The Carabao Supremacy, yodelling commentators & the absolute Joe Hart

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1:12I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like. Is Gascoigne going to have a crack? He is, you know. Oh, I say! Brilliant! The cheese! He's around the goalkeeper! They've done it! Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip. Oh, I say! It's amazing! He does it same and same and same again. Crank up the music! Charge a glass! This nation is going to dance all night!

1:56Charlie Eccleshare:The podcast faces accusations of insider trading, the Carabao supremacy, when will Mikel Arteta stop being Pep Guardiola's apprentice, yodeling commentators at Craven Cottage, Adam Somerton doing Glenn Hoddle things, a borderline rolling back the years case study, the rise and rise of Joe Absolute Heart, FIFA announced the most Super Sunday song ever heard, and Richard Keyes' voice in slapstick megalomaniac cartoon villains. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts, podcasts this is football cliches hello everyone and welcome to football cliches i'm adam hurry this is the adjudication panel and joining me on that adjudication panel first of all is charlie eccleshare how are you doing i'm good thanks alongside you is david walker how are things things are good well are they because um a reddit post on uh on football cliches popped up with a title ethical issue with the podcast rang instant alarm bells I was very worried about what the content would be it was from vacation Steve and he says I just listened to the podcast a few days ago the guys were speculating about clamor for Max Dowman David Walker then said something like I'm sure someone will ask Tuchel about him this week sure enough someone did it was David Walker himself speculating about clamor and then deliberately provoking and raising the clamor that's not one of those circular reference warnings you sometimes get in Microsoft Excel Oh, interesting analogy there.

3:20Charlie Eccleshare:Worse still, is this insider trading? Surely there should be an investigation. Adam should check the clamour betting markets for unusual patterns of behaviour. How do you respond, David Walker? I'm pretty happy with my ethics around the situation, to be honest. I think it's useful that I can serve the England pod and cliches simultaneously. It's funny because I did have the same thought. I was going to message you guys being like, this does feel like insider trading or something when we're talking about like, will there be a clamour? And then you're leading the clamour. Yeah. We already set the agenda.

3:50Charlie Eccleshare:We don't need to do it manually. We do it automatically. I was a bit surprised that no one had asked before me. So I think I was the fourth person to ask a question and they'd all got two each. So I thought it was there for the taking. So I went with it. You called him young Max Dowman. Is that what you do when you turn 14? Well, I sort of... We Max Dowman. In the moment, it just came out. It wasn't pre-planned. I just felt myself going there and I thought okay yeah yeah why not yeah fair enough it was it was the highlight of my extended weekend just ahead of um Charlie coming undone in an exchange with Jamie Carragher on Twitter purely on the basis of Carragher not really being able to make any sense whatsoever I was gonna say undone well it's like it's nothing to do with you he's just like yeah I think he just had you in knots because he didn't actually make a pertinent point about the whole conversation yeah I think he I don't really know what happened yeah it was I was I don't know if he was suddenly like ah i thought i was making a different point to what i was the worst type of argument when you don't actually know if you're on the right track or not yeah yeah good fun yeah fun to watch and for most other people as well other fun was had this weekend with people playing the happy hunting grounds um daily game and the unlimited version for dreamland subscribers um i got a message dave complaining that their guess of joseph desiré job scoring for middlesbrough away at everton in 0304 wasn't picked up by the app and i had to show him frame by frame footage of the goal to prove it was actually a Joseph Yobo-owned goal, as recorded by the Premier League themselves.

5:17Charlie Eccleshare:Oh, OK. I mean, I guess there will be a few like that that have fallen through the cracks, but yeah. The dubious goals panel. Perhaps we should run the whole database by them. Bring it back. Yeah, we might have to do it on a case-by-case basis from now on. But yeah, huge honours went to Adams Foxcroft, whose friend Ewan Cotter in the pub achieved a level nine. Kevin Lisby for Charlton away at Villa, 03-04. Ooh, nice. It's a great work. Nice. Can you imagine? scenes would that have been limbs the equivalent thereof i reckon yeah yeah pints right the adjudication panel begins with this let's of course start with the carabao cup final mark lewis writes in first charlie and says a friend texted me to ask if i'd be watching the cup final it took me a moment to compute that that meant the carabao for me the cup final is completely synonymous with the fa cup i'm struggling to think of another example where it lands naturally i'm keen to hear the panel's thoughts i think i'm all right with it maybe it's the fading of the fa Cup's luster.

6:11Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know, but they're so separated from each other. They don't mind the Cup final. I think I would be alright. Yeah, I'm trying to think what would... I think I would just say the final. Are you going to be watching the final? Because you don't need to say the Carabao Cup final, but I do think the Cup final does evoke a certain you know, it's all the pomp and ceremony of the FA Cup final. I seem to remember in the Daily Mail style guide, they had something like, it may have changed, but the Cup final did just mean the FA Cup. or if you capitalised it, that meant the FA Cup and anything else, the Cup final was just a lowercase C but that was the kind of, because the FA Cup final is so sacred.

6:48Charlie Eccleshare:Oh yeah, if you cap it up, Dave, then you're in real kind of legal trouble of anything. So yeah, can't give the Carabao that status, can we? I agree with Mark. I think the Cup final is the FA Cup Cup final day. It's, I wouldn't, yeah, would I say you're going to watch the Carabao Cup final? Probably, maybe the Carabao. You're going to watch the Carabao on Sunday? I don't know. You wouldn't say about the World Cup, would you, or the Champions League? The cup final. No, you definitely wouldn't. The cup final for the Champions League final. The big cup final. God, no. Your mum would, but yeah. Right.

7:20Charlie Eccleshare:Next up, the recent chat we had with Jimmy McIntosh about Weatherspoon's reluctance to show football. They went all out for the Carabao, Dave. They advertised the Carabao Cup final being screened in all Weatherspoons across the country. It just doesn't feel like something they normally do. Well, again, I think it's a terrestrial thing, isn't it? It was on ITV as well as Sky. So it gives them the opportunity to whack it up on the old screens. But still a strange going down the spoons to watch the Carabao. It's a great place to watch football. It has all the other ingredients you want. But yeah, I clicked onto the link, the way the spoons sent out for their press release, Charlie, and made a big thing about how the game can be watched with their great selection of drinks, including beers, wine cocktails and more, which is what you would expect really.

8:07Charlie Eccleshare:But there was a caveat at the bottom. Please note that the following pubs do not have TV screens and there's about a dozen of them. So don't go to those ones, definitely. Oh, wow. I mean, I guess you'd be aware that though, if you go to those pubs regularly, you'd sort of think, they don't have screens, how are they going to do that? But also, they're not kitted out for football. They'll have small screens in the corners. There's no Weatherspoons that's got like the rolling BBC News Channel on a projector during the week, is it? Yeah, some very annoyed punters in those pubs, no doubt. Right, before Cup Final day, the Soccer Saturday team were talking to Paul Merson about his memories of the League Cup Final, and he pulled out a classic mercism, but it didn't quite land for some reason.

8:47Yeah, it was amazing. You know, you're just dreaming it. I was born not far away from when we stayed in. So, yeah, it was a dream, you know. Come what, Sunday always brings good memories for me, the Cup Final.

8:59Charlie Eccleshare:Come what, which Sunday? Every Sunday? Well, I guess the Carabao Cup, the League Cup final, come League Cup final Sunday, it brings back those great memories. But it does make you think, is he doing this deliberately? Is he just trying to get in as many come what's as possible? It's a recurring question with Mertz, isn't it? Every time he says something, we're never quite sure to what level of in on it he's in. Now he's just saying come what any Sunday. Just, you know, a vague array of Sundays. It really is unravelling. Carabao themselves, the brand, in the week leading up to the final, Charlie, announced that they'd extended their sponsorship deal of the competition for another two years.

9:36Charlie Eccleshare:That will make them the Cup's longest title sponsor. It will take them up to 12 years of sponsorship. So that will eclipse the Carling spell of 2003 to 2012, which is a sizable moment, I think. Yeah. And I mean, someone said to me on Sunday, I think they referenced the Carling Cup. They were like, oh, you're going to watch the Carling Cup final later. so Carabao still have work to do with some casual fans that Carling still has a hold on it Is this a bit like when you look at someone's Wikipedia page and you're surprised that they played more games for one club than the club you naturally associate with?

10:11Charlie Eccleshare:Pretty much, yeah I mean Dave, have they sort of gained primacy here do you think for you? Carabao? Is it the Carabao? I mean no one obviously should be calling it the Carling Cup but it had such a ring to it it was a good brand it was a good football-y brand and it followed on it had been the FA Carling Premiership so there was some heritage there as well. But no, I think it's... I now see it as the Carabao. I don't ever look at a League Cup game and Worthington's doesn't instantly come to mind or Capital One. No, it's the Carabao. Carabao are releasing a lager now, though, Charlie. So maybe they're sort of pushing for sort of more mainstream feel because at first the Carabao felt so ridiculous when it was first announced.

10:50Charlie Eccleshare:I can't call it this. A pint of Carabao. Yeah, people started calling it the Caribou which was annoying. yeah um so fair play to them for sticking it out other things that seem to be hanging around charlie um itv before the game said the former apprentice goes head to head with the master in this year's carabao cup final i mean it doesn't feel like michel arteta is in pep guardiola's shadow particularly but i feel like this master apprentice chat has so many more years to run like there's no other angle is there why it's really annoying but i do think it's not the fact that it's coming from itv it's almost like because they'll have had so few live matches or sort of you know in this period so it's like dog years time moves in a slightly different way for them that's a great like sky would not be doing that i don't think because they'll have had so many narratives since but if you're talking to like a because it's a massive like mainstream audience so you're kind of getting them in it's like the weather spoon you know weather spoons are showing the game you know they'll have shown so few finals so it's like i can't argue that that's brilliant yeah that's It's the number one narrative.

11:49Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I had to just pick up where they left off last time. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I quite like it. Now, I really enjoyed this, Dave. It came from Daniel Begg. Here is Five Live's Steve Crossman picking the brains of former Arsenal assistant coach Steve Round, who you'd think would be fully aware of his specialist subject here, but no. Steve, what does Mikel Arteta want in a number two? First and foremost, it'll be defensive solidity, no question. You have to be able to get clean sheets in this league to be able to go on and win it. and then it depends which side he's going to build up on. Sometimes if they turn to a back three and build up with a back three or want the right back to go inside and play in midfield, which Jurian Timber can do.

12:30If he builds up on the left side, he might be the left back who comes inside into midfield, so the right back drops into being more of a centre-back, which he can do with a Ben White or Inch Capet. It all depends on his game plan and how he sees fit in terms of his offensive work, but first and foremost, it'll be defensive responsibilities.

12:47Charlie Eccleshare:I actually meant a number two as in an assistant manager. Yeah, I'm talking about a type of right back. He doesn't have an assistant manager. He has lots of assistant coaches. Oh, no. Why do you think you're here, Steve? Has anyone ever described a right back as a number two? No, madness. Jesus, he went up for ages, Charlie. Fair play to Steve Crossman for just acknowledging that he had not. Because that often happens, you'll ask someone a question, in an interview or just in general life and they'll answer a different one. And then you have that decision to make of, do you front up or do you go like, yeah.

13:22Oh, and also like, and then there's often a moment where they realise, ah, right, that's what you were asking me about the first time, wasn't it?

13:29Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, really awkward. But yeah, well played to both of them for dealing with it well. Will Dakin writes in next, Dave, and says about 20 minutes into the cup final, they put up Erling Haaland's touch map graphic, highlighting that he'd only had four touches all in his own half. How long are we going to do this for? literally everyone now knows that he doesn't get involved in the play and is still a huge threat it tells us absolutely nothing he surely must have the highest games to touch map shown ratio in history of football by a country mire probably at probably does to be fair absolutely yeah it is such a thing you associate with him with it's and just yeah just in general as well like we've seen it for like it's a it's a good way of i don't know if harry kane's not had many touches you know instantly it's sort of, oh, what's going on with them?

14:12All commentators can do with that is something like, they sort of have to acknowledge it, only so the other commentators can say something, well, of course, but that's, you know, he doesn't need many, does he? You know, that's his game. He just needs one. It's like, yeah, I think we all know this.

14:25Charlie Eccleshare:Over to some other individuals in the cup final. This came from Andrew Hanna, who was looking at the Sky Sports player ratings. Martin Zubimendi got six, Charlie, and the summary of that was, never got to grips with a game against a relentless Manchester City midfield led by the tiresome Bernardo Silva. Maybe it's the dark arts that they don't like. Yeah, that may be deliberate. He just finds Bernardo Silva quite annoying. Oh, you are tiresome Bernardo Silva. He probably is quite tiresome to play against. Yeah, I'd imagine he would be. Just keep popping up. He's always in your ear. Just chill out.

14:58Charlie Eccleshare:Bernardo. He's a strange character, Bernardo Silva, Charlie, because, like, I mean, he's a really good footballer, technically really good, very hard to pigeonhole as a player. I wouldn't be able to prescribe him a role particularly. But yet, despite all of that, I think my abiding memory of Bernardo Tilwell when he finally leaves English football, with him just sort of looking towards a referee or an opponent with that sort of slightly... I don't know how to describe that look on his face. It's just kind of... Perennially quite annoyed and sort of slightly protest-y. But a little bit sad at the same time.

15:32Charlie Eccleshare:It's like someone's just stolen his wallet and he's just like, what are you doing? Why have you done that? It's not argumentative. He doesn't have an argumentative face. He just has kind of, why are you doing this to me face? It's not the same as Bruno Fernandes. He's not a moaner in that sense, is he? But I know what you mean. There was a great moment in, well, there was a moment in the game yesterday when he beat three players. It went on a proper little mazy dribble. And it just wanted him to score. It just wanted him to shoot. And he just ended up just passing it back to Rodri, I think, on the edge of the box.

16:02But it was a moment of, you really don't see that that often. do you? Which is interesting because I wonder with it, like when they signed him from Monaco he was like a really exciting attacking player and he sort of evolved into a kind of, a much more sort of deep lying but also just like more sort of scrappy and like, you know, that's his sort of game now. Maybe that's just getting older.

16:23Charlie Eccleshare:He's a good kid as well Bernard. He really is the emblem of a bit harassed. He always looks quite dishevelled. Yeah, he does. He's got no sort of glamour about him in the way that a lot of players do. Yeah, his facial hair isn't like groomed, is it? Yeah. It's just like he needs a shave. It will turn out that there'll be a story that he doesn't have a smartphone and he only has like a Nokia. He's really down to earth and doesn't give a shit about all that sort of stuff. Following on from last week's episode of the Listeners MHD we had one about standing crosses up to the back post. There were quite a few in this game.

16:58The second goal was a stood up cross I think to the back post. The first one might have been as well Oh, Kepa tried to intercept it and then dropped it. And there was another one in the first half. Semenya stood one up lovely to Haaland. Nice to see City playing into our narrative.

17:14Charlie Eccleshare:Well, City are byline FC, aren't they, Charlie? They love a pullback or a stand-up. So they're always going to be able to produce them. They do, but they were known much more for the pullback. Like that classic, that first great pep team. They weren't stand-up. They were just sort of low ones across the box for a Sterling tap-in. Tactics, excellent stuff. Next up, former Premier League referee Graham Scott wrote in, Dave, and said, Pep has just been asked how it feels to be the champions of the Carabao Cup. Surely you can only be champions of a league, not of a cup. I mean, this argument comes up every single Carabao Cup weekend, every single year.

17:45Charlie Eccleshare:I think we must have done it on this podcast every year. But I was happy to entertain it from a former PGMOLA, to be honest. Great to know they care about this stuff. Fair play. Graham Scott. Finally, Eddie Baker wrote in, Charlie, and he was rather annoyed by Patrick Davison's new habit of creeping into shot during his post-match interviews. He's definitely doing it. Like he did it the other night and now he's doing it again at the weekend. At it again. Yeah. I'll let's call it doing a Gabriel Clark because Gabriel Clark loved just getting the side of his face in the shot at least. Making yourself the story.

18:16Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Seems unnecessary, but it might just be a quirk of the camera angle, Dave. Should we give him the benefit of the doubt? Yeah, it tends to be the on-pitch ones. They're just a bit looser, aren't they? At the end. Maybe. As opposed to when you're in front of the board. Were they in front of a board yesterday? I don't think they were, were they? No, they weren't. Just on the pitch, weren't they? Just around, yeah. But he seems like a good guy, so I will let him off. Let's move on. We've talked recently about the current spate of commentary vibrato. Your Mike Minnays, your Chris Wises. And this came from Tragic Saddening on Reddit and Darren Altman.

18:47Charlie Eccleshare:Here is a yodelling Mark Scott. Our match of the day duty for Fulham versus Burnley. Harry Wilson now for Fulham. Alarm bells ringing for Burnley here. Wilson!

18:59another wonderful piece of work from the welshman

19:13i've never heard anything like that dave it's extraordinary is that a um a cast away homage yeah yeah how do you even get your voice to do that charlie you've even got it or you haven't I guess practice as well, though. Like, you need that innate talent, and then you've got to work at it.

19:32Charlie Eccleshare:This current crop of commentators with their vocal gymnastics is sensational. You could see, like, the commentators forming a charity choir or something, for, like, sport relief or something. Yeah, it would be quite... Not the sight. What's the hearing version of sight? Anyway, next up, this came from Rich Stevens, who pointed me towards the Villa Crowdnoids for their opening goal against Lille in the Europa League on Thursday night. so for context Emi Martinez with a quick and incredible side volley pass upfield to Jadon Sancho who races into the box from the right and lays it on a plate for John McGinn to slot home first time so the whole spectacle sort of increases in encouraging promisingness all the way through and it's reflected perfectly in the gradient of the crowd noise

20:35Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, that is one of the cleanest sort of raises of the volume. I mean, there was a hint of a go on which broke it slightly. But other than that, the football itself reflected how the crowd zone should go. It was all really seamless. It went from Emi Martinez to the back of the net fairly smoothly. And that kind of reflects itself in the crowd noise. I like that. you're right yeah it is a gradient it is just a sliding gentle all the way up which was very pleasing yeah should happen more often really next up from Richard Harding Barcelona versus Newcastle on Wednesday night Charlie Glenn Hoddle doing Glenn Hoddle things and then Adam Somerton doing Glenn Hoddle things they go through the middle this time it's Lewandowski and it's straight at the goalkeeper yeah he come off lovely didn't he got some spice he's got Didn't fancy him from that distance there.

21:26Jamal. Jordan Linton's got to be careful. Held off Hall as well. Into the feet of Lewandowski. They've moved it lovely. Rafinha and Lewandowski. And it's over. You're not allowed to say that, Adam Somerton. It's rubbed off. That's so good as well, because I do wonder, like, we talk about that a lot. And you think, do we slightly exaggerate it? The fact that Hoddle's done it, and then it's so infectious that Adam Somerton's done it. That is so good. I think you would, wouldn't you? Two minutes later. You would. Yeah, it's totally natural. Yeah, you spend time with people who have a particular way of talking or whatever, you often sort of start slipping into it.

22:03Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Just goes to show it. That's a burgeoning commentary partnership. It's moved it. Lovely. It's great. Do you think Hoddle looked across it and went, hang on. Yeah. That's my life. I reckon he would have known. I reckon he would have spotted it. He must know it's his thing. Just stole a pat on the back, maybe. Lovely. Yeah. Elsewhere in the Champions League, Liverpool dealt with Galatasaray. at Anfield in the second leg. Gabriel Blythe Howes writes in and said, Salah has just been subjected to a rolling back the years from Fletch after his goal. I'm not having it. Ten months ago, he got the PL golden boot.

22:35Charlie Eccleshare:At worst, he's rolling back one year. But Charlie, you tweeted, given the context, how trademark a goal it was, has there ever been pound for pound a more rolling back the years goal than Salah's last night? Do you stand by it? Are you happy with the timeframe here? Yeah, I had this discussion with a few people who made that same point but I think that's taking it too literally I think the way the news cycle moves nowadays rolling back the years is a sort of state it's not a specific time period it's the fact that Salah it's been such a story of this season that he has lost it that he's fallen off the age cliff that he's not what he was and then to score like his goal is just and sure enough Fletch did straight away reach for the uh rolling back the years so yeah I don't think it has to be nowadays um quite so literal how do you feel about this dave i mean you know as established you know he was the golden boot winner not so long ago he hasn't left liverpool and come back um you know apart from a drop in form nothing's really happened he's got a bit older let's let's face it but um it's borderline i think i would have maybe agreed with gabriel initially but charlie's argument does convince me and i think fair play i actually hadn't seen this goal until just before we started to record this.