use to those teams who have no prospect of getting to the final. So you can say, well, Cape Verde reached the World Cup finals without fear of confusion or whatever. It's still not something I think I would consciously use.

48:07Charlie Eccleshare:Would you write it in a piece? I think you would. I think you were. I'm going to say no now. It's safer than the knowledge that I almost certainly have at various points. Where are you flying to, by the way, for the World Cup? Houston. Right. When you get to Houston and you get to the desk, they're going to ask you, politely or otherwise, why you're here. Could you please say, I'm here for the FIFA World Cup finals?

48:35Yes. I mean, US immigration agents are famously receptive to kind of injure some banter. So yeah, I will definitely try that.

48:43Charlie Eccleshare:It'd be like... Play for the greatest show on earth. Oh, you've been through qualifying, have you? Oh, okay. Qualifying's finished, is it? Oh, interesting. Oh, a bit confused. Yeah, thanks. One of the most cliches listener experiences I've ever heard from Daniel Buchanan there. I'm going to end with this, our third and final World Cup irritation for my listeners, and it comes from Richard Hunter. My name's Richard, and I'm a Northern Ireland fan.

49:05Nick Miller:And I'm one of the millions of people who watches the World Cup on the BBC or on ITV, but is not English and does not support the England team. And because of that, I think that updates from the England camp are dreadful. They have always been dreadful. They're dreadful in every tournament, in every game, and I have to sit through them. They don't tell you anything about the England team other than people feeling good or reflecting on a game that's just happened or is about to happen, and they lead to a banal conversation about nothing among the pundits. I don't want to hear about England. I'm not watching the England game.

49:44Nick Miller:I'm watching Argentina, South Korea and Group F. I would like to know more about Argentina and South Korea, but instead, I'm hearing about Morgan Rodgers' hamstring for no reason. I hate it, and I'm stuck with it forever.

50:02Charlie Eccleshare:i'm sorry richard i'm really sorry to hear that mate but we have to confess uh nick it's definitely a thing isn't it uh the england world cup camp update fatigue i feel like complaints about it get earlier and earlier every tournament yeah i think that again this is a there's a slight novelty thing where the first time you see one of those kind of slight quite arty gabriel clark reports from the camp, whether they do that kind of out-focus shot that kind of juggles around a bit and then goes into focus on the play he's talking about. There is a sort of comfort to seeing one of those for the first time.

50:43But then, yes, when you actually have to sit through the interview with Anthony Gordon or whoever it is, then the interest wanes very quickly.

50:53Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, home nation tensions aside, Charlie, and indeed whether updates from the England camp are warranted during a completely separate game from a different group. You know, there's a whole section of the industry dedicated to updates from the England camp. Gabriel Clarke, obviously the king of updates from the England camp. It's both a massively over-engineered part of the World Cup news cycle and yet also entirely vital. Like, people do expect to hear 10 minutes from the England camp on every other broadcast, don't they? We have to have it. It's part of the furniture.

51:30Nick Miller:Yeah, I do find something quite comforting about it, especially the one where England haven't yet played. You know, the tournament might start on the Thursday. They're not playing all the way until the Monday or something. And you're watching a Saturday game. And you are slightly thinking about, oh, what's it going to be like when England play? And they go and, you know, yeah. It's all smiles at training. Everyone's feeling good. They've settled. They're acclimatised. They're just raring to go now. And all of those, it's very football-focussy. it's totally banal it washes over you but it is quite a comfort we do need to get renowned sports

52:04Charlie Eccleshare:psychologist dan abrahams on the podcast at some point nick to talk us through the various moods that are are attainable in england camps um charlie mentioned they're raring to go and that's that's 24 to 48 hours before the first game i would say you're never going to be raring to go for the next two group games are you you're only raring to go for your first game but before that you need to be relaxed right but also quietly confident you need to feel good we're feeling good in the camp um so yeah you don't want to quite quite quietly confident is that is the kind of appropriate like qualifier as well you don't you don't want to sound you don't come across as too arrogant we're loudly confident what comes first charlie is it quiet confidence or steely determination

52:46Nick Miller:because steely determination does suggest there's been some adversity or that something's happened really whereas quiet confidence is so just like generic and you know that that's what you have i think going into a tournament there might be both you know there might be some you know that you might have uh you know in the camp there's a mood of quiet confidence coupled with a steely

53:06Charlie Eccleshare:determination to go one better they do that they dovetail very nicely nick you have to say that's why they're a staple of gabriel clark's sort of monologues they do yes steely determination It's a steely determination to set things right again. Exactly, yeah. There's a 0-0 draw against... England must have had a steely determination to set things right after the 0-0 draw against Algeria in 2010. Okay, so we can chronologically map this out quite nicely, Charlie. You're relaxed, then you're quietly confident, then you're raring to go, then you play. Let's assume a drab opening game. Then the steely determination comes in to set things right.

53:43Charlie Eccleshare:But then if you lose again, you're hurting.

53:45Nick Miller:There's a lot of introspection.

53:46Charlie Eccleshare:Look, we're hurting.

53:47Nick Miller:Yeah, we're hurting more than anyone.

53:49Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah.

53:49Nick Miller:We know they'll be hurting back home, but we're hurting here, you know.

53:53Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, wow. A few knocks, a few bruises. That's the extent of the injury news you get in an England camp update, I'd say. Or maybe, you know, an injured player had some light training today, or didn't take part.

54:05Nick Miller:But they'll be fine come Tuesday.

54:06Charlie Eccleshare:From a cinematography perspective, Nick, what kind of shots do you expect to see in an update from the England camp? You mentioned the soft focus at the start, zooming into the England training camp. What else do you see? Players trotting out onto the training pitch? You want players trotting out. You want inconsequential elements of training, just like a little one-two or something with someone, or when they do that thing where they shoot into those little goals. That's a bit weird. you you will probably get uh either and or a rondo or um one of those kind of the fun exercises usually when they're jumping on someone's they have to jump on each other's backs for some reason

54:48Nick Miller:yeah i was going to say like sharing a joke sort of leaving the end of a session you know trust exercises in conversation and then you get a shot of the manager walking quite there are two shots One is him in action, blowing a whistle, pointing at something. And the other one is him just kind of walking quite slowly with his hands behind his back as assistants do the dirty work of a sprinting drill or something like that.

55:15Charlie Eccleshare:Who is the BBC's Gabriel Clarke? Yeah, I don't know.

55:18Nick Miller:It doesn't feel like that role is as prominent on the BBC. Yeah, I can't think who I'd imagine would be first choice for that.

55:24Charlie Eccleshare:Dan Rohn's going to do the big stories.

55:26Nick Miller:He's not going to do England. No, he wouldn't be doing that. Yeah, exactly.

55:28Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I don't know.

55:30Nick Miller:It's going to be a hell of a lot of fun finding out.

55:34Charlie Eccleshare:Especially for Northern Irishman Richard Hunter. Pleasure to have you. Hope you enjoyed the audio. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshire. Thank you. Thanks to you, Nick. Thank you. And with a quiet confidence and a steely determination, we head into the FIFA 2026 World Cup. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We'll see you next Tuesday for the first adjudication panel of the tournament. See you then.

56:03We'll be right back.