The Cape Verdean Dan Burn, Keysey the actor & the Communication XI

18:11Nick Miller:yeah we need le tournois which obviously came just before england had qualified but that that did it perfectly it sort of demystified a little bit that like oh you've got to play these big teams but on that but I mean what a journey because it wasn't so long ago if you think like England qualifying for World Cup 98 that it was a kind of well how will they fare in France that's a question for another day which is the kind of where you are you know like Cape Verde would have had that you know how will they do well that's not for now sort of thing but we're so far beyond that that as you say Adam now we're at a point where when England qualify it's the well it doesn't really mean anything because you know what's this told us?

18:46Charlie Eccleshare:Nick you know you know the old kind of mentality of tailoring your pre-tournament friendlies by who you're actually paying at the tournament so picking a geographically adjacent team and assuming that they're going to provide you with a similar test you know they had a little tournament before Euro 2004 it was Iceland and Japan and England in a three-team tournament and what England should do you know to get themselves up to speed is basically at the very last minute well probably not either last minute because it will all be confirmed well in advance pick the best two teams who haven't qualified for the World Cup and get them in a little three-team tournament against England.

19:17Charlie Eccleshare:And that will be the midway point, surely. Teams who aren't good enough to be at the World Cup but are still strong enough not to be fodder before the tournament begins. I've solved it. This is it. And we'll be ready for your France's. I suppose there you have the problem of whether these countries will accept it because it'll just look like you're lording it over them. That is a bit insulting, isn't it? Come over Italy. You'll have a nice little tournament. We're going to the World Cup. you've got the rest of the summer off so you can you know you'll probably need a game to keep ticking over won't you have a nice time here while we're in America see you I'd be invited to the reception of a wedding but not the wedding itself you're an evening guest maybe the other way around is worse or neither of course truly right I am as England now turn their attentions Charlie to who will be in the squad for the World Cup I've got plenty of kind of affectionate derision for the on the plane format we've discussed it many a time on this podcast but it feels like it's particularly worthwhile as an exercise as it's ever been this time there's like some good competition for places in midfield and attacking areas but to kind of explain why i think it's most relevant this time who is the most in the departure lounge england player right now so that is not on the plane but in the departure lounge so that's what the kind of fringe the

20:35Nick Miller:players who aren't guaranteed but could but could still make it i admit i've completely forgotten

20:39Charlie Eccleshare:what in the departure lounge means. That basically is what it means, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. In the reckoning, but not on the team. Harry Kane's on the plane. Yeah.

20:47Nick Miller:He's flying the plane, mate. I mean, would Adam Wharton at Crystal Palace, he feels like he, you know, a lot of people feel he should be in that squad and he might make himself, you can't not pick him because he's been so good. That's exactly who I had in mind.

21:03Charlie Eccleshare:Exactly who I had in mind. I think he's dominating the departure lounge now, Nick. Adam Wharton. Who else is in there? I don't know whether it hit the ones in the departure lounge, because the departure lounge, I don't know whether this is just people are getting too worked up about it, but there's this sense that he's not going to pick him. He's not going to pick him now for the squad. Is he getting going, do you think? Well, I don't know. I don't think so. But I would have thought someone like Morgan Rodgers would probably be more, because he's been in the team the last few games. He played last night.

21:37But is he playing in a position where there are other, like, more high-profile players who are, you know, currently unavailable? Cole Palmer, Jude Benningham, of course. Yeah. So he's probably, you know, he's one of those players that has a pretty good chance of getting picked but isn't a kind of, you know, isn't a lock. It's a good shout, actually.

21:55Nick Miller:Yeah, and Dave's honour with him not being here, just to get a bit literally Dave about it. I mean, it doesn't quite work as an analogy, does it? Just because you don't go to a departure lounge unless you're sure you're getting on a plane. You're not just sort of speculatively, I'm just going to hit the lounge and just see what flights come up. Maybe there'll be some cancellations. I mean, maybe some people do that.

22:12Charlie Eccleshare:Pre-9-11, you could go and wave someone off in the departure lounge, couldn't you? You could go all the way there and say, right, have a great trip. Look after yourself. Don't do anything I wouldn't.

22:21Nick Miller:I don't even imagine Adam Wharton will be doing this. All right, best of luck, boys. Sorry not to be there. If any of you don't fancy it, I'll come on, but I've got my passport and case. You do have standby. Well, yeah, I think standby would be more, yeah, standby is a thing.

22:37Charlie Eccleshare:On the bus that takes you from a plane to the airport or vice versa. What a place that would be. Who's on that? The second choice goalkeeper, I guess. Yeah, love this. Right, now, I'm willing to place some trust in Stan Collymore here, Nick. I can't be asked to look at the potential permutations for the World Cup draw, but he says, it's unlikely, but this could happen next summer. England could be drawn in a group with Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. We can't have that at a football tournament. I don't know what I would do with that. Would I watch it? I think I'd be massively befuddled.

23:10No, I can't. That simply will not do. Even though I am primarily a cricketman, that would just feel too rugby.

23:18Nick Miller:It would, although you never obviously get that in a group in a Rugby World Cup because of how the seedings work. But they have tri-tournaments away, don't they? Well, there's the tri-nations, yeah. Well, now it's four-team, but England replacing Argentina. But yes, it obviously does feel overwhelmingly rugby.

23:36Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, there's essentially no football baggage there at all, Charlie, let alone World Cup heritage in that group. I don't know how the pre-tournament previewers would even approach a group like that. What would you do? Go and sit in Clapham for a bit and that's it.

23:52Nick Miller:There would be a lot to go at just because, I don't know, There are going to be so many links to England amongst those three nations, aren't there? So it would be a bit of an open goal in many ways. Clive Woodward's player ratings.

24:06Ansh Postacoglu's next summer is wrapped up as a pundit in the studio because it doesn't feel like he's going to be busy elsewhere at the moment.

24:14Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I mean, this is just one of many, it's a very extreme example, but it's one of many reasons why this World Cup needs a recalibration of what people expect their World Cup experience is going to be like. Donnie Amui writes in, Nick, and says, The World Cup next year is going to have 27 consecutive days of football before the first rest day. That is absurd. I mean, it's the sort of conversation we like having on this podcast before tournaments about, you know, the televisual experience. And as you get older, your appetite for taking 100 % of it in seems to wane for all sorts of reasons. I don't know if I've got 27 consecutive days in me, mate.

24:48I don't know. I don't know either. The last World Cup, very poorly planned, was on holiday in somewhere where it was quite difficult to watch the games. So it was a very odd experience. It kind of broke it all up. But yeah, 27, that's too many, isn't it? I mean, there's always a bit of an arms race for people to post the there is no football on today thing on the first rest day of a tournament. But you need those days a little bit, don't you?

25:17Charlie Eccleshare:This might be the first World Cup rest day that I'll actually enjoy, Charlie, and not feel bereft. I think we're all going to have a big sigh of relief here, I think.

25:26Nick Miller:Yeah, I mean, in total, the World Cup goes on for a month, and then June 11th to July 19th. So it's quite a lot longer than a month. That is a lot. That is a real endurance test.

25:38Charlie Eccleshare:Robert Warren speculates, Charlie, that the first Saturday of the World Cup is going to be someday. 3pm Iran versus Scotland, 6pm Cape Verde versus Bolivia, 9pm Uzbekistan versus Burkina Faso, midnight Jordan versus Jamaica, 3am New Zealand versus Saudi Arabia. Jordan versus Jamaica sounds like something that would have been on Channel 5 in 1999.

25:58Nick Miller:Yeah, what a day that will be.

26:00Charlie Eccleshare:Not in a bonnie blue kind of way. That won't make it in, probably. I mean, just take those games and those time slots as a speculative whole. there's bucket loads of intrigue there but in a footballing sense how invested could you be you're dampening my view season for the world cup but already it's kind of painting this as a sort of endurance test i'm just a very tired man right now that's it i think that's coming through quite loud and clear i don't think we've kind of fully we kind of complain about the the number of teams in the world cup for like competitive reasons or the balance of the tournament all this stuff but yeah i don't think we really have really yet computed about what i don't know i don't want to use the word slog but you know that that amount of 12 hours of games that's that's a lot yeah on that note charlie a bellwether for international football enthusiasm is rob fielder uh on twitter who who massively knowledgeable football international football historian i trust his opinion on many things he says great for cape verd but i won't be staying up till 3 a.m to watch them play uzbekistan in kansas and i think it made me think about how i really am gonna sort of pinpoint my enthusiasm for all of this football in 2026 and i think i'll watch cape verd's first game and then i will gently lose interest in their world cup fortunes as it goes along on the assumption that they will go out in the group stage yeah i think that's fair i also think these

27:14Nick Miller:the time differences are going to you do become aware of how much you really want to watch something like it's very different to something just being presented to you at a convenient time and like yeah i'll put that on so then to stay up you know to kind of ruin your next day that's that's a big call that people are going to have to make anyway this episode is brought to you in

27:29Charlie Eccleshare:association with NordVPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands a virtual private network. It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi. A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while traveling. If you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to nordvpn.com slash cliches, and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available. There's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it we'll be back very shortly the world's biggest soccer tournament has arrived and you can trade the entire tournament

28:13Nick Miller:on calci on calci you can trade every match from the opening stage all the way to the final on calci you're trading against peers in a live market meaning there's no house and as the probability changes you can buy in and out of your position for a limited time download the CalShee app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I CalShee. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calshee.com slash regulatory.

28:45Charlie Eccleshare:This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

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29:43Oh, look at that! That is wonderful! Wonderful!

29:50Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. A reminder for£5.99 a month, you can sign up for Dreamland. For that money, you'll get ad-free listening, two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive new show, and all sorts of other things as well, including discounts on our upcoming merch, which will be available as soon as the tour is finished. Charlie, the caps seem to be flying off the merch shelves at live shows. I had my cap-related doubts, but I've been silenced.

30:16Nick Miller:No, that's great. I'm not a capman myself, so um hats off uh lovely didn't even mean didn't even set myself up for that uh to all of those who are and who have been buying them i guess cap's quite good it's a sort of i don't know people probably feel it's like an appropriate level of clothing item to be wearing you know it's not too obsessive but it's like a nice little nod to their it is a subtle nod beloved podcast

30:43Charlie Eccleshare:incredible cap wearing incredible cap wearing ratio in the front row at the hackney empire show nick um reassuring in some senses and were these all official football cliches tm caps no no no caps of all you know all flavors all um all various cultural references um but yeah it's to be expected let's return to more domestic football actually now nick ranger still scrabbling about to find a successor to Russell Martin. Steven Gerrard pulled out of the process. And the rumoured next favourite for the job is Kevin Muscat. And I thought to myself briefly, I had a quick consultation of his Wikipedia page to make sure.

31:22Charlie Eccleshare:And it turns out that Rangers are hiring an Australian bloke who played for South Melbourne in the 1990s, then won the A-League as a coach, and then the J-League with Yokohama F Marinos. They're basically just copying somebody else's homework. This is mad. You can't do this. quite different personalities though I think it's fair to say I mean Neil Warnock's phone must be kind of buzzing the prospect of Muscat being back in. Seems a strange choice to me Charlie

31:49Nick Miller:He also succeeded Ange I believe at Melbourne Victory so there is quite a lot of crossover between the two and then yeah succeeded him at Yokohama so he has been on that trajectory for some time so I guess it would make sense that as he's done well He's just continued to kind of follow the path that Ange did.

32:09Charlie Eccleshare:I'm not suggesting, Nick, that Rangers' decision making at the highest level might be slightly askew. But I do love these outbreaks of football logic where people just copy other things that have happened to other clubs. And it happens all the time, you know, with various innovations like set-piece coaches and things like that. And, you know, Chelsea selling a hotel to themselves and the Villa going, oh, maybe we can do something like that as well. It blows my mind that at the top level of football clubs, they just go, oh yeah, I didn't realise we could do that. Let's do that. Yeah, I think we've all done similar things at some point.

32:40It's like a kind of deluxe version of that thing in the 90s when Premier League team signed a Scandinavian and he turned out to be quite good. So I think we probably need to get one of those in.

32:50Nick Miller:But it does make sense. I mean, because you can think to yourself, well, is there like this massive untapped market that we've been overlooking? You saw it as well. I'm sure after like Mitoma was so good at Brighton, there was then a lot of like, oh, why aren't we, you know, there must be loads of talent over there. And ditto with Ange, there probably are people saying like, oh, are we a bit too insular in the types of managers we appoint? You know, Australians, Americans, they tend to be kind of derided in European football. And, you know, that's probably wrong. Let's go and see what's out there.

33:21Charlie Eccleshare:Fair enough. We can't all be innovators, I guess. Little footballers names and things for you now. Steve writes in, Nick, and says, I was searching for part-time jobs near me in Southwark and came across one for a crossing guard outside of school on a council website. To discuss the role, you had to email Emerson Boyce.

33:41Nick Miller:It must be the same one. Yeah, that's not a particularly popular name. I once spoke to him for a piece on Spurs 9, Wigan 1. Emerson Boyce at gov.co. Exactly. We got a bit to his crossing guard stuff. No, he's a very nice man.

33:58Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, he must have a new job because he's not the technical director of Barbados anymore. So maybe he's in charge of hiring lollipop ladies, which you probably can't call them anymore. Well, we used to call them lollipop ladies. Swallowed a traffic cone. Fascinating Reddit thread from a while ago, Charlie. people took it upon themselves to reframe football cliches or classic football cliches or even newfangled ones as framed by this podcast as films so a bit of both a classic richard curtis rom-com from 2008 says sand hanatizer starring hugh grant and keira knightley is the unlikely couple from two hilariously mismatched families critically panned but had a reasonable successful run in theaters um this is where it's going this is the direction it's going solid would you watch

34:46Nick Miller:a film called a bit of both i i can imagine sort of vaguely having it you know one of those like oh it's on i'll watch it this is probably just like quite pleasant wash over me but this is an amazing thread or sort of original post by san anitizer with yeah various film options very

35:01Charlie Eccleshare:creative stuff nick whisper it quietly a 2012 mystery slash horror period piece starring killian murphy as a troubled writer who returns to his old countryside village following the mysterious death of his mother played by vanessa redgrave disappointment on opening but it's become seen as something of a cult classic. Whisper It Quietly is a very plausible mystery horror film, right? That's perfect. Yeah, that is absolutely perfect. He's nailed the casting there as well. That's superb. I won't do all of these, Charlie, but I'm going to do all the good ones. For My Sins, originally Pour Ma Peche, this brooding French legal drama stars Juliette Binoche as a young criminal lawyer taking on what she believes to be a routine case that spirals into nearly destroying her career.

35:41Charlie Eccleshare:Three hours long and has a huge audience slash critics discrepancy on Rotten Tomatoes. The translation of the title here, Charlie, is elite. Well done.

35:49Nick Miller:This is superb. I mean, I do think the person who put this together must have a very good knowledge of film. It even works in the film industry, but I would definitely recommend seeking this out on Reddit because it is superb.

36:00Charlie Eccleshare:For more details about it, I'm going to do two more. Listen Fair Play, Nick, a 2018 drama about a major doping cover-up in Irish rugby union, starring Saoirse Ronan as the soft-spoken team doctor and whistleblower, and Brendan Gleeson as the assertive coach trying to keep the scandal from breaking. Nominated for several BAFTAs, including a directing win for Stephen Frears. That's nice. I did think, on the spot, I was trying to think of my own, I did think, listen, exclamation mark, fair play, is like a sort of 1950s screwball comedy starring Doris Day and Rock Hudson. Love it. Let's stick with the 1950s because Gets the Shot Away, a 1950s western about a legendary marksman on the run from the law in rural New Mexico in the Reconstruction Era, stars Gregory Peck as a morally conflicted officer of the law and is sometimes credited with reviving the genre as a whole before Sergio Leone came along.

36:51Charlie Eccleshare:This is great! Who is this person? To really fit with that, would it have an unexpected musical number in the middle of it or something like that? I really hope so. Finally, Silly Machines. Aardman Animation's attempt to branch into sci-fi in 2015 starring Eddie Izzard and Stephen Fry who provide their voices to a group of obsolete robots. Cast aside in a dystopian future who band together to take down a super AI and prove that all machines have a purpose, no matter how silly. This should have been made, regardless of its football cliches connection. Yeah, just incredible work. Is this all from the same person?

37:26Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, actually, it is. Yeah, I didn't bother with the comments. The original post did all the job for us. I mean, if there's anything more midweek adjudication panel than that, I can't think of it right now.

37:36Nick Miller:In an international break. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:39Charlie Eccleshare:The perfect storm. But after the frankly rampant success of the movement 11 from last week, which before we did it, I thought was somewhere towards the bottom of the barrel, but turned out to be an absolute triumph. I want to move on to the communication 11. These are various methods of expressing yourself in and around a football pitch for a team of 11 players. I want to start with a goalkeeper, Nick. I want my goalkeeper to be barking, barking instructions. And who's the biggest barker of instructions in goalkeeping history? Peach Michael. Big time.

38:10Nick Miller:The Great Dane. Yeah.

38:12Charlie Eccleshare:Goalkeepers are the primary barkers in football, right, Charlie?

38:15Nick Miller:Yeah. I mean, I also had bellowing instructions, which I was thinking might be more of a manager thing. But either way, clearly, you know, that kind of Schmeichel paradigm is really important here.

38:24Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Hardline assistant managers could definitely bark or bellow. No question. But yeah, let's give precedence to the people on the pitch. So barking goalkeeper is the first one. Right back. I'm going to go slightly more figurative here, Nick. Letting him know you're there, which not a literal form of communication but i suppose you know uh it still counts yeah yeah so this is the early reducer rather than the kind of um like you know you're covering the winger or something like that well this is an interesting point charlie um when i was thinking about this you know what is this you know classic scenario for letting a player know you're there is it as violent as a reducer or is it more like you know just you know a little kick at the heels really sort of tight oh yeah little ankle tap or treading on their toes yeah like that was it you close quarters.

39:07Nick Miller:I think it can be any of those things. Right. There are many ways to let a winger know you're there.

39:11Charlie Eccleshare:Letting him know you're there because it feels too subtle

39:13Nick Miller:to be an absolute reducer to me.

39:16Charlie Eccleshare:So maybe it's just the early sort of pleasantries before. Over to left back we go now, Charlie. Now, the wide positions lend themselves more to communication with the linesman. So I'm going to go with haranguing for left back.

39:27Nick Miller:Yeah, that's a good one. I mean, it's hard with left back and right back. There's general just like being described as mouthy but that, you know, that can manifest in various different ways and like as Nick says there's the the winger and fullback there is that thing of like this is maybe more of a Sunday league theme it's like look when I go forward you know I'm going to overlap a bit I'll let you know I'm doing it you need to sort of cover in for me so it's kind of like the I don't know having that dialogue with the other person on your side This is like the Stephen Kranman line where he said when he moved to Real Madrid playing with Michel Salgado the first words in Spanish he learnt were cover me There you go Yeah there you are

40:03Charlie Eccleshare:into the centre of our defence we go I mean, really basic stuff here. This is where talking happens, isn't it, Joe? Lots of talking back there. Lots of talking. And that's primarily the responsibility of the centre-half over the goalkeeper, I would say. The organising alpha centre-half, I think. That has to be. You're virging Van Dijk's kind of thing. I wondered about... I had balling out for one of these things, which feels goalkeeper-y. Again, it feels Peter Schmeichel kind of screaming at his players, screaming at his defence for not dealing with the corner or whatever it was. But I suppose you could have that as a sort of marshalling central defender as well.

40:39Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, definitely. I think Van Dijk's often a good proponent of this, Charlie, which is when he has to essentially do all the defending by himself and wonders where everybody is. And then concedes a corner and has at least about seven or eight seconds to ball out his retreating midfielders for not getting back in time.

40:55Nick Miller:Yeah, berating him as well. And yeah, the specific acts of things like putting a name on it, the instructions of things like don't let the ball bounce.

41:03Charlie Eccleshare:I think centre-backs, you know, the big things in their in-train, Nick, is putting their name on it for a header. So, yeah, talking and putting your name on it.

41:10Nick Miller:That's also quite a central midfielder thing, though, as well. Yeah, from a goal kick. The kind of mouthy centre-mid whose name you don't stop hearing all game because they're just like, they're so obsessed with putting a name on everything.

41:22Charlie Eccleshare:You've played Sunday League with some really annoying people by the sounds of it.

41:25Nick Miller:I think that's like a Sunday League staple, that kind of scrappy centre-mid who loves putting a name on it. I do. I really feel a disadvantage in these moments, given that I haven't played Sunday League since I think I was 15. Very much a focus. Don't imagine it's changed much, the level of communication.

41:42Charlie Eccleshare:I was going to use berate for my right winger because they could berate a linesman for a poor off-cycle. So berating, is berating worse than haranguing? I mean, they're pretty level. It feels slightly more aggressive. Haranguing is more of a constant thing, but berating is a sort of short, sharp burst of abuse. Love it. Yeah. Okay. Charlie, more figurative again. I want my left winger to ask questions of a fullback. I'm not struggling for ideas, are you?

42:11Nick Miller:No, that's a great, I mean, yeah, I like the more sort of abstract ones. I just like the idea of that being taken literally, just like constantly asking him information, like, do you know what pitch this is? Like, no, I'm just a bit confused. How long's left? Yeah. How long are you lot getting on this is?

42:26Charlie Eccleshare:I've got a more bigger picture with my central midfield, Nick. I want my totemic central midfielder to issue rallying cries. I mean, especially if they're the captain. So yeah, or a war cry. Yeah, roaring also. Maybe that's kind of tabloid-ese, but it's kind of... Yeah, I don't mind it. Yeah, it's very much a subset of that. What is the textbook roar? What do players roar about in the tabloids? England can win the World Cup, roars Harry Kane.

42:53Nick Miller:He's going to roar, isn't he? It's a manager or a player saying something that's, yeah, kind of vaguely confident or G-ing up.

43:02Charlie Eccleshare:It can only be a sort of semi-committal prediction of striving to do something, can't it? I mean, could, say, for example, a Cape Verdean, Nick, roar that they're not there to make up the numbers? That's not enough of a roar, is it? That's an insist, I think. Oh, right. That's more of an insist. They insist that they're not just there for the holiday. Yeah, it's not enough of a roar. We're not just here to make up the numbers!

43:27Nick Miller:it's not good enough sentiments lift the team as well I feel like with their you know both with their gestures but also with their talking and sometimes with their actions as well passionate team I love this for your sort of playmaker midfield playmaker I had demanding like you're demanding the ball oh yeah yes I had a similar thing for forwards that thing of like you know kind of screaming at players to find them you know this thing of like you know and that poor striker who's not getting the service. He's been screaming all game. He's making the runs in behind and they're just not finding him.

43:59I had, we were jumping ahead in the team here, but I had, for that kind of situation, quite specific, like when a striker is waiting for a cross or a through ball, imploring. Imploring? Yeah. The ball we played through or crossed to them.

44:14Charlie Eccleshare:That has to be accompanied with the Thierry Henry pointy down hands of why haven't you found me in this situation? That's an implore. Yeah, let's move on to our forward line. Charlie, big fan of telepathic understanding between two forwards. And that is a form of communication. It might not be proven, but I'm all right with it.

44:32Nick Miller:They don't need to communicate verbally. That's the level of understanding.

44:36Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, telepathic. And I want my other striker, Nick, to let his football do the talking, actually. You know, the purest form of communication in football, I would say. Absolutely. What to do with remonstrating. Because that is a... You can bundle that in with the referee thing, remonstrating with the referee of decision but i had very specifically i had morgan gibbs white in my head remonstrating with his because he's quite a he looks like a real pain in the ass to to be on the same team because he's having a go at his teammates all the time so he's sort of remonstrating with them for not feeding him the ball for not kind of playing the right passes and all that kind of stuff he's got a really remonstratey face actually now i think about it yeah from from what i understand like people don't people like him but he is you know people say well oh yeah, he demands high standards and we've got to live up to those.

45:24Nick Miller:Well, that's, yeah, because remonstrating, obviously you often think of about a player remonstrating towards a referee or something. But Adam, you mentioned Henri. He was also a great remonstrator to his teammates in the same way as Gibbs White of a kind of like, I've got extremely high standards. How are you not matching up to them? And related to letting his football do the talking, for some players, strikers, their numbers speak for themselves. So the numbers are doing their talking. They don't need to do any talking.

45:48Charlie Eccleshare:Sorry to go basically quite episode seven of football cliches back in 2020, but you never hear remonstrate outside of football. It can't be the last time I ever heard the word remonstrate.

45:58Nick Miller:Remonstrate, yeah.

45:59Charlie Eccleshare:Or where you could possibly use it. Could you use it as like, you remonstrate against a parking attendant or something like that? I've only been here five minutes, I just nipped into that.

46:09Nick Miller:It's a very similar energy, complaining about a parking ticket to complaining about a booking. It's like, first offence, come on.

46:17Charlie Eccleshare:Speaking of which, the Football Clichés Live Tour was overshadowed by me receiving a penalty notice for driving through a bus gate in Brighton. I don't know the city. I just don't know it. I'm also a shit driver, which doesn't help. On remonstrating, though, I really need to make this point. Berating haranguing seems very one way, Nick. You're basically just pouring out all your vitriol towards a kind of poor kind of recipient. Remonstrating has an element of debate about it. Like there should be a back and forth in a remonstration. You're looking for feedback. yeah it's it's it's it's kind of one dominated by one side it feels like a sort of 70 30 thing whether the player is doing most of the remonstrating but the the referee or whoever else it is has kind of tried to justify whatever it is being remonstrated against but yeah you're right there is a there is a an element of debate about it yeah very chatty very mouthy team this as a whole um i think might be one of the most annoying teams ever constructed

47:39We'll see you next time. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. Not available in all areas. Learn more at Xfinity.com slash same day Wi-Fi.

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48:22Charlie Eccleshare:This summer, serve up the cookout classics, Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles.

48:27Nick Miller:Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft.

48:39Charlie Eccleshare:Speaking of people who just won't ever shut up, It's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

49:02Charlie Eccleshare:A rare midweek Keys and Grey Corner. What a treat for absolutely everyone, but I had to address this straight away. Anyone who's trying to access Richard Keys' blog this week will be disappointed by one. There is no blog this week. He's in Mallorca, as is his want for the international breaks. A little caption on his Instagram post the other day, Nick, as he surveyed yet another Mallorcan sunset, a glass of wine in hand. He said, real men drink rosé. Lovely. I actually haven't seen the, not really, for some reason, not really familiar with the construction of these pictures. Is he a picture of himself with the wine or picture of the glass of wine with scene in the background?

49:42Or latter. Big time.

49:44Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, it doesn't take pictures of himself. It's all scenery. And, you know, I respect his privacy. But speaking of privacy, Charlie, anybody trying to, you know, peruse old versions of his blog were met with a dramatic message on his website. Your connection is not private. Attackers might be trying to steal your information from richardajkeys.com. for example passwords messages or credit cards learn more about this warning oh god has he been going on as he yeah as he forgot to i don't know renew his subscription to his redirection i don't

50:16Nick Miller:know worrying times yeah you need to get it back i mean it needs to come back soon yeah maybe when he goes to write his next blog he'll he'll become aware of it um speaking of kesey and sunnier

50:26Charlie Eccleshare:climbs it is astonishing that we've never really confronted this but i'm you know having said that I never really watched this programme in the first place. But here is Richard Keyes' cameo in Dream Team. And I think it's genuinely good acting, all things considered. Linda Block, you're nicked. Richard, what are you doing here? Same as you. I'm here for the Champions League game. I'm not. Oh, come on. Of all the pools in all the world, I find you lying by this one. No, seriously, I'm not. I'm on holiday. Permanent holiday. No more football, no more Rochester. Which is why you're staying at Jeff Steinsville?

51:06How'd you know I was here?

51:08Charlie Eccleshare:Well, actually, it's my job to know things, isn't it? I also know where you and I can get a decent view of the sunset and some first-class champagne. A mate of mine has got a boat in the port, and me and you are invited for drinks. It's very sweet of you, but I don't really see people at the moment. I'm not the best of company. Oh, come on, Linda, don't make me beg. It's not a pretty sight.

51:30Charlie Eccleshare:no okay well i'll just stay here in your sun until you say yes it takes a little moment to warm up here charlie but i'm really impressed with kesey in this scene i mean i mean cameos from known figures playing themselves in in films and tv can be a very stilted affair can be very wooden i think my favorite bit is oh come on linda don't make me beg don't make me beg it's just really well done i just like it a couple of bits a bit less

52:01Nick Miller:central a mate of mine yeah yeah that that was i did here with jeff stein's villa who was an a jeff stein was an a notorious agent right for many of the hardchester players it also bringing it full circle i believe that was in mallorca i believe the champions league tie where hardchester were and we know Keezy IRL is a big Mallorca fan yeah I mean he it's also just a testament to how kind of towering a figure at Sky Keezy was in kind of the late 90s early noughties that no I don't know exactly whether he would have asked to do it or have been asked but either way you know it was like uh yeah Keezy's just everywhere you know that was a Sky One program uh but yeah a pretty accomplished cameo.

52:45Nick Miller:I mean, it is, there's a bit of the early keys, the T's are very pronounced, and I think he'd largely dropped that in broadcasting, but I think he's acting, so he thinks, right, you know, diction has to be very clear here, Richard. But other than that, it's pretty natural.

52:59Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, he needs to come across as a rather sophisticated figure here, despite playing himself in this Nick. I don't want to go overboard about his acting ability. You know, I've got no need to. But you are nominating for an Oscar. But yeah, if we were to pinpoint his level here, he'd be a really compelling soap opera baddie. There's a real kind of Richard Hillman vibe about him for Corrie. Dark forces could be within here, definitely. He could murder an entire family in a soap opera. I'll confess my knowledge of the history of soap opera is a little bit hazy. Richard, was he one of the kind of sweeps into town, charms someone, they get married, and then it turns out he's killed someone or is embezzling or whatever?

53:44Charlie Eccleshare:He married Gail Platt and then eventually drove them both into a lake. Okay. But yeah, I think he might have killed several other people along the way with some gloves and a glare in his eye. This isn't the direction it's supposed to go, but yeah, imagine like a parallel Keezy career, Charlie, of soap opera stardom. I mean, very plausible.

54:05Nick Miller:Yeah, well, around this time in Dream Team, there was a character called Prashant Dutani, played by an actor called Ramon Takaram, who I saw recently pop up in the Netflix show Chaos, which was really good. And he was really good. But he was playing that kind of suave out-of-towner who came in and kind of took the club over and you weren't sure, you know, what's this guy's motivations? And yeah, I don't think Keezy would have been a million miles away from being able to play that role. There's a funny thing as well here that he talks, You know how Gray often says things like, well, you know, you're the journalist sort of thing.

54:36Nick Miller:And he obviously, Keys obviously pushes that really hard. His line about, well, it's my job to know things. Like he, I'm sure, was pushing that line very hard at Sky at the time. He wasn't a presenter. He was a journalist and he was a, you know, a getter of stories and that sort of thing.

54:51Charlie Eccleshare:And an extra layer of self-referencing as well, Nick, which I think he probably pushed for as well. Could you just talk about me a little bit more? Yeah. The start clip was about a minute long, and I think for about 50 seconds it was, as you say, surprisingly good acting, quite a sort of fitting character, the character of Richard Keyes kind of thing, trying to be suave and trying his luck with the boat and the champagne. And then the bit at the end where he says, well, I'm just going to stand on your son, and you'll have to come with me, that just took me out of it completely. That's the actions of a petulant child, rather than the sophisticate that I'm sure he wants to think of himself as.

55:30Richard Key's eclipse.

55:32Charlie Eccleshare:On that mental image, thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshire. Thank you. Thanks to you, Nick Miller. Thank you. And thanks to everyone for listening. Birmingham, we'll see you tonight. Dublin, we'll see you tomorrow.

55:49Nick Miller:Good energy in. Good energy out.

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