Secondary goal celebrations & the "we talk about" epidemic: The listeners' loves & hates

21:18And it was when people were still calling him Rodrigo at the time. He hadn't been fully christened Rodri. And yeah, mad to think that he's completed football since then.

21:28Charlie Eccleshare:Incredible. Some people still misspell his name with an H in there, like he's Welsh. He's Welsh. Rodri. Statter than John Charles is. He's done the lot. Right. Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands a virtual private network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while travelling. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches, and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan.

22:07Charlie Eccleshare:It's the best discount available. We'll be back very shortly. We'll be back very shortly with the listeners, Meza Harland Dix. If your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odoo. Odoo is an all-in-one business management software that connects every part of your business into one powerful, easy-to-use platform. So instead of wasting time switching between disconnected systems, your entire business works together in real time. Your team moves faster, your data stays accurate, and you can actually focus on growing your business.

22:47Let one unified system run your entire business. From the first opportunity to the final payment, everything works together in one place.

22:57Charlie Eccleshare:Whether you're a small business or managing a large operation, Odoo gives you one flexible platform built to grow with you. Learn more at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Find the biggest voices in sports on the Sports Social Podcast Network. Like the Football for Kids podcast with me, Darren Rees, where kids get to learn about their favourite players, teams, trophies and more. The podcast where kids are inspired, educated and motivated through the thing which they love. Search Football for Kids and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

23:45Find the biggest voices in sports on the Sports Social Podcast Network. Like Planet FPL, the world where everything revolves around fantasy Premier League. With me, Serge. And me, James. Where we bring you the best analysis of all the Premier League action and how it can help you beat your mini-league rivals and climb up the FPL ranks. Just search Planet FPL wherever you get your podcasts. Sports Social Podcast Network

24:17Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

24:25Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. It's time for the listeners' Mezzet Harland-Dix for July. Before that, Dreamland episode 27 is, of course, out now. Dave, I loved recording it so much that I went on an hour-long walk and listened to it back in its entirety and loved every second. Ali Maxwell's highlight was you listing all the places you've ever been in your sort of post-adolescence. Personally, my favourite bit was the bit where you just said, I think a key factor is proximity to water. I stand by it. That's the level of granular detail we went into. Football on holiday. Episode 27 of Dreamland out now.

25:00Charlie Eccleshare:Episode 28 will follow next week. You can sign up for Dreamland for just£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show. Lots of other things as well. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. Right, time for the listeners' Mesut Haaland-Dix for July. Let's kick things off with your fascinations, the first of which comes from Jack. My footballing fascination would be the secondary celebration that you do after a big goal. So say you're at the game or you're at the pub and you score a goal maybe against your rivals or a last-minute goal or something, And then once it's sort of died down, once it's maybe sort of going back towards kick-off, you kind of take one to yourself, like a single fist pump in there, and you go, yes, just like to sort of get that last little bit out.

25:47And there was a really good example of that recently. I saw it was with Joe Hart, where I think it was a goal against Congo. You can see the footage for the studio where, like, they score and he's going mental. Yeah! Hold on! Are you kidding? What are we doing? Are you kidding? Yeah! So I sort of put it into my mind. But yeah, I thought it was a decent example.

26:13Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, I think the key collection of words in that entry is just to get that last little bit out. And the metaphor I reached for was having a little shake at the urinal after you've done your main business. Spritzing. Is that what it's called? It's what someone called it at school once. I thought that is such a perfect word for it. I don't know if that is a universal term, but it's perfect. It's very identifiable, though, this thing. We've all done it. Like, yeah, because you've still got the adrenaline coursing through you. But the main the main celebrations have finished. And, yeah, you know, yes, it actually has happened.

26:46Charlie Eccleshare:Come on. There are two kind of strands of thought about this, Charlie. First of all, yes, it's you've done the collective celebration. You might have interacted with people around you. You've joined in the chorus of celebration and then you're doing an internal one for yourself. And then the second thing about this is like not just emotionally, but kind of, I don't know, behaviorally you need to bookend what you've just done with a little sort of final full stop and i think it would feel weird not to do that so you've done the work and then and then you can't just settle back down you've got to you've got to do the kind of definitive final dress yeah it's like you're re-centering yourself yeah i think this yeah this is spot on i will do the kind of both fists like that sort of load at like sort of looking down so it is kind of like a personal thing it's like yeah you've had the big explosion and it is just like uh take a moment for yourself do it and then as you say you're back into then feeling nervous or whatever about like oh now you know now we've got to hold on to this lead or whatever it is is it similar to when you see it with players yeah when there's a big celebration big bundle or whatever and then one of them will emerge or maybe the goal scorer just has a little moment to the crowd on their own just sort of giving it a fish pump before they run back sort of half turn to the crowd and just doing that Yeah.

27:58That's such a sign-off, isn't it, really? Sometimes they'll have to do their own bespoke celebration thing that they do after they've been mobbed. So your mate Mikel Marino, for instance, Dave, he sometimes will do the thing and then he does his thing where he runs around the corner flag, which I think was his dad's celebration as well. That's right, yeah. Yeah, it's probably like a personal thing they have as well.

28:17Charlie Eccleshare:That's interesting, Charlie. When you've gone, if it's a particularly sort of dramatic goal, momentous goal, and you've been essentially buried by your teammates and you've still got to do your trademark celebration. That's a little bit awkward. I mean, ideally, they'd want to do that first, then get buried, but then that might undermine the burying. So it's a tricky one if you've got a particularly artsy trademark one, isn't it? It does, yeah. I do think it sort of takes away the moment a little bit. It makes it feel like, oh, by the way, I just got down a little rubber. Better do the thing. Better fold my arms or dance around a corner flag or whatever it is.

28:48Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, Ronaldo did his sue, didn't he? All right, Fletch. Go on, oh, Fletch. You've just reminded me of that. But yeah, he had to sort of wait a bit to do his celebration when he scored his first goal of the World Cup. And that looked terrible as well. But people just expect it right now. Doing it after like a VAR check, that feels so contrived. Has he ever done it without running? Could you just do a standing suit just with the arms? I think it was a standing suit this time. He didn't run anywhere. But he might sort of two or three paces into it. But I think it was essentially a standing suit.

29:21Charlie Eccleshare:A suit. I don't know. Do you roll it? You can't get me on the pronunciation of this as well. It's just a ludicrous thing to say, not in that way. I feel like it's more likely to be rolled, surely. Anyway, right. Good start from Jack. I enjoyed that. The next fascination from our listeners for this month comes from Dan Button. My football fascination is when players hold the football with one hand, defying gravity, with their arm pointed straight towards the ground. It's usually goalkeepers, and I associate it with David James especially. It can be other players, like full-backs, preparing to take a throw in.

29:54It's one of those things that makes you feel like a footballer when you do it. It doesn't even have to be a football. For example, the other day I did it with an empty kettle.

30:05Charlie Eccleshare:Completely unexpected voyage into wider life. An empty kettle. So what was he? Dave, was he holding it by its side and then sort of trying to get around its circumference as much as he could with his palm? I guess that's what it was. It wasn't holding the top of it and then down vertically, surely. The top would be more likely, wouldn't it? Because you could probably get your palm over the top, depending on if it's one that's sort of narrower at the top than it is the bottom. I don't know. It's impressive. I don't know. I mean, Dan Budden, write back in and tell us how you were holding the kettle.

30:34Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, despite that strange tangent at the end, Charlie, it is a king move, to be honest, to be able to hold a ball like that. And, you know, a lot of factors have to go in your favour. If you're not a tall guy, such as Glenn Nyberg, the referee for Spain versus Austria earlier in the World Cup, he came out for the second half holding the ball like that. And I thought to myself, tall guy, he's probably got the finger span to be able to do that. But if you've got a nice new shiny ball, they usually lend themselves quite well to being held like that. As a five foot ninesman, it's borderline for me.

31:08Charlie Eccleshare:But when I'm able to do it, what a feeling. That's interesting you think it's so related to height. Oh, it's just general span, right? Yeah, I guess, yeah. But also, yeah, I don't know if it's like a dexterity thing as well. Flexibility of your fingers to get that wide. Yeah, kind of. I mean, I often enjoy this, Dave, whenever I'm playing in goal and I've got a brand new pair of goalkeeping gloves. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this has probably happened twice in my life, let's be honest. But if you're holding a ball, and a third variable is if you're playing on an artificial pitch. And that rubber crumb really adds a level of sort of tackiness to the ball as well.

31:44Charlie Eccleshare:So you've got new ball, tacky ball, plus new gloves. You don't even have to spread your fingers that much when you've got those three things in your favour. You're basically just holding it like a bird might hold a worm for its young. It definitely helps if you've got goalkeeper gloves on, for sure. The grippiness is a big thing. I think you're probably right in terms of the finger span things. because I imagine some of the massive basketball players are all pretty able to do this. It's such an amazing thing to look. Because they've got massive hands. That's what I associate with basketball players, yeah.

32:18Charlie Eccleshare:It's a glorious sight to watch. I mean, those balls, by definition, are quite grippy, but it's not grippy in the same way. They're grippy in a kind of, I don't know, in a dimply way rather than a sort of sticky way. But it makes you feel like a million dollars. And the fact that that referee did that, Dave, Glenn Nyberg, should have got the final on that basis. Whenever I've... Oh, yeah. On the odd occasion that I've tried to do this, there's always a bit of a moment of like, huh, I've pulled it off. Yeah. And you think, well, will it slip? Can I hold it for long enough to just, you know, keep the spectacle going?

32:49Charlie Eccleshare:Trust me. The first time it ever happens to you, anybody, any kids out there listening, one day you'll get there. You'll get there. And you know, you've hit adulthood. Or it might just be a big freaky kid. So who knows? But yeah, Glenn Nyberg, star of the World Cup in that sense. Great stuff from Dan Budden. Our third fascination for my listeners comes from Bill Sims. So my football and cliches adult brain means that every time I'm walking in a small group I associate it with a football formation. So for example when walking in a group of three I always imagine us as a midfield three or a front three walking next to my mum and sister for example thinking about how they'd be performing at the top level in a 4-3-3 as a lone number six pivot or inverted right winger cutting in onto their magic wand of a left foot goes as I was saying when walking in a pair standing a foot shorter my girlfriend when walking with me has been typecast as the nimble little man to my beanpole in a classic Dave Chalk, Gary Cheese style partnership.

33:40Charlie Eccleshare:More uncommon variations could see me and three friends walking in a diamond formation. Invariably, whoever they are, the person at the front and back will be Kaka and Pirlo in my head. I don't regularly walk in a flat back line of four or five because I'm not in a boy band, but this seems like the next step for me. I can't get it out of my head. Anyone else? The kettle holding of Dan Budden was just a gateway into this month's genuinely mental entry and i think bill sims might have that honor this month charlie um i i i don't think this has ever quite happened to me but i am now quite conscious of where i position myself in a group war of the three of us i think this is most likely to have happened to you if if at all yeah i mean i i haven't ever had that exact thought i must say of the of the three i can more imagine it would be like a deep lying six sort of hanging back a little bit with people either side of you who are a little bit in front yeah because i can't imagine one person in the middle being like quite a way ahead of the other two if it's like two wingers i mean unless you're really striding forward unless one person is like in a bit of a rush to get somewhere or like you know you're an airport and one of them is like a little bit like edgier and it's like should we just crack on like yeah yeah let's we may as well just get to our gate now and they're sort of walking straight while they're flanked by the two people who are a bit more relaxed you don't want you don't want to be too square do you you don't mean to a flat three you've got to have you've You've got to think about the positions here.

34:58Yeah, yeah. Well, unless you're a back three, then that's sort of okay being a bit more flat. Shuffle over. Yeah, you want a gap.

35:06Charlie Eccleshare:You want one to be the sweeper, though, and have the game in front of them. I guess. And now I think about it, Dave, when placed in this situation, I think I do prefer the game to be in front of me. I do like to hang back and have people in front of me, whereas you're the opposite. If ever I've seen you on a night out after a cliches live show, you're an absolute target man in this situation. You are leading the absolute line. Often with a small man next to me. Don't talk about our live show attendees like that, please. That's fine. I enjoy it. Yeah, I don't know. So which of the scenarios that Bill Sims presented there, Charlie, was the funniest in the circumstance?

35:42Charlie Eccleshare:What's the most ridiculous thing to be thinking? I think having your mum and sister and thinking of him as a front three. Oh, OK. Well, just because a diamond is so hard. Like to actually imagine like walking directly in front of someone who's a bit behind you. Like that's that would be such a ludicrous situation to be like, walk, like don't walk right in front of me. That's obviously annoying. Walk to the side. But this is the thing when you're in a group of, say, I don't know, four or more, Dave, in a social context, you're walking from, I don't know, bar A to bar B. And you want to get a conversation going, but it's so difficult to kind of arrange yourselves in a way that gets that conversation going.

36:18Charlie Eccleshare:If you're, you know, far ends of the line and you're walking like a bunch of school kids up the road, that makes it quite difficult. So maybe football formation does come in handy here. Maybe some thinking needs to be done about this. You don't want to be too wide, do you? You need a narrow formation. Yeah. Sounds like you're defending rather than attacking. If you think, Charlie, of like, I don't know, a family walk, key characters in a traditional family walk being you, your mum, your dad, and then the in-laws on either side. So, yeah. So there's four of you. and you know you probably arrange yourself in a kind of essentially a square two at the back two in front and you're having your separate conversations that's kind of the only way to do things really two separate conversations you might have a kid going in and out that's in a free roll well that's what I think like yeah kids are more likely to go in like a diamond because I think a kid would like want to lead the way and be quite happy like turning their back and talking to someone behind them so I can see I can see four kids walking in more of a diamond what about the goalkeepers they're just a different breed aren't they they're just at the back they're on their own leave him he's fine he's got his headphones in sweeper keeper yeah exactly exactly he's knackered leave him alone for a bit lovely stuff from Bill Sims that is our listeners fascinations for this month we'll be back very shortly with your irritations

37:38find the biggest voices in sports on the sports social podcast network like under the car It's the only place to get down to the nitty-gritty of what really goes on in a football dressing room. Interview Footballers Weekly to hear the best stories straight from the horse's mouth. And we've got a new series coming out every Monday from the 3rd of August to the 21st of September. All you have to do, search under the cosh wherever you get your podcasts. Don't sleep on it. Sports Social Podcast Network. Find the biggest voices in sports on the Sports Social Podcast Network. like Not The Top 20 podcast with me, George Ellick and me, Ali Maxwell Join us on our podcast about the best football leagues in the world the EFL Want football to be like it was back in the day?

38:26No VAR and so much drama Search Not The Top 20 and listen wherever you get your podcasts

39:01Sports Social Podcast Network much everything else. Just search Liberal wherever you get your podcasts. Sports Social Podcast Network.

39:15Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

39:22Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is the listeners' Meza, Harlan, Dix for July. We've done your fascinations, now it's time for your irrational irritations. and we start with Michael Barton. My irritation of football is when pundits misuse the word instep. I mean, how many parts of the foot are there? Four, five, six? You've got your heel, your sole, your toe, the inside, outside and the instep, aka the laces. Seems to be a common misconception that it's the inside of the foot, particularly amongst world feedsmen like Hinchcliffe, Bridges and Hutchison. Does my head in. Now, I am fully prepared at this stage, Charlie, to be the only one on this podcast who has got this wrong all their life.

40:01Charlie Eccleshare:I never realised that the instep was the laces. I've always blindly assumed that when pundits say that, they mean the inside of the foot. Yeah, I have to say it's become, in football speak, instep has just come to mean inside of the foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fully what I would assume every time, yeah. He hits it lovely with the instep. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, sort of semantically makes sense, Dave, but did you know this? Did you know that the instep was the laces? I think I've made this mistake before, but I have been confused about it. Like I was aware that potentially I was doing it wrong.

40:33But yes, I've just Googled it now. Like it's not even a football thing. It's like a, it's an anatomical thing. The instep is the top of your foot.

40:42Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, part of the reason why this confusion might have come in my life, Dave, is the fact that you don't really use it in wider life. I mean, you know, you're having some, I don't know, your kids having some shoes fitted or something like that. No one ever talks about the instep because it's not really important. So I think we've just laboured under the assumption that it was the inside of the foot. But the waters are muddied even further by englandfootball.com, a website I've never quite understood the existence of. And it says the instep is the arched part of the top of the foot. It sits between the laces and the side of the foot.

41:09Charlie Eccleshare:So it's like the half space between the laces and the inside of your foot. I'm baffled. So, yeah, and that is often you do often see people, you know, like the Harry Kane's goal against Congo. The second goal was like a proper like instep. It wasn't because it wasn't complete top of the foot laces, but it wasn't a side foot. but it was in that little space where he still puts the power through. Right. For further clarification on this, Charlie, it continues. If you need help visualising this technique, explain that using the finesse shot on FIFA tends to prompt an in-step finish. But that's side foot, isn't it?

41:42Charlie Eccleshare:That's side foot, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and if in-step, which obviously it's used incorrectly, but there should be a word like that to talk about the inside of the foot that's just quicker than the inside of the foot. We need an alternative. but also if instep was the inside of the foot then surely you'd have the outstep as well yeah that's true it would mean to have an antagonist wouldn't it so in this step but yeah I don't know so yeah what we call the laces is actually the instep the stuff you belatedly learn from this podcast see also on Dreamland episode 27 the pronunciation of Proust I liked Proust Proust came out like Dave Proust it's fine James Ward Proust James Ward Proust who just remembers things by his sense of smell.

42:24Charlie Eccleshare:I don't mind being corrected by now. I've completely resigned myself to my level of intellect. But, Charlie, what goal do you think I tried to Google to prove that football thought instep was the inside of the foot? Ooh. What famously inside-of-the-boot goal was I looking for? Inside? I'm thinking of, like, almost one that's kind of passed into the corner. Give us an era. What? 2013, Premier League. A ludicrous goal. Is it a Suarez one? Jordan Henderson? It was against Wigan. Against Wigan? I don't know. It was Loic Remy. Loic Remy for QPR. Oh, yes. Okay, yeah, yeah. First time finish. Yes. I know the goal you mean.

43:08Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Huh. He sort of side-footed it with power, but it came from a very specific part of the inside of his foot and went into the top corner on the run. Worth looking up, Dave. Happy hunting grounds. No, it's not because it was a home, so it doesn't work at all. But yeah, Michael Barton, thank you for education. I think a lot of people out there, this isn't going to be like come of the hour. I think there's a lot of people out there who've had an absolute epiphany in this podcast, and I'm among them. Right, our second irritation for our listeners comes from 2016 Britain's Got Talent semi-finalist, Darren Altman.

43:37Hello, guys. Well, if you haven't discussed this already, I mean, I've got the ultimate football cliche for you, and I hate it. I just wish it would stop. I wish it would go away. Why do footballers, pundits, commentators, even presenters, before they make a point, they say, we talk about or you talk about. No one does it in everyday life. And it is just getting ridiculous. You know, we talk about fullbacks going wide. You know, we talk about bad refereeing decisions. You know, we talk about going one-on-one with the goalkeeper. No, we don't. No, we don't. Just make your point. Stop saying we talk about, you talk about.

44:16and even niche things. We talk about beating the counter press. Just make your point. No one says it in everyday life. No one. We talk about doing the school run. We talk about receiving an email to renew the car insurance. We talk about taking your girlfriend out for an anniversary meal. No one talks like that. No one says it in real life. Only people do it in football. Stop it. Make your fucking point and stop saying we talk about.

44:48Charlie Eccleshare:Very Nick Hancock. Yeah, it was. It would have been Nick Hancock, but I took out the extra fucking at the end just to save him. Charlie, this is definitely, definitely a punditry device. No question about it. Do you think it's more Neville or more Carragher? Well, it goes back. Andy Gray used to often say things like, you talk about people thrashing at it. So he was way ahead of the curve. And I think when he was doing it, he was almost saying, it was almost self-referential way because he would talk about that so when he says you he more meant like i talk about people thrashing at it really interesting origin for it then dave and i think charlie's bang on with this so andy gray was using it almost in kind of an instructive way almost like a an academic essay would be like all sort of i don't know ibid basically it's like you know we this has been documented before by other scholars and here is the thing we're talking about and it works for technique it says you talk about technique x and then and you suddenly summon all this kind of previous knowledge about what you might think about that particular technique but what it's mushroomed into in the kind of carrigan era is basically a prefixing pretty much anything with we talk about so what specific function does it serve now well i think it's you know darren's right obviously you don't really use this in nobody would use it in normal everyday life i'm trying to think if i do or not i fear i do i think the reason that it gets used in punditry is because these people do talk about these things endlessly so when they're bringing up psr again or when they're bringing up you know inverted fullbacks or pivots whatever it might be uh they've done it before they're used to doing it and they're sort of referencing the fact that like yeah you know we we we talk you know we talk about playing out from the back it's because they're constantly doing it so they kind of i sort of feel like they're sort of flagging like i know we talk about this a lot but and in in gray's case what he was doing he was saying we talk about people thrashing at it but what's happened here is that the person hasn't done that and i think there's an element of you're doing that as well You're like, you know, how often do we talk about systems, but actually in this, you know, like the Pugach thing, you know, we talk about systems until the cows come home, but actually it's about heart.

46:48Is that the same thing?

46:49Charlie Eccleshare:It's because he's directly referencing the discourse when he sort of fleshes it out. Like, you know, we talk all the time about pivots and inverted fullbacks, but does it serve the same function? Yeah. So what's a classic case in that? Like with Graves, we talk about people thrashing at it. With now, it would be what we talk about. But I still think you are then often drawing a contrast because you're saying we talk about fatigue a lot. But actually, this team have shown it doesn't need to be a decisive factor. It tees up a counterpoint, basically. It doesn't have to be, though. Because I think you can use it to underline something.

47:21You could see Gray or another co-comer saying, yeah, we talk about putting your foot through it. And my word, has he done that there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do it that way.

47:31Charlie Eccleshare:It reminds me of frequent conversations we have about, I don't know, potential MHD guests. and I'll say to Dave, I don't think they're right. And then Dave will say, you say that, but you say that, but. And then maybe it serves the same function. Actually, I'm about to completely disagree with you. But is there any discernible difference, Dave, between we talk about and you talk about? Is it like abandoning responsibility for the previous discourse? Maybe there isn't much of a difference between them. No, I think there is, because I think it is a sort of subtle way of disagreeing with someone if you use the you potentially.

48:03Again, I'm thinking of someone like, you know, Carragher might be making a point to Roy Keane on the overlap or something. And he might say, you know, you talk about discipline. It's sort of saying you always talk about this, but, you know, I want to make a different point sort of thing. Or I disagree with you.

48:19Charlie Eccleshare:Whereas the we talk about really strongly suggests this has been well documented. And it isn't necessarily a counterpoint that's about to follow. It's just this has been well documented. We're tired of talking about it. But that is the backdrop to what we are discussing here. It is that sort of MNF segment, isn't it? Yeah. It's like, you know, we talk about this system or this thing. It can be quite inclusive because it is like, you know, regular viewers will know this is something that we often go in on. We do it on the podcast all the time. We've spoken about this on the podcast before. And I feel like there's a duty to do it because it's ignorance if you don't reference the fact that we might be covering this ground again.

48:53Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know. I don't feel a massive responsibility to do it. But I think we've all uttered those words at some point. But, yeah, it's definitely a thing. and it's it's up there dave with the kind of pluralization of stuff like you know your messi's and your ronaldo's it definitely sort of serves that kind of padding out function it kind of makes your point look a little bit more deep and broad perhaps yeah and i think it's also something that if you hadn't noticed it now after listening to this you'll probably notice it all the time and that is the function of this podcast thank you darren altman you should have been a finalist in 2016 on the back of that should have you should have turned up with that they'll be like Simon Cowboys they do say that don't they that's very well observed right let's end our listeners irritations for July with this one from Adam Flight an irritation of mine is that I don't think there's ever been a goal described to me that I've not seen that I've understood I think especially when it comes to Sunday League if your friend comes back from a game and says oh I've scored this really nice goal and you're like oh what happened there's nothing they can say that could describe it well it's all like I had it sort of like in between the edge of the box and like the side of that.

50:03Like, what are you talking about? I don't understand. And then he's like, oh, I've kind of hit it. Like, and then because it's me and any of my mates who have got really Charlie-like ball knowledge, we're like, oh, do you remember that goal that, you know, the one that Suarez scored that one time where he kind of did, and then you're kind of like, yeah. And they're like, well, it's not really like that, but it's kind of similar. I don't think you could accurately describe a goal to someone and then be able to like draw it out. I don't think it's possible.

50:28Charlie Eccleshare:I really like this Charlie I think I've listened to a lot of people describing their Sunday league goals 90 % of them from my brother from a long long time ago and the longer it is a go the less interested I am in hearing about his technique for the goal him describing it to me this is definitely a thing isn't it yeah I mean I'm trying to think if I could either do a good job of describing it or if I could visualize it I mean the easiest with something like that and it probably just doesn't happen but if I think you there are shorthands that could make if I said to you like yeah and I've just done like an Henri finish into the corner yeah you'd all be able to visualise that very easily.

50:58I guess the point is,

50:59Charlie Eccleshare:yeah, there are a few, probably not that many people who could actually do that particularly effectively. I think the more succinct, the better. You don't need to go into too much detail, really, unless there's a, you know, very specific set of circumstances. Just say, oh yeah, scored a great goal today, just outside the box, top corner. Yeah, so you've got to be, what tense are you going for as well? You want to be breezy about it, Charlie, right? You want to be, you don't want to be arrogant, but you want to say, yeah, I just did this and then you'll get the reaction you want. You don't want to go too chronological.

51:27Charlie Eccleshare:You don't want to be talking about the entire passage of play. Yeah, but then you've got that decision on tents. Are you going for the sort of like the balls come across? I've just stood him up. Yeah, I think the football tents comes in handy here. I like it. But it does make you look a little bit more self-involved if you do use it. Which there is a caution there. I've just let the ball, the ball just come across me. Lovely. And I've just bent it into the corner. I've taken it on the instep. Yeah. Oh, really? Side foot? No. You remember that Loic Remy goal? Yeah. Oh, yeah. OK, yeah. I can see it now in my mind.

52:00Charlie Eccleshare:It is a bit, I mean, I don't know. All roads lead to this sometimes, Dave, but it is a little bit like people telling you about the dream they had last night. And you've got to summon the enthusiasm in the reaction to go, oh, yeah. I think high bar. It's got to be a really high bar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How good a goal does it need to be? I mean, let's assume you are a fairly regular goal scorer, Dave. how good a goal would it need to be to warrant describing it to your mate two days later? Well, I think there's an inverse relationship between the amount of goals you score and where this bar should be.

52:32If you're a Sunday League bagsman, yeah, I scored another one today, did you? Yeah, great. But if you're like me, I've scored four goals in my Sunday League career ever, over a decade, then I'm going to tell you. If I score another one, I will be telling you about it. Significance as well. I remember scoring a goal that won my team, the league on the Sunday, then coming in on Monday morning and obviously telling everyone and our old editor asking me to describe it in that kind of like historic present football tense, which I was obviously more than happy to do.

53:02Charlie Eccleshare:It's weirdly difficult, even for men who have grasped the language of football as well as we have, Charlie, to describe our goals. Shouldn't we all just be better at doing it? I feel like it can be quite difficult. Your memory sometimes fails you, perhaps not yours. But I mean, sometimes just little elements of it just fall by the wayside and you plug the gaps when something is slightly embellished and you're annoyed with yourself for doing that because the goal was good enough. I think, you know, Sunday League players just generally should just be better at describing what they did. We were all football men.

53:28It's weird though, isn't it? Because you've not seen the goal in a way. Maybe. Yeah, like you've not had the best vantage point. So like you might not have been aware that, you know, that someone just missed nicking the ball off you or that someone else was in space. Like you've got your sort of like, it's like ref cam or whatever. you're right there you might ask a third party ask one of the subs or something or a teammate or the ref and that's why no footballer has ever given a good answer to just talk us through the goal yeah yeah it's true that is true they don't have the best view of it

53:59Charlie Eccleshare:there you go from Sunday league to Premier league footballers just don't have it in them to replay their own memories their own actions I love that great stuff thanks to the listeners for that one it was a bumper selection so it was really difficult to get it down to the last six if you do send one in and it doesn't get used don't worry it may well get used in the forthcoming month I've got the long list still there nothing gets deleted yes thanks again to our listeners we'll have a week off next week we'll be back on Tuesday August the 4th Dreamland episode 28 will however be out before the end of the month thanks to you Charlie Eccleshare thank you thanks to you David Walker maybe I could do a solo episode like I did on the England pod next week just on my own while I'm sort of yeah got a child hopefully born by then and Adam's in his yurt yeah you can hold the fort do a Q &A how stressed would that make you Adam from your yurt if you knew that I was in solo charge of the podcast for a week.

54:48Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know. Again, it would be like one of those episodes where it's just one or two characters locked somewhere and they have to have a chat for half an hour and let's see how it goes. It would be considered canon, but some people might enjoy it. That's all right. Dave Walker unfiltered. Go for it. I've got no power. You've got the keys to the kingdom. You've got the keys to the upload. You'll be fine. If you want to do it, that would be amusing. Or would you get more stressed if I got like Jake Farrell and Doc Brown? The FOMO then would kick in. Well, I would be less annoyed than if you did it on your own because that would be utterly weird.

55:19Charlie Eccleshare:Who are you going to bat it around with? That would be great, Dave, to just do that and then it would pop up on our notifications on the Tuesday morning or Thursday morning and be like, oh, new cliches is dropped. Would it be an adjudication panel? What are you doing? Maybe I should get George and Ali and she do an England pod takeover. No, you dare. That's your little thing. You don't cross streams. But finally, I'll be able to live out my fantasy of actually listening to this podcast as a listener. So that's what I've always wanted. Anyway, good luck with that. Thanks to everyone for listening again.

55:47Charlie Eccleshare:See you soon.

56:14and five-star hospitality. Search Turkey on TripAdvisor now to book your ultimate golf holiday in the Turkish Riviera.