Spurs circling the drain, European hangover defiance & farmers taking penalties

19:35Charlie Eccleshare:Bruno Fernandes, Dave, broke the Premier League assists record with one of the goals he set up against Brighton. Lots of slow motion replays and close-ups have proved, to some degree of doubt, that Dorgu's header came off the bar and then in off the glove of Bart Verbruggen and therefore Bruno Fernandes shouldn't get the assist. I love this shit. I mean, it was petty enough, the assist stuff. And I was on the fence about how much I cared about it as a thing. But this has tipped me over the edge. I now love it. Right. I thought it looked like quite a thumping header from the corner. Yeah, it did.

20:06Charlie Eccleshare:I glanced at it and thought, what a header. It's like Rude Hullet, 88. And then unfortunately, yeah, it pinged off the bar, in off the glove of Verbruggen. But Fernandes has been given the assist. and you think, well, how stringent should they be with this stuff, Charlie? Like, should VAR get involved? Because FPL people really care about this stuff. Yeah, I mean, that's the dubious goals panel, isn't it? Dubious assist panel. Exactly. Yeah, by extension. It's funny to just on, like, when Henry, it's funny how, like, things work out because when Henry initially set this record in 2002-2003 season on the final day, he was going for the golden boot with Van Nistelrooy, lost by a goal and was praised by how unselfish he was because he got three assists on the final day some of which like you know he could have just kept going for goal right but like that's a record that has like stood the test of time which no one cared about the time whereas like what's another golden boot to Thierry Henry but um yeah you know he was reward you know good karma for him but by extension what's going to be the thing that turns out actually Bruno Fernandes you know did that was more significant actually he got like a an extra pre-assist in this game or something or there's another record he's inadvertently broken or set bruno fernandez also picked up the premier league player of the season award dave how do you feel about the premier league player of the season award it was so distant third in the list of you know men's domestic uk individual football awards but i guess they've got to have one haven't they really well i saw i got like a notification when that was announced and i initially thought oh are they announced the pfa player of the year have they and then realized no this is just the premier league's own award yeah um who votes for this how does how is this decided is it some sort of fan vote is it is it richard masters is it not the fans not the fans this isn't fanalysis i don't i think it's a fairly stringent uh procedure but i was not sure it's massively needed um it's never really caught on as a thing charlie as well there doesn't be any currency to it whatsoever could you name the last 10 i couldn't name any i mean i could guess them but when did it start?

22:04Is it like a fairly new innovation? I can't believe it's always been there. Maybe it has. According to Wikipedia, the recipient is chosen by a panel assembled by the league's sponsors consisting of members of some football governing bodies, the media and fans. So I don't know. It's a bit of a mishmash. It has been around since 1994 apparently. So not the first couple of seasons. Yeah. How weird. The season I got into Premier League. That's really nice to only start there. Let's pick out, like, Juninho, Paulista won it in 96-97. That's quite nice. I don't think he won any of the big ones that year, did he?

22:41Okay. Kudos to it then. But this is a bit silly. In 2001-2002, Freddie Jumbo got it and he had a great run in but he wasn't the Premier League player of the season that season.

22:50Charlie Eccleshare:Wow. Is it slightly more hipstery than the Premier League player of the season? Or reactionary. Yeah. Okay, maybe. I enjoyed this from Yellow Pack Gym. Sky Sports injecting some excitement into Fulham's opening goal against Newcastle. These teams were 11th and 13th at kickoff. And they said lift off at Craven Cottage on the final day. Lift off in a game between teams who were 11th and 13th at kickoff, says Yellow Pack Jim. Not for me. I agree, Charlie. Yes, I don't think that. Nothing's lifted off. I think that's muscle memory kicking in. Yeah. Elsewhere, Dave, Forrest versus Bournemouth on Sky 1.

23:24Charlie Eccleshare:What an indignity that is. Is that worse than being on Sky Sports Chess or wherever it is? It's a nice sort of continuation of Sky 1's football heritage from Dream Team, isn't it? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sky 1, what a strange concept it was. But I really enjoyed this. I can't believe we had to wait until the final day, or the final knockings of the final day. In fact, it came from Thomas Theakston. Brighton versus Manchester United. Glenn Murray on co-coms. And just wait for the demonym. Swept in by Fernandes. Lenny, Euro rising. And it comes back off the crossbar.

24:02actually takes just a little nick of a Brighton player should be a corner it's a great touch

24:08Charlie Eccleshare:I think it's Costoulas just doesn't know an awful lot about it just skims off the top of the young Greekman's head

24:23Charlie Eccleshare:that's not something we would make up the Greekman The Greekman. What's going on? I can't believe he went for that as his instinctive demonym. That's mad. Greekman. That is amazing. It must have been like he was going for the young Greek and then was like, oh, is that how you say it? That sounds a bit weird. Yeah, it's just the problem with some of these. Yeah, the Greek, the Japanese, the Portuguese. The young Greek. The young Greek. The German. Greekman's superb. Anyway, that's it for part one. We'll be back very shortly.

25:05Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

25:13Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. Dreamland episode 23 is out now. Episode 24 in the can as well. So that's a whole year of Dreamland episodes now available. and we'll be coming very soon with the World Cup Dreamo 2-parter before the tournament starts as well. So you've got that to look forward to. If that sounds appealing, you can sign up for just£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show, plus other things as well. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. This Thursday's episode, by the way, will be the listeners' mes at Harland Dix for May.

25:50Charlie Eccleshare:If you want to get involved in that, send us a 30-second voice note about your very specific footballing fascination or irritation. It can be a sight, a sound, a smell, a spectacle, a stimulation, absolutely anything, and we'll select the best six. You can just DM me or you can send it to footballcliches at gmail.com, but please get them in. I'm excited to hear what your hang-ups are for May. Right, down to the championship we go, and it's a welcome back to the big time for Hull City. Delighted that Gary Weaver was on duty for the big game, Dave, and it was a 95th minute winner from Olly McBurney, which was worth anywhere between£170 million and£250 million, depending on who you decide, whose hyperbole you decide to go with.

26:30Charlie Eccleshare:But Gary Weaver remains priceless. It's an incredible silence to gold ratio here. Sad to see that he's on board with the silence after the goal, kind of new wave, but he does deliver afterwards. You hit a coward. He's made room for the cross here. And it's smuggled in!

26:52It had to be Ole McBerney!

27:18Oli McBurney he's got the eye of the Tiger and he could be taking the Tigers back to the Premier

27:34league Burrish hearts ripped out in front of the nation

27:42Charlie Eccleshare:brutal way to describe at the end there Dave that's incredible yeah wow I mean I just want Weaver to just launch into it there really the first mention of it had to be Olic McBurney just go just go for it weaver but then i guess of any commentator he you know he's so famed for his the planting the flag and the references and and all that stuff maybe maybe the 21 seconds is him just going oh um windows 2008 um tigers yeah tiger yeah yeah that's good didn't have anything prepared yeah 21.8 seconds charlie was the was the length of the second significant silence there he gave himself three silences which is quite incredible but yeah in front of the nation uh yeah that's that's pretty harsh but yeah good stuff from weaver uh but the um the trio of promoted clubs charlie hull ipswich coventry it's a very untested trio it doesn't feel like a canonical trio of promoted clubs but i don't mind it who's going to be the breath of fresh air there or if anything i mean ipswich we sort of know what they're about so i guess they could be because if they were good you know they sort of played the right way didn't they which I probably annoyed people last time they weren't good at it they weren't good enough at it but if they did there is the potential under McKenna can they ever be as much of a breath of fresh air as Ipswich were in 2000 the ultimate breath of fresh air I mean Coventry have the most potential don't they yeah because also there's like a lot of there'll be so much interest with Frank Lampard if he does stay amid whatever's going on is Lampard too much of a known figure to be a breath of fresh airman he himself is yeah But the team could be.

29:16Yeah. I don't think he couldn't be described in those terms.

29:19Charlie Eccleshare:It's just so hard from a football perspective to be a breath of fresh air, as we've previously established. But Coventry, I mean, we've talked before, Dave, about how do clubs really bridge that gap with the money they've suddenly come into? How do they really renew these squads for a proper assault on Premier League survival? And Coventry have been linked with 35-year-old Jorginho Wijnaldum. And I just think that must be so tempting to get an old timer in who's got Premier League experience. The Granit Xhaka model. Yeah, I was going to say, it worked with Xhaka, didn't it? Yeah. There were a few Hull fans who were in the replies on Saturday after that game.

29:56Because earlier this season, when we were talking about Sunderland in the same terms as this, we kind of dismissed Hull a little bit as saying they're not as exciting to the Premier League neutral as Sunderland, even though they've been out of the Premier League for the same amount of time. So, yeah, there are a few people going, oh, are we going to be fresh, are we? But yeah, fair play. You won the game. But come on. They also do have, you know, history of breath of fresh air. One of the ultimate, that first four rounds season.

30:21Charlie Eccleshare:Can they live up to it? Yeah. I think it's a great sub-genre of the Premier League. Just genuine teams who you look back on and think were much better than they are, then they somehow got relegated. Your Hulls, your Blackpools, for example. Isn't it like Xhaka, though? Isn't that such a... And Fijnaldum. And Xhaka, to be fair, I think was 32 when they signed him, so was a bit younger. but like just on recruitment and how like if Xhaka hadn't worked out you'd be like well yeah obviously that was going to be a flop he's like a washed has-been as I kind of think we're slightly assuming with Wijnaldum but if you get it right then you're like yeah I mean what a signing a transformative signing and it must be so kind of wafer thin between these two like if if Xhaka had started badly and looked a bit off the pace you'd have been like yeah I mean that's just a obviously was going to be an awful signing.

31:04One of Carragher or Neville gave him signing of the season I think on awards on Monday Night Football I think with like Sunderland they sort of had that good start and then they sort of regressed a bit and they were just sloshing around in mid-table for a while but they've ended up finishing seventh and then they're in the Europa League which is quite amazing I guess with Hull McBurney is quite a good character for them to have he's not quite Dean Windass but he's sort of you know he's a throwback old school he's a real kind of yeah throwback centre forward bit of a shithouse like that's good he could be a They ruffled some feathers early on.

31:38Charlie Eccleshare:Absolutely. Over to the England squad now. Dave, you were at Wembley to hear Thomas Tuchel take on the naysayers as he announced his England squad. For once, I genuinely thought a manager spoke very well. I really loved how he battered away some of the questions, particularly the one where he was asked about his leadership group. He said, I'm just not going to tell you. Sorry. Yeah, I see no value in revealing it to you. It's what he actually says. He is great, isn't he? I don't mean necessarily on a he's going to take us to glory level. I just think his demeanour and the way he deals with the press pack is really good so far.

32:12Yeah. I mean, he knows what's coming. He came prepared and the first thing he said was teams win competitions is not about the best 26 players. Yeah. Not to get too much into earnest England pod territory here. There'll be plenty more where that came from. But I was watching Sunday Supplement on yesterday morning and it was Martin Samuel, John Cross and Miguel Delaney. And Martin Samuel, he was going on about, he's written this piece and he did this sort of thing about, I heard a song on the radio called Make Something Happen. And I thought, yeah, that's what we need. We need someone to make something happen.

32:44Why haven't we got enough players in this squad that could make something happen? And it's like, well, you know, and they were talking about Cole Palmer coming off the bench, making something happen. Cole Palmer came off the bench and made something happen in the Euros final, but we lost. How about like we get a team that might actually win the game without having to have a Hail Mary?

33:00Charlie Eccleshare:It's just one of the crown jewels, Charlie, of those kind of nebulous concepts of things people want in international squads, which is someone to come on and make something happen. Or someone to come on and give you a different dimension by being six foot three. These are the things that on paper look like they're justifiable concepts, but never materialise in actual football. I guess there's only so many of them you can have. I mean, we talked about it in the Dreamland episode just now, didn't we, about Andy Carroll and how he was in that bracket for a period. And I think he went to Euro 2012 as exactly that option.

33:27There's probably a limit on how many of them you can have in a squad.

33:30Charlie Eccleshare:The by-product of so many players being semi-surprisingly admitted from the England squad, Dave, was that it resulted in actually a rare thing, a compelling graphic of players who miss out on a tournament. This is the England team that aren't going to the tournament. Nick Pope in goal, a back four of Lewis Hall, Harry Maguire, Levi Colwell and Trent Alexander-Arnold. Midfield pairing of Gibbs White and Adam Wharton. Phil Foden, Cole Palmer and Jarrod Bowen behind Dominic Calvert-Lewin. That's actually quite a good team. It's actually quite compelling to look at. There's no desperation gone into that XI.

34:01Charlie Eccleshare:So for once, not a futile concept. But it's not actually that good though, is it? Do you think it's the best team that's ever been left behind an England tournament? By virtue of just us having, generally having a better crop of players in terms of more depth, I suppose. One thing that's annoyed me about this particular graphic from TNT Sports, they've got McCollwell at right centre-back. He'd be at left centre-back. Classic. Classic. Happens all the time. Does this slightly speak to the fact that it does feel like England? Because I keep thinking like, God, yeah, we're so good. We're so good.

34:33We've got so much depth. But then I look at our like slated first 11. I'm like, that's not that good. So it feels like we've got loads of like seven out of 10 players. But I don't like, but our sort of top, top level doesn't feel that scary. It can be such a mirage sometimes.

34:45Charlie Eccleshare:Like you really, once you just really give it a good look, you think, oh, it's not good enough. It's not good enough. And then you look at the score and you think, well, maybe it is. And it's incredibly knife edge stuff. Like the third 11. Yeah, that looks like a really good third 11. The first doesn't look miles. I can imagine if they played a training game, it could finish one all or something. Much of the teeth gnashing day was over the inclusion of Ivan Toney, fresh from his 30-goal season with Al Aqli. One England correspondent said, As far as I know, Thomas Tuchel has never watched Ivan Toney live in Saudi Arabia.

35:12Charlie Eccleshare:It feels like he's picked much of his England World Cup score without using his eyes. Is this the level of discourse that Thomas Tuchel deserves? The scrutiny he deserves? I mean, I think the second sentence there is a bit of a leap from the first, to be honest. I do think it was interesting that Tuchel, he did sort of contort himself a bit to try and justify this selection. When he kind of admitted, basically, he's taken him for penalties. And that's fine. But he was like, oh, well, the coach of Al-Akhali was one of my youth team players at Stuttgart, actually. So I had to chat with him and he's given me the thumbs up.

35:46So you didn't watch him. You didn't watch him. You're taking him for penalties.

35:50Charlie Eccleshare:It's fine. Do you know what? Do you know where I fall on the Ivan-Tony debate, Charlie? why do I accept the Saudi Pro League is something of a lesser level I'm on board with the idea that Ivan Tony's just really fresh I think he's just had he's had a couple of years just to have a little bit of a rest bang a few goals in I think he's just ready to go again I can't imagine the idea of Ivan Tony regressing in any way at the things he's good at if you see what I mean he's not that dynamic anyway is he that is quite an interesting theory yeah given how we're always talking about how knackered all the Premier League players are but yeah I mean what a pressure on him and he looks like somebody who can absolutely heard of that but you're being brought basically solely for penalties Yeah that makes me uncomfortable imagine that pressure on you like ah fuck I've missed it sorry about that probably should have brought Calvert-Lewid or someone It's not so much the psychological aspect of being brought in to do a very specific task Dave and then not being able to do it at the crunch moment because I think he probably would be able to do it it's just it doesn't feel very football it doesn't feel very football to be brought in as a penalty guy and then maybe have to take a penalty it doesn't feel very in the spirit of things Yeah I think he was even referred to as like special teams player in some quarters, which is quite an NFL concept.

36:57But I mean, he scored one in the last Euros, but he will miss one at some point. That's the fear.

37:03Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, let's hope we even get that far. Who knows? In the qualification for future World Cups, Charlie, it has been announced that UEFA have created a two-tier qualification process, the upshot of which means England will no longer have to play the likes of San Marino, Gibraltar and Andorra in qualifying. World Cup qualifying, in Europe at least, will be sort of tied with the Champions League format. So we're going to have a kind of Swiss model for qualifying. Do you think you'll miss San Marino and Gibraltar and Andorra? I was quite over it. As a kid, I really enjoyed watching these games because they were so fascinating to me.

37:34Charlie Eccleshare:But I don't want to watch England play San Marino ever again. Yeah, also because sometimes you watch them from a sort of slightly sicko fascination point. Like, ah, it might be like a 7-8-0. But then if they finish like 3-0 or something, you're like, that's just a bit of a mismatch. and obviously the better team was playing at half pace, won easily. What was the point? We never had the chance played you brought to though, Dave, so that's a bit of a shame. Could have at least snuck that one in. Could organise a friendly, a money-spinning friendly on the rock. Politically intensive, but it should be fine.

38:14Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

38:21Charlie Eccleshare:Over to Scotland now, Charlie. Headline from the Daily Record. Lawrence Shanklin jets in to complete Rangers transfer as Ibox unveiling date hinges on one factor. He's jetted in from his holiday in Portugal. Are you counting that as jetting in? I mean, it literally is true, but does it qualify for a football jetting in? I think it's all right. I mean, jetting in is so sort of funnily ludicrous anyway. It's like we're just so desperate to use it. so you know there's enough justification to go with it here just surely get it done before you jet off yeah what's annoying isn't it you've got a holiday and you've just come back to do it is he going to go back to the environment let's do a docusign or whatever leaving the holiday halfway through footballers do this a lot I've got to go sorry I'll be back I'll be back do you leave them there do they come back with you that must be annoying here's a curiosity for you do you remember the meat management industry awards featuring Kevin Keegan very much so I don't know if this is quite up to scratch but this came from Ed Barker who has alerted me to cereals the UK's largest arable farming event.

39:21Charlie Eccleshare:It's going to be held at Diddly Squat Farm. That's Clarkson's farm, right? Sounds like it. I think it is. I don't mind if I've got that wrong because it doesn't matter either way. Anyway, lots of bits and bobs going on at this arable farming event. Lots of industry interest, I imagine. But there's a stall. There's a place you could go where you can take a penalty against Chris Kirkland. So the premise of this, Charlie, Just to give you a bit of extra context. They have just got Chris Kirkland in for a bit of entertainment. The company behind it are... His dad put a bet on when he was a kid doing the Belter Spring.

39:56The company behind it... The Haritable Farming event.

39:58Charlie Eccleshare:...are big into research of high-performing spring barley, built to deliver from fields to maltings. So they've laid down this really lush grass pitch. So that's the vague premise of this. They're going to get Chris Kirkland to field some penalties from sort of, I don't know, local farmers, I guess. people turning up in wellies whacking one past Chris Kirkland you worry about the footwear yeah boots wellies not going to be good don't get me wrong I'd be curious to try this no question yeah how many penalties do you think is the threshold for Chris Kirkland to think I can't be asked this anymore I'm sorry yeah and like how seriously is he going to take it is he going to really be plucking them out the bottom or top corner is he just going to kind of go oh oh you done me oh well done yeah Yeah.

40:45You could do that with kids. You can't really be patronising if you're doing it to a load of 55-year-old farmers. It's two and a half hours, Charlie.

40:52Charlie Eccleshare:Two and a half hours. Crucially, they have roped in a sort of local non-league goalkeeper to kind of cover for him. So maybe he's going to do half an hour on, half an hour off. I don't know. Okay. That is important because I think he will lose enthusiasm. And also, what patter do you go with this? Like Dave says, it's one thing like being nice to little kids and encouraging them. but it's a slightly harder audience if it's like, you know, grown men who aren't very good. You can't go like full Michael Owen though, can you? You know, you can't just kind of completely take the piss and just save everything.

41:21No, I've got a horrible image here, David, of a couple of farmers,

41:27Charlie Eccleshare:a couple of ciders deep in their wellies, sort of stepping up but doing like a really sort of trotty kind of Paul Pogba style run up just for a bit of a laugh and having to humour it. John Terry slip potential here. Serious potential for a John Terry slip. If you're going to cereals, the arable farming event, and you take a penalty against Chris Kirkland, film it, send it to us. We are very interested indeed. On the marketing material for this, they've got a little Instagram post and they've got a little graphic. And Chris Kirkland is there with one finger. They're doing the shushing thing above his mouth as his pose, which suggests that he is going to be taking it seriously.

42:08Charlie Eccleshare:mind games oh my goodness good luck to everyone involved right we enjoy some tenuous football chanting on this podcast this came from Michael Phillips here is some chanting from a trailer for series 3 of Goed on ITV Donnie's shagging your ma

42:29Donnie's shagging your ma Stand up Donnie's shagging your ma Donnie's shagging your ma I don't know what's gone on here.

42:41Charlie Eccleshare:It's a massive weird hybrid. Why have they done it? Yeah, they've melded two things there. Why does the stand-up element have to get involved? He's shagging your ma. He's shagging your ma. They've had to get his name in there, which ruins it. Yeah. It's a shame. It's a shame. Poor chant knowledge. Anyway, speaking of spicy private lives, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

43:18Ford Super Sunday.

43:22Charlie Eccleshare:A huge day on Sunday for so many stakeholders in the Premier League, but none bigger than the big man. So it's the end of an era. Not Guardiola, not West Ham, not Tottenham. Keys and Grey we sit in front of Premier League football for the last time today after 34 years 1992 to 2026 sounds like an over it this but it's not I'm not emotional about it I'm not unhappy about it I'm chuffed a bit about it

43:58it's the end of the beginning in many ways we've got one more after this Champions League final but it's been a blast not many if any wanted it to succeed in truth we've taken a bit of kicking along the way we took the blows um but we stood tall and we did it our way so join us at 1630 mecca be in sports um it's a dramatic day on the pitch and i suppose in many ways it is off pitch now as well lovely stuff elevating his own status a big truck into

44:32Charlie Eccleshare:Interacting him halfway through, a bit of Sinatra, a bit of score settling, but only a light, light amount. Charlie, this was good stuff. Yeah, yeah. No real notes. A couple of things there where sort of self-deprecatingly play it down. We sit in front of Premier League football for the last time this weekend, which is a nice way of putting it. He also glosses over the talk sport years where, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think you were presenting Premier League football at the weekends. It's not been an unbroken stretch, has it? A lot of people pointing that out to him in the replies. I thought, so cruel.

45:06Charlie Eccleshare:Don't quibble for 34 years, please. I enjoyed this from Simon. He says, I just get the feeling that Keys and Gray could do a job for a struggling state broadcaster somewhere. Obviously, they need to take a break and recharge their batteries. But in six months, if Azerbaijan came knocking, could they say no? That's all I'm saying. I love framing it like that. Get Keys. We could do worse. We could do worse for our Premier League coverage. We're paying hundreds of millions of pounds for the rights here. I think they've done the Middle East. The Far East, I think, would be the next frontier for them.

45:34Wow. Malaysia or something. I wonder if those countries are a bit too, if they've sort of moved beyond keys and grey. Possibly.

45:41Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, Malaysia's not bad, shout. I do wonder, though, if their Premier League presenting days are over. China? Yeah, well, I don't know. That bubble is a little bit. Xi Jinping. Yeah. Wonderful, man. Gorgeous, enormous country. I was going to say, having to nail his colours to a new mast. this gorgeous massive country every year Dave you always get you always get that stat about the three countries in the world who don't have rights to show Premier League football I feel like Keith and Greg could go there and sort of you know be missionaries for the Premier League yeah North Korea Tajikistan Pyongyang North Korea yeah my little mate Kim oh god no anyway the Premier League is done we've got the small matter of the World Cup on the way.

46:31Charlie Eccleshare:18 days. That's all. Crazy, isn't it? We haven't even finished with the domestic or the European football yet. 18 days from now, the World Cup kicks off in Mexico, America and Canada. Live. Exclusively live in our part of the world on Be In Sports. See what Infantino said this week? Go on. If I could have held the next 10 in Qatar, I would have done. It was so good. He's not wrong. He's not wrong. This one's going to be very different. He's not wrong. But it's live here with us on Be In Sports. loyal to the very end 10 World Cup great stuff guitar Charlie could you imagine oh my gosh here we go again he's not wrong he's not wrong finally Dave Joe writes in and says there better be a minute's applause on the podcast for Keys and Grey I don't think we're at that levels of obsequiousness just yet yeah no mid pod guard of honours for us here yeah I'm not sure it'd be great podcasting but we might do it one day anyway thanks to you Charlie Eccleshare thank you thanks to you David Walker thank you thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on Thursday with the listeners, Mesut Haaland Dix.

47:30Charlie Eccleshare:See you then.