Snake pits and minefields, the shadow follow-on, and catching on camera

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1:55What about that? It wasn't just one of those where it may stick or it may not. Remember the name! There's so much elegance about it. And yet it was quite brutal. Oh, he's up and over! What a river! What a good fish of the home! Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, here we go again. Cricket Clichés, the podcast about the esoteric and absurd ways in which we talk about the esoteric and absurd game. That is cricket. Coming up in episode five, shadow batting. It's the second innings. From motorways to shit tips, it's the pitch. is 10mm too much the G's curator is in the dock and foreshortening there's always a catch

2:53here we go episode 5 a star-studded cast Charlie Reynolds Nick Miller Tickers is back it's lovely to see you all and in the aftermath of an England victory which is extraordinary 5 ,468 days St England last won a test match in Australia my mates arrived in Australia at 4.30 in the afternoon on Christmas Eve never having seen a test match here 72 hours later they thought that this was the new normal although that wasn't really very normal was it that test match extremely not normal no and yeah maybe we'll get on to sort of meltdowns and so on good fun it was good fun Balmyama were in good voice and it meant that people had three days to go and look at another bloody Australian river which is what everybody apparently needs to do when they're here good old Australian rivers anyway we are five episodes in and Nick Hughes has pointed this out he says you guys you're five episodes in and you chaps are set don't give it away cheaply now at what point does a batter become set for me it's consecutive force to reach 30 after scratching around and a couple of streaky boundaries early on i think this is a deeply problematically difficult question which we've got to try to answer rapidly and i don't know how to do it because if you're five or 40 you face a load of balls but you're clearly not set if you're 21 off nine there's no way you're set i think it changes player to player as well.

4:28Joe Root is set when he's one off one. He was born set. He's always set. He arrives set. And then someone like Oli Pope, he could be 20 off 30 and you think nope. He is not in any way set here. I don't think he's ever set. He always, even when he's... Is he the anti-Root? Yeah he is. Even when he's got 100 he's not set. I think even that inning's in India. When he made like 196 and won the game single-handedly. Never really felt like he was set at any point. There's a nervousness, isn't there? When you're watching him, oh, this could go wrong. Yeah. For the bloke on 184. But is that nervousness though?

5:08Because I mean, you might say the same thing about Harry Brook. You might say he's never set because at any moment he might just decide that he wants to play the ball by turning his back on it. His brain is never set. The monkey clanging symbols in his brain could take over at any second. I'll tell you 100 that was never set. Charlie, you'll remember this one. You remember Rory Bird's 100 at Edgebaston in 2019? Unfortunately, yes. I've never seen a man get 100 and at no point be set. That was kind of not set in a different way, though, because Oli Pope is never set in the way that you could think he's going to just catch him practice to play one of those jabby cuts or something, and he'll get out.

5:51Roy Burns never looked set in that innings because he never looked like he was going to score any more runs. Not necessarily that he was going to get out, but yeah, it was just all very strange innings. But yeah, not set in a slightly different way, I think. So what is the quintessential set? I definitely agree with the listener that it comes, you know, a boundary, I think, is a kind of, I don't think you necessarily need consecutive ones, although that's a nice bonus. and I think I quite like it after kind of a build up of some cautious but kind of untroubled defence and then they hit a 4. I don't think a 6 really works, I think it's too flashy I don't think you kind of think it's slightly worrying and the 4 ideally one that breaks the shackles The breaking the shackles that is a very important moment but can I give you an example of where scoring fours and I think I'm on your page here Charlie which is when Jamie Smith hits more than one four consecutively that's when he's about to get out so the other day when he hit the fourth four it was a nailed uncertainty was going to be out off the next ball so that consecutive boundaries don't necessarily befit a certain player you know like two boundaries for Jeffrey boycott and he's unbelievably sad i mean he's not going to get out for another three years right the jamie smith hits two boundaries then it's uh-oh where's he going to try to hit the next one to the moon uh no that's way too close uh alpha centauri it's like just utter absurdity that takes over i'm trying to think about the quintessential set though because where that where that comes from is to me a kind of like lovely nostalgic notion of the 1980s it's something like Mike Gatting you know who would look a little bit ill at ease to start with and he'd like thrust the pad down or there's another one Ricky Ponting who would forever thrust the pad down he would look really uncertain in his first sort of 18 balls or so wouldn't he and then by the time he was set it was that his his body wasn't jerking around with quite such determination because we've all been there when you first go out to bat you're so determined move your feet get to the pitch of the ball do these things and when you're doing that you're not set and on the very few occasions i have been set and they are really few but i can remember every single one of them i stopped moving my feet at all i just used my hands and and i think that is actually when you know that a player is set and it's why Joe Root looks set because he mostly actually uses his hands he just mostly manipulates the ball doesn't he and that's what we really mean I think when a player is set maybe it's when like the first time they play their shot really well like when Root plays a little sort of dab um through kind of point or whatever or like yeah has to cook a sort of bit of a really authoritative back cut something like that where you kind of go well well he's he's he's nailed that shot now, so he's definitely set now.

9:02Yeah, there's definitely something like an Ian Bell cover drive. Yeah. But I think there's also a slightly different to that, thinking specifically of Cook, if he actually got one down the ground, that's always a good sign if Cook's scoring there. So actually a shot of authority that isn't their trademark can work as well. I think that is the step beyond set. He's set and then he plays, then it's one of those. And now it's bed and breakfast. Yeah, exactly. Yes, there you go. So, I mean, I don't know if we're set or not, because that's basically what this is about. Is this podcast set? I think we're Ollie Pope or Harry Brook.

9:47I'd like to think not. I'd like to think we're Hanif Mohamed and that we're going to just go on and on and on, just dabbing the ball into the offside, finding a gap between points and extra cover. Now then, last week, we talked a lot about shadow batting. It was enormous fun, and it struck a chord because there was a polarised debate came up on the podcast about Dan Gallen and how he was willing to get out shadow batting. And I found this absolutely startling. Every other normal human being on the podcast alongside me did the same. But we've had a voice note from a listener, Hugh, in Hamilton in New Zealand.

10:35Kia ora, guys. You fellas lambasted poor Dan last week for getting out while shadow batting. And I am jumping to Dan's defence. I have lost many a wicket in my kitchen, in my lounge, on my deck. shadow batting mate so i'm right there with you often uh it's glenn mcgrath who's got me so understandable and nothing nothing shameful about it uh where i've just been squared up and i've nicked one off the shoulder back out in front of my chest nicked one off the shoulder and it's gone to second or third slip occasionally shaib will york me and i'm falling over my own feet and he's cleaned up my middle peg and that's cartwheeling back towards the boundary The shadow gloves come off.

11:20The shadow helmet is taken off. The shadow bat is tucked under my arm. And I give a nod to shadow Shaib or shadow Glenn McGrath. And I walk off to the shadow pavilion. It's always after a pretty good innings, don't get me wrong. So I'm right there with you, mate. Now look, right, part of me is thinking that it's because he's a Kiwi, all right? So they're so humble that they cannot allow themselves to score so many runs. They have to get out. I'd love to know how many Hugh is out for when he's, you know, cleaned up numerous times by Glenn McGrath or Shoa Bactar. Has he made it to... Was he set when he was out?

11:59He seemed to... Was he set? Yeah. I mean, he seemed to suggest that he had got some runs there. But to make this a regular occurrence, I'm still not on this page, right? I said to you guys, I was more rattled listening to the podcast and being on it because it just seems the most natural thing in the world to me that you, of course you shadow Nick. I shadow Nick off. My brother was furious, I have to tell you this. He got really angry with me in the pub. I wasn't even on the episode, mate. He was then demonstrating the precise way he gets out nicking off. And I'm the same. I mean, it's never my fault.

12:37It's credit to the bowler. The shadow bowler has absolutely done me. It's very similar to Hugh's. It's back of a length, squared up, turned into an S. and it's nicked off to second. Sometimes you've just got to take your shadow hat off to the shadow bowler. Get a shadow stride in, for fuck's sake, or shadow leave it. I mean, honestly to God. He's shadow pushed me back with a couple of good ones. I just don't understand how we can be expected to beat these countries if, in our wildest dreams, we're getting out to them. I mean, that's not how wildest dreams are supposed to work, right? I think this is the problem with the internet.

13:11The problem. Well, you know, it's increasingly bringing together dangerous subcultures People who nick off while shadow batting You know, people who nick off while shadow batting I mean, I don't want to be accused of kink shaming But I think, you know, the madness has to stop Glenn McGraw is perfectly capable of getting you out in real life He probably still is So you don't need to give him the satisfaction in shadow cricket as well It's madness Have some self-respect we're gonna have to talk about this when me and gallon are both here so we're not just getting picked on i think it might be yeah no look i've been forced by my producer to read out other people who agree with dan gallon and you tickers so jack marshall's been in touch he says it's christmas day morning i find myself messaging the cricket cliches podcast with fervent support for dan gallon's nicking off while shadow batting when in the kitchen with spatula in hand correct tick that's good i often find myself hapless to avoid a rip-storting length ball which rears up and catches very specifically the shoulder of my shoulder of the spatula causing me to utter a minor oh and drop my hand suddenly out of elite batsmanship surprise at the quality of the delivery i also mimic a minor head jolt as i come forwards only to be shocked by the bounce that all of those things are good right but you shouldn't be getting the nick so you can do all of those things without getting the edge you see so like this is out this is the point of shadow batting you're supposed to like take the spatula and then you're on a you're on a really tricky pitch we're going to come to it you're on a minefield you're on a snake pit we'll come to that later on it rears up but you drop your hands brilliantly at the last minute because you read it off the pitch you're doing that wonderful snake shapes of robin smith style avoidance of a Patrick Patterson bouncer or similar, you don't get the edge.

15:07That's the point. I think we've all got the Robin Smith dodge out of the way in our shadow locker. No one's saying that you don't have that as well. I just think it speaks to us as kind of some deep psychological problems that you are in this world that you have constructed in your own head and yet you're still failing. What's, I mean, what's going on? I'm not saying it's normal.

15:36Sounds like it's increasingly normal, Tickers. I'm genuinely worried about the nature of the world. We're scratching the surface of some troubled psyches out here. Which, I mean, perhaps this is the purpose of a podcast about the language of cricket, but yeah. I think the other thing for me as well with Shadowbatten, as well as nicking off, which I do do in real life, when I'm Shadowbatten, I play shots that I can't play and wish I could. in real life. So the rest of my shadow batting does fit with the very narrow view that Norcross has of what shadow batting can be. Mate, I play unbelievable shots.

16:13Extraordinaries take place. People are shadow nicking off at the other end all the bloody time. I'm having to shadow steal the strike. I'm having to protect some of the weakest elements of this team. Carrying your shadow bat. Yeah. Oh, I'm taking a few on the body. I'm shadow taking a few on the body. I'm brine-closing the crap out of it. I'm just not getting out. I wonder whether this is the genesis of Bazball, that some people were shadow batting, and they're shadow batting against peak Glenn McGrath. They've got one that they can't play. They nick off. So then that leads to the psychological process where you think, well, there's going to be one with a name on it at some point, so I may as well just have a swing.

16:55And this is where we are now. Is shadow batting to blame? Yeah, well, blame. I don't know, it depends what your view of basketball is as a whole. But yes, really, yes. So wait a minute, though, Nick. Are we to understand from this that Zach Crawley is in the team because he's a man who did get out shadow batting? If I was Brendan McCollum, having had this conversation now and realised how really deeply disturbed so many of you are, I would, before letting anybody in my team, I'd say, have you ever nicked off shadow batting? and if they had they're not coming in my fucking dressing room get out in the shadow realm here I think we have to the people on our side Daniel have to own Zach Corley because there is a man who was never ever nicked off while shadow batting he still looks astonished every time it happens there is no other explanation as to why he plays that shot for every ball he faces beyond the fact that he has never nicked off shadow batting So, I don't know, I'm almost, I'm not turning around here, but I'm seeing the kind of logic to it, because maybe it teaches you a little bit of humility.

18:07Do you think Jeff Boycott nicked off shadow batting? No. No, no, no, no. No. Do you think any elite cricketer has ever nicked off shadow batting? Steve Smith strikes me as a man who has actually nicked off shadow batting. You know, there's that thing of like, you know, you shadow, you play a bad shot and then you play a different one. Steve Smith is the only batter in history who looks worse when he's shadow batting than actual batting. When he's playing the shots that aren't real, he looks bloody awful. I've got some more here. I've got to read them out because this is a confessional. Thank you very much, by the way, everybody, for your contribution.

18:48Steve Curtis. I too have snicked off an absolute jaffer of a shadow delivery with a rolling pin. I'm interested in your thoughts on other elements of shadow cricket. In my long lost playing days, emphasis on lost, I operated as a medium-paced buffet bowler. But still, to this day, my shadow spin bowling turns at right angles, even on the flattest of shadow tracks, and is completely unplayable. I'm also partial to shadow fielding. Do you think anyone has ever shadow carried on the drinks, stroke shadow brought on fresh gloves?

19:23That is an absolute beauty. I mean, I think we can only live in hope that, well, after the Cardiff Ashes Test in 2009, was it? You know, the Bilal Shafayat has inspired a kind of influx of people bringing on gloves and drinks. Bilal Shadow Yat. Tickers, I'm sure you must have, and in fact, in my head, I can picture you shadow keeping. Yeah, that's what I do. I do shadow wicket keeping probably more than shadow batting. And I'll say this, I'm fucking flawless. I will say that. So you never drop one when you're shadow keeping? No, my shadow keeping is absolutely elite. Like, straight in, absolutely beautiful.

20:04Leg side stumpings, left, right and centre? Lots of leg side stumpings in the shadow keeping world. Are you Alex Carey and the crap out of it? How fast a bowler do you shadow stand up to? He's got nothing. He's got nothing on shadow tickets behind the stumps. Carey. an absolute fraud be up to everything me and it just melts it melts in I think it's fair to say that no one has ever shadow carried on the drinks or shadow brought on fresh gloves but it's a lovely notion and one that I am about I'm 56 now I suppose I should probably start to get realistic and maybe shadow carry the drinks Arjun Gholay says following on for the shadow backing chat it seems like madness to me that anyone would shadow bat against spin.

20:55This is an interesting one. I like this idea. Am I the only one who shadow bats purely against medium fast away swing, allowing for a good mix of drives and leaves? The thought of being chopped in half or cleaned up by an inducker in the kitchen scares me. I think shadow batting to spin is a sort of exclusive, you're coming down the pitch kind of thing. Yeah. Do you need space for that? So you need like a corridor? You'd need a little bit of space, but you'd take a couple of skips down and stick one over long arm. I think that's, I'm not sure. Maybe you could, maybe like a back cut to a long hop or something.

21:33Yeah. A bit of a forward press and then back. Yeah, I think I get a bit bogged down against the shadow spin. I'm not sure I've got a very expansive game. It's all kind of, you know, forward defences and maybe the odd late cut. but I don't really yeah I don't I need the I need pace on the ball I mean Gallin and mentalists I mean this is one step short of getting out I guess oh no in my head they've brought the shadow spinner on I'm gonna get stuck here shadow bog down one of the funniest things I've heard fantastic

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23:52I think the last word on shadow batting, though, should go to Bryn Evans, who's been in touch, to say, if I'm on a sufficiently quiet railway platform, I will run the gamut of shots with my Somerset CCC umbrella. If the platform is long enough and empty enough, I'll even dance down the pitch for a straight drive six. That is the spirit, Bryn. And that is where we are going to leave shadow batting for this week. Although I strongly suspect, as I think Tick has pointed out, that we could just rename this podcast Shadow Batting Clichés and do about 350 episodes on that alone. So please keep the contributions coming.

24:30Last show of the run next week. Can you believe it? We're nearly there. We're nearly done. And we're looking for something very specific. Please tell us your favourite sound in cricket. it could be leather on willow it could be the ball hitting the stumps even a particularly memorable crowd noise a scream it could be the lot it's probably not the balmy army or maybe it is if so make the case we'll judge that not you send your suggestions for your favorite cricketing sound or any other cricket related fascinations and frustrations to i know this is a little bit confusing football cliches.com forward slash cricket now then we've got to talk about all things pitch related because the boxing day test it was quite something and there was only one topic of conversation in the aftermath um the bbc website's headline before we got stuck in said england rolled for 110 on chaotic day in melbourne rolled for 110 because we talked about this earlier about from a skittling or a bundling is that accurate is that a rolling were they rolled i felt they were skittled i i thought skittled initially i that was my my sense of it but um i did quite like rolled i think rolled there's a there's a sort of implied predictability about rolled england rolled for 100 they couldn't couldn't have had either australia innings as rolled.

25:59There's a sense that you know this roller is coming and over it goes. I liked rolled I have to say because I was skittled initially. Normally when you think of something being rolled you think of a flat deck but I would say to be completely properly rolled you can't have an absolutely magnificent 41 from Harry Brook in the middle of it. Yeah maybe. You know what I mean Nick? So you want top score to be 23 or something? I don't want a partnership above 18. Yeah, I think that's a fair point. The flatness of rolled requires a flatness of scores rather than a standout performer in the middle of it.

26:43I think that is a fair point. I think they were skittled. I think they were skittled. 20 wickets on Boxing Day. 20. 16 more on day two of the test. There was gnashing, wailing, tearing of garments, near-existential meltdown about the track, the surface, the deck, the pitch, the wicket, whatever you call it. It's arguably the most important factor in any game of cricket and often dominates the conversation. Former England captains Mike Atherton and Nasser Hussain are enjoying their more relaxed schedule in Australia this time around. And they had their say on the Sky Sports Cricket Podcast. Just a bizarre day really.

27:23I mean obviously you start with the conditions. 10 mils of grass on the pitch which is the most of any of the pitches that we've seen so far in this Ashes series. And in the last four years here at the MCG this has been the most bowler friendly surface. The groundsman here has obviously left more grass on the pitch. Give him his official title by the way. Executive Manager of Turf. Thank you very much. The Executive Manager of Turf. get it right today. Perth here and the Gabba now have the highest seam movement anywhere in the world since the last Ashes. So they knew what was coming here. Was it too much?

28:00I mean, it did a fair bit, didn't it? The best players are struggling. You have to say the conditions are very much in the bowler's favour. I mean, it wasn't a minefield or a snake pit. Okay. Straight off the back of that peter wajdner i don't know how to pronounce your name peter w-a-j-d-n-e-r spell it differently as well as sash srivasan who spells a perfectly reasonable name what's the difference they claim between a minefield and a snake pit and this is a terrific question because this has been going on for a long long time the minefield and the snake pit someone kick off tell me what is the difference To me, a minefield is more unpredictable.

28:43It's those pitches where test matches got abandoned in the West Indies where there's huge cracks in them and stuff where it would kind of hit someone's nose off a length. Oh, is that a minefield? They were corrugated. Oh, interesting. Minefield's about fast bowling, aren't they? Because minefield is full of explosions, right? Whereas snake pits, there's something a bit more devious, a bit more flicking of the tongue. I don't know why, but it sort of feels like it's spinny. So whenever my... I used to play with a guy called Russell Clayton, who was a wonderful man, maniac. And the moment the ball turned, he'd go, Oh, vipers, there's vipers, there's vipers in the pitch.

29:27And so I kind of assumed that snake pits spin, minefields explode hit you in the face off the length yeah i think there's yeah there's there's something about like the speed of movement that a minefield happens very quickly and very dramatically i think as well like with minefield i have the sense that that when people talk about minefields of pitches it's more often to say it's not a minefield it's no minefield and actually the minefield is quite rare but there's definitely like a snake pit there's a sort of there's that sort of deception about it there's the sneakiness of it that that idea with a spinner is trying to deceive you and make you make a mistake and i feel like the the snake pit feels feels much more spinny to me but then that gets confusing because a green mamba is not a snake pit oh wow oh hello Yes.

30:27The green mamba is a very seeming pit. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Because it all comes back to the book of Genesis, doesn't it? As things so often do. I was saying that just this morning, actually. But now you mentioned it, it is the deception of the serpent, isn't it? Yeah. That has us in mind of the spin. But you're totally right. The green mamba is a seeming one. And, you know, I think what we had actually was a green mamba. It wasn't a snake pit or a minefield because it was actually a deceiving steamer's paradise. When we're talking about the ones that you're talking about, Nick, the West Indies ones, they are minefields.

31:07They've got unevenness of bounds. They might have a crack, but they often have ridges. And that is a minefield. And that is where the bowlers, if it hits it on the top of the ridge or the bottom of the ridge, you have no idea whether it's going to go underneath or above. So that's the minefield element. whereas this no one was going to bowl an over of spin on this I mean at the G were they no one was going to get anywhere near spin but it was deceitful I think you've nailed it Tickers I think it's the green member I think Athers and Nass have completely missed the open goal it's the green member which is also a snake pit but is not a snake pit the green member is where the twain meet it is there we go Well, do you know what it reminds me of?

31:54It's Shane Warne's great dictum that if it'll seem, it'll spin. It's just we never get to find out because if it really seems, there's no point in finding out if it spins. Because it's quicker when seamers do it. So let's just go with that. Althurs and Nass had a lot of fun with the job title Executive Manager of Turf, which I think we can all agree is one of the more overblown names for a grounds person you'll ever hear. Here's Aussie cricket commentator and podcaster Adam Collins explaining the special place pitches have in his country's lexicon. We are obsessed with pitches here in Australia.

32:37The very fact that we do press conferences with the ground staff speaks volumes. We all talk about how many millimetres of grass is on the pitch, what type of grass it is. We're all amateur horticulturalists. people who love test cricket do not want two-day test matches it's as simple as that so there will be the blowtorch on the curator we're the only country in the world who calls the groundsman the curator because we think of the pitch as like an artistic pursuit i'm going to defend colo here because i think what he's being is ironic what he's basically saying is that australia is insane but at the same time like fair play because in england we call them groundsmen and so like Do you remember Lee Fortis was really horribly hounded by Indian journalists in the Oval, wasn't it?

33:23And one of them said, you're just a groundsman. Players, wasn't it? There was a player during the day before the game. It was the players that said it, and then all the journalists came round it and then wanted to go, right, explain yourself. I don't know what just means in this situation, although I think we all know what they meant by that. But it's a bloody difficult job. It's an incredibly complicated scientific thing. And so Australians calling their man curator or whatever this nonsense is, executive, what was it? Executive manager of turf. Yeah. Sounds overblown. But we've all worked in proper jobs at various times in our lives, haven't we?