GoPro goalkeepers & textbook crossfield-pass apologies: The listeners' loves & hates

21:55Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I've been equally obsessed by these videos recently, Dave. I mean, personally, about a year ago, I was obsessed with HS Tiki Toki videos. I'm glad I've moved on culturally. Wow, okay. Not in a good way. I was just captivated by the whole concept of it. They're really mundane as well. It's not just wall-to-wall manosphere shit. It's just him going about his day. But anyway, the goalkeeper stuff, for context, to pinpoint the level of football we're talking about here, it's kind of like sort of step five, step six kind of situations where, you know, there are perimeters to the pitch. So it's organised non-league football.

22:27Charlie Eccleshare:And it is really interesting to watch. It is a fascinating camera angle for the goalkeeper experience. And there's what's the crux of why it's so captivating is there's a lot of will he, won't he moments. and there are lots of situations where is he actually going to concede here is he going to pull off a worldie and um that's where the mileage comes from for these videos they're actually really watchable there's a couple i follow a couple of these guys there's this one guy i can't i can't think of the account off the top of my head but he's i think he's like it's basically like decent sunday league level and what it has the effect on me is that it makes goalkeeping look quite fun yeah it does um and like yeah you're right there's a lot of like one-on-ones and you're looking at the positioning and then there's even when they concede it's quite interesting to sort of see their reaction and stuff and see the reaction of the defenders and and how that all goes down I think it is um yeah it's quite it's quite a good strand of footballing content I think the Oppenheimer of this of course Charlie is Ben Foster who was the first to put a GoPro in the back of his goal at the the highest level um so he is responsible for this I mean how compelling do you find it I feel like you're you're not as entertained by the idea as me and Dave.

23:35No, I haven't watched those. I watched a few after seeing this suggestion. It's not something I've really been across before. I mean, I remember the Foster ones and that seemed really cool until they got stopped. I find it funny some of the noises the goalkeeper makes as well. They can be quite sort of vocal. They're sort of constantly sort of, I mean, you know, obviously, as an outfielder that they're often like chattering away at you, but they almost seem to be talking to themselves and quite like heavy breathing. And you kind of think, you're not really moving. Is this as arduous as you're making out or is that like a kind of concentration technique.

24:05Always on alert.

24:06Charlie Eccleshare:Actually, now you mention it, a lot of them make sort of Andy Murray style noises. Do you remember the noise that Andy Murray would make if he got lobbed and he would chase it? And he would go, oh, yeah, yeah. That's such a good shout, yeah. So there's a lot of, oh, shit, I've got to deal with this situation kind of noises. On Ben Foster, obviously, yeah, he is the guy that did this professionally. He was playing in the championship for Watford when he started. So that was the 2021 season where there were still no fans for most of it. It was a bit like, yeah, look, this is a thing that I'm doing to sort of connect with the fans a bit because they're not there.

24:43And there was a lot of vlogs. There was a lot of him talking to the coach driver and him having Breco, as he calls it, at the training ground. But at some point, he did have to stop. And there was a game in particular, I remember, I think it was away at Swansea and we lost. and we were going through a bit of a bad spell and the fans all just, the online fans kind of really got on top of him and was like, what the fuck are you doing? And because he conceded a goal, then he was kind of talking about it chirply on the bus on the way home and it just, you know, the fans weren't having it. But it was quite interesting to see an actual second tier goalkeeper from that perspective.

25:19Yeah, I would love to see an elite goalkeeper doing it. I presume that's why they stopped because it's sort of too compelling content and he didn't have the rights to do it, did he? but it would be great to see it.

25:29Charlie Eccleshare:We should get round to collecting all the Ben Foster abbreviations, shouldn't we, at some point? Because Breco is horrendous. Clino I've quite liked. I've got a couple terms with Clino but Breco sent me over the edge again so I can't have that. From a sort of televisual perspective, Dave, between this and RefCam, which I find very compelling in the Premier League, are there any camera angles left in football? What's left? What possible venture into the kind of on-pitch scenes could we conjure up next? I don't know if there's anything left, is there? Well, we've had the sort of body cam on a player in pre-season, haven't we?

26:02Was it Telemans who did that? Yeah. Friendly? Which was weird. The little arms just sort of running around. I mean, I guess, why can't broadcasters put cameras in the goals for the goalkeeper angle? Yeah. Surely they could do that. You'd think that would be cool. Ball cam? Ball cam. Imagine. Referee's assistant cam? Fourth official cam?

26:24Charlie Eccleshare:Just on the end of the flag, just been waving about. yeah that's a shit ball cam would be fascinating sky have dabbled with sort of in goal cameras i mean i vaguely remember as a it's down the bottom though isn't it no but i remember as a very specific example the 1992 charity shield the thriller between leeds and liverpool which was you know sky's sort of real kind of breakthrough moment and they had a camera in the top corner of the goal looking down it's really sort of intimate camera there and that was that kind of real kind of sky gimmick and it never really caught on for some reason i don't know there must have been a kind of fifa mandate look you can't fuck around with the gold mouth get your cameras out this is sacred we can't have you infiltrating um you know what if a ball bounces off the camera and comes back out um i don't know i was aussie richard keys there come on mate anyway save your australian we've got that coming up anyway great start the second fascination of football comes from jamie One of my fascinations is the enduring nature of someone standing one up in a cross.

27:30Charlie Eccleshare:I think you could be a tippy-tappy Pep Guardiola team. You could be a Sean Dyche-Lumbit-Up team. But as soon as you get in the box, a little lofted cross to the back post with an attacker waiting there heading in will always win. Goalkeepers seem to never be able to deal with it. It always seems to work. Fans seem to enjoy it. There's a moment where it looks like a certain goal every time. Love it. Charlie, I mean, this feels like the sort of safe space where you can ask a question like this. Do you think the stood up cross to the back post is one of the most underrated acts in football? I find it both satisfying and effective.

28:04Charlie Eccleshare:It should be given more flowers, shouldn't it, the stand up to the back post? Yeah, I mean, I think as well Andy Gray really helped popularise it. He went through a phase of talking a lot a bit and it's often with a just, he just stands it up. And you know exactly what it means. though interestingly it's only it only really becomes that he just stands up if it then does lead to a chance because if you do just stand one up and the goalkeeper comes and claims it that's not a standing up yeah so it only we only really hear about the good ones if that makes sense yeah i agree the ones we're imagining are when you just sort of put it up into a good area and someone comes and crashes onto it i mean i think of that in my mind you know that cristiano ronaldo that insane one against roma where he got like ludicrous hang time as it was called at the Was that stood up?

28:47Charlie Eccleshare:Was it? Well, that was Skoll's sort of floats one up, doesn't he, with his left foot? I'm not having that as a stood up. It's not close quarters enough. You want it to basically be stood up just out the six-yard box, and that's the only way to get it up and over the full-back that's in front of you. You kind of just stand it up over to the back post. That was a, oh, I'm not having that as a stood up cross. I need to watch that goal again. It's not miles away. It's a very sort of expansive form of the stood up cross. But yeah, he's floated that. So you're imagining just that it's more hopeful than what Skulls does?

29:20Charlie Eccleshare:They're very rarely targeted, absolutely. Yeah, in an area. Yeah, because it's the only option available to you at that moment, Dave. So, you know, I don't know if you're a fan or not of the stood-up cross, Dave, but where does it stand in the official ranking of great cross subcategories for you? I like it, and I feel like it is something that has been somewhat replaced in the modern game by the cutback. Yeah. In that position, now players like Saka or like maybe Sterling when he was at City, they get there and their instruction and the best thing for them to do is just cut it back into the sort of penalty spot area or six-yard box.

29:58We see a lot of goals like that. Whereas before, yeah, it probably would have been more likely that they would sort of dink it, stand it up to the back post. And I feel like as well, it suits a sort of slow winger, like a slower, sort of trickier, sort of jinky dribbler. Like somebody like Tommy Smith was great for this at Watford, like not particularly quick, didn't like whip it in, but would just like stand his, he would stand his fullback up and then stand the ball up. But like someone like Glenn Little, maybe someone like Matt Jarvis, those sorts of wingers.

30:29Charlie Eccleshare:Glenn Little makes sense because tall wingers, I feel like, are good at standing up crosses because they have to dig the ball out from under their feet. So, yeah, I was going to ask, Charlie, who's the most standing one-up player of all time? Who comes to mind when you're standing up a cross? Yeah, Jarvis is a good shout. Would Stuart Downing have done that? I feel like he's another one in that bracket of, you know, because he didn't really take players on. He was more just quite an accurate crosser. Joe Cole, maybe, when he found himself out wide a bit. Once Mourinho got hold of him. Charlie, you mentioned that it's quite an Andy Gray sort of preoccupation, one thing to admire for a co-commentator.

31:05Charlie Eccleshare:It also feels something that Glenn Hodder would appreciate. He stands it up lovely. He's begging to be nodded home, isn't he? But I think a standing up lovely, that is more of like a Skulls one. That's a kind of deluxe-y stand-up because there's just a little bit more. If you're going to stand it up lovely, then that does suggest there's a bit more purpose and it's into like a perfect area. Whereas I feel like the spirit of just a, and he just stands it up. The way Gray was talking about it, it was almost like it's quite a percentage play. Yeah, definitely. In a way, you know, it's like you're putting it into an area, it's awkward, and you're saying to your front man, can you get on the end of that?

31:45Exactly. And he says yes.

31:47Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, you're absolutely right. The reason why it's such a great cross day is that, yes, it's not targeted. It is hopeful. But it is so inviting. It's one of the most inviting crosses of all because it becomes a 50-50 battle between the onrushing striker, like a big cart horse number nine coming crashing in, and a defender who basically just needs to get a head on it and put it anywhere. Like eyebrows it away if they have to because it's a very eyebrowsy situation for the defender. But the thing is about Hoddle, I was desperately trying to think of the example of a stood-up cross being converted in my head.

32:22Charlie Eccleshare:And I'm so glad it came to fruition. I've just looked it up while we were talking. And it's Gary Lineker scoring the first of his four goals for England against Spain at the Bernabeu in 1987. Glenn Hoddle shoots. His shot is parried wide. And he picks it up with his left foot, stands it up. Gary Lineker, back post, nods it down and in. And it's the ultimate act of standing up. Perhaps not quite crowded enough a box, but it is stood up. John Barnes, maybe a good stander-upper? John Barnes is a good stander-upper. Yeah, he stood one up for... I wouldn't say it was stood up for Lineker in 86, but it was close to being.

32:53Charlie Eccleshare:It was quite... Yeah, because he basically ran to the byline and then dug out a cross at 90 degrees. Didn't curl it. He had to just basically do it at a right angle. And that's where most good stood-up crosses work, I think. But yeah, then you get the odd stood-up cross, Charlie, that turns into a goal. And he's like, did he mean it? So like Bernardo Silva, that was a stood-up cross, essentially. So it can be very effective. Great to see it appreciated by Jamie and exactly the sort of thing that should appear on This Is MHD. The final fascination for our listeners for this month comes from Tamlin.

33:26Charlie Eccleshare:My football fascination is following leagues outside the big European five. I'm from Australia and I love the idea that there must be at least one weird Englishman somewhere doing the inverse of what we do and stays up to ungodly hours to watch the A-League. They know all about the sauce bottle mascots and cannons at Central Coast. They know who the distance Derby is between, Perth and Wellington. They know that the F3 Derby trophy is a bit of concrete from the said named road. and they know our trophy is shaped like a toilet seat and that fans will wear toilet seats around their heads to the final.

33:56Charlie Eccleshare:So yeah, football fans following leagues outside of their own and the uniqueness of the A-League. Love it. Now, I did enjoy that rundown of all the tin pot little details of the A-League, Charlie, but it's just a great opportunity. I've never really considered this before, but where does the Australian A-League sit in the football landscape, culturally, footballistically? Because no one talks about it, I don't think. There's probably some really good reasons for that. It's really mundane, good reasons for that. But do you ever think about the A-League ever? No, I mean, when Ange became Spurs manager, I had to engage with it.

34:29I had to engage with it. Well, I mean, because he managed there and to really impressive effect. So I was talking to quite a lot of people who had played under him there or had sort of watched his teams and was kind of familiarising myself. I mean, that's the thing, because he had this amazing Brisbane Raw team who played this incredible football. And obviously at the time, I mean, this is probably, I think it was like 2011, 12, that kind of time obviously that didn't make a dent on sort of my consciousness and i don't think the wider footballing consciousness in europe which kind of tells you how and he talked about that as well that you know people just don't aren't really aware of the a-league or you know football in australia yeah i don't know because obviously mls there's quite a lot of discourse around they're quite similar i would say china had a moment saudi obviously is having a moment has the A-League ever really had that moment?

35:17No, it hasn't. And I think the comparison to MLS is the right one. Because the A-League, whilst maybe, I don't know, standard-wise MLS is probably better, I would guess. Oh, yeah, it would be. But the A-League lacks the sort of perceived glamour and razzmatazz of MLS, of just US sports and the big cities. Australia is good at doing sport, though, right? Exactly. But the similarity is that it's in a country where football, soccer is nowhere near the biggest sport. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's cricket and rugby, Aussie rules and that sort of thing. So it's down the pecking order, but without any of the sort of glamour.

35:58And it's just, but that's the thing. If you think about it from the prospect of a player who wanted to go there, because it's got similar sort of retirement vibes of like one last club. But really half-hearted retirement vibes as well. Is it probably more? Because MLS is like really boom or bust. You could get a really nice club. You could go into Miami or you could be in LA, but also you could be in Colorado or somewhere in the Midwest. Whereas Australia, pound for pound, probably Columbus or something. But in Australia, it's probably quite a desirable lifestyle, isn't it? I imagine. Yeah, they're all based in pretty nice places.

36:35Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I would say. But I think the MLS comparison is interesting, Charlie, because unlike most other leagues of this kind of level, the teams are curious and you're interested in the individuals who go and play there sometimes, but no one ever really talks about the narratives that's happening in the season. It's like, who's going to win it this season? That never bleeds into the mainstream consciousness. I mean, I'm displaying my ignorance about the Australian A-League here, but this is the point of the conversation. You see clips of it, sort of funny goals every now and then. TNT cover it for some reason.

37:06Charlie Eccleshare:but I don't know what it would take for the A-League to become a talked about league in its full football kind of virtue. Yeah, I mean also the time zone obviously doesn't help. It's always going to be a really inconvenient time zone for Europe. I mean realistically the sad truth is it would need like a huge injection of cash and a load of players going out there. I mean that's how generally leagues that haven't traditionally been particularly major, that's how they get attention. Certainly Saudi being the most recent example. I mean, didn't Fowler go there and Heskey? Yeah. So I sort of vaguely remember that.

37:39But again, being kind of curious about it, but no more than that.

37:43Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe they just need a World Cup, Dave. I mean, that's a fair point, isn't it? I mean, Australia probably overdue a World Cup. I mean, they do it really well. They had the Women's World Cup, didn't they, in 2023. They've certainly bid a few times, haven't they? And yeah, I mean, I think, I guess, yeah, it's the time zone thing that always holds, you know, the time zone for European or Western audiences is the thing that always holds them back. but like a sporting nation with good facilities and yeah you know it would be good i'm sure it would be really good gorgeous olympic games in 2000 of course yeah but for a sporting nation and someone who you know a nation that really does take sport seriously and is great at a lot of things i'm sort of a bit disappointed and i think takes the shine off it a little bit is that they still have the silly americanized names for their teams yeah you know perth glory newcastle jets It's Brisbane Raw.

38:30Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, there's been a sort of mid-2010s resurgence into bringing back sort of retro-engineering team names. So MLS have gone this sort of way, sort of Rail Club X and something United, just to give that sort of layer of authenticity that might not otherwise have existed. But Opta, Charlie, have a ranking of leagues across the world to give an idea of their strength. And I'm delighted to say that I can tell you where the Australian A-League Men's League is sandwiched between. and it's the Costa Rica Primera División Apertura and the Guatemala Liga Nacional Apertura. I don't know where the class is.

39:03Charlie Eccleshare:Are the classierers better or worse? I don't know. Yeah, that is weird. That's lower than I thought it would be. The only brief moment they may have had, the Melbourne City, they got acquired by CFG. That's right, yeah. That was maybe talked about. But it's the 60th strongest league in the world, 60th strongest men's top flight in the world, Dave, which it's going to put it well out of people's radars. And to return to the essentially the crux of Tamlin's sort of fascination here is that can you imagine can you imagine meeting someone English or European? I'm really into the A-League actually like I'm like an A-League expert.

39:38Charlie Eccleshare:I write about it for I don't know, Favre or something. I think the most damning thing I could say Charlie about the A-League from our perspective is that it falls somewhat short of the threshold for us to do say a pure A-League 11. I don't know where we would start. It would be Adam LaFondra up front, who's the 11th highest goal scorer in A-League history, by the way. So what an accolade that is. There's no vibe there, is there? No, I don't think so. It's not as defined as MLS or something like that. The other question is, have you ever met an Aussie that likes the A-League? I haven't. I meet a fair few Aussies in London or whatever, but the A-League is rarely top of the conversation when it comes to sports.

40:16Charlie Eccleshare:This is a potential Libero episode coming. Who is the A-League for exactly? Who's appearing on that one? But yeah, just a little snapshot of the foreigners to play in the A-League. Rudy Gestead has played there. Mario Jardel, 11 games, zero goals. And this was four years after he was at Bolton. So you can imagine what kind of state he was in. Romario was there at sort of the tail end of his world tour of clubs to try and get to 1 ,000 goals. And the most damning thing you can say about that, Dave, is that there's a YouTube video entitled Romario Adelaide, skills and goal. Singular, yeah. Yeah, just the one.

40:50Charlie Eccleshare:Kenny Cunningham played there. Not the Irish one, the Costa Rican one. The most Aussie-sounding human being I've ever seen, which is the Croatian Matej Dragicevic. Mate! Mate Dragicevic. Oh, this is pathetic of us. William Gallas, I don't remember this at all. Perth Glory, 2013-14. No recollection of that. That opens up another thing. Just hold the kind of retirement league chat about pretty much any kind of destination. across the globe, Charlie. It's not as fun for defenders, is it? Because you've still got to do the defending. You've got to do the running. Whereas for strikers, it's just a piece of piss.

41:27Charlie Eccleshare:Like it's a cakewalk. Whereas defenders, you don't get that retirement league vibe. You basically still have to do your job, which must be quite annoying. Yeah, although there must be some. If you're playing for a good team and you're still decent, you must just be chilling at the back. Yeah, you can Van Dijk your way through it, I imagine. Yeah, exactly. Like playing with kids. But yeah, great to have the chance to talk about the A-League on the Football Clichés podcast. Thank you, Tamlin. We'll take a short break and we'll be back with your irritations.

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43:26Charlie Eccleshare:welcome back to football cliches and the listeners mesut harlan dicks for march we've covered your fascinations now it's time for your irritations the first of which comes from johnny singer my footballing irritation is to do with replays of penalties when a normal goal is scored we're pretty used to the standard array of replays first one repeat of what just happened then we get reverse angle maybe a wide view if it's a counter-attack, slow-mo of the finish, and then maybe the camera and the goal in the end, especially if the balls hit it. Four, five replays, pretty much standard, and that's great.

43:55It's what we used to do. It's what we need. Not for penalties. Let's assume there's a penalty and it's scored. There is so little I need out of that. I need at most two replays, probably one. All I need to know is did it go in, was it a Penenka, and did the keeper get near it? I got all of that from watching it the first time. At most, I need a second look. I don't need a reverse angle. I don't need a slow-mo. I don't need five replays. Show me more celebration. Show me a replay of the instant leading to the penalty award. Don't show me Cole Palmer rolling the ball into the net with the keeper having dived the wrong way five times from five different angles.

44:29It's boring, it's lazy, and it's unnecessary.

44:31Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, there's a perfect level of indignance to this entry, but there's also a moment there which says, there's so little I get out of that, which was very Charlie Eccleshire to me. Really, very uncanny. I have actually worked previously with Johnny, so... Oh, really? Maybe there is a shared voice element. Oh, yeah. Okay, that's very interesting. This is like when you told us your brother was the script writer for an episode we were talking about. How these things happen. Dave, how on board are you with this? Yeah, I think it makes sense, really. You don't need to see that many angles of a penalty.

45:03But I guess it's just, is it just the sort of standard procedure? Regardless of how a goal is scored, there will always be X number of replays?

45:12Charlie Eccleshare:It remains a low-scoring sport, relatively speaking, Charlie. You don't want to waste the opportunity as a broadcaster to revel in a goal being scored. A ball has hit the back of the net and there's a 75 % chance, roughly, of it happening in that scenario. You don't want to take it for granted too much. But I kind of agree with the replay threshold that Johnny Singer has applied here. Yeah, I mean, volume of replays is a thing. It can be really annoying. and not even just in the moment, but in, I remember like on an old, I think it was like an all the goals of World Cup 98. It was that kind of thing.

45:45And there were just so many replays for every goal. And it was like, this is borderline unwatchable. We don't need to see this many replays of every goal. Just like move on. We get it. It doesn't matter. And yeah, I can understand with penalties because they are less, yeah, they're kind of less spectacular to watch.

46:00Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, Dave, you're right that the broadcasters basically, they have a minimum obligation for when a goal is scored, when it comes to how much they're going to cover it. But by extension, when you get to half-time and a penalty is perhaps the only goal of the game so far, they will cover it at half-time. They'll cover the incident itself, the awarding of the penalty. They'll discuss whether it was indeed a penalty. But then the penalty itself will have to be shown at that situation because you could not show it. And then whoever's in the punditry studio will say, yeah, but look, take nothing away from it.

46:28Charlie Eccleshare:He's dispatched it very confidently. So that's the analysis of the penalty. I wouldn't want any more analysis from a penalty. It depends really. It does depend on what type of penalty we're seeing. If it's one of those where they're not looking at the ball, they're only looking at the keeper. There are obviously little nuances and details that you can pick out. If there's a goalkeeper on the panel, they might have a bit more of an opinion on the goalkeeper and the movements and what they do. But you're fairly limited, aren't you? I mean, this is just genuinely great fussiness from Johnny Singer, to be honest.

46:59Charlie Eccleshare:But I don't know. I'm just not sure it's something that would ever pop up in my head while I'm watching a game, Charlie. That's too many replays. of that penalty. Let's take Harry Maguire's penalty for England against Italy in the Euros final. If that happened in a regular... It feels like a penalty that wouldn't happen in 90 minutes, actually. That had a camera in the goal, didn't it? Yeah, it did. Good point. I'd want a few replays of that, Charlie. A properly emphatic top corner effort I'm all right with. But maybe, yeah, it could be taken on its individual merits. That Voltemada one we talked about earlier in the season, that absolutely insane top corner.

47:29Yeah, happily watched that a number of times.

47:31Charlie Eccleshare:What specific type of penalty would you least like to see several replays of i think it would be instep to the other side so curled with the instep waist height and the keeper gets a palm to it but not enough to even make it remotely interesting and it goes in the side netting and you can't even blame the keeper that much they got a hand to it i don't think i want to see that again to be honest i guess like ones that are just so repetitive you've seen so many times like a cane just sort of like whipping it into that corner but it's a satisfying technique to look at i guess maybe but it's like i don't need i've already seen it a million times I feel like in my life I don't need to see it like an additional number of times on top of the fact that he's just done it again oh this is classic listeners mhd right the second irritation from our listeners comes from Richard Irvin my footballing irritation is when a player fails to pick out his teammates run and then raises a hand to say sorry about that but the teammate doesn't turn around to acknowledge just leaving them hanging it's just really really disappointing for some reason cliches down under today it really is i went to new zealand this time it's just um i can see how this might be something you might be on the edge of your seat sort of relatively speaking dave during a live broadcasting is the recipient or intended recipient of that long pass going to acknowledge in close-up is he going to turn around and do the kind of clapping above their head.

48:58Charlie Eccleshare:You want the circle to be completed in this scenario. You want the transaction, don't you? Yeah, it should be. It's almost part of the footballer's code. You have to do it. Yeah, and it doesn't matter the distance. We could be talking 70, 80 yards, Charlie. The communication can still take place. It's pure semaphore, isn't it? Yeah, if it didn't happen as well, I think you'd be wary of suggesting infighting or kind of trouble in the camp to the viewer. Oh, he's fucking done it again. and he's pinged it long again. Exactly. Just be more accurate. It's the sort of thing, Charlie, that your sort of imagined ex-pro would talk about a story where, here's a scenario, see if you can do it.

49:39So the story is a young player who finds himself in the first team didn't applaud a long pass and the captain pulled him aside in the dressing room afterwards. And he just says to me, he says, son, you do that again, you ain't playing. I didn't even know what I'd done. But it was that sort of leadership, you know, that commitment to the small details. And I'll tell you what, I never didn't acknowledge an apology after that again.

50:04Charlie Eccleshare:It sailed over my head and I had no idea. I had no idea. I didn't know that was what you had to do. But yeah, it turns out it was. I mean, from what I know of our respective Sunday League careers, Dave, I think we fit into two camps here between the three of us. me and you are the pingers, long ball pingers. And Charlie is an intended recipient, sort of a willing runner on the right. And I love a ping, always have done. I love a diagonal ping. And I don't mind it when they fall short or go too long because I get to do the transaction because it's always received well in Sunday League. You get to do the hand up, sorry, mate, because they know that at Sunday League level, they're going to appreciate the intent.

50:50Yeah, you might even get like a nice idea. A nice idea, Adam Horry. Don't mind it. Don't mind it.

50:56Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, next time, next time, next one, next one. But I relish, I relish the opportunity to apologise, Dave. You must feel this. Yeah, I'm not much of a pinger myself. Oh, really? Generally speaking, like my footballing technique is like... Tiki-taka, right? I'm one of those players that's much more comfortable using the inside of my foot. So, you know, like playing centre-back, kind of... Sweep it out. sweep it out to the winger or the fallback or maybe into the channel not much of a pinger but i do definitely have done performative apologies before and like stick with it as well sometimes like if they haven't seen like really like really make the make the point of like but you know charlie you know you're on the other end of this transaction and you know the mechanical issue that often arises here is that the intended recipient has their back turned at the very moment that the deliverer of the past wants to issue the apology and there's there's only so long that you've got to do this you cut this transaction can't just have a two minute window to do it after a while you're not you're not going to complete it you'll be like that past two minutes go sorry mate you're not going to readdress it at half time exactly so it's your fault for turning around it looks a bit needy if you start like calling out the person by name like charlie charlie no i just want to say i'm really sorry about that this is it it has to be done by body language um yeah from the deliverer's perspective you cannot shout to the intended recipient charlie charlie sorry mate but the intended recipient charlie can verbally respond right they they can instigate it by saying adam adam nice one unlucky nice idea adam yeah yeah i think so i do and i do think as well with this you you you are so much more likely to get the acknowledgement of the apology because by its nature it's not that easy a pass like if someone's doing this to you like a really simple pass and they pass it off for a throw your instinctive reaction is going to be like like can you not do that even if then you have to pretend to be like yep yep no worries whereas with this yeah whereas with this just take a touch next time yeah exactly just maybe don't do that next time with this you're less likely to even instinctively be annoyed at the misplacing of the pass it's a thing that um i actually noticed that on a couple of times where i've been on pitch with ex-pros It's a really nice way for them to be sort of encouraging and positive to the other players, like who are invariably mishitting passes.

53:11I remember playing in a game with Luther Blissett, of all people, once. And I like put a cross in or something and it was no good, you know, over hit or under hit or whatever. But he was really, he was like, good idea, mate. That's the right idea. Well done, son. Keep trying. And it really does give you a little lift, doesn't it?

53:27Charlie Eccleshare:And obviously, if you're playing in a game with an ex-pro, you're going to want to ping it to them because that's a badge of honor. absolutely right i've got the visceral mental memories of all the kind of incompleted long ball apology transactions that i've experienced in my life because they were just turned around it's gutting me actually right now uh doesn't happen if i've decided you don't have to worry about it just bounces back off the wall right love that final irritation from our listeners comes from joe pegram my contribution to mesut harland dicks is that feeling which i'm sure there's a big long German compound word for that you get where you the rank amateur watching on TV notice something that they the multi-million pound coaching staff of Premier League football teams have not spotted namely the I'll give you an example the ball gets played down the let's say the left channel the centre-back is dealing with it but he's pursued under pressure by the winger on that side now nine times out of ten what he'll do is play a relatively blind pass with his left foot square to his goalkeeper why is the number nine not pressing come on this is the age of pressing why is he not pressing the keeper putting him under pressure just allowing them to get out of of jail that's well I wondered whether this was going to be an irritation or a fascination but as I'm talking about it I can tell you for certain it's an irritation why are they not doing it Dave, there are two prongs to this.

55:00Charlie Eccleshare:Obviously, the first one to address is the arrogance of watching amateurs to think that they've found a way that elite football isn't covering itself. That's been in most of us at various points in our lives, and you get over it at a certain age. But secondly, this is such a good example of this phenomenon. I am convinced, slightly convinced, that there is an oversight here at the elite level. and the scenario that Joe paints here is exactly right, that it's the blind pass. What would stop a number nine just anticipating this and cutting it out? There are certain situations where it's just too much ground to cover, but if the angle is such that it's tight enough for the number nine to make up that ground, and they would make that decision when the ball's bouncing through, I'm convinced it would pay dividends.

55:46I'm absolutely convinced. I know what you mean because there are definitely moments I've had when I've been watching games and think, why didn't you just do that? like that look when it's something you think just looks so obvious but I think it's just it's probably always with the benefit of hindsight and I think the thing that might scupper this is us not really appreciating the spatial awareness that players have probably and that if that forward centre forward did make the run that you're saying to anticipate it they would just know that they're

56:12Charlie Eccleshare:there and they wouldn't then pass it to them I've got an answer for that because Charlie that's part of the point of doing it yeah you might not capitalize on the pass itself but you've made the defender do something different the the second thing that they wanted to do is that not worth it too yeah sorry to get all come with the hour about this but i think forwards do do what you're describing i mean like some some some premier league center forwards are so good at their and it's not even just pressing it's kind of their off the ball work someone like gabriel jesus who basically is a pressing forward what he does is is another there are plenty of others like him they are constantly trying to like close off passing lanes and forcing defenders into awkward passes but then what's also really impressive is someone like Van Dijk who if you imagine he's in this situation so he will have a defender who's trying to you know he's putting him under pressure and hoping he'll just sort of like lump it out but then you'll get someone then you'll get the striker who recognizes that right what he wants to do is go back to the keeper he closes off that passing lane but then they'll have a central midfielder who's good enough to be like okay shit he needs me he drops in and someone like Van Dijk will play this sort of like disguised inside pass so which screws the forward who's gone to try and intercept the pass to the keeper or just stop him playing to the keeper and then they're out and you're like god this is this is so sophisticated so i think there probably was a time where forwards weren't doing that but i think they are now you know with the help of their analysts and what have you they they are onto this sort of thing the little disguised inside pass to a central midfielder dave is is the potential scenario that might undo that might unravel Joe's scenario here but for now I'm on board with it I'm convinced that number nines need to and because it's not about pressing it's not about effort it's about anticipation because this is a very this particular kind of pass is so telegraphed it's like 10 seconds in the making as soon as that ball bounces through there's only one place they can go unless they unless they haven't got enough of an ego and they're just happy to boot it out which could happen at like national league level but this number nine has so much time to realise that this passes on to make up the ground.

58:13Charlie Eccleshare:I'm convinced it's a thing, but I want and frankly expect like a UEFA B licence coach listening now to tweet us about this tomorrow and explain very politely why this wouldn't pay off. And it may well be Charlie's explanation. There's a scenario that I often, which is similar, that I often get annoyed about. And it's, this is just like a long ball down the middle and a defender and a striker, you know, might go up for an aerial duel, but let's say that the striker sort of pulls out and then defender just either maybe heads it back or just lets it go through to the keeper. And I always just think, why don't you just gamble more?

58:48Just like start running through to the keeper just in case it comes off and then you'll get the ball.

58:52Charlie Eccleshare:Spot on. It's basically the same principle. Guess what's going to happen. And you won't have egg on your face if the defender sort of chests it down and drags it away. Yes, you probably conceded, you basically triggered a counter-attack of sorts, but it's worth the gamble, right? Assume that they're going to nod it back to the keeper. The payoff will be so great compared to not chasing them back in the other direction. It was doable. But that does sometimes happen though. And the defenders again are so good because the player will gamble on the header back to the goalkeeper and they'll somehow kind of angle their heads and disguise a header away.

59:25And I do actually think that is one of the biggest separators as you go up through the levels. Like, you know, when we play at amateur level, you put in like a sort of testing long ball and defenders are all at sea and they're just kind of they'll get anything on it and then you go up and they are they're not they are sort of finding a fullback or something with like a cushioned header and you're like jesus how have you got the ability and composure to do that yeah i realized

59:49Charlie Eccleshare:there's that there is a healthy element of delusion here and i was really careful in my sort of response here not to transpose sunday league to premier league level which is the biggest mistake to make but um and i will also say dave that there are moments where i get incredibly carried away with what I'm seeing in front of me at Premier League level. About three seasons ago, two, three seasons ago, I remember thinking as I watched Deserby's Brighton pass through the lines, I thought, that's it. They've hacked football. I've never seen anything like this. This is it. Football's changed forever.

1:00:18Charlie Eccleshare:And then, no, he's fucked it up at Marseille and Brighton at mid-table. So I don't know. I don't want to get too carried away. But there's a part of my brain that thinks that this needs to be... You know, Liam Resignia is going to pick up on this. he'll get de Lapp getting 20 goals a season before long picking up on back passes so you never know I'm glad we got all that off our chest thanks Joe Pegram that wraps up the listeners Mesut Haaland Dix for March really enjoyed your selections thanks to you David Walker thank you thanks to you Charlie Eccleshare thank you thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on Tuesday see you then

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