Panenka-triggered goalkeepers & empty-net warm-up anxieties: The listeners' loves & hates

15:12Charlie Eccleshare:Now, it could be coincidence, but on further inspection, it appears there might be other footballers' names and initials in their fleet registrations. For reference, the G is country of registration, which is in this case, United Kingdom. So that's what the G means. Okay. So they've got G Weyer. Yep. And they've also got G HODL, H-O-D-L. Okay. G. Muller. M-U-L-R. Ginola. What's going on? Really tenuous one here, Nick. G. Ullit. That's good. That's really good. But then there are two mystery ones. The last two in the fleet, Charlie, which are G. Crux and G. Lesso. So G. C-R-U-L-S-O. It is. It's Graham Lesso.

15:55Charlie Eccleshare:And Garth Crux. Crux. well how have they squeezed into the equation

16:02Nick Miller:a mad formation on the plane I don't know

16:05Charlie Eccleshare:maybe they're maybe the company's sort of based in Guernsey or is it Lesseau's jersey isn't it yeah Lesseau's jersey so maybe that's it a bit of a Spurs connection as well there three Spurs players oh of course Jalola Hoddle Crooks Hulit Weyer is Milan Chelsea and Chelsea yeah and Gerd Müller's just really good so maybe that's what it is or the Luxembourg

16:26Nick Miller:tennis player Gilles Müller

16:28Charlie Eccleshare:oh maybe Maybe it is that. Maybe it is. I've looked into this further. They do ferry around Premier League teams for sort of away games. They've taken Palace up to Newcastle, for example, Dave. So that might be the football connection. If you were to one day find yourself in charge of a charter airline service, I think this is the sort of thing you'd do. I think I probably would. You would, wouldn't you? Yeah, I would. So there you go. Footballers' names in plane registrations. Excellent stuff. Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands for Virtual Private Network.

16:59Charlie Eccleshare:It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while travelling. And indeed, this came from Jacob McMaster from Down Under. He says, I was watching the Australia Cup quarterfinal between Avondale FC and Brisbane City on Paramount+. In the 90th minute, Kian Kuba, what a lovely name that was by the way, scored the 6th goal in a 6-2 win for Avondale with a lovely lob over the Brisbane City keeper. But it was what the commentator said following the goal that really caught me off guard.

17:34Fully deserves that goal. It's a wonderful finish. Great ball over the top from Trocheski. Really well weighted. Picked out the run perfectly. The run was timed perfectly. The finish was executed brilliantly.

17:49Nick Miller:Well, he lifted it like an embargo over the goalkeeper there.

17:55Charlie Eccleshare:That, flat out, Nick, is the maddest simile I've ever heard deployed in a football context. Only makes sense to journalists and politicians dealing with arms embargoes and so on.

18:08Nick Miller:With trade embargoes, it's quite timely.

18:10Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I suppose, but is that the go-to? Are they even famously lifted? It's definitely not. embargoes if anything the key thing about embargoes David they're applied not lifted that's the headline in the first place they just they lapse I suppose do they yeah I mean

18:27Nick Miller:you can lift them yeah Trump's lifted embargoes yeah I think it's

18:33Charlie Eccleshare:it's of the moment it's just absolutely mad I think we can all agree on that if you want to try NordVPN for yourself go to nordvpn.com slash cliches and our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan it's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee, and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it. We'll be right back after the break with the listeners' Mesut Harland dicks for August. See you in a bit.

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21:06Oh, look at that! That is wonderful.

21:14Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. We're taking care of the adjudication panel. Now it's time for the main event, the listeners' mes at Harland Dix for August. Your footballing fascinations and irritations. We kick things off with this from Lev Harris. Hello, chaps. My fascination is when a player scores a quote-unquote worldie and their teammate reacts by putting their hands on their head in shock

21:35Nick Miller:and looks back to the bench whilst mouthing the word, Wow. The action itself is a close cousin to the classic head in hands moment, although that action requires the hands to be fully on top of the head with fingers interlaced, whereas the Worldi reaction is more tips of the fingers on the temple. Even though the reaction feels a bit pantomime, I like how in this moment the teammate is playing the part of every fan in the stadium, reacting in sheer disbelief as to what they've just witnessed.

21:59Charlie Eccleshare:Charlie, what really tipped this over Edge for the inclusion was the micro analysis of the finger placement. I thought that was pure cliches. I really enjoyed that aspect of it.

22:07Nick Miller:Yeah, very good. Yeah, these are a nice secondary thing after a great goal that you can then, you know, the reaction of the team. Like I remember Lamella scoring that Rabona at the Emirates for Spurs and Reguilon just goes mad. And it's like, you know, it's a nice additional bit of content.

22:22Charlie Eccleshare:Nick, I always worry that these, you know, especially in the social media age, that these reactions are a little bit confected. But then the other half of my brain likes to think that these are genuine football reactions to seeing a teammate do something, you know, they might have done on the training ground a few times, but you've never seen them in the game. So they're natural, right? They're for real. I think so. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I've seen people do these kind of reactions to just a bit of skill, just like a nutmeg or something. which does feel you know that feels a bit much but yeah they do feel fairly genuine.

22:54They are quite pure I think. I think there are lots of autopilot celebrations nowadays you know the knee slide is ubiquitous and whatever but it's so in the moment that I think it's quite hard to sort of plan it really. I think it is genuine. I think there was a good one last season I think it was the second free kick that Rye scored against Real Madrid Odegaard was standing just off to the side and he did that he was like head hands to head like looking around like he didn't even run away initially he was like stood still like couldn't

23:24Charlie Eccleshare:believe what had happened that's an interesting case study then because that was an incredible free kick Charlie and sort of rightly met by a teammate whose opinion you probably respect in these situations as well we you know with complete disbelief so what is what's the base level for a worldy and I use that phrase you know carefully in this situation to elicit a hands-on head reaction from a teammate.

23:46Nick Miller:It's not just about the quality of the goal. I do think that context is all important. So like in that instance, Declan Rice, who'd barely taken a free kick before for Arsenal, let alone scored one, suddenly scores two in seven minutes against Real Madrid. And that second one, if it is the second one you're talking about, Dave, right? That second one was even better. I think it was. He's definitely one of them. But yeah, either way, it's such a mad, like, what is happening kind of reaction. You know, I think if that's David Beckham scoring that, you're not getting Roberto Carlos doing that probably in quite the same way.

24:16Nick Miller:So there is that element of surprise. With the lamella one, it's kind of like that was his go-to trick and he's only gone and done it in the North London derby. Holy shit. So I think it needs to be spectacular and also a bit of a sort of backstory to it as well.

24:33Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, do you think QPR would do it at 7-1 down? I don't think so. No, perhaps not. No. There is, I do, another example that comes to mind, it's not exactly hand on heads, but this sort of expression on your face, just like complete disbelief. I can't believe that I'm the one that's just done this and teammates as well being happy for him was Oli Watkins against Netherlands in the Euro semifinals. Oh, wow. Okay. Like Watkins scores that and there's a brilliant moment where he's just sort of running to the bench and he's just sort of looking around and his mouth is wide open. His eyes are ablaze and he just doesn't know what to do.

25:09And then all the subs kind of run over And there's this real sort of collective sort of disbelief that this has just happened.

25:16Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, that's a rare one, a sort of self-disbelief, Nick. You don't get that very often. It'd be great to see a player sort of put their own hands on their heads and go, I just don't believe I've just done that. That would be great. But that'd have to be something fluky, maybe. You'd have to back yourself in a genuine football scenario, wouldn't you? You could use that in one of those scenarios where, like, did you actually mean that kind of scenario? Van Basten, maybe? Yeah, maybe, something like that. or like you know someone you've got people saying nah that was definitely a cross but and then you're going no no I meant it look at my reaction I think the peak level of disbelief for seeing a goal be scored in your favour was Bobby Robson when he was managing Barcelona and Ronaldo scored that goal against Copostela which in the sands of time has become slightly slightly overrated in a weird way it's obviously still incredible but it's also what the fuck are Copostela doing but Bobby also just getting up out of his bench with his head in his hands as if he's just witnessed a relative fall off a cliff or something.

26:12Charlie Eccleshare:It's like, this is awful. I can't believe it. Oh, I don't know. There's also like a proud,

26:18Nick Miller:there's sort of like a proud uncle kind of vibe that's quite sweet to it. And again, the context there is so important because he's emerging as this superstar before our eyes. And that's kind of like, wow, like what's he going to do next? How's he doing this? And there's, I think there's possibly an element of that of like Robson kind of going, look, I've been talking about how good this kid is for ages and now he keeps doing this kind of thing.

26:41Charlie Eccleshare:Even he's still astounding me, yeah. You'd be hard-pressed to doubt any sincerity from Bobby Robson at his peak, so maybe that's the clincher. With self-disbelief, I think it's more hand over the mouth. There are a few examples that I can vaguely picture. And they're like, Henri, did Henri do one? It's a bit knowing, but it's like, oh my God, what have I just done? I can picture that. yeah I'm trying to imagine Charlie what goal was it come on

27:10Nick Miller:there's the Dennis Bergkamp one where he covers his mouth oh yeah the Bergkamp one after scoring against Sunderland and actually so that was that celebration was repeated the other day I put to Josh Robinson the missing who scored for six Premier League clubs question that he'd given to us and there was a missing answer I put that to him and after about an hour I sat next to him watching the tennis after about an hour he got it and did that celebration after it was a great moment

27:35Charlie Eccleshare:good to know you're focusing on the job I was.

27:37Nick Miller:He literally, he said, he's like, I'm not here. I'm still not present. I would just look over and he'd have a different player, Premier League player on Wikipedia page, checking his work and be like, fuck, only five. It was amazing. Jesus Christ. And the missing player was?

27:51Charlie Eccleshare:Andros Townsend. Wow, there you go. Hope it'll be from the Wall Street Journal who's listening right now. Right, great star from Lev Harris. Second fascination of football comes from Robert Collins. Hey, guys. My MHD fascination is goalkeepers who, faced with a player attempting a Penenka against them during a shootout, give them a full beam roar of disapproval. The suggestion being the penalty taker has broken some kind of unwritten moral code by doing so. Just last night, we got to enjoy Kasper Schmeichel reprimanding Kyra Almaty's Valery Grumico from his high horse as his Penenka attempt hits the bar.

28:30Charlie Eccleshare:Only for Schmeichel to concede another Penenka two attempts later. Glorious. Yes, I witnessed this live as well, Nick, and it dawned on me at the time that Kasper Schmeichel is the absolute archetype for objecting to being Penenka against, basically. Where does this come from? It must be that Penenkas at one point were considered like a scoundrel's trick, and now, despite them being mainstream, that sort of pattern of behaviour has persisted? Yeah, I mean, Kasper Spichel's sort of like a heritage proper football man, isn't he? But yeah, this came into being in the 72 or 76, well, in the 1970s anyway.

29:08It seemed to be dormant for a long time and then kind of reappear in the 90s. Remember Dwight York scoring one? And it's always that kind of, well, you know, if you score it, then it's cheeky and disrespectful. But if you miss it, then you look like a complete tit. So maybe there's an element of that as well.

29:25Charlie Eccleshare:Well, let's deal with the crux of this matter then, Dave. is it disrespectful? Why should it even be perceived as disrespectful by the goalkeepers union, who, as we know, have their own little sort of moral code? Yeah, and especially nowadays, when there's all manner of different novel penalty techniques, the no-look penalty, that's disrespectful, surely. You're not even looking at the goalkeeper. That one where the penalty taker doesn't take a step and he steps back and just kicks it before the goalkeeper's ready and they go, arguably that's disrespectful because you're not sort of allowing the goalkeeper to prepare themselves.

29:59Charlie Eccleshare:You're absolutely right. Or the old Mickey Quinn penalty where he used to walk back really slowly, then turn around really quickly and then run. You can't do that. That's borderline unsportsmanlike, Charlie, actually, now I think about it. There are at least three types of penalties more disrespectful than the Penenka in theory.

30:14Nick Miller:I think, though, the goalkeepers union might, or some members, might suggest that Kasper Schmeichel is not necessarily representative of their views. I mean, I've mentioned this before, but I've never seen a goalkeeper more likely to complain after pretty much every goal he concedes. There'll be something. And a penalty. He'll always complain about like, the run-up wasn't right or something in that very wide-eyed going to the ref kind of way. I think most people just kind of accept it.

30:38Charlie Eccleshare:That's the sort of behaviour you get from being the offspring of a streets won't forget footballer. Exactly.

30:43Nick Miller:Streets won't forget his complaints to the ref.

30:45Charlie Eccleshare:But you definitely still see this, Dave. And I feel like it's completely baseless. If you challenged a goalkeeper to explain it, I don't think they would be able to. I don't think they would say something like, you know, it's not the done thing. You don't like to see that in football. So I think it is purely learned behaviour. I think it's just in their DNA still. But surely it's going to get to the point where, because Penenka's about as mainstream as they could possibly get now. Because if they became any more common, then people would be missing them more because goalkeepers would be more wise to it.

31:14Charlie Eccleshare:So we're at peak Penenka, I think. So goalkeepers are just going to have to get used to it. Like, it's not that offensive. Yeah, I don't think it is. It's still not that common. Like the sort of really slow wait for the goalkeeper to move. Maybe you're not even looking at the ball. Maybe you're just looking at the goalkeeper penalty. Like that is becoming more and more common. It's more of an accepted, trusted technique. So Penenka's are still a bit novel. But what is becoming slightly more common in shootouts, in tournaments, are goalkeepers taking penalties as part of the first five. When are we going to get a goalkeeper who does a Penenka to another keeper?

31:50Charlie Eccleshare:Et tu Oh wow

31:52Nick Miller:That would be amazing Oh my god

31:56Charlie Eccleshare:A real schism In the goalkeepers union That would cause Because they always Blast them don't they They always just Absolutely hammer the ball At some point Surely someone's going to go You know what I'm just going to go for it There must have been A goalkeeper Penninga Oh wow Need to find out Brilliant Thank you Robert Collins Right our final Fascination for this month Comes from Matt From Birmingham My football fascination Is the direction the managers are looking in the very split second before a post-match interview begins now for me there's three options the first of which which in my view is the most disrespectful is when managers are looking right as if they're going looking further down the tunnel for something that is just more interesting than the interview they're about to do I don't like it the second one is when they're looking directly at the interviewer once it begins and for me I don't mind that I think that's okay um although i think in some circumstances it can be a little bit intimidating uh sort of depending on the mood of the game really the third one which i think is the correct way is when managers are looking just slightly downwards towards the floor and then just as the interviewer starts to speak their head just just pops up at the at the very last second uh for me i think that feels a little bit about it's uh about right for me but uh be glad of your thoughts on that one right charlie obviously i love the uh granular analysis that's gone into it but i love how he's arrived at the most acceptable place for a manager to be looking just before he's asked the

33:24Nick Miller:first question in a post-match interview madness yeah i i really like i mean i'm just very much picturing ang who i know always like didn't give loads of eye contact with interviews but that's so him to be able to and then to look up just at the moment of it starting the ang the ang thing so notable that my girlfriend commented on it at one point last season, I think, which she wouldn't normally take interest in football, but she was sitting there watching it and just sort of glanced up and she was, why is he looking at the floor? It's so rude. It's just who he is, mate.

33:56Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, has a manager ever had the first second of their post-match interviews and analysed more than Ange Postacoglu, Nick? And to what extent do you think that looking at the floor is rude? There's a bit of soul searching about it, right? I mean, it's like looking for answers on the floor. Almost like an actor bring themselves into the scene as they focus on something on the floor, look up, and then they're in the scene kind of thing. But it is a little bit like very mild, like naughty schoolboy being questioned about something. And it's like, don't look at the floor. Don't look at the floor.

34:26Look at me. Look at me. As the interviewer then sort of grills them.

34:31Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, Nick's kind of made me realise that this probably is quite just procedural. Like it's like, and now we're on air. So it's like that first sort of utterance of their name by the interview is actually the realisation they are now rolling. So maybe they actually have to look up. Maybe there's a really boring explanation for this. Yeah. And we only see the shot of the manager. But behind the camera, there's probably lots going on. It's not like sometimes it might just be like two people in two people plus a cameraman in a room. But quite often they might be in a tunnel and there might be other people waiting.

35:01And there's like players might be walking past in the background. It's sort of there is quite a lot of distractions. She's flying past the camera. Yeah, yeah. But, like, for the interviewer, I've done a couple of post-match interviews, like, years ago. Like, just literally when there was no one else to do it. And, like, I think I did Claude Puel in an FA Cup tie once at Peterborough. And you sort of don't, well, I didn't anyway. I don't really want them to be, like, staring into my soul for the whole thing.

35:30Nick Miller:No, it's both.

35:31Charlie Eccleshare:Fair enough. I'm intrigued by the first option that Matt has given here, Charlie. the looking down the tunnel option, which is basically like, I can understand this because it's footballing body language. You're essentially referencing the place where the action has happened and you'll nod towards it as the interview goes on. It's a cousin of the thumb over the shoulder scenario that reporters love to do. So something's going to happen there. So there's definitely some sort of innate body language going on there.

35:59Nick Miller:Maybe, yeah. So it helps them remember what happened by looking at the spot where it did.

36:06Charlie Eccleshare:On that note, Charlie, someone sent me your Instagram story from the other day when you were on CBS previewing the US Open and you had Flushing Meadows behind you. And I thought, at what point did Charlie thumb towards the stadium? Please tell me you did it.

36:20Nick Miller:I'm sure, I'm almost certain I did. I mean, I've been spotted doing that at other sports venues and I'm not sure the extent to which I'm doing it knowingly or it's just complete muscle memory or like this instinct takes over. Prolific thumbsman. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

36:36Charlie Eccleshare:It's good to know. Good to know that you're on script anyway. But I don't know. I mean, the looking the interviewer straight in the eyes option, Nick, is that passive aggressive? Again, I do think of Ange. And if Ange is looking at you, you've done something wrong, right? Bit too intense, really. If you're staring at the interviewer from even before they start talking, that does feel quite intense and a little bit sort of alpha, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose it does. You know, I'm in charge here, son. You with your silly little microphone. Imagine Pep just staring you out from half a metre away. He does a sort of thing where he's kind of half turned away and he's almost looking at you out of the side of his eye.

37:17Like he's kind of... Sideways look. Yeah, a little bit. Obviously, he would rather be absolutely anywhere else other than doing this. But there is a sort of, I don't know, slight side eye element to his.

37:30Nick Miller:I know there are some managers been told that before we'll be like, come on, come on, come on. It's like, let's get this done sort of thing. And then, you know, so that's the context in which you're then going into an interview with someone who clearly is like, come on, I just want to get this over with.

37:42Charlie Eccleshare:Such is the lack of eye contact in various football interviews of any kind, pre-match or post-match, Charlie. I often find myself just waiting for them to lock eyes. I think, are you actually going to look at the interview at any stage? Like, are you actually going to address the idea that you're talking to another human being rather than just, you know, reeling off your sort of post-match sentiments and just getting away from things? I'm always quite comforted when they finally do acknowledge them with their eyes. OK, that's it. A connection has been made.

38:08Nick Miller:They are vaguely present for this.

38:09Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, it's good to hear. Yeah, Matt enjoyed that one. Thank you. Right, we'll take a short break. We'll be back very shortly with the listeners' irritations.

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39:56Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

40:03Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. A reminder of Dreamland, the premium Football Clichés experience. For just£5.99 a month, you can sign up for ad-free listening of all of our episodes, plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive new show. Other perks as well. Episode six of Dreamland is out this week as well. So sign up in time for that. Dreamland.footballcliches.com. Right. We've heard your fascinations for this month. It's time for your irritations. Always the fun bit. The first one comes from listener Michael Cox. Hi, Adam. My football dislike is shooting into an open goal in a pre-match warm up situation.

40:42So what I mean by that is everyone's ready to go. You say, let's go and have a warm up. you dribble the ball onto the pitch there's no goalkeeper there you feel obliged to shoot for goal and of course people are watching you but there's no good option in this situation you can't go for the corner because there's a danger you'll miss an open goal look like an idiot and have to run after the ball that's really embarrassing but if you just go for like a lofted shot down the middle one it looks really visually bad and two it kind of looks like you've bottled it and weirdly I find this quite a pressurised situation

41:15Charlie Eccleshare:i hope you know what i mean charlie the flawless logic of this the incisiveness of its you know observation has grown on me but i was so distracted in its early stages by what feels like michael cox doing an impression of somebody doing a listener's mhd

41:32Nick Miller:hi adam but um yeah i can see that but i i think he's definitely on to something definitely and i i i end up doing yeah because you you kind of have to look quite casual doing it because obviously if you like leather the ball it's like yeah what are you doing you can't and empty girl yeah and if you just don't have not having a keeper there means it's very hard to have any motivation to do that so i do end up doing a kind of like quite casual looking rolled effort which is essentially pointless yeah you're in danger of like looking a bit like michael owen doing the volleys at that hapless goalkeeper you know just smashing it from six yards and wheeling away when there's no keeper there in the warm-up thing i i find quite stressful about this is the level of power you have to put into it because i i only play five-a-side and then the five-a-side court i play at the wall is immediately behind the goal if you hit it with enough force it'll hit the wall and come back out again and hopefully come back straight to you but if you don't hit it with enough force it'll just stay in the goal and those five-a-side goals they're kind of quite awkward to get the ball out of sometimes because of the height of the crossbar and then if you if you've got as in my regular five-a-side game we We often have a few kind of ringers to make up the numbers.

42:46People you've never met before, you obviously don't want to make a tit of yourself in front of them. So you're left with quite a delicate balance to strike there. You have to hit it with enough power for the ball to bounce out of you and you're not left with the awkward moment of trying to get the ball out of the goal. But if you go for too much power, then obviously you risk missing it and making yourself look like a complete idiot. I take it from this, Nick, that you often turn up 5-10 minutes early and you're the first one there. with the ball. Actually, I don't. Which is the best bit, by the way.

43:15Charlie Eccleshare:Just to be clear, in a Power League pitch with a goal to yourself is the best bit. Do not have any illusions about this. I'm notorious for being like three or four minutes late, not like massively late, but enough to be irritating. So, yeah. What do you do, Adam, then in that scenario when you're on the pitch on your own? Okay, so yeah, Nick has perfectly outlined the dilemma I face quite a lot, which is factoring in all the things that Michael Cox has talked about here. I don't go for power. I don't go for placement. What I try and do is the crossbar challenge. So I'll go through the gates, dribble a few steps forward, and then from around about the halfway line, try and ping the ball onto the bar.

43:53Charlie Eccleshare:Invariably, it will land just over the bar and then nestle in the back of the net. And then I'm forced to walk the lonely walk to go and get it. And everyone's just like, oh, that's annoying. The ball doesn't bounce back for us to enjoy. But then, yeah, as Nick said, the ringer multiplier as well, having to fact up the anxiety of having your first effort on goal. And by that point, once the warm-up's really started, Charlie, you've got someone in goal, hopefully, to start, you know, fielding a few shots to make the whole thing a little bit more realistic. At that point, you can start to up the ante.

44:23Charlie Eccleshare:Is that fair?

44:24Nick Miller:A bit, but again, you don't like... I mean, it depends on the purpose. Obviously, if you're warming up a goalkeeper, that's quite like a fine line. Yeah, straight out. Yeah, you are. But again, that feels quite weird because you're like, this is quite an unnatural thing to be trying to do. to penetrate at you. But yeah, I think even in like five-a-side, you're sort of just peppering them as shots. You don't want to be like absolutely leathering it past them. It's like in tennis when someone just smashes a winner past you and you're having a little knock-up. In the warm-up, yeah. There's one player who's like supposedly notorious for that.

44:53A professional player, you mean?

44:55Nick Miller:Yeah. Other players have criticised her, yeah. The thing with doing it in 11-a-side goal, I often find myself with this sort of dilemma as well, in that as a defender as well, It's so rare that I'll ever have a shot in a match. So there is a bit of a novelty of me being able to just have a pop from just outside the area and sort of take a free kick or just have a shot in the warm-up. So you do really want to go for it. So I don't really mind about missing it. But the open goal thing, when there's no keeper there, as often happens, if I sort of try and bend it into the top corner but I don't catch it right, it just sort of goes along the ground into the middle of the goal, you do feel really stupid.

45:34Charlie Eccleshare:You can't really take any pleasure from it, can you? a friend of mine had a uh quite extreme example of this where he was i can't know what the scenario was but he was playing at anfield and i think before the game and he he's got quite a good shot on him and then but there's this clip of him someone's filming it there's a clip of him the person is filming him taking the shot and from that it looks like he's got quite a nice contact on it aiming into an open goal and then the sort of camera pans and follows the ball as it sails gently very, very far wide and into the cup. The stadium's another level though, isn't it?

46:09Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Oh God, the pressure to find the posted stamp there and yeah, not embarrass yourself. Charlie, during a Fiverr side warm-up, it strikes me that there's sort of 10 % of the population are completely illiterate to the acceptable range to shoot from in a Fiverr side warm-up. People who absolutely hammer it at you from just inside the sort of D. You think, what are you doing? And in various situations, it's usually sort of fellow dads or something you don't know very well. You can't say, oh, please don't do that, mate. Like, can you just not? It's like, people just don't get it. They just batter it at you because they play football every now and then.

46:45Charlie Eccleshare:They don't realise there's an implicit distance that you're supposed to do this from.

46:49Nick Miller:As in inside the area of a goal you're not allowed to shoot from in the game. I mean, that's insane.

46:54Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, flirting with the edge of the D. I mean, you shouldn't even really be shooting from the edge of the D in the warm-up. Yeah. Really. Like, it's just like, come on.

47:02Nick Miller:Testing the goalkeeper's reflexes.

47:04Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, just absolutely batch it. Like, just a bouncing loose ball as well, just like half volleying it. The goal's going, I'm right here. Can you just not do it? Like, that's not a warm-up. That's just like, Jesus, man. But yeah, Michael Cox has tapped into the anxieties of a whole nation of five-a-side players there. Right, second irritation for this month comes from Dan Engeren. Mesut Haaland-Dix, frustration of football. I hate the cliche, if it's not a foul, book him for simulation, which is often said by the same sorts of commentators who will say it's a physical game, it's just a coming together, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

47:52But, you know, if he goes down and it's not a foul, it's booking for simulation that doesn't make sense that's bullshit steven warnock just did it and it annoyed me um like five seconds ago so there we go

48:08Charlie Eccleshare:adam what what game what game is i was distracted by one that and two the idea of an american knowing who steven warnock is yeah i heard harry mcguire so harry mcguire as well yeah yeah so authentic that recording yeah a nice evolution from someone having the late waves lapping at the shore um this is a good example dave of some indignant football logic i think sort of a complete and deliberate disregard for the inconvenient gray areas of football so it's foul or booking for diving i mean it's completely unsustainable piece of logic isn't it really yeah and i have to be a bit careful in terms of i don't want to sound too uh sort of snobbish here But when you've played the game, like I do find that often like in my friends and stuff and people when you when you hear people going mad about any contact and saying that should be a foul or a booking or whatever, it is often from the people that don't really play football or haven't actually played like proper 11 a side football ever.

49:13like they don't really get that you can you can clash with people like you can be physical and

49:19Charlie Eccleshare:it not be a foul like that is part of football these gray areas are interesting to me nick because you know it's it's the sort of lightly applied logic that football is still a contact sport and that logic is applied for not giving fouls a lot of the time it's like it was just a coming together in the box like these sort of flannel-y languaged sort of ways of expressing that it wasn't really a foul. It's just six of one, half a dozen of the other. And you get professional referees on broadcast saying, nah, not for me, just that's a bit soft. You think, that's not in the PGMOL handbook. You can't talk like that.

49:51Charlie Eccleshare:You've got to tell us either way why it's not. So I think a lot of people are addicted to that kind of middle language because it feels like they can just fudge an answer. Yeah, this often feels slightly passive-aggressive as well. It's like the person isn't usually saying, well, that should be a Yalikov's explanation. They're using it as a kind of proof that it was actually a foul. well right if it wasn't a foul then why hasn't he booked him well and yeah as an extension of that

50:14Nick Miller:i remember robbie keen should have won a penalty for spurs at stanford bridge i think it was i'm pretty sure it was in the parking the bus game in 2004 and he ran up to the ref and said book me then book me then that's amazing yeah if it's not a penalty you've got to book me

50:29Charlie Eccleshare:is that a bookable offense do you think like getting trying to ask did he wave an imaginary card the reverse robbie fowler sometimes your memory really comes up trumps and that is one of the occasions it was a great moment david imagine a dystopian future dystopian parallel universe perhaps where uh football is ruled by this dichotomy of foul or booking for diving um what hellish existence that would be just people yellow cards everywhere and players just going yeah i suppose so it's one or the other isn't it so yeah although i don't know i think you have slightly fallen into a trap there of if we were giving bookings for that, or if we are giving penalties for that, then we're going to be giving, you know, 40 a game.

51:11Charlie Eccleshare:That's way too many for the proverbial penalties per game. How many was it? I think it was 10, 10 to 15. I want 10 to 15 penalties a game for a little bit. And then I, then I would lose interest. But that Robbie Keane story is completely fine for me. Dan Engeren. Yeah, I need to know what game is in the background there. but yeah thank you for that right the third and final irritation from our listeners this month comes from george goodison hi guys my niche footballing irritation is the way that penalty shootout scores are recorded a relative recent example is england beating spain in the euro 25 final it's recorded as 3-1 but england took five penalties and spain took four this seems a little bit unfair to me i get it spain couldn't come back from 3-1 down at that point but england had the benefit of taking another penalty it could well have been 3-2 I think a fairer way to do it would be to just say England won on penalties and leave the score aside because at the end of the day it's a tiebreaker anyway so it doesn't really matter what the score was one team just prevails over the other on penalties I think saying 3-1 4-2 whatever it is is just ridiculous.

52:16Charlie Eccleshare:This has absolutely blown me away I started listening to this thinking okay he's going to be going on about how a penalty shootout scoreline shouldn't be added to the score after 90 minutes as is so often the case all sorts of things like just or maybe the representation of the score on the screen and then it went off in a direction i had no idea that it was going to go into this is mental by the way mental it is mental uh but all it made me think of is the so in that scenario he presented where he said well maybe it could have been three two yeah i just cut i just the delicious futility of someone having to take a penalty that doesn't mean anything at the end consolation penalty A consolation penalty.

52:53It's so pointless and futile that I now desperately want it to happen.

52:58Charlie Eccleshare:This is all I want to talk about now, Dave. The scenario of a consolation penalty in a shootout where the penalty itself would make no difference to the end result. What does the walk up to the ball look like? What kind of penalty is it? Does the goalkeeper care? What are the fans doing? Are there ironic cheers when they score? A penenka in the consolation penalty. The keeper just lets it go in and just goes, are like, well done, mate. And then runs some wheels off in celebration with his teammates because only then is he allowed to do it.

53:28Nick Miller:This is like we sometimes get on a cliches quiz where it's like the quiz has been wrapped up. It's like, well, do you want your last question anyway? Yeah, go on then.

53:35Charlie Eccleshare:Or like Happy Hunting Grounds Live where you've already won with a round to spare and I still let you have a go. This is absolutely amazing. George Goodison, I'm really sorry for completely panning you here, but I just, I did not expect where this was going to go.

53:48Nick Miller:it just blossomed into something beautiful yeah i mean i sometimes have a mild curiosity if i see a penalty scoreline of oh i wonder if that was a you know yeah just how comfortable that was because yeah you don't know but yeah but that's all like that's as far as it goes for me and well to be

54:04Charlie Eccleshare:fair charlie and i might check and yeah for someone as football literate as yourself if you are slightly befuddled by that then perhaps there should be a method for demonstrating that the other team had a penalty left. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, the way the sort of tennis sort of denotes a tie break, you know, it shows exactly how many points they did get in that tie break to win it, you know. So something like that, would that help? Yeah.

54:30Nick Miller:Yeah. I mean, but again, I was thinking like with tennis, it would be like you've won the set, but go on, have your serve as well to see if it's a 6-4 set, even though I've won it 6-3. Just so we're clear, because 6-3 could be two breaks, it could be one. So at least that way we know. Stat padding as well. Yeah. I was like, you don't need to do it. But does anyone ever really look at the scoreline of a penalty shootout? Do you ever actually pay any attention to it? Only in the moment I might. There were some curiosities. I remember very vividly, I think it was 95 FA Cup, there was a 2-0 score in a penalty shootout.

55:01Nick Miller:And I remember being like, that is mad. What has happened there? So I would check how that went down.

55:07Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, that is... But generally, no. 2-0 is a completely unacceptable penalty shootout scoreline, Nick. What's your favourite? I actually can't remember what the exact scoreline was, but the 1986 European Cup final was Barcelona against Stalbrook Respa's famously terrible penalty. I don't think Barcelona scored any of their penalties. I can't remember how many Stal scored. Hang on. If only there was a way to find this out. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Ah, it was 2-0. There you go. Another classic 2-0. There you go. Spoiled. The first four penalties were missed. Two on each team, and then Stal scored their next two, and Barcelona missed.

55:42Charlie Eccleshare:That is dreadful. That's actually dreadful. Dreadful pursuit out both in essence and in delivery. Dave, I'm keen on a 4-3. That was going to be mine. I don't really care who goes first or second in this scenario because, as you say, I'm not really going to look into it, but a 4-3 looks right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't really care, to be honest, but I was just trying to think. Why are we doing this? No. Can we? I don't care. Can you get a 4-2? Is that possible? Yeah, you can get a 4-2. Yeah, yeah. I'll have a 4-2 then. I like a 4-2. Charlie, do you know what? I don't mind a 13-12. Sure.

56:16Charlie Eccleshare:I'll take a double, double figures. I'm all for it every now and then, but it should only happen in like an England under 21 like tournament game or something like that. Nothing major. Not like a Champions League final.

56:26Nick Miller:I remember South Korea in the 2002 World Cup beat Spain 5-3 and that looking again like, is that possible?

56:32Charlie Eccleshare:Fair play, that is weird. And I can't really remember one since. Right, we can't posit one more penalty shootout scoreline. That is enough. Brilliant stuff from our listeners this month. Thank you for everyone who got in touch. Thanks to you, Nick Miller. Thank you. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you. Thanks to you, Dave Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.

57:01I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded.

57:12Nick Miller:Everything's either going to be okay. No. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX's The Bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. Find the biggest voices in sports on the Sports Social Podcast Network. Like me, Andy, from Let's Talk FPL. your home for everything fantasy Premier League. Whether you're playing for the first time this season or you've spent years picking the wrong captain, I've got you covered with transfers, captaincy, chip strategy and everything you need to stay ahead of your mini-league rivals. With new episodes throughout the week, all season long, search for Let's Talk FPL wherever you get your podcasts and let's get you that mini-league win.

58:07Charlie Eccleshare:Rebuild is how you go to top, top tee. Tennis unfiltered. We've got to stop this fixation with we need Sinner and Alperaz for everything. The Blue Room. I can't speak highly enough of Hayden Acne. I think several Premier League clubs will be left looking back and thinking they should have been the club to sign him. All on Europe's biggest sport podcast network. Find your next favourite sport podcast. Search Sports Social Podcast Network and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Sports Social Podcast Network. Verified comparison at content.sport-social.co.uk forward slash comparison.