The 5-a-side keepers' union & World Cup pub bunting: The listeners' loves & hates

10:35Adam Hurrey:we'll just talk about that in a pub actually yeah i also fuck off liam i mean he's he's i'm i'm not quite as much of a scholar of a blog as you. Does he often go blue?

10:48Nick Miller:He did it the previous week, actually, in an incredible line. I think it was over the VAR Liverpool City thing, and it was something like, the ref should have told the VAR to fuck off. Just so crude. So yeah, he does have it in his locker.

11:04Charlie Eccleshare:It's completely lawless, his blog. I mean, it's not sort of tied to anybody, so he basically does what he wants, but it does feel a little bit like it's even more of a lure unto itself at the moment. Elsewhere in the Champions League, Bodo Glimt completed their extraordinary dismantling of Inter Milan in the second leg. And the final whistle, Sam Matterface went all Gary Weaver. Things went their way a couple of times and they had a bit of luck, but my word, what a performance over two legs. Norse mythology has a new chapter. The warriors of the north have fortified their position and ambushed the San Siro.

11:45Charlie Eccleshare:He's completely stealing his gimmick, Charlie. I can't have this.

11:48Nick Miller:Well, we're also with shades, isn't it, of like the Greek god in Rome, the Peter Drury, Costas Manolas, but yes, I don't know if this Champions League upset would rank with some of the incredible stories in Norse mythology, but, you know.

12:02Charlie Eccleshare:didn't really give it as full guns as weaver traditionally does did he nick i thought that

12:08Adam Hurrey:there was a little bit borrowed from drury as well you kind of worry that he's gone for he's got he's taken too many elements from different places he hasn't fully committed to one bit my advice sam yeah because you need this is you fully go to it go for it just just focus on one

12:22Charlie Eccleshare:thing next time it was fairly evocative i didn't mind it finally for the adjudication panel this was actually submitted for the listeners mesot harland dicks i thought it was just too niche and I don't like to pick on individual people that much, but Rob Whitehurst has produced an incredibly niche observation on the Champions League's foremost commentator.

12:41Nick Miller:The signature noise that Fletch makes when he's caught off guard and needs to emote in some way for a goal. Once you hear it, you can't unhear it. He'll be in the middle of saying something and then a goal will go in and he will go, hello, usually followed by, hello, it's him.

12:58Charlie Eccleshare:And Harvey Elliott's going to be involved straight to 80. Oh, it's in!

13:01Nick Miller:Does my head in every time.

13:03Charlie Eccleshare:It's an incredible delivery of the sound, Nick. I really like it.

13:08Adam Hurrey:That's really good. I didn't really know what he was talking about initially, but then when you hear an example of it, there's a massive one when Lucas Moura scores the third. Yeah, yeah, yeah, in the AAC semi-final.

13:21Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, I'd love a compilation of these, Charlie.

13:23Nick Miller:It all! Can't get it out of my head. While we're getting these off our chest about things that Fletch always says, I've noticed he has this habit of saying, what I would say, Ali, stop saying what I would say. Just say it. Look out for it now. You'll hear it. He says it so often. What I would say.

13:39Charlie Eccleshare:It's like, you don't need to say that. Just say it. He's very forthcoming with his opinions, isn't he, Charlie Fletch? I mean, I don't mind it. I don't mind commentators. I'm very much of the thought that commentators have watched a shitload of football. They're entitled to an opinion. And they've watched loads of top-level football. and that they already researched the narrative as well. They're probably well-placed to make observations. So I don't mind him doing it. No, they are.

14:04Nick Miller:They just don't need to sort of trail them. Although I guess maybe him saying what I would say is a kind of like what I would say if I were sort of, you know, an ex-pro or on the same kind of level as my gilded colleagues. But yeah, I don't even need to say it.

14:20Charlie Eccleshare:It's not like the Copacabana thing. It's going to be okay. This episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands for Virtual Private Network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while travelling. Indeed, over to the CONCACAF Champions Cup we go, where the Philadelphia Union travelled to face Trinidadian outfit Defence Force, who are made up of people who work for the Coast Guard, apparently.

14:54Charlie Eccleshare:And the commentator explains why there's a mere 1 ,428 people in attendance at Haisley Crawford Stadium. Celebrated by the government or work, but everyone is expected to travel to church and get their blessings after two days of absolute fornication. Now, Defence Force, who represents this island, are going to have to come up with their very best to try to compete today.

15:21Nick Miller:Absolute fornication.

15:23Charlie Eccleshare:This is in the aftermath of Ash Wednesday, I'm told. Absolute fornication. Which mainstream commentator do you think would use the phrase absolute fornication? It's very dreary to me. I feel like he could use that.

15:33Adam Hurrey:Do you think? Well, I mean, I think Charlie sort of stole the thunder a little bit there. It's very Townsend, I think. Right. I didn't actually technically commentator, but...

15:41Nick Miller:Dreary would go alliteration, wouldn't he?

15:45Charlie Eccleshare:Fabulous fornication. Let's not construct a parallel universe where we're imagining that. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches, and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee, and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it. We'll be back very shortly with February's listeners, Mesut Harland-Dix.

16:19That is wonderful.

16:25Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. A reminder that episode 18 of Dreamland is very much on the way. We're recording it just after this, actually. It's about Soccer Saturday. And very excited to go through 28 years of Soccer Saturday's journey through broadcasting history. You can sign up to Dreamland for just£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes, plus two episodes a month of Dreamland. Just go to dreamland.footballcliches.com. Right, time for the listeners, MHD for February. And the fascinations begin with Tom Maldoni. One of my fascinations with football is the kind of temporary membership to the goalkeepers union that you take on when you take your turning goal in a game of fives or sevens.

17:10Charlie Eccleshare:Not only is it kind of being more vocal and instructive to your defenders, but I find myself doing things like saying, good serve keeper to my opposite number on the other team, which is something I would never do when I was playing outfield. It's just a weird little thing that I've noticed myself doing, but I've seen other people do it as well. Nick, this is spot on in pretty much every way. The two main thrusts of this I really like. One, when you're in goal, it does give you licence to say these things that you probably couldn't do outfield. It might make you look a little bit too busy if you were shouting these things outfield.

17:44Charlie Eccleshare:But as a goalkeeper, it is your duty to both coordinate your team, but also, as he says, to become part of the goalkeepers union and praise the other goalkeeper. If you do it as an outfield player, that would be weird. It would almost be patronising, if anything. Oh, you saved that one. Yeah, but there is a kinship between two goalkeepers, and I'm really happy to do it.

18:04Adam Hurrey:Yeah, absolutely. This is the kind of, I know you're paying here. I feel you, brother. This is how... You and I, we're very similar, having previously not met for... Exactly. Yeah, and five minutes ago, we were both playing outfield, but now we are one.

18:24Charlie Eccleshare:But you've got to be careful with it, Charlie. You've got to use your knowledge wisely here. Yes, there's kinship. Yes, there's sympathy involved. But it's got to be a really good save. You don't want to be giving out this praise willy-nilly.

18:37Nick Miller:commenting on the sort of technical aspects as if you're joe hart or shea given i love i got down really impressive there what what i noticed there was your footwork just as the shot was coming in you just took a little step to your right so well done player great stuff um no i i wouldn't go so much on that side of the pretending to be a keeper but i do like sort of having a swig of the water and sort of chucking it behind me and definitely the vocal thing because you do have the kind of But you'll say to people, you can see it all. You can see it all unfolding. It's crucial. Yeah, so that really does give you that license to just be telling people where to move and who to pick up and that kind of thing.

19:18Charlie Eccleshare:And if you reverse this phenomenon or reverse this scenario, Nick, if you've just made a great save and you can hear just audibly from the other end of the pitch someone congratulating you on it, you're going to feel like a million dollars, especially if you're not a full-time keeper as well.

19:34Adam Hurrey:100%. It may stun you to learn that I'm not the most mobile goalkeeper in the world, so I'm not a diver around. I'm very strictly kind of mostly saving with my feet kind of thing. That's fine. So, yeah, when I do get a little compliment, it just pops out for a little bit. You feel good about yourself.

19:55Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, or maybe it's wasted on part-time sort of proper outfield goalkeepers. Maybe they just won't appreciate the praise as much, Charlie. But when I played that first comeback game with this new bunch the other day, I went in goal straight away. I always go in goal straight away because I treat it as a warm up. It gets me sort of warmed up. It gets my heart racing a bit. But I also really like going in goal. And they had some great gloves. Not only did they have the aforementioned huge bag of balls, they had some really good goalkeeper gloves. Really sticky, really new. And they fit perfectly.

20:25Charlie Eccleshare:And I felt a million dollars. And I saved a couple of early ones really down low as well. like properly getting down to tip it around the post and i just thought don't be too good because that might be they might think that that's your thing and i thought that's the last thing i want is to think i've turned up as a goalie that'd be awful well that is the classic thing as well of

20:44Nick Miller:how you know people get rewarded for ineptitude because if someone's terrible terrible in goal they'll go in for shorter times people will want them in less and that's true in all walks of life you know if you're if you're not good at something people just stop asking you to do it which which feels unfair it's like you shouldn't be rewarded for this yeah it is a disgrace i mean i feel

21:02Charlie Eccleshare:really strongly about people being shit in goal uh at five side nick but the the system is incredible because you've got an hour uh in this case you've got six players you think it would work out about 10 minutes each but it's incredible how time flies when you don't want to be in goal and if you go in goal first you you should know by now or i should know in my advancing years that you're going to be having a second stint at the sort of you know the climax of this game when you least

21:25Nick Miller:want to be in sometimes i just time it wrong and and you do you go in goal and you're sort of being like if anyone needs a rest then i was feeling knackered so everyone just goes deaf

21:35Adam Hurrey:do that thing where you hold the ball up on one palm go anyone not been in yet um and i i'm playing a regular game broadly the same group of lads who play it every monday and i i do have i've got my eye on a couple of people who don't who really drag their feet when it comes to taking the turning goal they're always the last ones in and to the point where you know they're in for like the last five minutes or something when everyone else has done a bit more you also mentioned adam the gloves there there's an etiquette thing i think as well when someone has i understand when someone has brought their own gloves and they go in goal but then when someone else goes in they they don't pass the gloves over they kind of like chuck them behind the goal as if to say no no you're not using my gloves mate you're not you're not getting your grubby sweaty mitts on in my gloves that's astonishing behavior i don't think i've ever

22:27Charlie Eccleshare:encountered that i i i wouldn't tolerate it i just go and put them on um you have to you have to commit to other people's sweat being in your goalie gloves that's just it yeah well this is

22:36Adam Hurrey:it this is it if you don't if you don't want other people to use them don't bring them or or or kind of wear them so you look like nicholas and elka that time even weirder but you've got to

22:48Charlie Eccleshare:play the long game here, Charlie. Yes. Okay. Set aside the fact you don't want other people's DNA inside your gloves, but bear in mind that they'll be better in goal if you let them wear them. Think about things.

22:59Nick Miller:Yeah, that's mad. That's mad to not be sharing goalie gloves. Yeah.

23:03Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. I really don't want to hear any more stories about that from our listeners. Next up, second fascination of football comes from Ali Mason. This is one of my fascinations of football. Pretty root one. it's just like weird anomalies in goal differences in football tables so for example looking at the championship table at the moment Millwall in third place with a goal difference of two like that should not be possible and then immediately beneath them Ipswich with a goal difference of 20 like how can they have two fewer points but an 18 better goal difference it just feels like something that shouldn't be possible even though it obviously is charlie goal difference is such a nicely poised kind of sub statistic when it comes to the league table all your relevant information is there but when you're really investing in a league table your eyes will be drawn to the goal difference because it tells all sorts of stories what might happen you know in a really basic way i'll look at a league table and think well it's just going to fall into place isn't it it will go in goal difference order eventually right so it's almost like it's like the the xg of yore isn't it basically you think okay it'll look it'll sort of you know shake up in the right way in the

24:14Nick Miller:end it can be really illustrative and tell you what you think you've seen and obviously it can be skewed but like i remember man united in ten hags last full season they came eighth and got 60 points which is sort of middling and middling to bad obviously for a club of their standards but

24:30Charlie Eccleshare:they had a minus one goal difference right yeah they were negative godders newcastle who also

24:35Nick Miller:had 60 points had a plus 23 goal difference which was inflated i think they had a they hammered sheffield united something like 8-0 but 23 to minus one same points 24 different and it is like but but that was really telling of how bad that man united team was and the fact that they they were almost worse than their points sadly suggested and my old friends aston villa and my sort of they're not in the title race crusade their goal difference is 10 is plus 10 it's what united is 11. Chelsea's is plus 17. They're six points worse off. And the teams that are supposedly in a title race with have a plus 35 and a plus 31.

25:11Nick Miller:So I do think that is quite illustrative of the fact that most of their wins were quite narrow. So it can tell a story.

25:18Charlie Eccleshare:The outliers that Ali Mason sort of mentions there, Nick, there's always a plausible footballing explanation for it straight away. It's because they've either thrashed loads of teams and then sort of lost all of the games or they're sneaking 1-0s here and there. But there are a couple of thoughts here. First of all, a team in the kind of promotion or title shake-up with a really narrow goal difference. There's something really too Bob about that, isn't there? It's like, this is unsustainable.

25:45Adam Hurrey:Yeah, it's incredibly unsatisfying. It's like, what are you doing? Why are you, I mean, are you proud of yourself? You're clearly just scraping these wins 1-0. You should be, you know, we want more from you. Yeah, it is. I don't like it. But what I do quite like, having said all that, I do quite like the kind of Guardian knowledge, like, curios. It would be like, has a team won a title with a negative goal difference? It's that kind of thing. Is it possible? There have been. I'm sure there have been.

26:19Nick Miller:Norwich in 92-93 came firm with a negative one, I think.

26:23Charlie Eccleshare:They are right up there as the most famous goal difference of all time, aren't they, actually, now I think about it. Charlie, we're smack bang in the middle of an era where it feels like every week there is a new stat that illustrates just how shit, say Spurs or Manchester United are, almost interchangeably every other week. And it's amazing, like something new will have happened that means that they're on the worst run since the war in some form or another. I feel like not enough has been made over the last four or five years about their goal differences. And, you know, just one or both of them hovering around zero.

26:57Charlie Eccleshare:And you think, I don't want them to be minus one. I don't want them to be plus one. I want them to finish the season on a zero goal difference. So I think that's like more damning. I don't know why.

27:05Nick Miller:Well, that it's just like the whole thing was totally pointless.

27:07Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, complete none of Eddie Miles are not bothered.

27:10Nick Miller:Yeah. It's like when teams have that record of like, you know, they've won six, drawn six, lost six or something. And it just feels so like, what are we doing, Brighton? What's the point?

27:20Charlie Eccleshare:Where are we going? I'm a huge fan, Nick, of symmetrical mid-table records in the Premier League. if you've got an equal record of wins draws and losses and a delightfully zero goal difference you should get some sort of award that likes to be a little premier league trophy for it

27:35Adam Hurrey:what would they call it the pure mid you know the pure like um pure average or something like that but this is one of one of the things i find very very slightly unsatisfying about a league table like in the premier league there isn't an absolute mid table there isn't one team in the middle there's 10th and 11th and that is annoying whereas in one of the few other sports i uh bother with baseball they measure things with like winning your winning percentage so if you have a 500 winning percentage that is basically you've you've won as many you've lost as many games as you've won and it is just pure average and there is something quite satisfying that occasionally teams will end the season having won 82 games and lost 82 games and they yeah as you

28:19Charlie Eccleshare:say just might as well have not bothered why do they play so many fucking games oh it's mad i I feel like you're the person to ask.

28:24Adam Hurrey:I don't know exactly, but...

28:26Charlie Eccleshare:It's revenue, isn't it? More games, more money!

28:29Adam Hurrey:There is something quite comforting about there just being constant games on. Every day, there are nine or ten games that you can choose from. Amazing. Yeah, I don't know exactly why, but yeah, it's incredibly pleasing.

28:43Charlie Eccleshare:Charlie, in an era of advanced metrics and things like that, and having fully embraced XG at a mainstream level, are you comforted by the fact that goal difference is still like the universal tiebreaker in most situations i know you get the odd kind of head-to-head record trying to creep in but goal difference is you know in all football cultures still seem sort of deemed to be the number one decider that's good isn't it i'm glad it's still there yeah it is good and i think it's good that it does still it can still tell a story score goals at that end stop them going in at the other end that's what it's all about the other

29:18Adam Hurrey:of the head-to-head records, I don't find them irritating as a concept in themselves, but I find it irritating that they're there, so in other tournaments, like World Cups or whatever, you have to scroll down the Wikipedia page to figure out what exactly is the tiebreaker. If none of that existed and it was just goal difference, we'd all know where we stood.

29:39Charlie Eccleshare:I really don't want to bathe in my ignorance here, Charlie, but La Liga doesn't do goal difference. Am I right?

29:45Nick Miller:Well, it does head-to-head.

29:46Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, they have it, but But when it comes to crucial head-to-heads where it decides who's going to get into the Champions League or not, it comes down to head-to-head. It certainly used to, unless they've changed that. But they don't bother with it for the rest of the table. What are you doing? You've got to apply the same thing for the rest of it. Maybe they probably just do. Head-to-head points is the first tiebreaker in La Liga. Then it's head-to-head goal difference. And then goal difference is the fourth tiebreaker. Why don't they like goal difference in Spain?

30:12Nick Miller:I mean, I can see the sort of head-to-head logic in some respects. that it's like you've shown you're better than them like you should be above them because because when it came to the head-to-head when you had the you both teams had the chance to show who's better yeah one of the teams did it depends what it depends if you're rewarding what do you set like i think because for us the spirit of the league is that it's your performance over 38 games exactly

30:37Charlie Eccleshare:yeah exactly right um yeah so yeah we should keep an eye on that infantino starts ruling out if Wenger starts saying, well, goal difference is really unfair, footballistically. Right, third fascination from our listeners comes from Michael Kerr. One of my fascinations of football

30:52Nick Miller:is watching a goal that I know is really good and anticipating what type of goal it's going to be as the clip unfolds. It's best if it's one from the lower leagues or abroad that's gone viral, so you don't know which player is going to score it

31:03Charlie Eccleshare:and the caption doesn't give away either. Say the clip starts with the ball game played out wide, you're thinking, is he going to cut in and shoot? He's crossed it, so you're thinking maybe an overhead kick or something acrobatic. I get a half cleared and the midfielder hits it to the top corner on the volley. It's great when the goal comes from nowhere and it's genuinely quite unique, but I also enjoy when I don't buy the dummies and I call it right from the start. It's like casually delivered, Nick. Doesn't sound that fascinated.

31:27Adam Hurrey:This is, when I looked at this earlier on, this was like pure MHD in as much as it's something that I hadn't really been like, I hadn't realised I do. But after listening to that, I think, yeah, I do that all the time.

31:42Charlie Eccleshare:Okay. That's interesting that you say that because, Charlie, not only have I never thought about this before, I can't really gauge my own ability to work out a wonder goal in its infancy in a clip. I mean, a lot of it comes down to whoever's edited the clip. How far back have they started it? And sometimes they can be really mischievous and attack can be happening at the other end. But yeah, Charlie, at what point of a sort of viral goal clip are you confident you can figure out what's about to happen?

32:08Nick Miller:this is really interesting because there will be ones where you can you're throwing it forward in your own mind i mean some are harder than others obviously with some if it starts with a run you're kind of thinking this is this is probably going to be the player goes all the way here though i guess there's a world in which it's both a run and there's more to it and there's kind of like oh and there's a spectacular finish or it might just be a fairly regulation finish at the end of it or you get a sense from a kind of quick passing move that like okay this is going to be right that's what this is about it's about the passing move and then if there's if like if nothing's happened you're like well this has got to be just about the nature of the finish is what makes this a spectacular goal but obviously that could be a range you know you you don't know exactly that could be someone blasts it in for miles or they do work it wide and it's no bad kick or something

32:56Charlie Eccleshare:yeah nick as charlie suggests i think most goal clips editing aside probably give you a good clue of the type of goal that's about to happen so as you say like a solo run if that's what it looks like in the first three seconds that's what's it that's what it's going to be um so i'm trying to think of what the most disguisable wonder goal could be when it comes to sort of clipped up goals and i'm thinking a ball into the box that's headed that's half cleared and then returned with interest on the volley into the top corner is about as about as unexpected a goal as you could get in a clip like that because but then you know no maybe even then you're thinking how good can a cross into the box be wonder goal wise could be a bicycle i guess um or maybe like a

33:38Adam Hurrey:kind of you know lampardian box crashing run where the guy can just comes in from nowhere just comes in from out of shot yeah this in its kind of purest form only really works if you don't know any of the players involved because because because particularly if you if you know it's a wonder goal and you know it's been scored by you know phil foden player x whatever because i will will find myself when the clip starts i'll find myself if i know who scored it i'll find myself looking for them in the shot to just kind of track how they got into this position particularly if

34:11Charlie Eccleshare:they don't have the ball at the start of it this is spot on charlie and as michael kerr suggests it's better when it's lower league because not only might you not know who scored the goal but when you're watching this clip of a random lower league club you're not even going to know who's taking charge of the attack so it is a nice blank canvas for you which is why lower league goal compilations are just so fun to watch because it's just an endless stream of almost narrativeless backgroundless goal scoring that's actually which is why football league extra at 1am used to be the greatest uni watch of all time because it's like i've got no investment here i'm loving it i've got

34:45Nick Miller:no preconceptions yeah obviously with some players you you know you hear a player player x has scored a wonder goal yeah you absolutely think okay well i know i can imagine what a wonder goal scored by this player is i get although sometimes there might be that curiosity of like player x has scored a wonder goal. What is that going to look like? And you know it'll be amazing

35:02Charlie Eccleshare:because it'll be, what, I don't know, Jason Dodd or somebody.

35:06Nick Miller:Eric Edmund.

35:07Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Jake Teotay

35:09Nick Miller:with that volley on his left foot.

35:11Charlie Eccleshare:Fullbacks, disproportionately good wonder goal scorers. Maybe they just get the space. Who knows? Yeah, tremendous set of fascinations from our listeners this month. Love those. We'll be back very shortly with your irritations.

35:39Charlie Eccleshare:welcome back to football cliches this is the listeners mezza harlan dicks for february we've heard your fascinations let's kick off your irritations

35:47Nick Miller:with todd baker my footballing irritation is managers not watching one of their players take a penalty. Klopp used to do this quite a lot where he would turn and face the crowd and I'm not sure what the purpose of it is because it feels performative that the crowd are somehow distracted from whether they should be watching the penalty or the manager and as obviously as soon as the the kind of penalty is taken they know the outcome in the same way they would if they were watching it by the fact there's 60 ,000 plus people telling you what has happened so I don't really understand

36:22Charlie Eccleshare:the point of it at all. Charlie I was waiting for the word performative to appear in this gripe um how do you feel about it?

36:29Nick Miller:I don't mind it so much because I can empathize with being a sort of nervous watcher sure and so I don't you never know how genuine these things are I do think they come from a place of genuine nervousness I mean it makes me a little bit of like if you know in your teams I had a crap result and you're like do I even really want to watch the match that they highlights but then because of the work we do we're like probably should though for professional reasons and i feel like you know you're not gonna but if you see the missed penalty as the manager you're gonna have to micro analyze this missed penalty anyway eventually and sort of you know work out what what's my taker done wrong and all of this it's like in a way just put yourself out

37:10Charlie Eccleshare:of your misery and watch it there was a part of me that thought it would be quite churlish both on our part and todd baker's part to be sort of you know picking apart the um superstition of this when essentially saying you're still going to find out very quickly what happened anyway. Is there a kernel of truth here? It is quite funny that you said that 60 ,000 people are going to let you know anyway, so you're going to find out within a microsecond of when you would have done anyhow.

37:34Adam Hurrey:Yeah, the one of these that really springs to mind is, was it early this season? Yeah, it must have been earlier this season. It was United against Burnley, I think it was. It was the game after the Grimsby where Amorim put his, he was sitting in the dugout at Old Trafford and that little silly little wall that's in front of him, he had his feet up on the wall and was looking he was looking at the, I can't remember which end it was but you know say it was at the one end, he was looking at the Stratford end rather than like you know turning his back or covering his feet or whatever he was doing and that just felt I mean that did feel quite performative Yeah he got pilloried for that whereas

38:12Charlie Eccleshare:Klopp probably didn't, did he Nick? Klopp probably got sort of praise for it because you know he's feeling the emotion it's just too much or something like that so it's weird how the how the pendulum swings in that respect but i do i do get it charlie because you know we've talked about how we might empathize with them just simply not being able to watch it's too nervous but these managers have micromanaged their team over the last seven days before this game making sure that every every possible eventuality is covered for and then finally it just comes down to a 75 chance and you just think okay i can understand why they wouldn't

38:45Nick Miller:watch after all of that yeah but then it's just so strange because it is so that they're analyzing every little thing to within an inch of its life and then this absolute like the most important moment of the match they're they're not watching have you have you ever experienced this nick like have you ever felt the impulse to look away in these moments no no i don't i i don't really

39:05Adam Hurrey:understand it because i mean i don't really know what i'm gaining from from not watching it yeah absolutely i kind of i sort of identify with the the nerves thing and you know you know it's like a bit like watching a horror movie a horror film or something like that you're gonna hide behind your hands or whatever it'll be a worse way to find out your team have missed a penalty you don't have to ask someone what happened you know if you if they've missed then you know they've missed but they did was it you know did they hit the bar was it saved what happened imagine if you turned away from the Henri Perez penalty where they they tried the clever thing and fucked it what why you know you didn't uh left asking whoever you were around to explain what happened it would be

39:48Nick Miller:quite fun quite clichesy to try and work out exactly the flavor of penalty miss from the noise just from the noise reaction yeah like yeah like you could definitely like you could definitely tell or I'd like to you could tell a kind of save from a skying it or something like that that would be quite a fun exercise actually on uh just just hearing penalty miss noises yeah what would be

40:11Adam Hurrey:quite good is if it's it is like united taking a penalty at old trafford and you don't you're not looking and they hit the post or the bar and then you just hear the ping and then so you say you don't really need to kind of ask anyone what happened you go oh fuck all right yeah fine

40:27Nick Miller:if i know what's gone on there there is obviously though a difference as well from like a fan doing it in a manager because a manager that's not really conveying confidence is it if you can't bring yourself to watch like there is a world in which in an in a sacking long read it's cited that the players felt that they were undermined by the fact that the manager wouldn't even look at them

40:46Charlie Eccleshare:taking a penalty hey that's less tenuous than holding an arsenal coffee cup if you're the spurs manager by mistake that's way higher in the long read for me i mean do you remember obviously

40:56Nick Miller:this is extreme but do you remember Louis Saha missed a penalty against Celtic for United in the Champions League would have been about 2006 and I think there was footage that went around of Neville saying or suggesting that he wasn't very confident that Saha was gonna score it and indeed Saha missed and obviously that's like an extreme version but similarly looking away does suggest I'm absolutely bricking it I'm not I'm not that confident you're gonna score this the first instance of this I was

41:23Charlie Eccleshare:familiar with, Nick, was the 1974 World Cup final when Johan Nayskens fired the Dutch in front after two minutes from the penalty spot. And I had a very, very worn out VHS tape that had the history of the World Cup on it. And when this penalty was about to be taken, Willem van Hanegam's wife was in the stands and she couldn't watch. And I remember thinking then, I was thinking, I totally get this. I do get it. But also, you know, not much unity going on there. That's Dutch infighting for you, isn't it, really? They really will turn on each other. But what it does fly in the face of, Nick, is that I actually act in a completely the opposite way when it comes to my football consumption.

42:03Charlie Eccleshare:If I can't watch my team play, I believe they're going to lose. It's not quite Uri Geller levels of being able to sort of push them onto victory, but I need to be able to see them. Listening on the radio is horrendous, And that is basically the equivalent of not watching a penalty to me. Like, it's awful. If I can't see it, then therefore only bad things will happen. Yeah, I had this exact thing last weekend when I was unavoidably had to drive throughout Forest against Liverpool. Has your team ever won when you're driving? Ever, ever, ever.

42:35Adam Hurrey:That's horrendous.

42:36Nick Miller:The powerlessness.

42:38Adam Hurrey:Yeah, the last two times. and particularly in this case when there were those two kind of really odd sort of dramatic goals disallowed goals right at the end because it wasn't really clear this wasn't really at any fault of the commentators but you didn't really know what happened it was kind of there was a loose description of this goal being disallowed and then the second one, oh that looked offside to me I don't know, I haven't been able to make up my mind about this how upset am i gonna have to feel and then there was the the almost worst was like there was a long time it was a really long drive so it was a quiet there's like two or three hours after the final whistle before i could actually see any of this stuff so yeah horrific um charlie imagine

43:25Charlie Eccleshare:this absurd scenario where you're driving listening to your team on a radio but it's also an illegal

43:31Nick Miller:radio stream so it's buffering as well you're gonna lose five nil i mean it's crazy how it doesn't but like so when i was away recently in australia and you're sleeping through whole games like that is just such a weird thing you're like what so i just wake up and like everything's happened that's how's that gonna go that's not gonna go well oh god yeah that reminds me i was

43:52Charlie Eccleshare:in japan on my honeymoon i'd drunk more whiskey than i anticipated um passed out while watching an illegal stream woke up and we'd won 4-2 that's the only time i could ever imagine that happening So that's the honeymoon period kicking in. Lovely psychological thriller from Tom Baker there. Thank you very much. The second irritation from our listeners is from Tom Hills.

44:13Nick Miller:My footballing irritation is a phrase often used by co-commentators towards the end of a tight game in which Team X has withstood some pressure to grind out a one goal win. The phrase is, it's the kind of game that Team X would have dropped points in last season. It's basically applicable to any team where there's a general narrative that they're making progress. but there's obviously no accountability no one's keeping receipts so you can just keep on saying

44:38Adam Hurrey:it year after year without contradiction it doesn't really add any insight i feel like i've heard someone say about arsenal at least once in each of the past eight seasons charlie arsenal are

44:48Charlie Eccleshare:very much the epicenter of this phenomenon aren't they this is speaking my language i've made a very

44:52Nick Miller:similar point this before and this even this would this would even be said about arsenal in the kind of Wenger stasis crap period where every season was basically the same and a bit Groundhog Day but it would be said because once twice they would get a win like this but that would also have been true of the previous season it was just that it wasn't it didn't happen often enough so it would just be this cycle of you know they're losing that game last season it's like no they're they're gonna lose a lot of them they'll win some of them you just remember you just don't really remember the ones they've won because the prevailing narrative is they lose these tight games um so yeah they are right in the epicenter of it uh nick does does this vague claim which by the

45:31Charlie Eccleshare:way you know and also as charlie and tom have both said already it can just be thrown out pretty much without any kind of pushback does it need to be supportable with data like does the previous season's corresponding result need to prove it or can it be a more bigger picture thing than that

45:46Adam Hurrey:absolutely not i mean i think it's almost better if there isn't that there isn't actually yeah but it's all but it's always like a kind of it's never about like technical ability or anything like that it's always a kind of you know a bottle thing you know it's always a you know well they would have folded in this game last season or whatever or you know or the reverse so yeah it's a very kind of it feels like the sort of thing you say when you just don't know what to say what i would say is last season they would have lost this game it's one of those

46:19Charlie Eccleshare:classic situations Charlie where you get to use the kind of football tense which is they lose this

46:24Nick Miller:last season they lose this this time a year ago they're losing this game yeah you've taken it one step further it's insane tense isn't it they are losing this it's such a good tense but and again like it just gives it this sort of faux immediacy and meaningfulness yeah I was gonna ask Nick like

46:43Charlie Eccleshare:what purpose does the football tense serve and I guess it is it just takes you into the moment right

46:47Adam Hurrey:It makes it, as you say, makes it more immediate, makes it more kind of, I don't know, dramatic even. I don't know.

46:52Nick Miller:Yeah, it proves your point without proof. But what this speaks to is this kind of binary thing that most of us have with football is that a team either wins all their tight games and grinds out all that. You know, if you're the champion, you win all your tight games, grind them all out. If you're second, you do none of that. That is so far from the reality is if you're coming second, you're winning loads of tight games. You're just not quite winning enough. And likewise, even Man City, they don't grind out every game in title winning season. There are some where they don't, but this is how we imagine it in our heads.

47:24Nick Miller:And so it's useful or easier to be like, this season, good and grinding out. Last season, bad, not grinding out.

47:32Adam Hurrey:It's like a lead-in line to the old kind of, well, the stuff of champions when they don't play well, but they win games. It's very much in the same family. So, yeah, it's equally flimsy, but yet never really questioned.

47:44Nick Miller:United the other night beating Everton. That feels like an absolute, this time a year ago, they're losing that. They're certainly drawing, but they're not winning it. You know, that's like, it's right in that sweet spot. They weren't even playing at that stadium a year ago.

47:58Charlie Eccleshare:There was a game, I think it was in Chelsea's first Premier League title win under Mourinho. I think they won at Blackburn away and they took their shirts off. And that started a genre of, was like a sub-genre of the type win, hallmark of champions kind of win. And at various points in the last two or three years, Nick, I swear I've sort of detected a moment where I think this is it. This is going to be a Chelsea at Blackburn situation. And it never seems to happen. I'm really annoyed. My radar's off.

48:27Adam Hurrey:I suppose the past few titles have been relatively easily won. like so there hasn't been necessarily like that that that sort of that moment or that those kind of games where yeah you know this is this is stuff of champions kind of thing it was an arsenal game

48:43Charlie Eccleshare:recently they drew at brentford and it had all because it was a night game charlie it has to be a night game and just thought hard for potentially a bit of controversy overcoming the odds of both circumstance and apparent conspiracy and set pieces and then coming through the other side So it has to be a hard-fought win as well in pretty much every sense.

49:03Nick Miller:Yeah, and Brentford are a kind of modern equivalent of a tough place to go. So it would have been perfect.

49:08Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, Tom Hills, excellent observation. Right, our final irritation from our listeners for February comes from Andy Camilla.

49:16Nick Miller:My niche irritation is in the build-up to a tournament when pubs and other public places will have bunting of little flags of all of the countries that have qualified. and it annoys me when it's not the teams that have actually qualified for the upcoming tournament, it's for the previous tournament, or it's just a completely unrelated bunch of flags. And whenever I see this display of all of the flags, I'll have to check and make sure it is teams that have actually qualified. And if, for instance, they have the Swedish flag and Sweden haven't qualified, I'll be much more annoyed than I should be.

49:53Nick Miller:That's it.

49:55Charlie Eccleshare:absolutely spot on i would judge a pub by their bunting behavior nick like have they bothered to get the latest bunting i mean you know brewing companies must dish them out they must have sort

50:07Adam Hurrey:of had them supplied surely yeah it's very kind of jumping on the band my gun of a tournament come come down and watch the footy with the lads kind of stuff isn't it you can't if you've just got you know generic string of bunting and you haven't taken the time to you know either i don't know clip out the the teams that haven't qualified i don't you don't you don't particularly mind if they don't have all the the flags that are of the countries that are there you know if if sweden are have qualified but their flag isn't there don't mind that so much but yeah if if the the wrong one is the up that is incredibly irritating uh charlie why is sweden such a good example here

50:46Charlie Eccleshare:It does feel like the Scandinavian slash Nordic countries are the ones that jump out as wrong. Like, they didn't qualify. They didn't qualify. What are they doing there?

50:55Nick Miller:Is that because they're sort of assumed to always be there, but they're actually not? And they're quite up and down, but the heads will know, like, they weren't there. They definitely weren't there.

51:05Charlie Eccleshare:There's so many factors that involve that make them candidates. Yes, that reason. They're always there or thereabouts when it comes to qualification. Like, they could be there. They could be good. And they tend to be at a tournament, then miss another one. Their flags are quite conspicuous, I guess. Like, you just notice them. You know, it's the crosses. I don't know. And then, I don't know. Hard to say, really. But it's definitely them. He went on to say in a separate message, Charlie, Andy, he said, if a pub dares to reuse flags from a rugby World Cup, I'm walking straight out. I wouldn't put it past some establishments, would you?

51:37Nick Miller:So you've got, like, Samoa and Tonga and Fiji flags. I think questions have got to be asked.

51:43Charlie Eccleshare:Namibia would probably be at World Cup 2030. 30, 34, anyway, probably increased it to 64 teams by then, weren't they, eh? Of all the things that get thrown at FIFA, Nick, you know, for their fiddling around with the World Cup, do you think FIFA have ever stopped to consider the impact of a 48-team World Cup on the half-hearted major tournament pub-bunting culture? Who's footing the bill for this?

52:05Adam Hurrey:Exactly. They just don't think about the common fan, do they? It must be an absolute nightmare for the kind of, for the generic bunting package or whatever. Because you're going to get a load of countries that aren't in it, and then you're going to miss out loads. Because, I mean, who's having the Cape Verde flag in a kind of generic bunting package?

52:28Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I'm really annoyed. I don't know what the Cape Verde flag looks like off the top of my head, Charlie. This World Cup's too far for me.

52:34Adam Hurrey:This came up. Well, I do. And this came up in watching University Challenge recently, and i'm usually an absolute an absolute passenger on university challenge my wife gets more questions right than me um but we are with at least two or three times as i've heard we just turn to each other and go who the fuck would know this but the cape verd flag came up and i uh yeah what a moment got got to i know i know i know i know right i'm so glad it paid off i only took one trip to cape

53:06Charlie Eccleshare:what investment in knowledge that is um yeah tremendous stuff from andy and and for all six of our contributors absolutely bumper crop it was this month thank you to everybody thanks to you charlie eckleshare thank you thanks to you nick miller thank you thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on tuesday see you then