Mowbray vs Brotherton, goalkeepers worth 12 points & Keith Andrews in the building

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1:55I say, it's amazing. He does it time and time and time again. Crank up the music. Charge a glass. This nation is going to dance all night.

2:08Charlie Eccleshare:The commentator's names in 14th century castles saga deepens. Match of the day's intro editors do the right thing. Gigi Donnarumma gets the ultimate punditry seal of goalkeeping approval. A mortifying footballer's names in things moment. Scott Parker on rearguard actions. Musical MLS commentary, Alan Shearer breaks rank on blind rankings, Keith Andrews and his building, Big Baseball Men, and Richard Keyes outdoing Roy Keane in the Old Trafford soul-searching stakes. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts, this is Football Clichés.

2:46Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry, this is the Adjudication Panel And joining me is Charlie Eccleshare. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Alongside you is David Walker. How are you? I'm very good. You were in Cardiff this weekend, I understand. Well... Some jolly, was it? I was passing through Cardiff on the train. I was in Swansea, actually, but did take the opportunity whilst in Cardiff, on the Cardiff platform for 30 seconds to promote the upcoming live show. I didn't realise how few tickets there were left, actually, until you updated me. Yeah, some ham-fisted promo from you, looking a little desperate.

3:22Charlie Eccleshare:But no, no desperation at all. It may well be sold out by now. Not many tickets left at all. Keen for some post-show pub suggestions from the Cardiffians, please. If it's left up to me, it will be a Weatherspoons. The one in Bristol last year had its own whispering gallery, Dave, so they're not always bad shout. No, they're often quite interesting buildings, aren't they? But we've had two shouts, I think, in response to my request. One is a Wetherspoons and the other one is some sort of independent brew house. So we'll see. Yeah, our listenership is very brew house, isn't it? If you think about it.

3:56Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, go to tickets.footballcliches.com if you want to join us on tour in October in Brighton, Cardiff, Hackney Empire in London, Birmingham, Dublin and Manchester. Leeds and Glasgow sold out. We've been discussing the live show and our little plan for it. And I'm very excited indeed. Right, adjudication panel time. You'll remember last week a listener was at a family fun day at Framlingham Castle, where one of the jousting knights, presumably a drama student, was Sir Guy of Mowbray. We found that very entertaining. We thought it might be a coincidence of some kind. Josh Danker writes in, Dave, and says, I particularly enjoyed listening to the piece on Sir Guy of Mowbray, the knight from Framlingham Castle, and whether or not this was based on the commentator.

4:39Charlie Eccleshare:My mum used to work at English Heritage, and whilst playing this to her, she produced the Framlingham Castle guidebook. She confirmed that the Mowbray family did in fact own Framlingham Castle, although the name Guy is just the name of the performer. What is most notable, however, is that the Mowbray family did in fact inherit Framlingham from none other than the Brotherton family in the late 14th century. Is there some commentator merry-go-round at Framlingham? A mind-blowing discovery and one to maybe revisit on the next part. Indeed! Dave, this is great! What? How can that be true? That's amazing.

5:12Charlie Eccleshare:It goes even further, Charlie. George H also wrote in and said, the high school I went to in Framlingham has houses named after the families who owned the castle. So Mowbray versus Brotherton was, and I guess still is, a regular fixture in house football. That's class. With commentary and everything. We need to let these guys know about this. Absolutely. It's got a five-minute football focus feature written all over it. 100%, yeah. Yeah, and they can do a half of commentary each on the game. Wow. Wow. Aristocratic background of Guy Mowbray and Simon Brotherton. The fact that we joked about Brotherton as well.

5:45Charlie Eccleshare:That was the name, yeah. Yeah, always the go-to. More feedback. Fraser Thomas, Charlies, can clarify the birth date of the term WAGS and save the bacon for the scriptwriters of Saipan, in which Roy Keane's wife bemoans the characterisation. Fraser Thomas sent me a Telegraph article from 2002 in which England's WAGS, the wives and girlfriends of the World Cup players, returned to Britain after five days of bonding in Dubai. they had a pre-World Cup camp, the Wax, in 2002. Yeah, this is one of those where you're like, you're proved wrong, but you're like, but did you definitely know this? Because, yeah, I don't know.

6:21I'm not sure. Did the writers know about this early genesis for sure?

6:27Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know. But if they did, fair play. They're off the hook. That's the main thing. Yeah. I was just distracted by the byline for this Telegraph piece, Dave, by Topaz Amor. What a name. Yeah, listen, fair play. That's a hell of a name. I mean, the WAGs were a little bit ahead of the curve there as well, getting over to Dubai in 2002. Feels like that's quite early for the current sort of Dubai era. Pre-explosion, yeah. Warm weather training. Love it. We didn't get this wrong, though. As pointed out by the intrepid David Humphreys, this, to recap, was the Match of the Day intro this season.

7:09Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome to Match of the Dead. But following last week's special report on the scandal of them using Clive Tilsley's ITV commentary for Wayne Rooney's goal against Arsenal in 2002, this was the Match of the Day intro this weekend. What a freak! Oh, look at that! Absolutely phenomenal! Rooney, up on! Welcome to Match of the Dead. Quietly snipped it out, Dave. It's gone. Wow. I'm not sure how I feel about it, though, actually. How proud should we be? Yeah. We've made quite the impact there. Are you happy now? It's that sort of feeling, isn't it? I hope no one's got in trouble off the back of this.

7:47Charlie Eccleshare:Obviously, I hope that. But I remain proud that we police this sort of thing. It's important. Charlie, no one seemed to share my enthusiasm for this. And I don't care about that. Yeah, I'm surprised given my relative lack of enthusiasm. It wasn't like there was a big bandwagon. but you know. And they've not replaced it with another goal though. They've just snipped it out which is interesting. But I mean I want to know more about this. We need match of the day insiders to come forward because what's the process here? How high did this go? Yeah. I want a statement from the BBC themselves. Yeah.

8:21I wonder how high it even did go. It might even be one of those things where whoever you know someone might have been like oh no you know this will barely make a ripple no one's going to notice this. Tim Davey? Naive that would have been.

8:31Charlie Eccleshare:I feel for Clive Tildesley in all this. to be honest. How must Clive Tilsley feel? Erased from history. In a way, I know it's like, it's a weird thing and we were right to point it out, but I don't mind them having the ITV thing in there. I think it's quite nice for them to subtly nod to those years where they didn't have it. The Premiership era. Exactly, yeah. Not their nod to give as far as I'm concerned. Right, over to the weekend's action, Charlie. An astonishing misuse of this construction. TNT Sports tweeted, Martin Zubamendi gets his brace. A brilliant header by the Spaniard an Arsenal lead 3-0.

9:04Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, there are two things wrong with this. Obviously, he is not an owner of a brace. He's one of his unlikely scorer of a brace. And then, of course, there's no such thing as getting his brace anyway, is there? Braces are not there to be got. It's such a weird thing because I always look to try and understand where someone might be coming from with this kind of thing. But there are so many different ways of saying this. There's no, it's not like there's a space issue. It's not like you're avoiding repetition. Maybe there'd been a string of tweets before where there were things that they wanted to avoid.

9:36But yeah, it's very odd. I mean, there is a world in which a striker has been desperately trying to get a second goal. Maybe his first goal is from the penalty. He's never scored a brace before, maybe. Yes, first brace, finally. But yeah, it's just not something you would ever say.

9:54Charlie Eccleshare:Alexander Ward writes in, Dave, and says you can get your goal and you can get your hat-trick, but you can't get your brace. I think that's a fair summary of the situation, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Because when you get a brace, assuming there's enough time left in the game, you're on a hat-trick. And if you end up with a brace, you've got the brace, you've bagged the brace. But it's not really anything to be celebrated in and of itself. Yeah, it's a means to an end. Spot on. It's a provisional state, the brace. No one ever aims to score a brace. Oh, I dream of scoring a brace in a World Cup final.

10:25Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe it's a Dan did. I don't know. This next one comes from Dave O 'Leary, who was presumably listening to his old team Aston Villa against Everton on 5 Live, Stephen Warnock on co-coms with no disrespect to passive prefixes. Block from McGinn, loops onto the roof of the net behind for another corner. Yeah, superb John McGinn. Brilliant from Grealish initially just to draw a couple of Aston players towards him to allow that space for Garner to get the shot in. How does this happen? But the thing about it, Charlie, as jarring as it felt, talking of Aston defenders, it felt very sort of 1880s. It's a little like a newspaper report.

11:02I wonder as well, like, I bet there'll be other listeners who, like me, had no idea until they heard of someone. I remember someone I knew going to Aston University, and I didn't want to, like, reveal my ignorance, but I was kind of like, oh, right, okay. But, like, otherwise, you just think, like, Aston Villa. It's just like a thing in and of it. You never would break it down in that way. But, yeah, very odd to hear it.

11:22Charlie Eccleshare:It does sound ignorant, Dave, but everyone's got to go through that moment in their lives when they realise that, yes, indeed, Aston is in Birmingham. Yeah, it's weird how jarring that does sound. But it's also, I guess it's sort of surprising that that doesn't slip out more often here and there. I don't think I've ever heard it ever before. Yeah, we were talking about this on the pod originally, about how Astrid are simply so disproportionately undefined by their prefix, more so than any other club. It is mad, but there you go. Stephen Warnock doing his best to bring it into the equation. Next up, this came from Trinidad Jazz.

11:55Charlie Eccleshare:Gigi Donnarumma's impressive debut for Manchester City, as commented on by Danny Murphy in the most inevitable way. It's a phenomenal save. And exactly why they decided to bring him in, because he is more experienced than Trafford. He's got more presence. I think a brilliant goalkeeper can be the difference, you know, eight, nine, ten points, even in a season. Yeah. It's the listing of the points as well, Charlie. You've got to commit to a number if you're doing this. It's also, and I've spoken about this before, but it's the suggestion this is like an original you know that is one of my biggest but it's like you know for me you know this will sound crazy but a good goalkeeper's worth so many but it's like yeah that has been said a gazillion times before it has dave but i put it to you that this is the most specific sounding you know data backed sounding claim that has never actually been backed up with data like it sounds like something that really has been researched and especially to put a specific number on it as well.

12:50Charlie Eccleshare:I find it fascinating. Who first came up with this? But also the fact that, you know, if you don't suggest that they'll win you a points tally that's a multiple of three, you're putting some draws in there as well. Why not? That would be a really classy way of doing it. Which is totally legitimate. Well, it's seven points a season, I reckon. I mean, it was definitely a Czech thing. It was said about Czech. I feel like it might have been said about Schmeichel as well. I feel like that might have been the first for it to have been said of and then Cech, I feel like, more entered the mainstream. At the end of that clip, you can hear Theo Walcott with a little, yeah.

13:24Charlie Eccleshare:He played with Petr Cech, of course, so he knows. If anybody knows, he does. He played with the post-12 points Petr Cech. Yeah, he probably totted up the points that they won him while he was there. Right, he's done it again, Excalibur. Here is all elite wrestling dynamite. Punch for punch for straw. Tony Storm gets the shot away. Yeah! Come on, I would have hoped for a little bit more of a tune, please, Excalibur. Dave, it's not a bad effort. Slightly more melodic next time, please, Excalibur. But yeah, fair play. Keep going. Good to know that this strand of niche cliches content is still going, Charlie.

13:59Charlie Eccleshare:Meanwhile, Ryan Moen writes in and says, watching a chess video and a football cliches reference comes up. My brother told me I had to send this in. Take the bishop. If queen takes, then white is threatening, mate. So let's castle. Right. And the plan is to complete development. D6. Make the night away.

14:22Charlie Eccleshare:Just the right amount of melody in there. Include it in the canon. Make the night away. That thing there is the perfect example of why it's so hard for me and us to accurately describe to someone who hasn't listened before what we do on this podcast. I know. I was trying to do it again at the weekend. Ken, someone was asking me, I was playing Five Aside on Friday night and someone went for a pint afterwards and some of the guys had sort of overheard that I did this podcast. And I was trying to, it's quite an awkward thing to explain anyway. I was trying to explain that, I just can't do it. I mean, how possibly could I say, well, you know, the thing we did the other day, actually, we listened to some guy playing chess and the way that he said takes the night away.

15:04Charlie Eccleshare:The thing is, I don't want to lean into the, too much into the weirdness and the in jokes. I want this to be a very accessible podcast, but I think we should have a sprinkling of this sort of stuff. but I refuse to keep explaining it every single time. Go back and listen to the old episodes. Find out yourself. Time for footballers' names and things. Actually, I want to start with a frankly humiliating story. There was an interview by Adam Bate for Sky with the EFL character Steve Evans, who has lost six stone recently. You know, just for health reasons, basically. He wants to get himself fit and ready for work again.

15:35Charlie Eccleshare:And interesting interview. And then tangentially, I was on my peloton on Saturday morning, cycling away. And I glanced at the leaderboard for the big climb that I was doing. And up popped to Steve Evans in his 50s from Huddersfield. I thought, I mean, at first I thought, yeah, funny footballers names and things. Pretty run of the mills, very common name. Then I looked at the profile picture and it looked a bit Steve Evans-y. And I'm a novice peloton user, Dave. So basically, I thought it would follow all the other sort of interface customs. If you click on someone's profile photo, it enlarges it, right?

16:12Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah. So then I can have a good look at it and say, well, maybe that is Steve Evans. That would be cool. And that's not what happens. When you click on someone's photo, you high-five them. I high-fived a bloke called Steve Evans just because I thought he was Steve Evans. It's like poking someone on Facebook. Basically. Back in the old days. I undid the high-five, Charlie, as quickly as I'd done it. so I don't know if he noticed it but if there's Steve Evans from Huddersfield listening I'm really sorry mate I'm not trying anything on and did you get any closer by doing that to finding out if it was Steve Evans?

16:45it definitely isn't him obviously I think Steve Evans is older than 50

16:47Charlie Eccleshare:so I haven't actually double checked the age but yeah all roads suggested it's not him but yeah a low point low point of my existence let's move swiftly on this came from PMD a very unexpected footballer's name discussing nutrition and the immune system something like a less hygienic environment or to microbes when we're younger trains our immune system to be better at dealing with allergies so that comes from wonderful and pioneering research by gordon strachan atst george's hospital in south london we're not too love that i love the idea dave of sort of gordon strachan dryly sort of addressing a bunch of students about nutrition and the immune system yeah he'd loved that wouldn't he yeah um andy brassell's voice in things there as well by the way um yeah yeah so that was a nice little bonus for you um finally this came from jeff stewart he says i'm reading hidden prey by john sanford a very serious american detective novel on page 148 i had a laugh out loud moment the cop who'd followed lucas in said hey when i'm talking to you lucas pointed his finger at him and snarled shut the fuck up who's running this clown factory one of the men in plain clothes snapped i am who the fuck are you who the fuck are you john terry i'm the chief of course he's the chief it was a clown chief great stuff don't know if john sanford is a chelsea fan but uh we can find out right next up delighted to confirm that scott parker is back today at times we had to survive we had to survive and today we had to dig and go to places that not many human beings sometimes go to what only scott parker could describe almost getting a clean sheet at home to liverpool like landing on the moon but it's even weird it's the phrasing is even weirder you not often have to go to it's uh very strange uh robert sent this in david said a bit much for me and i have to say i'm agreed with this yeah i mean it's almost like they're navy seals yeah Yeah, it's very on the front line kind of thing.

18:55Special operation. Yeah.

18:57Charlie Eccleshare:A few human beings have had to go. I mean, I guess, you know, the lactic acid that must have been running through them would have been, you know, by some metrics, it probably is true. But yeah, it's hugely overdramatic. They were just booting it down the pitch at one point constantly. It was brilliant to watch, but not quite the limits of human endeavour to me. Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands a virtual private network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi.

19:28Charlie Eccleshare:A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while travelling. Over to the US we go then. This came from Grayson Hoffman with some musical MLS commentary from Atlanta United versus Columbus Crew. Aston in behind the gate here. It's Aston into Gazdag. It's two. charlie love the vibrato here from callum williams on comms but this is perfectly explicable it's musical intonation it's very easily explained because it's one of those situations where a player could shoot and it's almost like a pending situation and then he passes the ball to somebody else and then it the situation moves on and it becomes even more tense so the the intonation makes perfect sense yeah definitely the first one is it's in the anticipation of the big moment that doesn't quite arrive.

20:21It's rare you hear the two-hander quite like that.

20:24Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, so it's actually quite a useful commentary device, Dave. It almost lets the play flow while they commentate over the top of it. Yeah, yeah. It was nicely done. It sounded a little bit like you, actually. Really? I think so. Maybe slightly older you, but you had a similar tone and pitch. Yeah, also reminiscent of Chris Wise's commentary vibrato from a few weeks ago as well, so it's obviously catching on. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches, and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee, and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it.

21:03Charlie Eccleshare:We'll be back very shortly.

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