The VAR-monitor jog & fans coming in peace: The listeners' loves & hates

22:40Charlie Eccleshare:It's like, it would look a bit weird if I ran like a madman right now, but also it'd look like I'm milking the moment if I just walked over there. So it's like this in-between, not quite running, just sort of bouncing along. It's quite strange. This is it, Dave. This is the last remaining VAR talking point available to humanity. No one has confronted this before. i i love the idea of the three options of speed that a referee could choose and then they're going for the middle one had this ever come to your mind no but no but i now now it's been pointed out to me i think he's absolutely right a referee isn't going to sprint over like they just see like a set two yeah yeah it's just yeah exactly yeah but also a really slow drawn out walk that gives you the opportunity for players to get into your ear a bit more you sort of need to just purposefully maybe maybe you could maybe you know a purposeful stride rather than a slow walk if you didn't want to jog because like the halfway house jog is a bit like he says a bit zebra crossing it's a bit yeah yeah or to me it's like when you see if you were like late for something at school and then you come into sort of eye contact with the teacher or whoever it is it's like if you sprint it's like but you're taking the piss a bit you can't just walk because that's also taking the piss but that is but that halfway you've sort of got to show some urgency like yeah fair cop like you've seen me i'm late i'm sorry and that's a bit what this is like like you say you can't it would be weird to sprint but it but also like with all the emphasis on like we've been waiting eight minutes for a decision you don't have to add it on yeah exactly you've got to pay some to walk over there exactly you've got to pay some lip service to the idea that people are getting impatient they don't want to wait around that you need to show some urgency charlie do you think this is something that pgomol would sort of issue a directive about to their members before the start of the season?

24:24Charlie Eccleshare:Just keep the pace up a little bit. Keep it urgent, but not too panicky. Yeah, that's... I mean, have we had any audio where they're sort of in contact? Where is that, you know, a bit quicker? Please move at 10 % more, please, Chris. After a review.

24:43After a long, tiring review. Dave, I put it to you. after a torturous review.

24:53Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, I put it to you that the speed someone goes over a zebra crossing to give the impression that they are speeding up for cars that waiting is the most sighted human gait in modern times. People love pointing out the speed of that. It depends on your timing. We've got a zebra crossing right at the end of my road, so I'm a daily zebra crossingman. It's like if the cars are approaching and you're there before them, it's fine. you walk out take your time give them a little nod or a wave to say thanks for stopping but if someone else is nearly across and you're nearly there and you want to get there to make sure those two cars that are waiting don't take the opportunity to nip in in front of you that's when you've got to do the little jog yeah yeah yeah i didn't think i didn't think of the pre-crossing situation uh charlie you won't sympathize with this as a sub three hour marathon man when i'm When I'm faced with this particular jog that I have to do to cross a road, if I'm, you know, if, as I often am, wearing normal clothes, it's so much more of an effort to run that slowly.

25:54Charlie Eccleshare:Like, it's the thumping of your shoes on the ground. It's the force through the joints. It's a really unpleasant speed to run at. It really is. It's like when people say, like, you can run for a bus. But I actually think running for a bus is really tiring. Like, you're doing it off no warm-up. You're in normal clothes. It's a similar thing where it's like, I'm going at a pace. I really don't want to be going. It's not real running. I find that uncomfortable. Yeah, it's not. It's just, it's not very nice. And you don't want to, you sort of try and suppress how knackered you are when you're on the bus.

26:23You don't want to be a complete mess.

26:26Charlie Eccleshare:You don't want to performatively, oh, I just got this bus, do you? Skip this. Who remembers football? It's fun, isn't it? Right. Really enjoyed that. Thank you, Luke. Our third fascination of this month. Well, I want to listen to this clip first. it is of course three lions

27:14Charlie Eccleshare:Now, Dave, as soon as basically May hits every other year, I assume you have this on repeat, just interchanging with Natasha Bedingfield. So would you say, could you express as a percentage how much of this song you are familiar with? Like, as it plays, your brain, in real time, knows exactly what's happening at all times. Yeah, I think I could do it word for word, I guess, I reckon. Not just word for word, but just the flow of it all. music musically as well yeah everything about it musicalistically give me a percentage come on yeah i'll back myself to do 90 90 in the 90s yeah i think so yeah okay well this came from henry tydman who has noticed this about three lions my fascination is um is in three lions at the end of the song when the big climactic chorus is is happening there's this strange little counter melody thing and it's a voice just going oh oh oh oh oh oh and I've always been quite confused by it I don't understand what purpose it serves I'm not sure it improves the song in any way but I like to sing along with that part of the song especially when there's a big group of people England have just won a big match and everyone's singing it's coming home or three lines on the shirt and i like to um sing oh oh oh oh oh oh i guess just because i like to um feel that i understand the song on a slightly different more profound level than others i love this charlie this is this is like fletch's goal noise all over again but with such a contrarian thing to do like if someone if people were in a pub singing along and you're doing the counter melody of the final outro people be like what are you doing I really like that though.

29:01I can relate. I'm trying to think of a specific example, but I do know what Henry means. Like I've got some songs, I'm sure I do that, where there is like a little bit you've picked up on. And because you know it, you're like, I'm going to go with that. A good song for that. And it's not quite as hidden as this, but She's Electric. There's like the Noel Gallagher's part when Liam's doing the chorus. If that's on in a scenario where, I don't know, karaoke or, you know, a night out or something, I will often sing the Noel Gallagher bit.

29:30Charlie Eccleshare:That is such a good shout. Like my solo car karaoke has got to the point now where if it's a song I really, really know, I'll go for the harmony line instead. And you feel like you feel so cool when you nail the harmony. You might even make up your own harmony as well. Even if there isn't one in the song, you make up your own one. You feel like a god. You feel like you feel like a real recording artist. Yeah. If you hold the note that in reality, then they hold and then something else comes in underneath it. But you're just holding that note. That is a nice feeling. Yeah, but yeah, the Noel Gallagher sort of part of the vocals of any Oasis song is actually a very, very good shout.

30:03Charlie Eccleshare:So let's listen to this three lines clip again. And now you've heard it, you won't be able to unhear it of the last 30 seconds of this song.

30:28Three Lions on the show is young Your romance completely A blackness here is a part

30:38Charlie Eccleshare:What does it add, Dave? I guess it's just... Just another layer to the outro, I guess. Yeah, you know, I guess it's... It is one of the things that Three Lions managed to crack is that it's sort of novelty, but it's not. It is still a song put together by a credible band at the time that's really one of the few songs that just about managed to nail that sweet spot of it still feeling like a normal song, but also being a football song. Yeah, absolutely. I'm delighted that someone has unveiled another layer of Three Lions. That's great. Much like we did a couple of years ago. Charlie, on another note, a very obvious note, really, Three Lions is now equidistant between the 1966 World Cup and now.

31:21Charlie Eccleshare:How old does it make you feel? Has it had any impact on you whatsoever? It's a moment. Yeah, it certainly is. It would be good to see the guy from the Lightning Sea, Ian Brody? Ian Brody. Ian Brody, with Eileen Skinner, do like one of those sort of Song Exploder or like John Kennedy's podcast, getting Jimmy Hill on his own fader. They'd have to reveal where they got it from. I'm so glad you spared me having to do my Hirakesh Hirway impression because I was never going to nail it. Yeah, lovely fascinations for our listeners this month. We'll be back incredibly shortly with our listeners' irritations.

32:12Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. We've heard our listeners' fascinations for May. Now it's time for your irritations, the first of which comes from Alex Liddle. Hi, guys. My hatred of football is the seemingly increasingly trend of football fans seeing the need to go on opposition fan pages on social media after the game to congratulate them. I find the whole thing very, very bizarre. And I don't quite understand it. The sort of need for these fans to go actively find these Facebook pages, some of these rogue forums and post something like, Hi guys, Birmingham fan here in peace. Just wanted to congratulate you guys.

32:53Your fans are amazing. You sung the whole game and I wish you well for the rest of the season. I just don't understand it. It seems to be happening more and more. By all means, go congratulate a fan if you bump into them on the street after the game. But the need to go find these pages and post something like that is incredibly attention-seeking to me and a little bit pathetic.

33:15Charlie Eccleshare:I was on board with it for so long and then I just thought right at the end, Dave, it just got a little bit harsh. I mean, where do we stand on this? Do football rivalries, should the fences stay there and just don't cross them with your classy touches? I guess it's some sort of reaction to the toxic element of some of the online discourse. But he mentions talking to rival fans in real life there. Imagine if you actually did that in real life and you went, hi guys, what for a fan here in peace? Yeah, that's what I'd say. I thought you played well today. A completely unrelated... oh uh cheers baby the idea of you coming in peace as well so we've got no beef with you whatsoever that's just sensational definitely start doing that completely randomly and do it like for like a unibond league team as well it's like ben united fan here in peace i thought you uh i thought you did really well at step seven charlie there has been a real rash of this behavior recently i don't know if there's been an explosion in this if as dave says it's kind of sort of reaction to the toxicity of social media.

34:17Charlie Eccleshare:But our Reddit has been filled with sort of accounts of this situation happening. Here's a few for you. There's one on the BBC Live text from a guy from Preston congratulating Notts County on their playoff final win. He says, well done, Notts County, from a fellow founder member.

34:35Charlie Eccleshare:1888, classy touch. I love that. That's great. So does that lend itself a little bit more kind of spiritual sort of credibility, the fact that they were both founder members of the football league maybe i mean i don't mind these things i have to say like i think it is definitely a reaction to the toxicity and the fact that it's become so tribal and i think people that's people's motivation in thinking like you know i want to be a sort of antidote to all that negativity so yeah i'm kind of fine with people doing that dave you know i would have speculated that it feels like distinctly british thing like because we are slightly obsessed with classy touches whereas other countries might be a little bit their tribalism is a little bit more dna level and like it's you know one of their appeals of of their styles of football but this is from the as roma reddit page i'm a hardcore juve fan and i'm gutted for us missing ucl football but i'm truly happy for you guys making it is champions league qualification something to come in peace about that feels quite un-italian to be honest i would say that perhaps i think maybe even more tribal on the continent than over here yeah i think it does depend on depends a lot on the context like you say like if for example if an arsenal fan wanted to give words of congratulations or spurs fan wanted to congratulate an arsenal fan or whatever either way you could kind of get it just a little disclaimer just to just to make it clear that i'm not taking the piss here or something yeah sarcasm always a danger right yeah and the idea of people saying don't want your thanks don't care if you're in here here in peace or not fuck off but when it's yeah but when it's kind of random club to random club like you say just don't yeah just get on with it charlie this example might be the most even-handed everyone happy with the situation coming in peace it's under the youtube highlights of man city one aston villa two on the final day someone commented incredible respect for the aston villa players who joined in bernardo silva's guard of honor and at villa fan wrote underneath we did it for stones to respect all round classy game today and then someone wrote underneath as a city fan respect to you lad see you guys in the champions League next year wave class players fans well done cheers mate I mean 50 50 stuff it's a lot of love that is a lot of love but does make you think maybe this should be de rigueur I don't know but you couldn't just do it for like a random game in the middle of the league season could you Dave well no I don't think so I don't know I think there are natural moments of respect are are fine and should be welcomed I guess but it's yeah this particular club ex fan in peace is a particular thing and this has if you if you go on the reddit or on our discord you will regularly see people sarcastically using it for all sorts of scenarios why it might irritate people as well as it does speak to this need people have to kind of get these things off their chest i guess i mean like you know like i i watched bournemouth uh against city and i was kind of blown away by them but my impulse wasn't and maybe that's just me maybe i should be more kind of philanthropic and generous My impulse wasn't to kind of message, seek out Bournemouth fans and tell them how impressed I was.

37:31That would be patronising, I think, actually, to be honest. Maybe, but I guess some people, it is. You know, they want to express their kind of admiration for a team. And they think that going direct to the fans is a nice way to do it. And I suppose it is. I think this is something that you might see going beyond football. Really? Like could seep into other areas of slightly tribalistic. tribalistic or like even even down to like frivolous things like i don't know i bet there's like a reddit page for university challenge or something and you might get an only connect fan here in peace or something like that sort of nerdy stuff yeah where there are sort of certain

38:08Charlie Eccleshare:subtastes that are very clearly defined yeah could be okay our second irritation from our listeners this month comes from dylan scarborough my football irritation is when people use this phrase wrong in football and this happened between me and four of my mates on the way back from West Ham away and we were just watching Declan Rice find out that West Ham had got relegated and he looked gutted and my mate just goes ah but he jumped ship didn't he jumped ship at West Ham and I was like well no he didn't jump ship did he because he left when they won the conference league if anything he left when they were on the up and he was like no no jumping ship is when you just you know transfer to another club and you just go and I was like well no jumping ship is obviously when you're on the way down and he went no but West Ham have been on the way down since they left Upton Park and I was like maybe maybe but what is West Ham in the past 10 years they were on the way down but then they won the conference league that's not jumping ship anyway this tennis for a ramp for the next like at least the hour and a half on the way back in the car so nah that's not jumping ship jumping ship is when Jarrod Bowen surely leaves now when they've been relegated but then there's all the is the ship already sunk anyway cheers fair play to them Charlie for getting 90 minutes out of this I think we struggled to talk about it for 10 on an adjudication panel but it's an interesting one nonetheless.

39:17Charlie Eccleshare:How do you feel? Jumping ship probably isn't an exclusively football phrase, but where do you think the threshold lies? Do you think Declan Rice jumped ship? I do really like this. I mean, because also there's abandoning ship, there's rats deserting a sinking ship. There are rats leaving the sinking ship, yeah. I mean, yeah, I think I'm more with Dylan on this one. Like, I do think jumping ship does imply, certainly, that you are a bit deserting and, you know, you're kind of abandoning a ship that's sort of sinking and needs helming. but you've helmed it to very safe waters. I mean, Deckton Rice, they just won the conference league, hadn't they?

39:50They'd had this amazing moment. He left them on a high. You know, that ship wasn't about to sink. You know, it's kind of like, we're safe, lads. Enjoy your time on the ship. I'm off. You'll be absolutely fine. And, you know, they kind of should have been. You've got to transfer to a bigger and better ship. He deserved it. You're not every time you leave a kind of smaller club to go to a bigger club. That's not a jumping ship. Surely, not every time that's a jumping ship.

40:14Charlie Eccleshare:I was inclined to think, Dave, that basically any time you go on to bigger and better things, no matter what your state the club you're leaving behind is jumping ship. But I suppose there is an element of abandonment about it. So you do have to factor that in. It depends. I think it depends entirely on the circumstances. And I think sometimes from smaller club to bigger club could be jumping ship. But I think it's more when the clubs are sort of more level that it's more of a jumping ship thing. Do you think, Charlie, like Samir Nasri joining Man City or like Van Persie joining Man United? Is that a jumping ship scenario?

40:49Felt a bit ship jumping. That's interesting. Yeah, I think that is more. That does feel more of a jumping ship. That's kind of jumping to a rifle ship.

40:57Charlie Eccleshare:So it's not necessarily the abandonment, not necessarily the state of the club they left behind, but the opportunism of doing it. So they've decided they're going to jump ship and go on to bigger and better things. How about another example for you? What about, say, Enzo Fernandes leaving Chelsea, who have had a dreadful season and he's itching to move? Is that jumping ship? Maybe. Yeah, I do think a key thing here is a slight dereliction of duty element. And that does maybe feel a bit like that. Like, well, you've been part of creating this mess. Now you should be helping to fix it. And that wasn't the case with Rice.

41:30I think it happens with managers as well, because they can sometimes get their heads turned. I remember when Marco Silva tried to jump ship and was prevented from doing so initially by Watford when he wanted to join Everton. Eventually, he ended up being given safe passage. But yeah, a manager who just didn't like Steve Bruce or, you know, when they have like a weirdly short spell at a club and they just go, oh, actually, sorry, I'm going to go to another job. Well, interesting you say short spell because I've just looked up like some sort of definition of it. and it implies, it says, to leave a person's situational place usually hurriedly and permanently.

42:08So this suggests, as you've just mentioned, that there's an element of sort of quickness about it and it all happens kind of out of nowhere, which might give it a kind of jump ship feel, which again, Rice was so heavily trailed. Everyone knew it was coming for ages.

42:22Charlie Eccleshare:I've enjoyed this. This is good. Nice to have an adjudication panel-y entry into the listeners' Mesotharal and Dix. Right, our third and final irritation from our listeners this month. comes from Gareth Lewis. My irritation of football is when you've got injured footballers at the game and they're wearing their civilian clothes. A lot of the time they're sat just behind the bench and the camera will pan to them and they're wearing some ludicrous, trendy outfit. And it's like, you're representing the club. You should be wearing a club tracksuit. Failing that, you should be wearing a smart outfit like, you know, a blazer, club blazer.

42:59Like, you're still at work. you should be playing, it just happens to be that you are injured. And this goes to a whole new level when sometimes you'll see them go on the pitch in their civilian clothes. I think the first time I noticed this, Cesc Fabregas came on in like a leather jacket and some ripped jeans and I was like, what are you playing at, mate? You're representing the club. Anyway, just makes me furious. Was that the Phil Brown incident? He's referring to that, yeah, after the FA Cup time.

43:28Charlie Eccleshare:All roads were leading to that example as well, Charlie. It's so good. I was desperately, while I was listening to that clip, trying to find the quote from Phil Brown about Cesc Fabregas coming on the pitch in his jeans, and I couldn't find it. But he specifically targeted the fact that Cesc Fabregas was wearing jeans. And it's like the disrespect of coming on the pitch in his clothes, which is just amazing. But yeah, it does set the tone. But yeah, you do see this quite a lot, Charlie, when sort of non-participating players are wearing their own clothes behind the bench. And you just think, how engaged are you?

43:58Charlie Eccleshare:because they're more likely to be having a laugh than subs are because they're not into it. And it does annoy me a little bit when players are having a laugh, especially if your team aren't necessarily playing that well. But there are two elements to this that I quite like. One is that it's just quite interesting getting an insight to what they wear and you sort of see their clobber, which I feel you probably see less of now because footballers probably go out less. So I quite like that element. And also I like the element of, and maybe the clothes don't really matter here, but just another sort of subsection of this is fans trying to work out like how that player was moving you know did they look sort of how close did they look to a return and does the fact that they're there what does that mean for their comeback well they wouldn't have been there if they were really hurt would they so they're sort of it elevates them to this different level between like just being really injured and well they can't be that injured if they're there sort of in their civvies enjoying themselves and they smiled a lot.

44:48Charlie Eccleshare:Dave on our kind of moral level where do you stand on the idea that even non-participating players should be there in at least a club tracksuit because they're at work i think the tracksuit makes sense i think we've i think we've moved beyond the club blazer oh for sure haven't we it would look weird i think now there was a shot of um when arsenal were playing burnley and getting ready to do their sort of lap of honor end of season lap of honor thing i think was it ben white and michael marino were um sort of down on the touchline ready to come onto the pitch at the final whistle both i think ben white was wearing a cap and they were both wearing yeah you know smart casual kind of clothes and i just think same as sort of pundits like it just people don't wear suits as much outside of really formal occasions anymore so it would look weird i guess charlie i put it to you as a separate point entirely that the emirates is the most like by a mile as well the most non-participating players pictured up in the box watching the game stadium in the premier league i can't think of any other stadium that rivals it yeah why is that They have a lot of injured players.

45:53Charlie Eccleshare:Is it just a very friendly camera angle that you can pick out the little boxes where they're sat in with their wives? And they're 14 hangers on, on their phone, not watching the game with a blanket. And as you say this, I can see the kind of huge hoodie they're wearing. A quite big cat. Like, it's just, it's all there in my mind's eye. Yeah, it's almost like they're trying to evade the paparazzi by being at a game in the executive box stave. It's quite a funny look, actually. that that game in particular there was a shot of ben white in the crowd talking to who i assume is his wife for quite a long time it lingered on him you could really see he was he was having a proper chat with her and i think it's real like lip reading territory someone probably could have worked out what they were talking about because he didn't he didn't have the hand above the mouth i was gonna say yeah no no covering his mouth doesn't care does he doesn't care he's talking about steve holland and the uh leaving the england camp i think there's a bit of a line so i think director's box somewhere up there sort of fine like wear what you want i think on the bench i think tracksuits if you're on the bench you should wear a tracksuit like even you know sat behind the bench in the kind of extra seats if there's anyone either side of you in club tracksuits you should be wearing a club tracksuit too like you're in that club exactly i agree lovely delivery of that live from gareth lewis yeah tremendous set of fascinations and irritations from our listeners this month we'll be back during the world cup with your world cup Mez at Harland Dix so listen out for the call out for that thanks to you Charlie Eccleshire thank you enjoy the tennis thanks to you David Walker thank you enjoy the hay fever and thanks everyone for listening we'll be back on Tuesday see you then