In short
This Football Clichés episode is an “adjudication panel” discussion of football language, plus a few match-based examples. Key topics include: Calci prediction-market trading (sponsor), the return/meaning of “late doors” in commentary (and whether it should replace “early doors”), “dominance” in matches (debating whether a dominant team must restrict chances), John McGinn’s “trademark finish” (a composed curled/flicked touch), and “accidental commentary” moments where pundits slip into chants/rhythms.
Notable examples
Aston Villa’s 3-2 Champions League win over Club Bruges (McGinn scoring); Chelsea vs Arsenal dominance debate referencing XG vs eye-test; Lincoln vs Southampton where commentary accidentally matches “You’re getting sacked in the morning”; and Everton vs Man United commentary using “late doors.”
Guests
none. The panel is Adam Hurry with Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker; they also reference other creators (Dean Saunders, Keys and Grey, Leon Osman, Mark Scott, Gary Cotterill, etc.) but they are not interviewed.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOFootball Clichés Introduction
1:24 to 2:34
Hosts introduce the episode and discuss the upcoming live quiz.
“You can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.”
Football Clichés Introduction
2:38 to 4:00
Hosts introduce the episode and discuss the upcoming live quiz.
“Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés.”
Dean Saunders and Modern Terminology
4:00 to 5:48
Discussion on Dean Saunders and the evolving language of football.
“Charlie, you could probably walk to this one, couldn't you?”
Debate on Analysts and XG
5:48 to 7:35
Exploration of the roles of analysts and the concept of Expected Goals (XG).
“I think they're coming up with different angles like stats and XG and just to make it sound a bit more and keeping it going forward.”
Ballon d'Or and Yashin Trophy Controversies
7:35 to 9:44
Discussion on the Yashin Trophy nominations and the Ballon d'Or's credibility.
“It should be a really calm kind of explanation of what XG is flying completely in the face of what D-Sword has sort of absentmindedly described it as.”
TalkSport Debate: Dominance in Football
9:44 to 11:52
Analysis of dominance in football through a TalkSport debate.
“And Jeff Stelling versus Laura Kirk-Francis.”
John McGinn's Trademark Finish
11:52 to 14:03
Examination of John McGinn's iconic goal-scoring technique and its implications.
“you've still dominated them across the 90 minutes but they have you know the balance of probability suggests that in a football match, they're going to always have one or two moments.”
Mastering Finishing Techniques in Football
14:03 to 15:38
Learn about the importance of composure and accuracy in football finishing.
“And it's like trying to curl the ball into the opposite far corner.”
Aston Villa's Season and Its Narrative
15:39 to 17:04
Explore Aston Villa's early season struggles and how they breathed new life into their campaign.
“I remember in the Europa League tie against Forest, he basically did one of each.”
The Rise of 'Late Doors' in Football Commentary
17:05 to 19:15
Discuss the growing use of 'late doors' in football commentary and its cultural implications.
“I mean, it's really creeping into the lexicon now.”
Show all 22 chapters
Monty Don's Departure and BBC's Future
19:16 to 20:23
Reflect on Monty Don's exit from the BBC and the implications for future programming.
“Moving on, cracked badge at the beleaguered BBC.”
Deconstructing 'Flattering to Deceive'
20:24 to 21:59
Examine the phrase 'flattering to deceive' in football and its implications for performance.
“there was no end product from Savio at all, was there?”
Terminology in Football Commentary
22:00 to 23:15
Delve into the nuances and preferences regarding football commentary terms.
“It isn't flattering to deceive territory.”
Terminology in Football Commentary
23:16 to 24:40
Delve into the nuances and preferences regarding football commentary terms.
“The little pause before he says it is so good.”
Terminology in Football Commentary
24:56 to 26:33
Delve into the nuances and preferences regarding football commentary terms.
“If your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odoo.”
Upcoming Content and Listener Engagement
27:28 to 28:00
Get details on upcoming episodes and ways to engage with the podcast.
“This is where we're going to try and go through 10 levels of Premier League goalscorer guessing.”
West Ham's Historical Goal Scorers
28:00 to 29:19
Discussion on notable goal scorers for West Ham and their performances.
“Burnley nil, Manchester City three, goal scorers, Rodri, and at the double, Erling Haaland.”
Dominic Calvert-Lewin's Scoring Style
29:20 to 30:29
Analysis of Dominic Calvert-Lewin's approach to scoring and its effectiveness.
“We've tumbled off the ladder on level two.”
The Phrase 'Makes No Mistake'
30:30 to 33:36
Exploration of the use and timing of the phrase 'makes no mistake' in football commentary.
“If I think of a Calvert-Lewin goal, it's that rather than any sort of finish, let alone a rounding the keeper.”
Accidental Commentary Rhythms
33:37 to 35:18
Discussion of a commentator unintentionally syncing with a popular chant.
“How about when you, like Harry Kane did against Croatia in the World Cup, you have a penalty, you get saved, and then you have to retake the penalty and you score that.”
Harry Kane and Medical Research
35:19 to 42:00
A humorous take on Harry Kane's involvement in groundbreaking medical research.
“Mammalian genes can combine to make previously unknown mRNAs, proteins.”
Commentary Insights and Humor
42:00 to 47:10
Explore the humorous commentary styles of Keys and Gray, and their evolving dynamics.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Before the season even kicks off, soccer fans are already making predictions. Who wins the league? Who qualifies for Europe? And who's lifting the trophy at season's end? On Calci, America's number one prediction market platform, you're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the Calci app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I, Calci. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors.
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1:09Otherwise, you just don't know the game. So drink it ice cold. Or don't drink it at all. Jägermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jägermeister liqueur, 35 % alcohol by volume. Imported by Mass Jägermeister US, White Plains, New York. I'm sorry. You can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like. Is Gascoigne going to have a crack? He is, you know. Oh, I say! Brilliant! For G! He's run the goalkeeper, he's done it! Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip.
1:54Oh, I say! It's amazing! He does it time and time and time again. Break up the music.
2:02Charlie Eccleshare:Charge a glass. This nation is going to dance all night. The return of the cliché's quiz live. Dean Saunders again on the modern terminology of football. Tin-pot Ballon d 'Or behaviour. The dominance threshold. John McGinn's trademark back where it came from caress. The antonym of early doors breaks new ground. Unacceptably casual words for headers. the least rounding the goalkeeper striker in the Premier League, commentary to the accidental rhythm of football chants, Gary Cottrell's tridekaphobia, and Keyes' top six commentators. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts, this is Football Clichés.
2:43Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry and this is the midweek adjudication panel. Joining me, first of all, Charlie Eccleshare. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Alongside you, David Walker. How are things? Things are good. Excellent. Big news, Football Clichés Quiz Live returns. After two sold-out quizzes in Leeds and Newcastle in 2025, we're live in London at Big Penny Social in Walthamstow on the evening of Thursday, November the 26th. Great fun, a massive screen for us to quiz on. Prizes to be won. I'm really excited about this. Dreamland subscribers, you will soon receive an email with the details for claiming your free ticket.
3:23Charlie Eccleshare:There is a limited number of those, so get in quick. You can either claim a single free ticket for yourself, or you have the option for buying a table with your free ticket included in that. You have until next Wednesday, then the tickets go on general sale. It seems ages since we've done the quiz, Dave, but what a night they are. I mean, Leeds and Newcastle were rip-roaring. Yeah, I think, you know, similar vibe and energy to our, you know, more standard live shows like we did at the weekend, but with a great quiz chucked in the middle of it, really. You'll have a good time. You'll get all the cliche stuff that you've come to love and expect.
3:56But they will go quick. Like the Leeds and Newcastle quizzes, even though they were smaller venues, they did sell out in about an hour. So this will probably go pretty quick. It's a big venue. It's a good venue. Charlie, you could probably walk to this one, couldn't you? It's on his doorstep. It is a gorgeous venue. Yeah. It's sort of, yeah, my home turf.
4:15Charlie Eccleshare:For the audience of any doubt, the quiz will be a little more lenient than the usual cliches quiz on the pod it is designed to be relatively fun to play for all comers but it will be good pure cliches knowledge so you can sign up dreamland members and it'll go on general sale next week details will be in your inbox right adjudication panel time do you know what it's been too long not not just since the last football cliches quiz live but it's been too long since i've heard dean saunders on the modern terminology of elite football. He was a guest on episode three of Graham's Soonest Tackles, which is, Charlie, I'm reading out the bio here, a bold new show delivering Soonest's trademark honesty, sharp analysis, and uncompromising football insight through unfiltered stories, hard-hitting debates, and candid conversations with the game's biggest names.
5:05Charlie Eccleshare:That ticks all the boxes for a new ex-pro podcast in 2026. Sharp analysis, the unfiltered element, the uncompromising. Definitely unfiltered. And the game's biggest names. Yeah, often it's like tackling the game's biggest stories, isn't it? Which this isn't going to do. This is just unfiltered stories, but not the biggest ones. So unfiltered small stories. Yeah, exactly. A debate can't be anything other than hard-hitting, can it? No, you don't want a soft debate, because that would be boring. You know, an intriguing debate, an open-minded debate. That's the best kind of debate, isn't it, really?
5:40Why do we all have to be so fucking hard-hitting?
5:42Charlie Eccleshare:Well, this debate is both hard-hitting, intriguing, but I would say not open-minded. Here's Dean Zonders. I think they're coming up with different angles like stats and XG and just to make it sound a bit more and keeping it going forward. And we get the hump then saying, well, XG, what's that mean? The game is filled now with absolute bluffers coming up. The new terminology, the new things, pressing, used to be called closing down. Oh, it's just immaculate. I haven't had a wassat then for my life for so long, Charlie. You could feel, I said it before it happened, like you could feel the rhythm.
6:22What's that mean? It's so good. Because Souness sort of does one of his lines for him, doesn't he? Yeah. We used to call that. Yeah, great to see pressing.
6:29Charlie Eccleshare:We used to call that closing down, Dave. That cements it as the number one go-to in this situation. But I'm amazed that Saunders has got the energy for this still. But I guess, you know, easy money. Well, yeah. The thing is, there are times when sometimes I sort of agree with some of this stuff. You know, I think there are probably lots of bluffers, so-called bluffers in football. Oh, I reckon so, yeah. No question. What I would like them to do, get someone on. Yeah, no, I was thinking that. Have a chat about it all and find some common ground. That would actually be quite interesting. Like, Graham Soonest talks to kind of woke football people.
7:06Like, get an analyst on. You know, something like that. I would be quite curious to hear like an analyst defending themselves. I mean, presumably that's who, when he says bluffers, because that's who's always in Saunders' crosshairs, isn't it? These sort of laptop merchants at clubs. So presumably he's talking about analysts and people like that. And Souness, I guess that's kind of who he means as well. That would be like vaguely interesting rather than having Souness and Saunders who you're probably going to agree on most of this stuff.
7:32Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I don't think we've had enough of that, but I can see how it would pan out. It should be a really calm kind of explanation of what XG is flying completely in the face of what D-Sword has sort of absentmindedly described it as. But yeah, I wonder if he can roll this out one more time. Where can he go with this roadshow of anti-XG sentiment? Well, if only there was a podcast willing to entertain such notions. Yeah, a language of football podcast, perhaps. Dean, you don't know where we are, but yeah, anyway. I was referring to Keys and Grey Unleashed. Oh, sorry. I was about to say, I think Dave means more of a place where he could be unleashed, finally.
8:07Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, maybe. I'll tell you where the game has gone, though, Charlie. Among the online furore about the Ballon d 'Or shortlist of 30 names, the nominations for the 2026 Yashin Trophy, the best goalkeeper in the world, have been unveiled. Among them, Vozinha, the Cape Verde hero. How do you feel about him being on the shortlist? I think it's, I'm not going to say disgrace, but what is going on? Yeah, that does feel a bit sort of playing to the gallery. It's hard to believe that, you know, the bluffers of this world, the analysts and people like that would go along with that. I'm not sure what the data left to say about it.
8:51Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, to be fair, data was at the very heart of Vazinha's story, Dave. He made a lot of saves in one game. So, I mean, the data backs it up. But surely your body of work needs to be greater than a couple of games at a World Cup, doesn't it? What if the striker for Cape Verde had got the golden boot in the World Cup? Would they have been nominated for the Ballon d 'Or overall? I think that's absurd, but yes, they definitely would have done. But in the same strand of logic as this, I think, yeah. But that's very different from what Vazenia did, surely. I mean, he didn't do the equivalent.
9:23You know, Unai Simon won the equivalent of the golden boot, didn't he? Vazenia didn't.
9:28Charlie Eccleshare:He's got 50 million Instagram followers, Charlie. I mean, we should account for that, really. But the Ballon d 'Or is not about capturing hearts, is it? It's about dominating in your chosen field. So I'm disappointed. But yeah, the Ballon d 'Or is capitulating, quite frankly. Over to Talk Sport next. And Jeff Stelling versus Laura Kirk-Francis. So dominant. That is what the Sport Depth is for. You were not dominant. You really were not dominant. We absolutely were dominant. The best of ours came on almost equal answer. You were not dominant. We were dominant. The scoreline is very tight. Chelsea absolutely had chances.
10:02but Arsenal were absolutely dominant yesterday and then deserved the praise. It's a complete contradiction of terms. They can have chances but they'll know where they'll score. Geoff, you can be dominant and still concede chances. Dominant doesn't mean you restrict the opposition and especially an opposition like Chelsea. It does. Dominant means you don't give the opposition any chances. You can concede a chance and still be dominant, Geoff.
10:22Charlie Eccleshare:You can. Charlie, I mean, this is quite a cheerful knowing instalment of TalkSport's usual sort of daily debates, social media output. But there's enough about the rhythm of that that feels clichés-y. They were so close to getting close to sort of establishing the threshold for dominance there. I wanted to hear more. Yeah, what's interesting, because I thought this was going to be, that it was going to descend into, I thought Laura was going to mention XG and that that was going to get Stellings back up. Because it was quite a weird game, actually, in that Chelsea, it felt like Chelsea had loads of chances.
10:54They had like 0.35 worth of XG, which suggests they didn't really have a high quality of chances. So it's quite a good one for this debate because what the numbers said and what the eyes said, I think, were fairly different. But yeah, I mean, the central question is quite cliché.
11:11Charlie Eccleshare:Well, on that central question, Dave, can a dominant team in a game, do they have to keep it tight at their back? Can you let chances go and still be a dominant team? I think you can still have the upper hand in a sort of end-to-end clash, can't you? Yeah, well, the upper hand is different to being dominant, though, I would say. so would I yeah I mean I think I agree broadly agree with with Laura I think it doesn't have to be a complete like we had 20 odd shots and the other team had nothing if you if you have I don't know what Arsenal had on the day but like if you have by far the majority of shots possession territory XG the other team can still have something you've still been dominant you've still dominated them across the 90 minutes but they have you know the balance of probability suggests that in a football match, they're going to always have one or two moments.
12:02That's just the way it goes.
12:04Charlie Eccleshare:It's a worthwhile debate, Charlie, because dominance is quite a nebulous sort of concept. But I think it's summed up by possession and territory more than shots on goal, I would say. Because it's all about having a stranglehold on the game dominance rather than peppering the other team. If you're just basically, you know, we can hurt you when we want. That, to me, is dominance. Dominance in a football game doesn't necessarily say you've had 15 to 20 shots in a game. Yeah, I mean, one is sort of territorial dominance though, isn't it? But I think that's interesting because like Chelsea, to use Chelsea-Arsenal as an example, I think like Mourinho's Chelsea against Wenger's Arsenal was quite a good example of a team.
12:41Arsenal would often have much more of the possession, much more of the territory. Yeah, but it was like, but you knew, it still didn't feel like they were dominant because Chelsea had that threat on the break. And like, so that's an example of, I think you can still feel like the dominant team, i.e. Chelsea were, even, you know, they'd win 2-0 and they'd just pick them off, even though by most metrics they weren't really. That fixture remains
13:05Charlie Eccleshare:a really good case study of the whole situation. I like that. Aston Villa kicked off their Champions League campaign, Dave, with a 3-2 win over Club Bruges. John McGinn opened the scoring with what I now believe is his trademark finish, but so trademarked that not only does it sort of characterise him, but it opens up a sort of debate about why other players aren't doing this. But it is such an important skill it's that ball coming across your body or sort of sorry coming towards you from the outside and you're controlling that curled finish and essentially using it and not dragging it and it and all those things are so hard to control but he makes it look really easy like it's a really delicate touch he's basically flicking it rather than curling it he is doing something that i saw an instagram reel of at some point a little while ago where it was one of those coaches on Instagram doing little drills.
13:57And the drill was, I think it was framed as, here's why you're putting all your shots wide or something. And he shows you what you're doing wrong. And it's like trying to curl the ball into the opposite far corner. Naturally, you kind of want to try and really put a lot on it. And you're often getting your body shape wrong. You're putting too much on it. And he just said, the secret he said was, imagine you're not having a shot. Imagine you're passing the ball to someone who stood on the post. and that's how it's always described it's just yeah it's just gonna go in because you're gonna get the accuracy and you'll be controlled and you'll be relaxed just on that so vividly playing football university a friend of mine said he was like because someone who was really good really rapid kept going through and but his finishing was so erratic he was just trying to like rip the covers off the ball just hit it as hard as he could and he was like you would never if you were like playing a simple pass to someone you wouldn't you know you wouldn't just smash it like you're you've got so much to aim at and it is just like you think of that which is obviously a hard thing to sort of be composed in that moment but it is weird the logic that you think to score i'm gonna
14:59Charlie Eccleshare:have to absolutely whack it so this isn't i mean it seems to be half about technique sort of not letting that ball sort of get dragged to the wrong side but also just about resisting the urge to hit the ball too hard and that's why every time he does this goal it's described as passing it into the net it's it's like conspicuously almost exaggeratedly composed the way he has he basically just flicks it with his foot i think more players just need to take note of this because i think more goals would be scored in these situations i guess the risk is and and this one yesterday like if the goalkeeper does just fully read you and go really early and you go for a finish like mcgin did yesterday there is a chance he just scoops it up really easily like that's sort of the risk you take if you go for finesse but the crucial thing to get remember he has that other I remember in the Europa League tie against Forest, he basically did one of each.
15:47I was thinking of the game. He has that near post finish as well, which I guess sort of keeps the goalkeepers honest. And I guess, you know, because Henry was the classic one, wasn't he? He was like, why don't goalkeepers just like stand miles into that corner? Like, you know where he's going, but obviously you can't really do that.
16:02Charlie Eccleshare:On Villa, they finally got their first win of the season, Dave, after three straight defeats, if you include the European Super Cup and a 0-0 draw at Hull. and the BBC said Aston Villa breathed life into their season as they edged to a narrow Champions League victory over Club Bruges. Brief Base 1038 on Reddit says can you really breathe life into a season when you've only played four games? I don't know. I think it might be alright. I think once you've established that you've had a poor start that's when life is able to be breathed into your season. I think I would have preferred Kickstart personally.
16:32Well, I think you can breathe life into your season because they have had an especially poor start Plus there's sort of greater narrative around them with the churn of players and all that stuff. And I think, you know what, I think the fact that this is in a Champions League game, the fact that it's in Europe and not the Premier League helps the breathing of life. I think if they win, if they beat Forest on Saturday, then they kickstarted their Premier League season. But I think... So kickstarting is competition specific to you, but life breathing is universal.
17:04Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I think so. I think that's quite good. I know what you mean, Dave. this is like a restorative sort of mini break away isn't it for them yeah this is just what we needed actually like it's been it's been a hard few weeks but this really this really breathes life back into us oh I'm really buzzing for Ljubljana in March now next up this came from Darush Gorgizada here's our friend Mark Scott on match of the day commentator's duty for Everton versus Manchester United on Sunday and Sean's ball in is Hedon Bancesco who may well have won it for Manchester United here for the second season running came off the bench to win it 1-0 last season and on as a sub to make it 2-1 late doors today Dave I've been I've been waiting for the moment to address I'm not going to say the scourge just the growing influence of late doors but I think maybe once it once it passed the Rubicon of being used on Match of the Day, maybe that was the moment we addressed it.
18:05Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, it's really creeping into the lexicon now. I think Micah Richards is very much a late doorsman, as you're very well aware of. He does love it, yeah. And I think this is another moment. This is another step forward for it. Now that somebody as esteemed as Mark Scott is dropping it into Match of the Day commentary, I mean, it's one thing for a pundit to use it, yeah. It's another thing for a commentator to use it, I think. Okay. I completely agree. I completely agree that that is a fundamental difference in its usage, Charlie. But how do you feel about late doors? I mean, early doors is so embedded in football culture.
18:40Charlie Eccleshare:I wouldn't say it's evocative, but it is a thing. Does late doors do the converse job for you? It doesn't really. It's one of those ones where it's the sort of thing. I heard this watching match today and I knew straight away. I was like, this is going to provoke debate. It's not one I feel particularly strongly about. But I can see that some purists go, oh, it's not late doors. Early doors is a thing, isn't it? At pubs, that's where it comes from. Whereas I'm not sure late doors is. So if you care about those things. Kids are going to be using it now. I know it's been on Match of the Day, Dave.
19:12Charlie Eccleshare:Late doors will take hold now. Does that mean extra times are locking then? Excellent. Yeah, it works really, really well. Moving on, cracked badge at the beleaguered BBC. Monty Don is leaving Gardner's World. just yet another big name departure from the BBC. My mum posted on Facebook, Monty Don throwing in the trowel. Bang goes the highlight of Friday evening. It was too close to Telegraph, sort of football focus commentary here. Does she think that he's going to be replaced by some sort of terrible young YouTuber? Young YouTuber, yeah. Throwing in the trowel is brilliant. Yeah. I'd like to think she thought that of herself and didn't steal it from somewhere else.
19:56Charlie Eccleshare:but yeah you could hang up a trowel as well couldn't you I guess oh yeah I think all garden implements are designed to be hung up these days yeah so all good gardeners are hanging up their equipment but yeah gardening cliches with Mrs. Hurry with Kate Hurry yeah sure why not I'll float it next up this came from Sy Mintoft here's Forest versus Spurs on Saturday Leon Osman on 5 Live Co-coms as the visitors hook new signing Savio on the hour mark there was no end product from Savio at all, was there? No, but he was actually flattering, but also deceiving. He was doing some brilliant movements and chopping and twisting, but the people in the penalty were getting so frustrated, they took a short corner at one point.
20:39He twisted and turned,
20:41Charlie Eccleshare:never got anywhere. I don't think I've ever heard that phrase, deconstructed Charlie. The idea that they could sort of, you know, work exclusively from each other. Both flatter and deceiving. I mean, it is a weird expression. So it's one I can see once you get to grips with it. Yeah, it's just, it's weird. and once you get tangled up in it you can see what's happened to the Osmond because often you do that don't you with an expression you're like you know he's barely even that but with this because it is you have to just say it and move on we all know what it means even though literally it's it sounds odd so yeah you just don't don't get in those weeds Leon what is the classic usage of flattering to deceive in football Dave is it sort of showy winger that doesn't have an end product it's all just for show but how does the phrase apply itself I've never really got to grips with it i have to say well that's that's what it is it's something that looks better and that promises much but ultimately doesn't deliver right that's i think that's the purest kind of meaning of the phrase right i think i you i think i used it to with you and you express similar concerns about your lack of appreciation for it i used it with you were talking about leon and buying breakfast from leon in a train station all right i was thinking the film the leaguer outfit the city of leon yeah promises so much the airport it looks good but really once you sit down and is it that good on one hand it's an immaculate observation because it does leave you a little bit wanting more leon but i have to say you know in the grand scheme of things that are available near an office charlie leon's right up there like it just it breaks from the norm again i mean Pound for pound though, Leon, you've got to ask, is it worth what you've got to pay, quantity-wise?
Read the full transcript
22:24Charlie Eccleshare:It isn't flattering to deceive territory. That's an incredible shout. But yeah, the film, immaculate. Not taking any shit for that. Right, next up, from the highlights of Crystal Palace's Carabao Cup victory over Middlesbrough, as Jorgen Strand-Larsen makes it 2-0 at Selhurst. He just gets in the right place at the right time. I will not accept this, Charlie. I will not have nutted it. Nutted. Obviously, you know, it's a perfectly logical thing to reach for, but I don't like it. It doesn't evoke anything for me. If anything, it takes it away from the technique. Nutted. What about butted? Nutted, fine.
23:08But nutted is preserved purely for headbutts. yes
23:13Charlie Eccleshare:that's the rule yeah this is clear cut as that anyway this episode is brought to an association with NordVPN for those who don't know VPN stands a virtual private network it secures your connection protecting your personal information and online activity especially on public Wi-Fi the VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country which is great for accessing content while travelling indeed over the pond we go this came from Philip Crowver sorry our commentary for AC Milan versus Juventus and he says the The co-commentator on CBS appears to know the word that is about to come out of his mouth after Alfaggio Cisse gives Milan the lead.
23:48Charlie Eccleshare:The little pause before he says it is so good. Right into that bottom corner. It's a tremendous hit. His first goal of beauty in round one. And he takes matters into his own feet there. Not everything has to be footballized, Dave, does it? the pause yeah that's exquisite do i go for it hands could hands could still work it could be a phrase that still applies but no um yeah the pause is just the right length charlie i think for everybody concerned i wonder as well if he's influenced because they show vicario the uventus keeper just as he's about to say and then if he suddenly thinks oh shit i can't really use that like that's that's is that a goalkeeper thing is that a goalkeeper only thing i better not use it it really really does not have the same effect at all once he's once he's changed the phrase don't like it if you want to try nordvpn for yourself go to nordvpn.com slash cliches and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan it's the best discount available there's no risk with nord's 30-day money-back guarantee and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it we'll be back very shortly
25:26We'll be right back.
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27:04Charlie Eccleshare:welcome back to football cliches dreamland episode 31 is in the pipeline um you can sign up for dreamland for just 5.99 a month for that you'll get ad-free listening two episodes a month of dreamland or exclusive show and access to the premium section of happy hunting grounds as well Other things too, including of course free tickets to Clichés Quiz Live. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. In the spirit of the Clichés Quiz Live, let's tackle the ladder. This is where we're going to try and go through 10 levels of Premier League goalscorer guessing. Let's start at level one. Who has scored for Manchester City at Turf Moor?
27:41I hate to be boring, but you know who did score on opening night. What season would that have been? 24, where? Last season, but then before that, they were relegated, so it's either 23, Oh yeah, so 23, 24. Yeah, 23, 24.
28:00Charlie Eccleshare:That man, Erling Haaland. Burnley nil, Manchester City three, goal scorers, Rodri, and at the double, Erling Haaland. Level two, who has scored for West Ham at Goodison Park? Not Paulo de Canio, famously. No. Well, certainly not in that game. Level two. Tricky little level two, but it's happened quite a lot, so that's why it's there. It's a venerable fixture. Would Payet have... I mean, it's possible. I'm trying to think if I can actually remember. Just one season, though, isn't it, really? Yeah, one and a half. West Ham, again, one of those clubs who've never had a really sort of outstanding, long-serving goal scorer.
28:32Reliable goal scorer. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Mikel Antonio, he sort of spans a few seasons, doesn't he? Why is he... He can't picture the goal sometimes. Suchek. Yeah. Pakata.
28:43Charlie Eccleshare:Don't mind Suchek, I have to say. A West Ham-Everton game. Early doors. Is there like a relegation, battle-y one that's gone down in Premier League folklore for either team? I fear for us here. I really fear for us. Tony Cotty. West Ham, Everton. What is a... Muted celebration. I mean, I'm basically ruling out the first 10 years of the Premier League here because I've got nothing. Or, yes, I would say Antonio or Bowen are the sort of modern... I think we should go more Bowen here. But what season? Goodness me. Well... Bowen, Antonio. That's it. 23-24. Bowen 23-24 yeah I don't know which season was better for him he was alright in both those seasons wasn't he yeah I prefer it the season I don't know 24-25 Bowen yeah last season at Goodison it had to be him right that's it Bowen 24-25 oh no Everton 1 West Ham 1 goal score off to 67 minutes it's Thomas bloody Suchek you know who sometimes I sometimes go for with West Ham He's Julian Dix, because he was a penalty taker.
29:52But yeah, OK, there you go, level two.
29:55Charlie Eccleshare:Dix has scored a penalty. There you go. Has he ever scored there, Bone? Bone has never scored there. We've tumbled off the ladder on level two. This does not bode well for our future quiz prospects. Good news for Dave's edit, though, and that's the main thing. Next up, Harrison writes in, Charlie, and says, Dominic Calvert-Lewin got played through against Brighton and attempted to round the keeper and get a shot off before Lewis Dunk got back and cleared it. Is DCL the least rounding the keeper first choice striker in the Premier League? If not, who? Do you appreciate the logic here? Yeah, I mean, I guess with him generally, it's just I think of him as such a header-y kind of striker.
30:32That's his bread and butter, isn't it? If I think of a Calvert-Lewin goal, it's that rather than any sort of finish, let alone a rounding the keeper. I mean, as we know from Gary Lineker's MHD, this is on a steep decline. Who else? I mean, I guess what are the things you need? You need to have fairly good feet and composure in front of goal. What pace to get behind in the first place?
30:53Charlie Eccleshare:I'm not sure there's a standout keeper rounder in the Premier League, Dave. You know, factually or otherwise. Jean-Petro? Jared Bowen? He's more of a slot at home, isn't he? Of course he would. It's a dying art rounding of the keeper. I'm looking at a list of strikers here. I'm not seeing many rounders among them. So read out the top goal scorers from last season. Is he saying who the most is or who the least is? He's the least because he did try and do it and he thought that was weird. Harlan doesn't do it. Izak doesn't do it. Thiago. Izak, I can't imagine doing it though. I wouldn't. I mean, he sort of did it the other night, didn't he?
31:37He didn't round the keeper, but he kind of had to shift it to one side and then slotted it.
31:42Charlie Eccleshare:Eketike could be a rounder Nicholas Jackson I don't think he'd overthink it yeah it's done who was the last great round keeper rounder that's a good question Ronaldo Ronaldo Ronaldo was yeah if you count step yeah I mean yeah if you step over that's rounding so yeah of course he was Kanu did a few sort of novelty ones I mean he did that dummy one didn't he on against Deportivo and he could he kind of had a chop that would could take a rounder keeper yeah I mean, Ed De Hoyt, that one at Stamford Bridge, is technically... Oh, yeah, but that's a rounding. I spoke where you got to, really. But he shows his quick feet, doesn't he?
32:19Charlie Eccleshare:He can go past the keeper. OK, let's move on. Aidan Brooks writes in next, Dave, and says, Is there a time limit on the phrase, makes no mistake this time? Can you feasibly use it at the end of a game for a chance missed early on? Also, does it have to be an equally presentable chance as the first, or will any goal do? I'm interested in the time threshold here. or is it just the significance of the earlier missed chance but i'd say it's probably got to be within a half hour window of the first one maybe yeah i don't think if i don't think you can use it to like bookend the game if they've had other chances in between obviously oh like i think it has to be one one has to follow the other but yeah i think i think it can be like if yeah if you did miss a really presentable chance in the first five minutes of the game and then you scored the winner in injury time, I think you could use that.
33:08I don't think it's fresh enough in the memory, Charlie. I don't know. If it's a miss that really has defined that player's game and has been a bit of a talking point, you know, and he needs a goal, I think you might get away with that.
33:19Charlie Eccleshare:I was going to suggest that VAR, you know, when you have a goal disallowed by VAR and then go on to score and he says, well, this one certainly will count. That's probably got a longer window because it's more significant at VAR disallowed goal than a missed chance, even if it is a glaring one. But it is an interesting question. It's interesting for us, at least. How about when you, like Harry Kane did against Croatia in the World Cup, you have a penalty, you get saved, and then you have to retake the penalty and you score that. Surely that would be a... Yeah, that's a snow mistake this time. Yeah, I like, I mean, yeah, no question.
33:54Charlie Eccleshare:I do like makes no mistake from the penalty spot. I think that's the perfect environment for it. Footballers' names in things next. two variations on the theme for you this first one came from Craig it's from the highlights of Lincoln vs Southampton at the weekend here is commentator John Driscoll accidentally commentating to the rhythm of you're getting sacked in the morning as the imps find an equaliser it'll pop out of nowhere I swear Bayliss to Hackett he plays it across it's got to be the giant striker has made his mark Saints switched off they lost the giant centre forward and he's nodded Lincoln City level it's not just the rhythm Charlie there's a bit of the tune as well isn't it yeah it really takes them over they lost the giant centre forward it's subtle enough Dave that I don't think he would have known at the time that he was doing it but then I suppose if you're enough of a football person if that did pass your lips accidentally I think your brain would get into gear and go, whoa.
35:01Charlie Eccleshare:You'd have to stop yourself repeating it like Charlie's and stuff. That's one of the subtler ones we've had. It's very, it's, you know, we'll file it alongside Fletch's knick-knack paddywhack from a couple of seasons ago. Tremendous. This next one came from Ben Deprez. It's some research published by Harvard Medical School. The headline saying, Mammalian genes can combine to make previously unknown mRNAs, proteins. Chimeric mRNA could provide new insight into difficult-to-treat diseases. So, potentially huge moment. And a quote from one of the authors of this research. There are suddenly many new possibilities for this kind of molecules and proteins that cells can create, said Harry Kane, co-first author and HMS and Jean Lay Institute research fellow in immunology in the Jackson Lab.
35:46Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, give him the Ballon d 'Or now, Charlie. I mean, the PR kind of campaign was already in full flow, and now he's just got to solve loads of diseases. probably. Get these two together. Do a sort of job swap. All I wanted there, Dave, was because at the end of all these usual releases, there's always a hint of caution at the end saying, well, you know, certain things are many years away yet. Don't get too excited. And all we need is a sort of, you know, it is what it is. End of the quote saying it could modulate release of inflammatory molecules from cells, but it is what it is. It's a shame, really, that none of us have really got the impression in our locker, have we?
36:21Charlie Eccleshare:No, don't do it! Don't even think about it. No, don't even think about it. It's fine. Because you can't. You can't. It's fine. No, it isn't. And that's it. Right, moving on, a quick one from the Reddit. Someone had a Gary Cotterell story. Recently, I was asked to sit in a different seat while working at a Brentford game because Gary Cotterell refused to sit in row 13. Dave, I mean, of all the things we knew about Gary Cotterell, throwing in some basic superstition as well, that's annoying. Wow. Yeah, okay. A Trisky Decaphobic. Yeah. Okay, listen, fair play. Maybe it was just too far away. Maybe he needed to be in sort of thick of the action.
36:58I wonder how much of a scene he made about it. Did he get really flustered? Maybe he got really wrapped. Can't see the 13th. Do you think that's just where that would have come from? I feel like he would have gone and covered an Italian game and a manager would have said that and he'd have been like, oh yeah, I want a bit of that. That sounds like a fun thing to have.
37:16Charlie Eccleshare:Does that really hold your career back? I don't know. I wouldn't have thought so. No, I wouldn't have thought so either. That should have held his nerve. Sorry, mate. I'm not moving. I think you'll be all right, if I'm honest. What are you going to do about it, Gary Cottrell? Matt Stanger writes in next. He says, I just heard the Sky EFL co-commentator describe Sheffield United's City Peck as playing like primetime Lampard rather than simply prime. I quite like this, Charlie, even if it might be accidental, because it's an even narrower window of great Lampard. Lampard is best, but only in like a Monday 8pm.
37:50Charlie Eccleshare:in the evening yeah exactly under the lights prime time obviously is a big like thing in american sports they're like oh so you know this match will be on at prime time i mean are there players who are sort of quite you know those players who sort of do mainly kind of show up when it is it's the big big occasion uh you know the under the light something like drogba was quite a prime time sort of player i feel like you know he would really come alive in those big matches when everyone was watching well you're right it brings to mind american sports i believe that deon sanders in the nfl was prime time that was his nickname it's a nickname i think more than you know if lampard had been if frank lampard had been an nfl quarterback or something maybe he would have been prime time frank lampard francis lampard the third maybe um anyway speaking of those who operate best in the prime time hours it's time for keys and gray corner
38:59Ford Super Sunday.
39:03Charlie Eccleshare:A couple of episodes of Keys and Grey unleashed to catch up on. Episode seven was Keys and Grey's, well, actually just Keys, he's top six commentators. I've watched the whole thing. it's an episode that promised a lot Charlie and delivered some genuinely very good chat because they've seen a lot of commentators in their time Keezy's been in the industry a lot he had a lot of insight into what makes a good commentator so for that alone it's actually quite a good listen as you probably expect right yeah there was just one bit at the end like as we'll hear Grey and maybe in the full episode he does go into this but Grey because Keezy obviously likes Sam Atterface and talks about him but he likes Sam Atterface which is you know I think more to do the fact that he likes him he thinks he's a top man top operator and then gray sort of goes along with that and says like he's the best of the modern bunch but i'd love to know why like given gray is such a great commentator what is it about sam matterface that andy gray thinks is really good i'm gonna throw a theory in there they work together and he didn't offend him in any way sure yeah well i think it's more he like yeah kesey obviously likes him he's on he's in kesey's good books and gray's sort of going along with it but um like i would given gray was such a great commentator i'd be curious to know really what he like what he does think makes a good one yeah so so a lot of insight from several decades of working with some of the best commentators in the business dave but here is my top two and a half minutes of this whole episode
40:30top six commentators of all time there's some good lads operating today but there are there There are some good operators. Yeah, there are. I think there are some good lads operating now. There are. I love listening to John Champion. And I'll tell you why. Because I think John is the master of silence. Radio, you need lots of words. Yeah. Okay? Silence is a killer. And of course, there's our mate Sam Matterface. So I think he slipped into the role at ITV seamlessly. Brian Moore. Brian, I don't wish to be disrespectful, but I'm going to have to be to explain myself. I don't think his identification was as good as it should have been.
41:05And Brian, Brian, it's in there. Right. You know, there were too many occasions when it was in there. It's in there! And it was in there because he didn't know he'd scored. Barry Davis. Franny Lee wearing a Derby jersey. Interesting, said Barry. Very interesting! He goes, that's what I've been wanting him to do! He would drift in, do the job, and get out. Yeah. And he was really good at that. Three? What about four? Oh, four? Sorry, yeah, I thought it was nice. Clive Tilsley. He was a wordsmith of the highest order. No, not a bad songwriter. David Coleman. Porterfield, one nil. Aye. And what followed?
41:47What followed? No. No. No. No. World class finishing. Marty yes he's 80 now Martin spoke to him last week the voice the voice we used to call him not even the voice it was just voice just voice I've got him in my phone you know why he was voice you know why he was voice because he couldn't be face could he but Martin 80 I know and he's still doing it still doing it and you can be 80 and be shit don't drink fizzy water just destroyed the phone he didn't drink fizzy water because it made him burn and the guys I mentioned earlier will become somebody's legends I'm very sure that it won't be long before Sam Matterface is in that top sector he's the boy for me he's the one for me
42:38Charlie Eccleshare:Sam Matterface is the daddy according to Andy Gray that's astonishing praise perhaps a few years away from being the daddy but the standout moment for me Dave has to be you could be 80 and shit i know like it doesn't make any sense it's like it it's more it would make more sense to say you can be 80 and still be good well i think he's isn't he saying that like you know it's one thing just doing it you know it'd be one thing if you're just you're 80 and you're doing it but you're not very good i think he's his implication is that tyler's both 80 and still good but yeah it's a very strangely worded thing the bit my favorite thing is when andy just goes right and then what comes next and andy just completely guessing when he's like no it's like no what are you talking about like he has no idea what what kesey's talking about just guess just says a word and hopes it might be right there are some real stream of consciousness moments throughout keys and gray unleashed um over the last sort of six years of analyzing um their broadcasting day we've always had a slight glimpse into their phones every now and then especially kesey's i can you imagine the state of their contacts list in terms of how they write their names of the people that they love i mean voice for tyler not even just voice just voice just voice just voice that is amazing voice voice wow i bet they greet him like that as well um but yeah i mean well they're now eight episodes in charlie keys and gray unleashed they've got some merch t-shirts and polos you've got to have polos as well yeah can't just be t-shirts polos for gray t-shirts for keys imagine bowling about in a keys gray unleashed t-shirt we all have to get one don't we seeing one in the wild they um we should wear one on stage at the live quiz but they um they should get those they should get those ones you know that style where it's like i guess it's like kind of like an 80s sort of stylized 80s kind of bandy sort of t-shirt but it's like you see people wearing them now do you know the ones i mean it's like almost like illustrated kind of it's like a big thing on your on the front of the t-shirt do you know what you know what i mean i think you would know what i mean hyper stylized right hyper stylized right maybe like an illustrated kind of picture like neon colors kind of thing with like the name of the person at the top or whatever yeah like you see people like wearing ironic versions of that like they should like with like i don't know zach polanski on or something ridiculous yeah you know what i mean yeah that's That's what we need.
45:02That's what they need.
45:03Charlie Eccleshare:Merch after eight episodes. I mean, fair play. Not mucking around. They're doing Tubes' golf show soon, Dave. That's the next step. Just real acceptance in the mainstream, doing Tubes' golf show. Good to know that they're reconnecting with the Sky alumni. I mean, that will be interesting. Because I can't really... I can imagine Andy being half decent at golf. I can't imagine Keithy swinging a golf club. I don't know who's better, actually. I was told they're handicapped at one point, but I've completely forgotten, which is really annoying. I think on the 93-94 Premier League years, there's some golfing banter.
45:37I can't remember. I think it's both of them playing. And they sort of show it to them in the studio.
45:43Charlie Eccleshare:In the ninth hole at Turnberry. 33 years ago. Surely their handicaps have improved since then. On the end of the episode, this. This is from episode eight. Here, they're using chat GPT to adapt classic commentary lines into modern youth speak. Oh, yeah, beauty. what a hit son what a hit oh my days bro bro has cooked an absolute get of a goal what absolute get what an absolute yat what's that Harry what's a yat I don't know I've got no clue a yat do you know what that is yeah good go on yeah you can't just say it good you've made that up do you know what Dave I'm heartened by these guys just enjoying themselves embracing a bit of you know alternative culture but it's a weird insight into my life and quite unnerving that the only two people in the entire universe I've heard say the word Giat are HS Tiki Toki and Richard Key.
46:50Charlie Eccleshare:What a Venn diagram that is, by the way. The less said about that, the better. Just tremendous stuff. I don't know what content they've got lined up soon, but how can it get any better than that? Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you. Thanks to you, David Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.
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From the publisher
Adam Hurrey is joined on the Adjudication Panel by Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker. On the agenda: Dean Saunders continues his intermittent campaign against modern football terminology, tinpot scenes in the Yashin Trophy nominations, a Talksport debate about the threshold for in-game dominance, John McGinn's trademark caressed curler, the growing usage of "late doors", an unacceptably casual word for a headed goal, the least "rounding the goalkeeper" striker in the Premier League, commentary to the accidental rhythm of football chants and Richard Keys's top 6 commentators of all time.
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