Literally ghosting, Larry David's Champions League commentary & Sir Alex's 2011/12 title curse

10:47Charlie Eccleshare:I was sitting watching this game, Nick, with my father-in-law, and we had this we had this very conversation about whether, you know, it really does have to be a forceful push if you've basically you know redirected someone in midair we both came to the conclusion that regardless of the of the force of the foul gabriel the only way gabriel is going to win that free kick is if he makes a meal out of it which is another thing he was criticized for and the moment we both came to that opinion gary neville then said it on the tv and it was such a unifying thing i thought yes this is it everyone is in agreement that players do actually have to win a free kick like that did you kind of sort of share

11:20Adam Hurrey:and nod and then take a glug of your drink or something safe in the knowledge that you would

11:23Charlie Eccleshare:you'd nailed it yeah real kinship going on there andy townsend on world feed duty charlie described jed spence in his uh left back role as bobbing weaving and jinking keith says what do these three components look like and is there any overlap between them and for a start let's start with jinking jinking is a kind of strange kind of word that's become the standard thing for a kind of wide player what is jinking that common anymore i feel a very 70s thing jinking isn't it yeah all

11:54Nick Miller:i can think of is on one of the old pro evo games i think it was brackley talked about a super jinking run and that's all i can think of with with jinking it's because it is it's a very outdated

12:06Adam Hurrey:can't remember the last time i heard that who is the jinkiest winger nick of all time it's uh jimmy johnson who played for celtic who was called jinky his nickname was jinky johnson

12:18Charlie Eccleshare:I was just trying to Google it and I came up with Pat Nevin, so I was close.

12:21Adam Hurrey:Well, that's not bad. I think you have to be, to be jinky, you do have to be quite sort of slight and short, but quick. So jinky seems like more kind of angular movements, whereas weaving, you may be taking a kind of curved path. Yeah. Then bobbing is obviously the strange kind of vertical movement that it implies, but I'm not really sure how that works in someone ducking under someone's arm or something.

12:48Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, that's a bit of a crossover with boxing, I would say, Bobbing, Charlie. But weaving is a bit more, you need a bit more pace, a bit more athleticism about you. It's a bit more sort of, you know, over 100 yards you could weave. It's essentially like slaloming, isn't it? But jinking, you don't need pace to be a jinking winger, do you?

13:04Nick Miller:I mean, weaving is slaloming, isn't it? There's certainly overlap. Think of the Giggs goal against Arsenal. He's kind of weaving in and out. Giggs was a weaver, no question. Yeah.

13:13Adam Hurrey:Yeah. weaving you maybe you can jink past one player but you can't weave past one player you have to weave you have to weave past a number of players spot on i actually agree with that yes uh yeah

13:24Charlie Eccleshare:you have to you essentially have to link two things together and you can't just have one player to jink to weave past uh spot on absolutely right uh victor jokeres talking after the game tapping into something we've been talking about recently on this pod as well we do that a few times in

13:39Adam Hurrey:training i think and then obviously i watched his goals against these last last game so yeah tried to replicate it a little bit and yeah it works it was a nice goal this is very deliberate

13:50Charlie Eccleshare:pointed these lot he's been instructed to use this hasn't he charlie i feel like only a scandinavian could have that good a grasp of english that they know even like the these or the these lot i mean

14:01Nick Miller:we've talked about these before as well yeah in relation to sunday league it's it's a great thing like you know these are shit but um yeah i mean i guess he could have gone this lot couldn't he he could either have got like these or this lot these lots maybe a bit of a combo these slightly

14:16Charlie Eccleshare:more sort of derisive maybe i'm not sure but nick there was a lot of nuance in um sort of them lot and these lot that we've talked about over the last couple of weeks but in this particular example it is at its most effective it is his most taunting isn't it yeah very much so it's uh it is

14:32Adam Hurrey:best deployed when referring to someone you're rivals with who you've just beaten quite handily and are objectively shit. So it works really well. If I was to nitpick with Jokerez, I would have liked a kind of a thumb over his shoulder as he was saying these lot.

14:52Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, I completely agree. Especially away from home as well. That would have been good. Charlie, I feel like there's only one rung up the ladder from here, which is... You often see it on social media, even like from official club accounts, where they might refer to their rivals as them, as only as them, and refuse to use their name, which I think is just one rung too far, I think, all round.

15:12Nick Miller:Them down the road. Yeah. Isn't there a thing as well where some accounts won't mention like a former player by name if he scores against them? Wow. Like another level of kind of pettiness.

15:23Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, that is pathetic. Finally, I don't know what your favourite press conference question was over the weekend. Was it the athletic Charlotte Harper grilling Eileen Gu about how her brain works in press conferences? Or was it Gary Cotterell asking Mikel Arteta about the official's communication equipment not working? Hi, Gary. Hello, Mikel. Surprise me. Congratulations, Kel.

15:49Adam Hurrey:What's that? The communications issues officials. What did you make of it?

16:00Charlie Eccleshare:Charlie, for perhaps the first time, do we have to give Cottrell some comic credit here? Did he actually pull that off quite well?

16:06Nick Miller:I mean, it worked. Arteta was sort of, he bought it. He was confused, wasn't he? Look, these things are often very formulaic. And so in a way, at least he's, you know, cutting through the kind of po-faced seriousness of press conferences. So I don't, yeah, it's fine.

16:23Charlie Eccleshare:That's probably enough praise for Cottrell, Nick. Are we definitely at the stage now where we know he's acting unilaterally? This wasn't on Sky's behalf, was it? This wasn't for Sky's benefit. He's thought this up himself and he's gone for it. It's all for him. But to what end? He's got no great social media presence. This isn't going to go viral on his channels. What's the point?

16:43Adam Hurrey:He's just keeping himself entertained at this stage. I've asked all the, what were your thoughts on that game, Mikkel questions. Just entertaining himself. He's a man who, I don't know how old he is, what stage of his career, but maybe this seems like a man who's like, yeah, I don't really care. I've done what I want to do. So I'm just going to have fun for the next few years maybe. Rate out of 100, Charlie,

17:10Charlie Eccleshare:the level of patience Arteta now has with Cotterell based on that sort of very opening kind of acknowledgement of him.

17:17Nick Miller:Well, surprisingly, I think he, there was that poem earlier in the season as well, wasn't it? And you're thinking, I think the start of the season, you're thinking like, surely someone like Arteta is giving that the shortest of shriffs but he didn't seem to totally mind it and I mean I guess here he's just in such a good mood you know imagine if Arsenal just lost the game when he'd done this I cannot imagine how he would have responded to it but it looks as though Cottrell still got some gears to go with it before Arteta

17:41Charlie Eccleshare:kind of snapped yeah he's got a part to play in this title race yeah hasn't he yeah Gary Cottrell

17:46Adam Hurrey:well we were sort of giving some credit to Cottrell it's all very well doing this to a manager who knows you and has just won 4-1 but the real play would have been to do it to Igor Tudor who presumably doesn't has no idea who he is and has just been gubbed so yeah that would have been the

18:03Charlie Eccleshare:real play yeah I feel like even Cottrell knows where the line is and who he can play with so yeah we have to credit him with that as well elsewhere in the Premier League this came from Zach Bentley and Doug Doug Goose it's probably beneath us Charlie to pick up on when people use the word literally inappropriately because even even the dictionary kind of allows some flexibility with the word literally it's simply just an exaggerating kind of word but this is world feed co-commentator lee hendry describing zian fleming's late equalizer for burnley against

18:34Adam Hurrey:chelsea i mean it's a great delivery what browse it's got pace it's all about who can get on the end of it zian fleming's been a handful all game he literally goes into an area where i touch

18:48Charlie Eccleshare:There's so many centre-halves on the pitch. I love it. I love the idea of literally ghosting. I mean, in a football sense, it was textbook ghosting.

18:55Nick Miller:It is such a great version of the genre. It's an amazing ghosting, which kind of crystallised something in my mind. Literally, when people use it often, it does just mean it's a really extreme example of something. It's kind of all that saying, and we know that's what's being said. And I don't know if there's another way of saying that with quite so few words as just saying he's literally done this or something and and there like you do know what he means because he's basically saying like that is one of the finest examples of ghosting you're ever gonna see is basically what he's saying and it is imagine sharing a pint with lee hendry nick

19:29Charlie Eccleshare:and just discussing the fine art of ghosting whether this counts or not i mean i've praised i've praised the the textbookness of this ghosting but i do fear that zian fleming's run was a little bit too darty a little bit too deliberate and obviously you know ward prowse was actually aiming for him with the corner does that undermine the ghosting because ghosting needs to be a little

19:48Adam Hurrey:bit more undetected by everybody right yes i see what you mean the obviousness of he has you know someone's supposed to be marking him here and he's just completely free i think overrides that it is a little bit darty a little bit too much energy in it but uh yeah i think you have to it being so obvious i think that has to override it or the rest of the stuff i mean

20:13Charlie Eccleshare:Assuming, Charlie, that it was a training ground routine, maybe it was just a hit and a hope from Ward-Prowse, but if it was a training ground routine, no training ground corner routine could include ghosting. You couldn't actually script a bit of ghosting into a routine, could you? What we need you to do, mate, is ghost. Yeah, I think the fact that Ward-Prowse knows it,

20:33Nick Miller:that doesn't undermine the ghosting because you don't need to be catching everyone by surprise. It's just about catching your opponents by surprise. It's like that's sometimes like the genius of a good ghost is that we all sort of know this is about to happen. We're not going to say anything. We'll keep it very quiet. But then all the defenders are completely wowed. But, you know, that's what makes it so good. There are a lot of players there. And in the sort of initial camera shot, you can't really see him. You can just see like a kind of wall of defenders. And he does kind of come from nowhere.

21:03Nick Miller:I think you almost have to choreograph that.

21:06Charlie Eccleshare:OK, fair enough. Ryan Malone writes in next, Nick, and says, on the BN commentary for the Chelsea-Burnley game, at 1-0 to Chelsea, they said Burnley are yet to lay a glove on Chelsea. I've never understood exactly what this means or should mean. Does it mean they haven't had a shot, a shot on target or a goal? These things need to be clearer. What would you say is the threshold for laying a glove on a team?

21:30Adam Hurrey:It can't just be like one shot that you've laid. That's not laying a glove. I think there has to be a few, maybe two or three decent chances. Because one shot, if you just have a shot from the edge of the area or something and sky it over, that's not really threatening, is it? It's kind of, it's almost a, I know it's not letting your opponents know you're there, because that's obviously a reducer, but it is letting the opponents know that there is some kind of attacking threat. and I think two or three decent chances will do it. How good should these chances be, Charlie?

22:10Nick Miller:Well, I think as well, it is partly about intent as well and just looking like... Because I think it can be a sort of... Obviously, it's not talking about a physical thing necessarily, but that can help in your cause. It can be a cumulative thing. If you've had a shot or two, but also you have put in some big tackles and you've put yourself about and you've played with intensity and that kind of thing, So I don't think it's necessarily just as quantifiable as how many shots or good chances you have. It can be a bit more vibes-y than that.

22:42Charlie Eccleshare:This is interesting. And thanks to Ryan Malone for asking. Because I imagine there's a large proportion of football fans out there, Nick, who probably think one single shot on target and nothing else constitutes the laying of a glove. And I think it's good that we educate these people and ourselves.

22:55Adam Hurrey:The reason this podcast exists is for people like that. So they can stand corrected. Yeah, we've helped a lot of people.

23:01Nick Miller:We should say as well, it's very much in the category of like a no slouch or something like this. You would very rarely hear like, oh, and they have laid a glove on Chelsea. They've really done well to lay a glove or two.

23:13Charlie Eccleshare:Just to show that this really is a 360 degree education, it reminds me, I was on the Totally Football show about seven years ago, and we were talking about a game that had happened the weekend, and I couldn't remember the phrase. I came up with lay a paw on them. They had to stop the recording and go, what? What do you mean? I have no idea.

23:34Nick Miller:Are you imagining a cat sort of like scratching at them?

23:37Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, like a big cat. Yeah. Don't know why. They could still get you. You know, if it's sustained pressure, they'd still kill you. So it still works to some extent. Right. This next one came from Craig MacDonald. And it's clever work from Bill Leslie at the London Stadium on Saturday, just slowing his run to make sure contact is made with the stadium announcer. It's been in the water the last few minutes, hasn't it? the West Ham midfielder, something through Magasa, so off he comes. Not as spectacular as some of the recent examples we've had, Charlie, but that took skill. And that only a seasoned commentator can time his run like that.

24:14Nick Miller:He's a pro. Only an MHD veteran.

24:16Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah. He knew what was coming, Nick, didn't he? Because he saw the opportunity and thought, right, I've got a chance here. I can get myself on the Clichés podcast on Tuesday morning.

24:25Adam Hurrey:Yeah, the educational football Clichés podcast. Yes, it's also someone who spots something out the corner of his eye and just can't let the opportunity pass to produce that kind of moment of timing. So, yeah, top class, top class.

24:41Charlie Eccleshare:Five-syllable name as well, so that is a high degree of difficulty, Charlie, isn't it?

24:47Nick Miller:Yeah, I mean, the timing's got to be spot on.

24:52Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe he was in cahoots with the stadium announcer and he's just gaming the system. Who knows? But let's not assume we're the centre of the universe anymore. Karabag's Polish goalkeeper, Mateusz Kaczewski, was one of the notable characters in Newcastle running riot in Azerbaijan in the Champions League playoffs last week. Fletch on TNT, Charlie, said that Kaczewski will be telling his grandkids he made 10 saves in a Champions League knockout tie against Newcastle. Chemical buyer 9-1-1-7 says, Surely that doesn't meet the bar for telling your grandkids something, does it?

25:25Nick Miller:See, I don't know about this because I think this could be, depending on what he does the rest of his career, could be a real career highlight. And also he might be, if he does want a humble brag about it and not just do it as an outright brag to his grandkids, he could be doing it in such a way of being like, football's crazy, you know, because I remember I had a game and I conceded six and you'd think I had a bad game. I actually made 10 saves. It was one of the best games I had. So, you know, it's just a crazy game. so yeah I wouldn't totally rule out Kaczowski telling his grandkids about this.

25:57Charlie Eccleshare:You'd hope Nick that the grandkids are probing him on the actual result of the game aren't you?

26:02Adam Hurrey:I like the idea that he would lead with the saves and then some smart ass grandkid would go do you let any of those in at all? What was the result of this game? I can't remember, a bit before my time of course so I don't really, can you just, what was the scoreline? as he's shifting and becoming furious.

26:24Charlie Eccleshare:I hope he then launches into a tirade, Charlie, about Fletch. And let me tell you about Fletch as well, because you kids, you've got it easy these days with your cyborg AI commentary on the moon.

26:36Nick Miller:Tells him about Anthony Gordon.

26:40Charlie Eccleshare:Right, footballers' names in things next. This is sensational. It came from Johan Bueno Horsepool, which is an incredible name in its own right. It's from Greg James on Radio 1 last week, and it's footballers' names in two mates getting themselves a joint shout-out on the radio.

26:55Nick Miller:Before it, we had Stay Too Long, Plan B. Sounding really, really good. Anthems going well so far. Even if I didn't say so myself. Alison Becker in Cheltenham, hi to you.

27:07Charlie Eccleshare:That is sensational. Do you know what, Charlie? When it was said to me, I listened to it a couple of times. I thought, yeah, Alison Becker, we've had it a couple of times before. It's a surprisingly common name out there in both the, you know, real and fictional world. and then I realised it's Alice and Becca, which is sensational. Oh, was that what that was?

27:23Nick Miller:Yeah. Oh, right. Oh, I didn't get that. No, I fully thought it was another Alice and Becca. Yeah, lovely. Lovely touch. Well, not touch, just their names.

27:30Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't have to put any effort in whatsoever. Really glad they're friends, aren't you?

27:34Nick Miller:Maybe that sort of drew them together. This would make for a great bit.

27:37Charlie Eccleshare:Right, this episode of Football Clichés is brought to you in association with Saley, a new eSIM service app from the creators of NordVPN. Listeners, I will admit to a frisson of excitement when I land in a foreign country. my phone slowly finds a signal and the unfamiliar name of the local network operator finally appears at the top of my screen. But after that excitement usually comes fear about the charges I'll rack up if I use my data abroad. But these days, I don't have that fear because I can download Saley. Before I leave the UK, I open up my Saley app, buy some data for my destination, so when I land, I'm connected to a safe and secure internet connection that doesn't cost the earth.

28:12Charlie Eccleshare:They offer different data packages depending on how long I'm going for and they can be up to 10 times cheaper than roaming fees. Saley offers data plans for over 200 destinations, along with 24-7 support, so they've got me covered. But it's not just saving me money. Saley enables me to switch my device's virtual location to access apps and content from back home. To try it out for yourself, you can download Saley, that's S-A-I-L-Y, in your app store, and use our code Clichés at checkout to get an exclusive 15 % off your first purchase. Full details are in the episode description, or simply visit salie.com slash clichés.

28:46Charlie Eccleshare:We'll be back very shortly.

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29:54Adam Hurrey:CarGurus.com.

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30:06Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. Episode 18 of Dreamland is being recorded this week. we are covering Charlie Echo Share Soccer Saturday so much to talk about for Soccer Saturday and I feel the last time we covered it in any depth on the Football Clichés podcast was six years ago so a lot of water has gone under the Soccer Saturday bridge since then so it's a worthy follow up I think it certainly has

30:29Nick Miller:yeah think how much has happened to some of the regular panellists in that time

30:34Charlie Eccleshare:exactly so we'll cover all of that and more on Dreamland that we're recording this week you can sign up for Dreamland for just£5.99 a month You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes, plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. Also, this Thursday's episode will be the listeners' mes at Harlan Dix. If you want to get involved, send a 30-second voice note to footballcliches at gmail.com, or you can send it to me via DM on Twitter or Instagram, detailing your very niche footballing fascination or irritation. Let's make February's listeners' MHD one for the archives.

31:13Charlie Eccleshare:Right, back to the adjudication panel. Since we're not playing Happy Hunting Grounds, The Ladder on Thursday's episode because of listeners' emails at Holland Dix, let's do it today. But before that, listener Joe Morris, Charlie, has composed a possible theme tune for Happy Hunting Grounds, The Ladder. Let's hear this. I don't know if this is going to work particularly. Happy Hunting Grounds.

31:42Charlie Eccleshare:Is that the vibe we're going for?

31:45Nick Miller:It's quite very easy listening. I feel like we, or certainly I am probably more stressed during it, that that sounds like a lead into a nice morning breakfast show or something.

31:58Adam Hurrey:Yeah, what is the exact vibe of that tune? For me, it was like the opening to a season review video in the 80s or 90s. Oh, okay. So in that respect, I think it does fit with it slightly.

32:15Charlie Eccleshare:Potentially improvement on that one. This one came from the great Colin Roberts. How about this?

32:31Adam Hurrey:up the ladder, nailing every run. It's Happy Hunting Grounds. Let's have some fun.

32:43Charlie Eccleshare:Little twinkly pianos at the end, Charlie. Love that.

32:47Nick Miller:So funny.

32:48Charlie Eccleshare:It can't be Erling Haaland. Once again, Nick, perhaps not quite the vibe we're after, but did tap into some of the spirit of Happy Hunting Grounds. Absolutely. Superb work from Colin but the universe expands even more David Palmer wrote in Nick and sent me a spin-off game called flappy hunting grounds where you have to name a goalkeeper who has conceded for

33:09Adam Hurrey:team x at stadium y in the premier league that's really good I mean we we're struggling with the with the scoring the goals thing so it might be a bit too much but if someone has decided that you know mere happy hunting grounds is too too easy for them yeah well so yeah it's good to have a

33:27Charlie Eccleshare:specialism maybe uh the goalkeeping union could have a go at that one but yes anyway let's play happy hunting grounds the ladder the ultimate premier league goal scoring quiz a collaborative effort between the three of us to go from level one difficulty to level 10 we are still in the

33:40Nick Miller:level three doldrums at the moment are we yeah which we're better than that come on yeah to

33:46Charlie Eccleshare:progress beyond each rung of the ladder we have to name a player who has scored for that club at that stadium in the premier league and in which season if we only get the goal scorer right we get to go again if we don't name the scorer we fall off the ladder and we're done this season and last season are both excluded as of course is erling harland right level one who scored for

34:04Nick Miller:liverpool at the hawthorns uh alison yes great shout 2021 it was yes it was 2021 rather than

34:14Charlie Eccleshare:right at the end of that season 2020 2021 yeah alice and becca oh yeah great for this episode and of course the answer is correct. 90th minute, Alison Becker. Right, to level two we go. Great start. Who has scored for Brighton at the Emirates?

34:33Nick Miller:Trossard in 21-22.

34:35Charlie Eccleshare:Arsenal 1, Brighton 2. Goalscorers Enoch Mwepu and Leandro Trossard. Level three. It's been our ceiling so far, but we've changed personnel. Can we freshen things up? Who has scored for Aston Villa at the Amex?

34:49Adam Hurrey:Feels quite Watkins.

34:50Nick Miller:Yeah, I was going to say Watkins is the percentage play, isn't it?

34:53Adam Hurrey:I can picture John McGinn celebrating at that end as well, but I don't know. Hmm. Ah, who's that?

34:59Nick Miller:It's annoying because they won 4-3 this season there.

35:02Charlie Eccleshare:Really? How about that Watkins 23-24 then?

35:06Nick Miller:That's the percentage play because they were really good that season, came fourth, so.

35:11Charlie Eccleshare:Nothing sexier. Happy Underground's in the words percentage play, but here we go. Brighton 1, Aston Villa nil. oh ollie watkins did net there though a couple of seasons before that again i think this is another instinct we get wrong you don't always have to go for the most recent season do you

35:29Nick Miller:just because that's the nearest one yeah but the logic was that they were really good that season so that did make it given we didn't know that made some sense yeah we get to go again that's

35:38Charlie Eccleshare:not a problem level three again who has scored for tottenham at the k-com stadium the k-com

35:44Nick Miller:stadium being hull stadium yeah so kane got a bunch uh i think he got four the last day of the season in 16 17 happy with that yep kane 16 17 hull one tottenham seven at the uh quadruple at the

36:04Charlie Eccleshare:at the treble that day harry kane wow level four rarefied air here we go who scored for wigan at white heart lane oh yes i know this paul shana scored in the line one in 0910

36:21Charlie Eccleshare:great to get a thrashing one great to get a true consolation in there let's go for paul shana what year 0910 0910 tottenham nine wigan one goal scorer cometh the hour cometh the man as well paul shana level five don't get it too well right here we go who scored for brentford at the amex

36:45Nick Miller:well again tony is i hate to use that expression you know i do but um

36:52Charlie Eccleshare:feels a bit more umbermo-y that game i don't know why they came up in they came up 21-22

36:58Nick Miller:that was their first season and 22-23 they they you know beat city away they were good on the road they finished in the top half that season and that was the season where tony and burmo

37:10Charlie Eccleshare:bagged the most together, right?

37:13Nick Miller:Yes, I would have thought so. I think so. Yeah, because...

37:15Charlie Eccleshare:22-23.

37:16Nick Miller:Yeah, 22-23.

37:18Charlie Eccleshare:And we're going to go for Tony over in Burma. You know how this is going to pan out.

37:22Nick Miller:Yeah, let's do that. Say it. Say the words. Let's do it.

37:24Charlie Eccleshare:Right, let's do it. 22-23. Brighton 3. Brentford 3. There we go. Goal scorers for the Bs. Pontus Janssen. Ethan Pinnock. And Ivan Tony! Ha ha ha! Level six. Dave who?

37:45Adam Hurrey:Hope you're not doing anything better at this moment, Dave. Don't worry about it.

37:48Charlie Eccleshare:Yep. Here we go. Level six. Who scored for Ipswich at St. James's? Now, we can't have last season, remember, so we're going back to the early days. Could be Marcus. They probably didn't net in 94, 95, did they? Yeah, so Stuart would be. Could have done. Yeah, so what was that? 0-0-0-1?

38:06Nick Miller:Yeah, 0-0-0-1.

38:07Charlie Eccleshare:Happy with that, Nick? Yes, yes, yes. Scored enough that season for it to be viable. Let's do it. Marcus Stewart, 0-0-0-1. Newcastle, 2. Ipswich, 1. Goal score after 13 minutes. Marcus Stewart. Yes. This is extraordinary. A breakthrough. Level 7. The floodgates have opened. Who has scored for Sheffield Wednesday at Pride Park?

38:35Nick Miller:Oh. Now. I mean, Benito Carbone in 97-98, he had a really good season. Carbone even.

38:43Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I like it. I like that combination a lot. 97-98 is exactly where I'm zoning on. I'm sure Wednesday got relegated in 99-2000, didn't they? Yeah. But Derby would still be knocking then.

38:54Nick Miller:Derby were good 97-98, but they had a bad spell as well that season. Let's hope it coincided. Yeah, exactly. Hopefully it's after they were flying high in around November.

39:05Charlie Eccleshare:I don't want to play this card again, Nick, but I have put together a compilation of Benito Carboni Premier League wonder goals before and I don't remember him scoring at Derby. That's all.

39:16Nick Miller:But it wouldn't have to be a wonder goal.

39:17Charlie Eccleshare:No, true. But he had an insane proportion of wonder goals to his total. So I'd be amazed if I hadn't looked at the goal.

39:24Nick Miller:Could be Di Canio from around that period.

39:27Charlie Eccleshare:I don't mind getting this one wrong.

39:29Adam Hurrey:We don't want to level eight. If we go too far, it'll be the old Olympic gold medal scenario. Where do you go after that? When you've achieved it all.

39:37Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, for all sorts of reasons, you might be right. But let's go for it. Let's go for Benito Carboni, 97-98 at Pride Park. Hang on. Was Pride Park open in 97-98?

39:46Adam Hurrey:Yeah, yeah.

39:47Charlie Eccleshare:It was 96, I think. 95-96. Heart skipped a beat then.

39:51Nick Miller:No, 97-98, I think, was its first season.

39:53Charlie Eccleshare:Derby three. Sheffield Wednesday, nil.

39:57Nick Miller:I was in there. Good period.

39:59Charlie Eccleshare:I can confirm that Benito Carboni has not scored at Pride Park for Sheffield Wednesday in any season. Nor did Paolo Di Canio. so let's not be kicking ourselves.

40:07Nick Miller:Level 7.

40:10Charlie Eccleshare:Tremendous work from both of you. We should be proud.

40:12Nick Miller:Yeah, good process, boys.

40:13Charlie Eccleshare:That's the standard. That is the standard. Right, let's move back to the adjudication panel. This is superb. It came from Liam, and it is quite simply Larry David's voice in Turkish broadcaster's Champions League commentary.

40:36Nick Miller:Goal! Goal, goal, goal, goal, goal! Can't he much?

40:43Adam Hurrey:Can't he much? We should get it! Sasha Boy! It gets better as it goes on, Nick. He's superb. Sasha Boy at the end is sensational.

40:53Nick Miller:Nick, how long until you're interviewing this guy?

40:58Adam Hurrey:I think it's better that whoever sent that in hasn't edited the theme tune at the end of it because that would have been... You're kind of waiting for it, so I think it's probably better that it didn't come.

41:10Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, that would be superb. Yeah, tremendous observation from Liam. Zach writes in next, Charlie, and says, with all the talk of the 3pm blackout being scrapped sooner rather than later, there seems to be a presumption that it'll still remain as a low-level slot for Premier League matches, say Brighton versus Fulham. But is that the case? Surely a prime-time slot on a prime day of the week. So why shouldn't it take some of the bigger matches? Ultimately, where will Saturday 3pm fall in the time slot hierarchy if the blackout is scrapped? That's a really good question. I feel like it would be treated ultimately with the respect it deserves and be given a big game.

41:45Nick Miller:These things are just driven by who's going to be watching where it's going to reach the most people. So that depends a little bit on things like time zones as well in other countries. But obviously, Sunday 4.30 is when most people are settling down.

41:58Charlie Eccleshare:They'll be out shopping at Saturday at 3pm when they dump down Argos. John Lewis!

42:03Nick Miller:Saturday at three? I mean, yeah, I guess maybe it's like a little early. And Saturdays are slightly different to Sundays. But yeah, it's a decent slot, you would have thought.

42:15Charlie Eccleshare:It would be very strange, Nick, wouldn't it? For like, I don't know, Liverpool Arsenal on a Saturday 3pm proper bells and whistles broadcast when it really shouldn't be. It would take a long time for us to get used to it. But I don't think the broadcasters would have much compunction about doing it, would they?

42:31Adam Hurrey:no but would this I mean is the theory that they would it would then it would then clear out the other the other 3 pms though it's not like they would they they would have Liverpool Arsenal on at 3 p.m on Saturday but no no other games will be broadcast at that stage surely not oh I I think

42:48Charlie Eccleshare:I think Pandora's box be well open all the other games will be available on sort of random channels but that would be the I don't think they would have any issue with putting like a flagship game on at that time but um yeah it would feel very strange for a while um uncertain times at the moment charlie so many things going on in the world that confuse us and misinformation going around so it's no wonder that there's been a rise in explainer journalism recently you can't move for explainers and the bbc have done an explainer on the phrase losing the dressing room which i really enjoyed obviously it sets its stall out really really early and the phrase losing the dressing room now holds a regular place in modern football's lexicon, the game's ominous code for a manager sliding into trouble.

43:29Charlie Eccleshare:But what can lead someone to lose the dressing room and can a manager ever find it again once it's lost? And this article is broken down into sections by Phil McNulty and the first section is, what does losing the dressing room mean? And it's great because he goes and gets an expert's opinion. So he goes and asks Danny Murphy and Danny Murphy says, I take it as meaning when groups of players start questioning the manager's ability. It normally comes when you're losing cheers mate good to have it confirmed this is this is great i really enjoy

43:56Nick Miller:this i guess my only thing was is like how ambiguous is it as an expression like a lot of football jargon and idioms are quite vague and most of us kind of in agreement on what this means

44:09Charlie Eccleshare:it reminds me nick that this phrase often comes up with um we talked about this phenomenon recently on this pod it annoys us when non-football fans question sayings in football and treat them too literally. And you hear it a lot. How can a manager lose a dressing room? Where's it gone? And it's like, oh, shut up. So this is probably why this sort of explainer exists. But the next section asks, how quickly can a dressing room be lost? So Danny Murphy is consulted again, Nick. He says it can happen after a few bad results and performances when you feel like you're really struggling, getting beaten heavily, not competing in games.

44:40Charlie Eccleshare:So maybe a month. We're definitely in the territory of this is the sort of thing we would talk about. This is great.

44:47Adam Hurrey:I can picture that after the second or third question for this Danny Murphy just kind of peering out the side of his eye at the report saying what the fuck are you asking me this for

44:57Nick Miller:maybe a month is so nothing screams yeah I'm done with this a month I don't know

45:04Charlie Eccleshare:a few weeks to be fair he did clarify he says three or four games which is about a month so yeah I suppose yeah it could be about three or four games the final section Charlie asks can a manager recover a lost dressing room Chris Sutton says I think pretty much once it's gone it's gone

45:21Nick Miller:well this is a pertinent question I remember when covering Spurs and Potch when it was all sort of going to shit and we kind of looked at whether once it goes that you can sort of retrieve it if that's possible um and there aren't many examples where where that does happen Danny

45:38Charlie Eccleshare:Murphy disagrees Nick because he says a manager can get it back but it's rare it's the exception

45:42Adam Hurrey:rather than the rule oh there you go yeah so so charlie are you saying the athletic did this this kind of article in around 2019 20 and then the bbc are doing it now okay interesting interesting i didn't know i didn't know the athletic had done this one fair enough wonder if there's any common themes or anything that links those two things i don't know a common thread a common

46:07Nick Miller:Yeah, it wasn't as forensic as this.

46:11Charlie Eccleshare:Next up, Charlie, I'm always slightly confused by Brazil's enthusiasm for Formula One. I don't know why I should be confused. They've got roads, they've got cars and presumably they've got drivers as well. But it seems they've got a disproportionate enthusiasm for Formula One. But it's reached its peak because joining the pantheon of curiously named Brazilian footballers is 17-year-old international forward Raikkonen. that's amazing born in july 2008 nick uh eight months and 22 days after kimmy raikkonen had won the brazilian gampree to win the 2007 driver's championship wow eight months and 20 that's a that's suspicious that's a two randy petrol heads there

46:57Charlie Eccleshare:obviously it's spelled absurdly r-a-y-k-o-n-n-e-n because that is the brazilian way of doing things. Raikkonen! Kimi Raikkonen! For God's sake! That's so good. Oh, well, presumably we'll see him in the Premier League at some point. Now, I love these little full circle moments for the podcast. Last week, we were talking about the threshold for fans to request a manager gives them a wave, and what sort of game state this situation would be in. After much discussion, Nick, Dave Walker pondered, was Fergie ever asked to give the Manchester United fans a wave at Old Trafford? Would this be something he would ever have indulged in his pomp?

47:37Charlie Eccleshare:Between the three of us, we basically said, no, I can't see him doing it. Craig writes in, he says, I can't find any evidence of it annoyingly, but I'm 100 % sure it was reported that Fergie answered the United fans' call at 4-2 up against Everton in April 2012. How could you possibly remember this and not have the evidence? But then he found Danny Taylor's Guardian match report, where it says, at 4-2, the home fans are going through their victory songs. Sir Alex Ferguson was waving at the Stretford end, and United were in position to be crowned at the home of Manchester City. and in the process subject their neighbours and nearest rivals to the most excruciating ordeal.

48:07Charlie Eccleshare:So this would have put United in the driving seat for the title at that point. So perhaps that's why they were, you know, feeling so giddy and confident. Let's hear that moment itself. Just a point ahead of Liverpool.

48:21Adam Hurrey:We'll play Asperom at Anfield this afternoon.

48:34Charlie Eccleshare:and then of course Charlie within about 10-15 minutes it was 4-4 so there you go what a what a great case study for this a man we thought was unlikely to have ever done it then he did it and completely cursed his team in the process the hubris yeah

48:50Nick Miller:I mean nowadays that would have been leapt on wouldn't it that there'd be so much made of that of the kind of, was this the moment when, you know, the arrogance of Man United, that's what cost them ultimately.

49:02Charlie Eccleshare:If they had held on in that game, Nick, it would have put them five points clear with three games to go or admittedly having to play Manchester City still. Could this have been the turning point in that infamous title race? We all focus on the Aguero moment, but was the actual moment where the United fans asked Fergie to give them a wave, the moment where it all fell uncharacteristically apart?

49:21Adam Hurrey:Everything could have changed at that point. Fergie could have, if they won the league that season, if they could have retired then, maybe they would have picked someone different to replace him. What an extraordinary thing. That's a fine moment.

49:31Charlie Eccleshare:Anyway, speaking of totemic figures, bathing in hubris, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

49:50Adam Hurrey:Ford Super Sunday.

49:54Charlie Eccleshare:Just one item for you this time came from Giles Scary. Finally, a follow-up to the infamous Richard Keyes interview with Mariah Carey in 1990. We've all enjoyed that at various moments, and which I say every week. But Giles Scary unearthed this. It's an interview by Richard Keyes with Jennifer Rush on TVAM in 1987. Very similar vibe, but it's the gentle probing of this questioning that I really enjoy. But you're used to traveling, aren't you? Somebody told me you traveled for something like 360 days last year.

50:27Nick Miller:I spend most of my time in hotel rooms and traveling in airports, but I like it.

50:30Adam Hurrey:It's part of my job, and it's a very important part of the job, because if you don't like to do it, then it won't get anywhere.

50:36Charlie Eccleshare:Was that the reason for the single, the only way you could communicate with this man, Steve, of yours? Just writing a song.

50:41Nick Miller:That's probably it, but I didn't even think about it that way.

50:44Charlie Eccleshare:Is it a little bit difficult, though, to carry on some sort of normal relationship like this with Steve? You're never at home, are you?

50:49Adam Hurrey:um yeah but he comes with me as often as he can and uh he started as a bass player anyway so we're both musicians so he understands that you have to travel a lot and our phone bills are pretty bad

51:00Charlie Eccleshare:they're very bad but you can afford that now can't you yeah you're a very lucky girl

51:07Adam Hurrey:probably yeah

51:12Charlie Eccleshare:if we could just summarize this conversation charlie it's basically how's your relationship going. Bit of a struggle, isn't it? It's falling apart, isn't it, Jennifer? Anyway, how much money have you got?

51:24Nick Miller:Never at home, are you, Jennifer? You're a lucky girl. Money's not an issue.

51:28Charlie Eccleshare:You're a lucky girl. Millionaire-ess, for God's sake. That's such a late 80s way of expressing it.

51:35Nick Miller:Every question is just laced with that. It's like, I don't know, talking to a really judgy family friend or something. It's like, oh yeah, that's what you're doing, isn't it?

51:45Charlie Eccleshare:Doing media studies, are you?

51:46Nick Miller:That's not a real degree, is it? Yeah, exactly. What do they, you have to pay to do that, do you? Well, they let anyone in now, won't they?

51:55Charlie Eccleshare:Your 80s Keezy's very good, actually. For some reason, somehow in your voice, you managed to get the kind of sort of low-quality TV sound in there. It's fantastic. Same audience as he got with Mariah Carey, Nick, the kind of jet-lagged, don't really want to be there, I will humour this for as long as I humanly can from Jennifer Rush.

52:13Adam Hurrey:Yeah, very much the kind of who is this man look on her face. and why is he wearing such brightly coloured knitwear?

52:20Nick Miller:Though to give him his due, she does acknowledge that it's quite a perceptive remark he makes about it and that's why you had to write the song, because you don't talk to her.

52:29Charlie Eccleshare:I will need a credit for that on the album.

52:33Adam Hurrey:It all stuck to turn slightly when he started talking about the cost of her phone bill. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

52:39Charlie Eccleshare:Too much information, but there you go. Lovely stuff from Keezy. Thanks to you, Nick Miller. Thank you. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshire. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Thursday with your Mesut Harlan Dicks. See you then.

53:16Adam Hurrey:and the ESPN app.