The Agyemang Cacophony, the storm-weathering threshold & how clubs “get their man”

22:19Charlie Eccleshare:What a double helping of cliché material that is. Wow, that was incredible. Wow, yes. Not just the voice, but the energy as well. Yeah, a bit of both. It's right up there with David Walker's, no pressure. That was a bit kesey. Yeah. Not far away, are you? Let's face it. This came from listener Fred next. We were talking on a recent Dreamland episode. In fact, we based a whole entire Dreamland episode about the absurd modern phenomenon of blind ranking and various people in football being forced to blind rank things. This is Florian... No, let me rephrase it. He sent me a video of Florian Wirt's blind ranking potatoes whilst on Germany duty.

23:02Charlie Eccleshare:This is about a year ago. and um so i mean trying to he was trying to employ the usual strategy of blind ranking which is not to over commit too early on i think the first the first option he got was chips so he went oh i quite like chips put them at number two then the second option he got normal potatoes and he put them at number one normal potatoes at number one and that's where they stayed obviously mad as in As in baked? Just literally a picture of normal potatoes, presumably boiled at best, or just on their own, just raw potatoes there. He put them at number one. He's mad! Raw cartoffel.

23:47Charlie Eccleshare:He is an absolute loose cannon. No one knows what he's going to do next, Charlie. Yeah, that's incredible. I mean, of all the thousands, millions of words that have been written about him since joining Liverpool. That feels like the most revealing. Yeah, it should go in the long range, shouldn't it? I'm sorry, Potato Grattan. I'm sorry I haven't got any room for you. Oh no, Sweet Potato. I don't know why I'm doing this, but I'm going to run you through his entire order. Normal Potatoes at number one. Chips at number two. Sweet Potatoes at number three. Number four was Grattan. Number five was Potato Smilies.

24:23Charlie Eccleshare:Number six was kind of sort of fried potatoes. Number seven was a different type of Grattan. Number eight, Mash. Number nine, another gratin. And number ten, knocky. Three gratins. Yeah, I don't know what's going on there. Just doing this. Come on. Yeah, absolute madness. Yeah, it's fine. But yeah, Florian Wurtz likes his potatoes straight down the line. Speaking of Liverpool's transfer activity, Charlie, Michael Hamilton writes in and says, Numerous articles this week are stating that Liverpool had got their man when a fee was agreed for Hugo Eketike, which raised a few queries. Number one, surely Alexander Izak is their man and not the late interest in Eketike.

24:58Charlie Eccleshare:this doesn't feel right to describe a second choice target as your man how do you feel about this yeah i i would agree with that i think um it's another example we're talking about it on tuesday's pod where these things just become people think they can just be used interchangeably but they're not there's a specific reason that is got their man can not just be used about any transfer the status can't shift to the next man it's it's sacred you think it's pretty sacred I think a little bit. It's like, you know, they've got a man. Yeah, they've got a man. I'm not disputing that. The sort of paradigm of this is transfer saga been dragging out for months and months and the Sky Sports News reporters outside the ground ago.

25:39And after weeks, months of negotiations, Manchester United have got their man. And ideally, it's a position they've been looking for for ages as well. It's kind of final piece in the jigsaw type stuff. Like, Ekatuke, they've already signed Verts. They've got Salah. He's not their man.

25:57Charlie Eccleshare:OK, interesting. Dave, I agree with Charlie. There's an overwhelming implication of time having been drawn out over this situation. Question number two for Michael Hamilton is, on the above then, how long does a pursuit have to go on in order to constitute being your man? If either Frankie de Jong or Wesley Snyder now move to Manchester United, do they still count as their men, given the longstanding interest? or is it restricted to a single season slash transfer window? I think it has to be a live issue, doesn't it? Right. Maybe. I mean, Giocares has spanned a few, well, at least two transfer windows now.

26:32There was some talk about it sort of last summer January. Yeah, yeah. He's that man. No question. But yeah, the statute of limitations does not go far enough back to include Wesley Snider coming out of retirement

26:44Charlie Eccleshare:to join Manchester United. No, yeah, absolutely. If I was more desperate for content today, Charlie, I would have done all 20 Premier League clubs as men for the year. From just this window? Yes, you're absolutely right. But on that point then, Charlie, if you had interest in a player across a window, but then your interest cooled, or you just couldn't get the deal done, and then another window came and you got the deal done again, do you have to reapply for the status of your man? No, I think that player is even kind of more entrenched if it's dragged on that long. I think it helps if it's like in Arsenal's case, They haven't signed another striker since they were first linked with Giocares.

27:21He's still filling that role, that need. If they'd signed someone else and then they went back for Giocares, I think it would be slightly different, but there's still the vacancy. And you might hear about an instance like that, like Mikel Arteta has got his man. Because it's a kind of like, we know the manager's been really pushing for this player or this position.

27:41Charlie Eccleshare:You'd hear it more about sporting directors now. Andrea Berta has got his man. It's not your man, it's my man, but fine. Speaking of Arsenal, Sacker the Man writes in, surprisingly enough, and Charlie says, in their write-up on academy players going on tour with the first team, Arsenal have described youngster Tommy Setford as an attack-minded goalkeeper. For my part, you can have attack-minded full-backs and possibly an attack-minded midfielder, but applying that qualifier to goalkeepers is a step too far, even as someone broadly receptive to the new era of tactical language. Thoughts? Yeah, I've never heard an attack-minded goal.

28:15I mean, you could, yeah, you could do like, you know, playing goal. Yeah. I mean, because what's even that? Is that trying to say that he's one of those keepers who as soon as he gets, he's like launching long throws? What else could he do? He's not going up for corners, is he? I mean, plays kind of, I mean, I guess like Edison, you would describe as an attack minded goalkeeper in the sense that he gets assists disproportionately to most keepers. And, you know, he will get it and kind of launch it to an attacker. So I guess if the fact they exist means it's kind of fair enough to describe one like that, assuming Tommy Setford is, and I've got no reason to doubt that.

28:53Charlie Eccleshare:I don't like it, Dave. I don't care if it's quick distribution. I don't care if it's kind of progressive distribution. I just don't want my goalkeepers to be labelled attack-minded. I think it feels entirely unnecessary. Yeah, it's a step too far. Attack-minded. Kesey would hate this. Absolutely hate it. You have a field day with it. More on him later on. this episode is brought to you in association with nordvpn for those who don't know vpn stands for virtual private network it secures your connection protecting your personal information and online activity especially on public wi-fi a vpn can also make your phone or laptop appears if it's in another country which is great for accessing content while traveling very much like mvc's here charlie who caught this nbc promo for the u.s coverage of the new premier league season fairly standard appetite-wetting fare throughout until this line at the end.

30:08Charlie Eccleshare:mental. The Premier League. August 15th and 17th. You're welcome.

30:15Charlie Eccleshare:It seems both slightly wrong, Charlie, and also not a very American thing to say. It's like he was briefly possessed or something. They are completely mental. Mental. There was a bit of that which sounded like Charlie doing an American accent. an approximation of a promo. Yeah, he really did. He's got a very promo voice. You should get into the game, I think. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee and the link is also in the podcast description if you need it.

31:01Charlie Eccleshare:We'll be back very shortly.

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32:58Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is the Midweek Adjudication Panel. very much the Reddit thread of the week in my eyes, Dave. Football articles that we categorically do not need to read ever again from Jackson Keir. Here's some examples that he gave. Rory De Lapp's long throw-ins. Wasn't Andrea Pirlo cool? How La Masse works. The two four threes between Liverpool and Newcastle in the mid-90s. The time David James went up front. Yes, as much as I love it. And they love Chris Waddle in Marseille. I don't know if I've read enough about that, actually, to be honest. This is a great thread. I mean, I was having this thought actually the other day because I was thinking like next year will be 30 years since Euro 96.

33:36And I was thinking like, I do just think there's not really anything left to say about it. It was great. We've talked about it endlessly since. But there will surely be an impulse from lots of places to do it. To feel like, well, it's 30 years. We've got to do something. And you'll get the kind of the same voices telling the same stories. And it does tie into something wider, which I've thought for a while, is that the problem that there is in kind of football media is that you have people who either talk way too much or way too little. And there's very little in between. So the same people you hear from disproportionately often.

34:13And if you could get to these people you never really hear from, great. But, you know, 90 % of the time you're hearing people because they're available, they'll talk. And so you're just hearing kind of the same stories.

34:25Charlie Eccleshare:And just so you can claim the same quotes as your own. As your own, basically. Teddy Sheringham will say exactly the same thing again if you pay him his fee and he'll do it happily, probably at a golf course. The thing is, with anniversaries, that's such an endless treadmill of stuff because there was the 20-year anniversary of Euro 96. I think there was a documentary and there was plenty of articles and pieces around that. There was a load of stuff from the 25th anniversary. I remember doing a 25th anniversary podcast with Alan Shearer at The Athletic, where he spoke to all of his old teammates and largely told the same stories that we've already heard about, you know, how Terry was great with, you know, galvanising the squad and making a siege mentality against the media after the trip to Hong Kong and, you know, how the streets were lined with fans on the coach on the way into Wembley at all the games and how, you know...

35:18Three Lions? Three Lions. I've heard Skinner and Baddiel talk about the moment they heard three lines sung in the stands for the first time so many times they don't want to talk about it anymore like you know they've reached the saturation point i mean even in the 2020 covid lockdown i remember there was quite a lot of euro 96 stuff right remember like the bbc showed it there were various articles and things because it was kind of like there's nothing else going on

35:40Charlie Eccleshare:the big 24th anniversary journalism charlie is a bit like having a bag of sweets basically like it must be tempting to to use them up quickly and but you think no no save it but when you get the to the 20 year mark you think we could do a 20th no don't do it keep the powder dry do it on the 25th don't do it you'll regret it there is something about it though like i think i don't know what study it would have been but i think 20 is quite a potent um it's good i think more so than the 25th big on the nostalgia acts for the 20 year anniversaries yeah for sure but then yeah you get way you just get waves and waves and waves of it but i think there's a good point made on the read it by a last saint he says the thing is as with many of these suggestions there are stories from euro 96 that would be worth reading you know a read a long read about the checks making the final the nature of the dutch capitulation i mean even you know in a more sort of serious sense like everyone forgets that the the bombing in manchester the day of the england scotland game like an incredible story piece of history and yet we will just get another documentary about gaza and Shearer and Sheringham and all that.

36:48Charlie Eccleshare:Elsewhere, Callum JP, Charlie says, Football adjacent but have heard more than enough versions of Duncan Ferguson putting two burglars in hospital. Ali G LCFC says, The tale of the infamous slice of pizza that was thrown at Sir Alex Ferguson. Tam Syndrome replies with, It was a whole pizza, wasn't it? And then someone says, Well, we need an article to clarify this. It was just a slice, wasn't it? I don't know. I think it was more than just a slice. There was also a great comment in there about like, I swear, Cesc Fabregas has been revealed as the man behind it about 15 times, which I did really enjoy.

37:21Charlie Eccleshare:Boxing Day 1963, says Zach Infenma, the one with all the goals. Yeah, maybe we should have, you know, sort of a moratorium on some of these pieces. Next up, I swear, this is now the most auctioned off game in football history. Peter Shilton is auctioning his shirt for the 1986 World Cup game against Argentina. The quarterfinal, the infamous game, hand of God and all that. It's an and all that game, right? Yeah, sure. And a 40-year anniversary next year. So more of that to come. But the thing is, unless you're Argentinian, is that a great shirt to have? Peter Shilton's shirt in its lowest moment?

37:58Charlie Eccleshare:What I would say is, I mean, prestige or not, and it's got an estimated sale price of up to£300 ,000, Dave, it is a banging goalkeeper shirt. I've always thought it looks incredible. The shoulder pads, the sort of silvery sheen to it. The shorts are incredible. I presume they're not included. But it's an underrated goalkeeper shirt. It's overshadowed by the events of that day in my eyes. It is. A few more Dreamland subscribers. You can get yourself in there with the bidding. I've booked centre parks now. I can't afford anything. But yeah, good luck to Schiltz. I hope he gets what he deserves. Right.

38:34Charlie Eccleshare:Alec Thompson writes in next. Quite simple one for you, Charlie. is Chief Secretary to the Treasury Darren Jones the most linesman sounding politician? I haven't had the time to consult a list of MPs yet but it could well be. I'm gonna say yes yeah that's a great shout I think we can safely say yes. How about this from Anon Ben Dave why doesn't the goalkeeper get mentioned by name when they spill the ball? The Italian goalkeeper just spilled a shot with the commentator not mentioning her name instead opting for the goalkeeper spills it or something similar. If a striker misses a sitter, a midfielder misplaces a pass or a defender fouls someone, they always get mentioned by their name.

39:10Charlie Eccleshare:But when a keeper spills a shot, they are referenced by their position. When are other players referenced by their positions? This is absolutely spot on. It's so weird. We had that clip the other day where a commentator referred to, is it a Birmingham player? The gentleman. The gentleman fires it in or whatever. So if it ever happens to another position, yeah, oh, and the striker, follows up you'd think that it was some sort of error and they couldn't identify the goal scorer but the goalkeeper a generic video game commentary or something yeah the goalkeeper just kind of gets away with it and it's fine but you do see this quite a lot Charlie where a specific goalkeeper is just referred to as the keeper in passing I think you would hear that quite a lot but I suppose you might hear the defender gets across maybe if you're not if they're not referring to the player specifically they're referring to what they're doing to the player they're actually talking about.

40:04Charlie Eccleshare:The defender gets across just in time. Or you might say, and he leaves the defender for dead, and you wouldn't think that they're taught that they don't know who the defender is. It's just a kind of... Because they're not the sort of centrepiece of the action. Yeah, they're not the protagonist of it, are they? Yeah. They're slightly on the periphery of it. Right, next up. This might be the exception that proves the rule for why we don't really have footballers on Mesut Haaland Dix on this podcast, because they very rarely have anything interesting to say, but maybe Troy Deeney does. This is the thing that I learnt in the Prem.

40:34So you do like passing drills and you'd go like one touch back, one touch back. But you wanted to hear, dum-dum, dum-dum. That's what you wanted to hear. You wanted to hear, touch on that foot, out quick. Dum-dum, dum-dum. And I remember we had Marco Silva and he did this passing drill and it must have went dum-dum-dum. He went, whoa, whoa, whoa. He wasn't even watching. What the f*** was that? That is sick, you know. Sorry, I just want to... because I don't think I've heard it explained as in music.

41:03Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. This is an incredibly perceptive story, Dave, and the sort of thing I would never have thought about. And it gets to the crux of what I want to know from footballers. What are the minor sensations that only you know about that we would never be able to fathom? And this is basically one of them. Yeah, so this is, I think, Georgini was talking to Bayer Akin Femme there on the Beast Mode podcast. And it's mad to think that a manager like Marco Silva could tell just from the sounds of the rhythm of the passing that the training wasn't quite up to. That's a great part of the story. The idea he just sort of turned around and went, what?

41:37Charlie Eccleshare:No. What the fuck is that? That's like standards. That's what, like inherently DNA level standards in the prem is great. And it should be so ingrained in his mind that it would instantly jump out at him. And it is that little thing of like, I've sort of seen the longer clip as well. And they're talking about as professionals, as two players who've spent a lot of time playing in in the EFL Dini obviously got hit decent heights in the Premier League but players that have played at a lower level as well and when they got to that top level and Baio's played against teams in the FA Cup and stuff it's like even for them they're impressed by the speed and the fizz of the passing from just from like the centre-back who's just in easy possession just fires it into the midfield you always hear people talk about that as well it's like those little things the levels that even we've watched thousands of football matches between us, we still can't really comprehend those little details unless you've actually played.

42:31That's the real stuff. It's like, you never played the game. You don't know.

42:34Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, again, this is a sentiment you hear a lot, Charlie. You've never played the game. And it gets fired at referees. It probably gets fired at, I don't know, radio phone-in callers or whatever. It has logic to it, but it gets dismissed a lot as kind of elitism when it comes to kind of football knowledge. But it's these sorts of stories that should be more proliferated. explain to us why we don't get what it's like to be a professional footballer because we don't get it. Obviously, we have absurd opinions about footballers and they should come back with more stuff like this. It's gold. It's really good.

43:03I know. If you could draw out, what I think is hard is that they wouldn't necessarily know what's really interesting and you need a kind of intermediary to let these two have long conversations and be like, okay, that's fascinating to me as someone who's never played elite football. Like you remember little details, like very small details. Like I remember so vividly. And this is even more basic, but just I remember years ago, Chelsea, as they often do in the third round of the FA Cup, played a far lower league team. And one of the players asked him, what's the biggest difference about playing a Premier League team?

43:37And he said Ashley Cole's fitness and energy, the way he got up and down was just like unlike anything I'd ever seen before. It was like mind blowing. And that's not something, I'm sure everyone in the game would know that. They'd tell her, oh, Ash, yeah, he was unbelievable. But we'd never pick up. We'd never see that. You'd just think, oh, yeah, he was quite a good left back.

43:56Charlie Eccleshare:More visceral stuff that you'd see in the flesh and be in close quarters with. I don't know. It makes me think of all the sort of stuff that we're not privy to, that professional footballers who play 400 or 500 games, Dave, might just have ingrained in their brain as irritations. Something like this. Whenever you got flagged offside out on the wing but the lines were behind you and all you could hear was the ruffle of the flag, something like that. that's the sort of shit I want on MHD. Imagine if someone pipes up with that. We got some Barclisman on. That'd be brilliant. I would be beside myself.

44:28Charlie Eccleshare:That would go with the episode title. It'd be brilliant. Get Charlie's mate Pippo Inzaghi on for that one. Yeah. Right, next up. A story from a policeman, no less, that justifies the last year or two of my life, at least. He says, I'm a detective for a police force on the south coast and found myself having to watch two hours of CCTV TV from a local kebab house. About five minutes into the footage, a member of staff came out from behind the counter and turned the telly onto a football match. Obviously, I immediately stopped concentrating on what I was supposed to be watching and started trying to work out what the game was.

44:59Charlie Eccleshare:It was fairly easy to work out the two teams, Nigeria and Argentina. I was also absolutely convinced it was an American stadium. I settled on the group stage game at USA 94, but then I saw Kanu. I was stumped. Of course, I'd forgotten about the Atlanta Olympics. Cue a 96 Olympics rabbit hole whilst watching the full game and completely ignoring the potential interaction between my two suspects. I had a really hard time not talking about the football in the interview when the suspects were later arrested. What? This is incredible. Fair play. I know what I'm watching if I'm studying that CCTV footage, so I don't blame him at all.

45:35Charlie Eccleshare:That's amazing, yeah. The Atlanta Olympics. They won it as well, didn't they? Nigeria, I think. Yeah. I mean, in a way, Charlie, it's dereliction of his duty as a detective for this police force on the south coast but he's fronting up here yeah yeah um but at the same time yeah proves his proves his credentials as a as a hot shot detective that's eye for detail that might come in useful yeah good process just was directly where he should i mean yeah that was an amazing that was my first time i ever saw ronaldo yes who i think was called ronaldinho correct that time was on the back of his shirt ronaldinho and all the graphics on the tv yeah class yeah i'm yeah Yeah, which is, and I remember, and then being confused, I then saw him a year later or something, he's run out.

46:15I was like, is that guy from the Olympics? Should be Ronald Dow now, shouldn't he, really? You were there in the kebab house, weren't you? You were watching Nigeria v Argentina from the Olympics, weren't you? Who are Argentina's overage players in the 1996 Olympics, mate?

46:29Charlie Eccleshare:I don't think so. Right, finally, Joe Wood writes in, Dave, and says, My daughter finished year five last week and claims she is now a year six. are we having that? When does this season become last season? Daring Milk replied with for me it's August bank holiday a weekend when attention turns to next term. What if they announce the curriculum or what? The pre-season. Yeah. That's a great question. My own child asked me the same thing. She's finished year one she says I'm now year two and I said you're not. You're not year two yet. It doesn't start until the first day of the term. You're nothing.

47:03Charlie Eccleshare:You're in limbo. Don't wish you days away. Yeah. It's a short career. Yeah. Oh, yeah, standing by it. Anyway, speaking of rolling back the years, it's time for a little Keys and Grey Corner.

47:30Charlie Eccleshare:Ford Super Sunday.

47:35Charlie Eccleshare:Couldn't resist this. Could have saved it for next week, but I'm not going to. It's some retro Keys and Grey. all the way back to mid-lockdown 2020. And this is the top item on episode 42 of the Keys and Grey show. And you wouldn't believe what we've just been talking about. Perhaps we should let you into the inner sanctum. We're about to with our guest today at Manchester United. So eggs, three and a half minutes. Yes, yes. Because, you see, I find though, Richard, three and a half, I asked you what your perfect egg is. Boiled eggs are three and a half minutes. That would have been my normally.

48:06But what I found, you see, if it's the large eggs, yes. Right, if it's a large egg. Large free range. Oh, obviously, yes. Yeah. Organic, if I can. Yeah. So, if it's a large egg, three and a half minutes is perfect. But if it's a small egg, I think three and a half minutes, my yolk's about too firm. From boiling. Yes, from boiling. Which is important. That's important. And yes, the other question you asked me. Big potatoes. You can use the smaller potatoes. I tend to slice the top through them so they've got room to expand. Just a little cross?

48:38Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, just a couple of lines and you can use the smaller ones. I always give them 10 minutes in the microwave But I always add an extra minute or two in the oven to crisp the shell Oh, I don't do the oven better at the end. It's very good and beans and cheese. Oh to die for me too We can't dwell too much on this having Used the time that we've got for the cookery class, but I'll just run you through a few of these because they're fascinating it's like Troy Deeney talking about the rhythm of footballs all again. This is the sort of granular detail we want on this podcast. Get them on, Dave. Get them on.

49:14Charlie Eccleshare:So many tiny appeals for clarification during that. Just a little cut. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To die for. Because, you know, Charlie, being insiders, have told me that this is the sort of granular chat that Keys and Gray have all the time about football or not. So they're football brains. At the golf club. yeah exactly they're advanced football brains and you know it does make me wonder I think they'd do a great joint MHD you know yeah they really would so sorry this was in during lockdown 2020 they were just sort of filling time it's very 2020 isn't it yeah other than that it was just endless sort of headlines about clubs wanting to start the season again and that sort of stuff so they made you feel the time somehow we were all scraping the barrel back then anyway thanks to you Charlie Eccleshshare thank you thanks to you Dave Walker thank you Thanks to everyone for listening.

50:04Charlie Eccleshare:The Clichés Pod will be back on Tuesday. See you then.

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