Properly getting out, cricketing ASMR, and shadow umpire’s call

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1:54Did he do that? Unbelievable! What about that? It wasn't just one of those where it might stick or it might not. Remember the name! There's so much elegance about it, and yet it was quite brutal. Oh, he's up to the river! What a river! What a good fish! Hello and welcome to Cricket Clichés, the podcast about cricket linguistics and lunacy. How can it possibly be episode 6 already? Coming up

2:34Clattering stumps and the Lord's hum your favourite cricket noises The proper way to get out And yes, more stranger cricket things from the Shadow Realm

2:54Hello, I'm Daniel Norcross and I've gathered the whole gang together for the final show of this run maybe even forever I guess that's probably up to the listeners at home or listener, who knows to decide all that It's a warm welcome therefore to Nick Miller, Dan Gallon, Charlie Reynolds and of course David Ronald Eric Tickner Hello one and all Hello Hello. Hey, Dan. Are we feeling a bit poignant? I mean, it was only like seven weeks ago, wasn't it, that we started this? I was in Perth. You were all in England. Maybe Charlie was in Australia. And now the tables have been turned. We're looking at Dan Gallon, looking about as South African as a Dan Gallon can get.

3:35We normally see him huddled under a beanie in the cold of England, assimilating perfectly into British culture, downtrodden and miserable. here he is in his natural habitat with two giant cucumbers sticking out of each bare shoulder a vest and a tattoo running down the side of his right arm um we're not going to ask dan this how do we all feel about seeing like the real dan gallen semi-naked i quite like it i mean i was less less of a fan of him turning around the computer a few minutes ago and showing us actual table mountain while we are kind of all shivering in england and i'm in a kind of windowless box in an office somewhere but you know i quite like the um the sort of the naked south african-ness of it all it's like seeing a polar bear when you're in the wild when you've only seen a polar bear at the zoo exactly well yeah i would say i mean polar bear is entirely inappropriate while you're sweltering in 35 degree heat i would i would say more like a crocodile i'll take that or baboon it's one or the other um anyway look i've had a quick look through today's running order and it's got a bit of an end of term feel to it as i suppose you'd imagine as we were commissioned to do these six episodes across the ashes so sort of think of it as like the christmas best bits version of your favorite tv panel show lots of callbacks to stuff we've done in the past we are going to start with something fresh though this has come through from patrick hall he says watching the big bash league matt renshaw lobs up a slow off spinner to ben manenti who gets through the shot too early chips it back for a court and bowl.

5:08Oh, catch! He's got him! It is staggering. Absolutely staggering. Minetti holes out. And I really can't believe what we're seeing here. No, it's a simple, simple dismissal. Again, it's just a regulation off the ground. And it's just bunted back to Matt Renshaw. Oh, catch! Couldn't believe his luck. Now, you see, I'm with Patrick Hall here. He's outraged. That was Andy Marr, incidentally, on Channel 7. Hole out? Is it possible for a caught and bold to be holed out? I mean, the only way I could see it is if it was hit way over the bowler's head and he ran all the way back to the boundary and then turned and then took it with his fingers pointing up.

5:53I can't see a caught and bold ever holed out, guys. I think even that's stretching it because I was thinking, with holing out, it's like you've picked out a fielder, specifically in the deep so even in your example which is definitely closer the bowlers still had to leg it to come anywhere close to qualifying as holding out it has to be you know long off long on something like that doesn't it holding out surely so to me it's also not it's not just the boundary it's in front of square i think i'm not sure can you hole out to find leg not sure don't think you can no no i think you're right i think you're right a push i'd maybe take like I don't know, like cow corner or something.

6:33Deep back of square, maybe. Yeah. Deep square. But you can't hole out to third man or final leg, I don't think. But if you run more than five metres, you can't hole out. Surely. It has to be, as Ticker said, you have to pick him out. If there's a diving catch on the boundary, then immediately renders it un-holed out. I know that's not a phrase, but you know what I mean. I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I'm not sure I do agree with it. But what if he goes for the big swipe, it goes high in the air, the bowler barely has to move a muscle, and still takes it like you would take a holdout catch on a boundary.

7:05Because he is, I mean, strictly speaking, that is where you would expect to find the bowler in his follow-through, if he doesn't have to move a muscle. No, I don't think so. I think it's kind of, you have to imagine, I mean, maybe I'm a bit too literal about this, but the field are down quite a small hole, like a well or something, and you've just hit it very high in the air, and it's unfortunately just plopped straight down into the well and been caught. and you know any any anywhere else it would have you know bounced off the edge of the well or whatever but you've just hauled out you've just you've hit it straight into the into the slot that's perfect that's exactly what it is Patrick Hall is absolutely right on this that is an excrucible piece of commentary is totally unacceptable should never happen and I'm not quite sure how it has happened there because Andy Miles a very fine commentator been doing it for years uh if if any catch is holing out then frankly you can get you can hole out to a diving catch at first slip one-handed by steve smith and that therefore invalidates the whole point of holing out patrick call you're absolutely correct uh red card for andy marr liam harrison has been in touch he says i'd love to know what makes something a cricket shot as opposed to not being a cricket shot is it just the traditionality of the stroke or something else completely now this has irked me for a long time in 2019 i had a bit of a rant on twitter about things i wanted to see gone forever like for example that's washington sundar doing washington sundar things possibly the most excellent well not because of washington sundar just anybody doing those things or uh this is zach crawley's world we just live in it never never expunge get rid of but proper cricket shots was actually my third least favorite phrase of that time because i want to put it to the panel that the advent of t20 has eradicated the the notion of the proper cricket shot we're all just playing shots now however and wherever we like it or am i have i gone too far there's a sort of moral haughtiness to as well with i think we saw well i noticed a fair bit with bethel's 100 in the fifth test in that it people were it's like there's an element of surprise to it it's like we scored 100 proper cricket shots as well not like you know this kind of young blonde thing had just kind of wandered in sort of whacking the ball everywhere he was actually you know it turns out he actually is a cricketer and he's he can play proper cricket shots as well so yeah there is a there is a sort of sniffiness to it and i suppose the intention is that there is like there's more um it's more deliberate and someone hasn't got lucky it's just like they are they're playing proper drives and they're playing um you know they're not doing any of this kind of fancy or kind of immoral or or you know gaudy stuff that you might see in white ball cricket okay so let's So let's take, for example, the sweep, because I think the sweep is an area where the boundaries get blurred.

10:11I think we know what these moralisers mean, the sort of Barry Davis commentators of the cricket world, when they talk about a proper cricket shot. I think what they mean is a drive, for the most part, a cut, well executed, a gentle leg glance. If you're going to go behind square, why can't your leg glance it? Why do you have to get down on your arse and try and flip it up and over to the left of the keeper? I think that's what they mean by proper shots. But the sweep, now this actually divides whole continents. Because as far as Ian Chappell is concerned, the sweep is an effete milk toast of a shot only played by wet-eyed Englishmen.

10:50And you should always just use your feet. Now the slog sweep is not a proper cricket shot. But we in England think that the sweep itself is a classical shot played most famously by Dennis Compton to win the 1953 Ashes at the Oval and sits in the proper cricket shot like Bucket. Where are we on the sweep? I think the sweep, it's one of those shots where it's the right decision until it isn't. It's almost like it's a zero-sum game with the sweep, like a heave or a pedal. You know, you can paddle your way to 99, but if you get out paddling on 99, oh, well, that was one too many. I think the sweep is the same sort of thing.

11:31And I think it's one of those shots where it's 100 % the right decision until it isn't. Whereas, I don't know, a drive, you can nick off. One can chop on cutting. One can maybe pull straight to the short mid wicket. It's like, well, the shot was on there. But no one's ever said, oh, well, it was the right decision to sweep and go out to york yourself or to hole out at the man down at the boundary. So it's one of those ones where you paint a bullseye around the already shot arrow. Okay, but how about the reverse sweep? Because you see, I see in the reverse sweep a shot that used to genuinely not be a proper cricket shot, now becoming an accepted proper cricket shot on the basis that it moves fielders about.

12:12So you remember when Harry Brook got out of Adelaide in the unlikely run chase to a reverse sweep? There was genuine uncertainty in the box. Now, five years ago, he would have been pilloried, banned from playing cricket for England for at least 10 years. And a bit like Mike Gatting, it would have gone down in folklore, Mike Gatting's reverse sweep in the World Cup final against Australia in 1987. Now, people are genuinely questioning whether actually the reverse sweep is a proper cricket shot because it puts the spinner off their lines and lengths, forces a change in the field and allows you to play a proper cricket shot into the onside for a single having moved the field it's like a precursor to a proper cricket shot it's a gateway cricket shot it's a gateway unproper cricket shot to the proper cricket shot it feels a little bit like um allowing the reverse sweep in as a proper cricket shot like um like a sort of quite posh restaurant reluctantly accepting that you can go in without wearing a blazer kind of thing it's it's a kind of um yeah all right fine you're reluctantly moving with the times but not really happy about it.

13:18Oh, so letting P Diddy into a fancy Mayfair restaurant? Well, I mean, you could not possibly have chosen a worse example there. So where do we stand? Where does the point come? And do we think, actually, that proper cricket shots are going to be re-evaluated over time? Or is this something that's going to be set in stone? You know, like the MCC coaching manual is the first and last word on what constitutes a proper cricket shot. and every other shot that sits outside that, you know, your dill scoops, your ramps, your switch hits. Well, do we know that those shots aren't in the book anymore? It's something I've been curious about.

13:56Oh, that's Jeff Boycott. We often say, oh, that's straight from the coach's manual. I would love to see a 2026 coach's manual. Is the dill scoop on page 73? And is the reverse strapple on the following page? I would love to know if things have been updated. Maybe, I mean, the obvious answer is that any shot on a cricket field where the cricket bat is a proper cricket shot, which is what we're kind of talking around. But yeah, have they updated the coaching manuals? Who's played the fewest number of proper cricket shots in this, Ashish? Because I would argue that Joffre Archer played the most number of proper cricket shots.

14:29Harry Brook played quite a lot of extraordinary shots, but he balanced it out with some normal ones. But there were some that you sort of thought, well, you worried that something had happened to him. I think that's the thing with Brook, though, isn't it? is that his not cricket shots attract the ire that they do because we see him play cricket shots all the time. We know he can play proper cricket shots. It's the same reason that people get a bit stressed out with Root's reverse ramp, isn't it? Because Root doesn't need that. He doesn't need that. He's better than that. And so I think there's something there that...

15:13It's not so much the number of non-cricket shots you play, it's how necessary they feel for the player in question. So Glenn Maxwell gets a pass because we don't think he can actually play proper cricket shots. We expect him to have to play improper cricket shots. But say Virat Kohli, Kay Williamson, Joe Root, Barba Azam, they've all got to be, if they get out not playing a proper cricket shot, then that is somehow worse. I think that probably works, doesn't it? Or if Maxwell nicks off trying to play a proper cricket shot. I guess that's however we try to pigeonhole him. Yeah, good point, actually.

15:48Why didn't he just Maxwell ball it? Yeah, exactly. Stop playing proper cricket shots. I was there for the reverse scoop. Look what he's done. Right, well, that's proper cricket shots. But how about proper ways of getting out? Glenn's been in touch. He said, I've always wanted to know why strangled is the only way of being out caught behind down the leg. and you cannot be strangled out in any other way at all. Tom picked up this and ran with it. Why is it considered unlucky, he says, to be caught at leg slip stroke, strangled to the keeper down the leg side? In fact, there's a clear hierarchy of where it's okay to be caught and this is Tom's hierarchy, which we shall grade in a moment.

16:29One, leg slip down the leg side, unlucky. Two, in the slips or by the keeper, most likely to be put down to good bowling unless it's a batter who everyone has it in for. Three, on the boundary or via a big shot that goes straight up regardless of the map situation. Arrogance stroke ego, especially if English and especially if Northern. Four, at an unorthodox position in front of square. Clever captaincy. I like this hierarchy. I like it a lot. Let's start, though, with the original issue of strangling. I've never been quite sure why it's strangled. Why is it strangled? It's just accepted. I've always had an issue with this.

17:11It's one of the clearest this is a batter's game things for me, that it's considered deeply unlucky. You've nicked it. You've nicked it down the leg side. The bowler might be lucky because he might not have been trying to bowl it down the leg side, although sometimes I think it is a legitimate tactic. But it's always considered a little bit unlucky. but you've played a false shot. You can leave the ball down the leg side just as easily as you can leave it outside off. There's no absolute compulsion to play at those. If you get a little thin nick through to the keeper, you've got a little thin nick through to the keeper.

17:50It's not unlucky. Well, I need to understand, though, at what point it ceases to be a strangle because my understanding of strangling is that it's always when somebody's trying to catch up with the ball, turn the wrists on it, do the little flick, get the inside edge, gets caught down the leg side. But I want to give you an example of one that happened in the Ashes where Harry Brook made, well, one of those rare decisions to try not to play an aggressive shot to a short ball. Might have been even at Perth. He'd been batting quite well. Do you remember it? And he tried at the last minute to get his gloves out of the way.

18:22His gloves were round about shoulder height. It brushed the glove, went down the leg side through to the keeper. Is there a point at which the ball is too high and you're playing not quite the right shot for it to be a strangling, even if what has kind of happened is a ball down the leg side that you should have and could have left ends up in your dismissal court by the keeper. I think you have to be actively working it down the leg side to be strangled. I think you're kind of strangling it down the leg side. But can you be strangled on the front foot? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think so. You can, okay.

18:57Yeah, in the kind of the example that you cited there, Daniel, it's a kind of, there's more of an element that that could be like good bowling because maybe it's got a bit big on the batter or, you know, they have sort of targeted the ribs or something like that. There's sort of an element of he's in two minds, he's changed his mind, whereas the strangling is your the shot you're always trying to play is the one that you play but instead of getting enough bat on it to get four you just flick it to the keeper because if it's short enough you'd be you'd be bounced out right trying to play the pool it gets big on you that you're a credit for bowler yeah there's some way where i don't know what length is it when you're tucking it off your hips you're saying it can be up around the armpits you can be strangled around the armpit can you i think if you've got a little tickle of a glove on one down the armpit if you're just if you're sort of like thinking about trying to just flick it into the onside but you get a little bit of glove instead i think that can be a strangle all the way through that's all the way through to like knee high i mean i'd even go so far as to say because you have seen it occasionally where it's not quite a half volley length but they go to flick it they get a little inside edge back in front of pad taken down the leg side i mean it seems to me we were consider that a strangling because we'd think of it as bowler error, which is ultimately where, well, that tickers his point, isn't it?

20:28And I think that is kind of key to this. It's the idea that that isn't the line the bowler wanted to bowl. And as soon as it's anything approaching a bouncer, it's much more, well, yeah, he's tucked him up and drawn him into a mistake rather than the batter just committing a mistake against a ball he shouldn't have. Well, yeah, I mean, Simon Hughes is massive on this. As a self-described pace bowler of the past, he genuinely believed that it was a legitimate tactic to bowl around waist high down the leg side every now and then because occasionally batters will just get a little feather on it because it's actually quite hard to get full face of the bat on it.

21:11So he thinks that some bowlers, including himself, actually tried to do that. I just wonder if it's because Simon didn't have perfect control of line and length outside the off stump. It's very hard to prove but it is as soon as there's a leg slipping there's an element that this is clearly some form of plan however desperate a one it might be to Steve Smith on 157 or whatever but as soon as there's a leg slipping there there's at least some thought of the odd ball down here is not a bad shout. I had a bit of a meltdown about this on twitter the other day but the real problem is when they're like oh that's unlucky when they've hit it straight to leg slip there's nothing unlucky about that you've specifically placed a fielder there for them to do that that's it's the opposite of unlucky i mean eventually they stopped saying it about carrie in this series after he did it about three times but it's ridiculous it took more than i mean it's ridiculous it took more than one time but i don't know it makes me mad i should stop talking about it flicking one straight to leg slip when the leg slippers are you know it's there if roadrunner ran straight into the the hole in the mountain the uh guile coyote had painted you can't you know it's not unlucky it's you've just fallen into a stupid trap well especially because we always see a leg slip and go that's just a tricksy position the ball never goes there so if you're the klutz that it's straight to leg slip then the acme fielding position yeah there's always i think it was it was steve smith at the oval in 2019 yeah it was the end of that series where no one could get him out yeah it couldn't get him out all series so they said well fuck it let's just try this and then the key is the kind of the look on the fielding team's faces the kind of i can't believe he fell for it uh look and as they kind of celebrate so yeah i think he the excuse was that um he was just kind of burned out by scoring all those runs at that point so he just sort of fell straight into the trap Yeah, I think we all agree it's crap batting.

23:09But to get back to the hierarchy, so leg slip stroke down the leg side is considered unlucky. We've cut that off and decided it comes down to ineptitude. Then number two, in the slips or by the keeper, most likely to be put down to good bowling. As we know from Dan and his shadow nicks, that's obviously the cool way to get out, isn't it? If you're going to get out, you don't want to be bowled, but getting a ripper that takes the outside edge, that's a dismissal with honour, isn't it? I think it is the coolest way to get out, yeah, definitely. But as you suggested earlier, Daniel, there is a sort of cut-off point because if you're Zach Crawley or you're James Vinson, it feels like it's inevitable that you're going to serve one up to second slip after you've scored a stylish 30, then that becomes a stick to beat with.

23:55Well, there's a difference between them getting turned into an S and wafting at one. The result is the same, quarter to second slip. But if you're wafting at one, totally uncool, you idiot, you might as well get caught down the legs side for how uncool you are so do you have to be playing a defense you have to be playing a defensive shot in order to be caught in the slips if you're caught in the slips driving in any way is that bad yes i i would go with that because even even if you're trying to force it off the back foot i mean i remember Jacques Cullis went through the stage where he just kept trying to play that that back foot cover drive that he played so well but when it started getting him out you're like just stop doing it there's this thing very uncool about trying to force it through the covers yeah get turned into an s that's fine walk off the field with dignity and your head held high but if you're doing the crawley if you're doing the vents if you're doing the Cullis as I just alluded to yeah there's something a bit annoying about it.

24:38He then has third caught on the boundary or via a big shot that goes straight up regardless of the match situation. I don't know I think sometimes you know in white ball cricket you'll often hear a commentator say he had no choice but to go after that. Or bat him with the tail. Yeah and also you know maybe pace off. And there can be a sort of noble sacrifice element to it can't there. Yeah and I think there's also sometimes you can give credit to the bowler on those ones can't you because You know, if they bowl the slower bouncer with Europa needing 32 off two overs, deceived by the pace, gets underneath it, caught on the boundary.

25:16But then I do like the last one, an unorthodox position in front of square, clever captaincy. Now, this was one that Michael Clarke kept on getting out to, didn't he? Did he not keep on getting caught in front of square? Was it in like 2009, Ashes, Andrew Strauss having a short, short extra cover? Sounds familiar, yeah. Yeah, and that was always good captaincy, wasn't it? If ever you're caught at a catching cover position, that is genius captaincy. Is that fair? With those, there's always a thing about being in the batsman's eye line as well. I think it was in the 2005 Ashes, they had those kind of odd short mid-ons and mid-offs that were apparently kind of genius because they were in the batsman's eye line, which I've never quite got.

26:01but they are still, as you say, on the umbrella of clever captaincy. I actually hate the short mid-on because I think it serves only to disrupt the non-striker and be in the batter's eye line. I just think if you're a batter, you think, oh, brilliant, that means there's a great big gap somewhere else. I'll have a look at that gap, put the gap in my eye line and then hit the ball there. There's never a gap in the eye line, is there? You just use your sunglasses to pot off Steve Smith. Was it Stokes who had the first basketball series when you had the three men on the offside and three men on the onside.

26:33And it was just basically this umbrella of fielders all in the batter's eye line. And I thought that was genius. I think that's a fantastic field set. I think you use that at Edgbaston and Old Trafford, don't you? Because the pitches are glacially slow and completely rubbish. Should be dug up and thrown away. I quite liked it. I liked the look of it. Could put that on a t-shirt. One with sleeves, hopefully.

26:56But there's a sort of like closing in, like claustrophobia element to that as well isn't it yeah when i was in australia we went to a big bash game and they have the the power surge or whatever where you have to bring in basically all of the fielders and every single time they got no runs whatsoever because they're just a whole load of fielders in close and actually it's quite intimidating and they they didn't you know the field is suddenly rather on top of you and actually it's quite hard to hit boundaries so i think the umbrella sort of field works quite well

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29:03What time has it been? It's clobber time!

29:14Now we're going to move on to what is the main meat of today, and this is what we're going to get. We're going to get barraged by noises. So we put out a question. We wanted to know what your favourite cricketing sounds are. thanks to everyone who sent them in here are a few atmospheric notions to kick us off from Ollie Warren my favourite noise in cricket is when the first trumpet notes of Jerusalem blast out on the first morning of an away ashes so much hope and excitement of what is to come before the inevitable collapse into despair

29:52it's you have to be quick to enjoy that one it's uh it's it's a strange one for me that that that is that is it's a sort of very stirring tune and i i agree with this sort of symbolism that this is you know we're starting a new this is the start of a brand new day anything could happen kind of thing but it is for me it is also kind of tied in with the barmy army very sort of self-importantly making everything else must kind of everyone else must pause while we sing our song and then after that the day may commence mitchell stark rude yeah yeah this is there is a sort of implication that this this pesky cricket is getting in the way of our singing one of my favorite things uh a test match ever i think it was old trafford i think it was in the last ashes series a bloke about two rows behind us who when the Barmy army started singing Jerusalem just bellowed no at the end of each question well it is true it is the most remarkable poem in so far as the answer to every single question is no isn't it yeah I've just never heard anyone actually issue the response to the Barmy's in that way well you know they start every single one of their events with a rendition of Jerusalem I did 8 or 9 Barmy events during the ashes and before we're allowed to commence with the Q &A or the balmy bingo or whatever it may happen to be Finching the Trumpeter starts us off with a rendition of Jerusalem which is always sung incredibly stirringly but a little bit like Swing Low at the rugby I have a doubt that most of the people who are singing it recognize the political significance of the words that are being sung because there is one of the most radical socialist anthems composed in the 19th century, isn't it?

31:51Which doesn't really accord with the start of a cricket match. I didn't know about the... That's quite Freemason-y, isn't it? We must... Proceedings must not begin, even if we're playing fucking bingo, without singing the song. Or Trump's America. Yeah. It's the Pledge of Allegiance. Yeah, but at least, you know, it's William Blake and it's stirring. Oh, it's a wonderfully stirring kind of, you know, piece of music and poem, but it's just how it's been co-opted that irritates me. Here's a quick one from Neil Weatherstone. He says, his favourite sound in cricket is a sound that is in sync with the pictures, which I'm presuming...

32:34Satire. Yes, it might be a dig at TNT. Charlie and I didn't really get to see any of it, So maybe you three can give us a quick summation of the highs and lows. There was a sound-seeking issue with TNT's coverage whereby you would quite frequently hear what had happened before you saw it. So there was one particularly egregious one at, I can't remember which test match it was, but someone got bowled and the... Steve Smith. Smith and Bargham, there you go. Bowled tongue. Bowled him! You heard bowled before the ball had actually reached the batter, which was irksome, to say the least. I don't know if it's full circle, but if we got to the point where I sort of feel bad, I feel like that Simpsons meme, like, stop, he's already dead.