Tom Cruise's FIFA-speak, Messi's grassing & the Pure World Cup 2026 XI

22:57Nick Miller:i thought it was great from him because i was i was thinking it was quite i thought it was like a bit poor from the bbc that they weren't calling it out for obviously being crap and that they were trying to pretend it was like and that was good wasn't it you know really entertaining it was like obviously this is complete shit and i felt like good on wayne rooney for just like for saying it like i imagine like most people were thinking like it was obviously rubbish

23:19Charlie Eccleshare:The breadth of the reaction stunned me, Jake. Incredible one-two here. A little snapshot of what was going on. Les Dennis tweeted, what the fuck, get on with the game? And he got an affirmative green tick emoji from Henry Winkler, a.k.a. The Fomps. FIFA is bringing people together in unity. It's just over the hallucinogenic shitness of the halftime show. I mean, not usually a Henry Winkler fan, but that's class. Yeah, that's so good. And I think, like you say, Wayne was judging it on his own merits. He's not against pre-and-during entertainment in general. He absolutely adored Jennifer Hudson's rendition of the National Anthem.

24:02But this was a bridge too far. And he even said, I like some of those artists. Yeah, I know. Which allows for the possibility of him driving to the Salford Studios, blaring some K-pop with just BTS going in the Bentley. Yeah, incredible stuff. presumably Henry Winkler posted a 250 word tweet with a few puns right go on Adam catch up I don't get it

24:25Charlie Eccleshare:I'm really sorry Henry Winter oh fuck sorry mate we're five hours ahead of you and on a completely different way possibly chemically I think the BBC should have got Dimbleby in for the half time show like narrated it you know like he was doing like a royal wedding or something what perfect way to show this is what this is what the BBC can give you because that was the awkward thing that Rudy was not only coming off the back of the halftime show he was coming off the back of this massive set piece fronted by Romesh of like a remake of a John Cleese fronted advert from the 80s of this is what the um this is what the BBC can can do for you or does do for you and I think I think they sort of caught some of FIFA's shade I think because it was kind of so the proximity to the halftime show i was getting a lot of message from people going fucking hell yes just watch that and now we've got to watch this as well as you know as i've said before i am a staunch bbc supporter and uh i i thought it was a very good production but yeah the two together perhaps wasn't the ideal association this episode is brought to you by starbucks that is fire whoa that's good This might be the drink of the summer.

25:45Okay, I like this one too. I'm rocking with it. Okay.

25:47Nick Miller:Try it for yourself. Starbucks refreshers concentrates are coming home. Find them in the coffee aisle and make it yours.

25:57Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

26:05Charlie Eccleshare:The halftime show as a whole, Nick, was quite unremarkable. It was an engineering feat, if anything. I'm in awe of the fact that they can sort of put something on like this and then dismantle it and then allow the actual thing that's supposed to happen on grass actually happen. But I think the last thing that football needs, you know, apart from all these musical interludes for half an hour, half time, is people tapping into their inner Eurovision on Twitter. Football doesn't need that. Football's got just enough of that, of which I am, you know, an active part. But we don't need wry takes from football adjacent people.

26:36Just why everything about it was just so objectionable. the kind of the the like how are we going to actually we probably need to fit football into this somehow the blokes from tad lasso yeah brilliant yeah yeah that to me was a low ronaldo and ronaldinho driving yeah seeing ronaldo like a childhood hero on that little car i was

26:58Nick Miller:like this is this feels sad for the man who plundered those goals against morocco in the

27:03Charlie Eccleshare:world cup 19th group stage great use of plunder there um i enjoyed this from jack lang of the Athletic in their snap match report after the game. He says, there was a moment in added time at the end of regular time when Messi sprang into life. He had spent most of the preceding 90 minutes in glorious isolation, watching from afar as Spain passed the Argentino defence into a state of hypnosis. He'd barely touched the ball, let alone managed to weave the usual magic with it. But a player of Messi's class never stays quiet for long. And so, just after Enzo Fernandes' red card, he dug deep and grasped Marc Cucarella up for speaking to him with his hand over his mouth.

27:35Charlie Eccleshare:that was a genuinely pathetic moment Charlie and we've seen we've seen sort of early tremors of that you know players are on to it obviously they know they can get someone sent off but the worst thing about it not just the fact that it was Lionel Messi indulging in it but the fact that he took about three seconds to think it over and thought fuck it I'm gonna do it and Cagrella was like oh no don't please don't Cagrella who would be the biggest one to do this

27:58Nick Miller:as well by the way I can't think of a player more likely to try and grasp the player up for covering their mouth. Yeah, I guess it is a decision, isn't it? It's like, am I going to be that guy? Because there was one in the... Was it Paredes who was doing it to Harry Kane in the England-Argentina game? And he was like, come on, mate. Yeah, it was a bit disappointing from the great man.

28:19Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, the great man, exactly. Spot on. On the great man, Jake, I'm prepared to be alone on this, in this five-man adjudication panel, but I feel like I've just had enough of Messi, not just for one tournament, but for his career. He's become quite hard to watch. A lot of his goals and his contributions to this tournament, not all of them, have been slightly over-egged. He hasn't scored an incredible goal in this tournament. He's just constantly been doing it at the age of 39. And everything just feels a bit not quite good enough. I don't know. It's really hard to explain. But he's really running on fumes, really.

28:53Charlie Eccleshare:And so are our superlatives. I do agree in that. It is strange. It's a strange thing. They're basically playing with 10 men. and the greatest player ever, who's 39, is just stood on the kind of halfway line on the right. And every so often he'll do something kind of unbelievable, but then he'll just wander around for the rest of the game. And so I just think there is a strangeness to it. And even the kind of mob mobbed up, like walking out of the tunnel with all of the lads behind him. There's an oddness to that as well that I think I'm responding to. It was great at the start of the tournament, that sort of shot of them sort of bodyguarding him.

29:29Charlie Eccleshare:But yeah, I'm not going to say ground tight because I don't want to dismiss it entirely. It was really exposed when they went down to 10 men.

29:35Nick Miller:Oh, yeah. Because the 4-4-1 or whatever, when he's just literally, he's not running. He's absolutely not doing his bit. Even before then, there were moments where it was like, it's like when you used to play a computer game and you're playing with someone who doesn't really know what they're doing and it's controlling a player and they're just miles off it. And he'd just sort of be stood there as the play was happening around. Obviously, zero interest in getting involved. And he did also crystallise something we haven't mentioned. What made yesterday doubly annoying with Argentina was thinking like, yeah, I already feel we paid too much respect to this Argentina team.

30:08Nick Miller:We paid way fucking too much respect to this Argentina team. Like, this is what we were like chucking on seven defenders for. This team hasn't had a shot in the final. But it was like, and Messi, like my brother actually called this on Saturday. He was like, as good as Messi, we were talking about the game. He was like, as good as Messi was against England, like you have Messi over the last like five, ten years. is how often have we seen him just look sad and old against proper teams? And that was exactly what happened on Sunday. It was like, God, yeah, he is really old and doesn't move. But against us, obviously, he was amazing.

30:39It's like if you played FIFA, though, with two players controlling the same team, and one of the controllers just walked away. Yeah. And their players just stood still and just wandered off. Stood by the corner flag, yeah, on their own, staring into the crowd.

30:54Charlie Eccleshare:He's coming back. that Messi's inactivity off the ball has become so stark, Nick. And there's this kind of perennial obsession with how much he walks through games. I think he spends 64 % of his tournament walking. But it got to the point during this World Cup final, especially sort of in the latter stages, where I thought, what's the trigger for him getting involved off the ball? And sort of Spain were attacking down the left. And I think it was Nico Williams after he'd come on. And the full-back was sort of facing up to him. And I thought, is Messi going to get involved here? and he sort of, as his walk took him closer, he suddenly realised he'd have to do it.

31:28Charlie Eccleshare:And I thought, wow, what's the trigger for Messi going, fuck, I'd better muck in here. Because it's a very precise thing for him, presumably. It also seems completely random. There were a couple of times where he suddenly just sprinted to press someone. Why is he doing that? The bit I enjoyed later on in the game, I think it must have been after the goal, was Simeone, I think, looked injured. I think he lost Torres for the goal. and I think it was because he'd injured himself. But then after they scored, there was a bit where Simeone was running around doing all pressing for Messi, limping the whole time, obviously injured.

32:02But he had to be the one fucking running around. I would definitely be getting annoyed at this. I get annoyed at this in Seven Aside where there's someone who's markedly obviously better than everyone else but doesn't run around. I think they must have to check themselves because if I'm Montiel and I look up and he's not covered again, what's the Spanish for any danger? Do you know what I mean? And then you remember, oh, it's Messi, yeah, he can do what he likes. But it's getting annoying. It must be getting annoying. They're so servile, aren't they?

32:29Nick Miller:And the moment it doesn't work, you've got to be like, oh. I can't remember who it was, but someone said earlier on in the tournament, yeah, we want to win this for Messi. Come on, fuck off, mate. Come on, win it for yourself. Have some self-respect. Yes, he's obviously the best player ever. Yeah, we all love watching him. And, you know, your whole team is sort of based around this guy. So you're going to be deferential to him to a point. but kind of a bit of dignity. Come on. Do you ever feel, Jake, that you're doing all of Jacob's pressing on the Screwpot podcast? Yeah, exactly. If by pressing, you mean not saying potentially libelous things.

33:03Yeah, I am giving him a lot of room to roam there for sure.

33:08Charlie Eccleshare:Let's turn our attentions to the real denouement of this World Cup, which was the third and fourth place playoff, France 4, England 6. France 4, England 6. Charlie, I had great pleasure telling my wife and child the scoreline the following morning. They couldn't believe their ears.

33:24Nick Miller:I know. I went with that order as well. Yeah, yeah. You know, really build up the suspense. Crazy. It's a tennis score.

33:31Charlie Eccleshare:Felt like James Alexander Gordon.

33:33Nick Miller:Exactly, yeah. We get to the live reaction.

33:36Charlie Eccleshare:This game threatened to be a doom-laden affair, Dave, especially because Thomas Tuchel's pre-match press conference was crowned by this question. There's been a lot of narrative and a lot of opinions on how England finished the game on the pitch in terms of the set-up. Donald Trump's even had a word about it today and had his opinion today on reflection 48 hours after.

34:00Nick Miller:Do you use Donald Trump as your witness for the case? No, no, no, no.

34:04Charlie Eccleshare:I'm just saying he's had his opinion. Can't have this, Dave Walker. Can't have this. Can't have the England manager being asked this question. It's SEO journalism, basically, isn't it? he's chucked donald trump in i think he i don't know whether he's been asked to do that or whatever but like if you're going to ask about donald trump ask about donald trump yeah just sort of just drop him in halfway through because that's what's going to happen yeah this is the thing with trump generally across this tournament charlie he's just been this kind of vague point of interest but there isn't actually any substance behind it so you just got to chuck him in i saw him in lots of headlines for the world cup final trump in attendance because you've got to get him in there but it's it's just not interesting enough i don't think is it like is it like the frank

34:45Nick Miller:lampard's coventry like donald trump's america putting him in at any opportunity i saw a lot

34:51Charlie Eccleshare:of possessives last night trump's america leonard messes argentina and laminia miles spain obviously this game was absurd nick but i really feared for tuchel at 4-3 because i i mean i mean it was cartoonishly good in the first half and then at 4-3 i thought oh god have we got to do this all over again for a game that we haven't all established didn't mean anything that would have been too much for him i think he might have actually gone after this game yeah i mean what it was it was always that kind of slight you can't win here because if england play really well and win where was that on wednesday if they lose well obviously this guy's a fucking clown so uh i suppose i suppose in some respects this is this is the best that well i mean obviously it was the best it could have gone for him because it was like you know the the the threat of a a calamitous comeback, but then actually winning it quite convincingly.

35:39Charlie Eccleshare:Jake, it does to a certain extent matter who finishes third at a World Cup. I think historically it's been referenced, it's been documented who finished third, and it's a thing. But this game itself, what other game in football history could this possibly be compared to, in all things considered? It was utterly unique, completely ludicrous. Some said it was soccerade. I don't want to go that far. I think that's harsh. No, this game was the game that the phrase feel of a testimonial was invented for. Like, I think I heard that three or four different times. It's got the vibe of a testimonial. It's really sunny as well.

36:12It's like that. So that lent itself to the pace of a preseason friendly. You can't really compare it to anything because this isn't even like the kind of mad Arsenal Reading one in the Carabao Cup or whatever, because that might be meant more, weirdly. I don't know. But yeah, it was so hard to get your head around. And then both of them playing high lines. So it was just this constant basketball match. Yeah, it was nuts.

36:36Nick Miller:I do think what it was so interesting was like, presumably, you know, the biggest explanation was just like the intensity and seriousness dropped off by like, probably even only a really small amount. But just that turned it into a complete joke of a game. And like how many touches Bellingham's allowed before that? Like that is a power league sort of goal. Amazing.

36:54Charlie Eccleshare:That goal. You have about 12 touches in the box. That goal is really interesting. And you could argue, Dave, that the game itself probably had maybe too many goals to be taken properly seriously. But that final goal from Bellingham, Dave, I've watched you in your now iconic pose in your seat behind Lineker on Netflix social media content. and I was trying as I was watching that I was trying to imagine this game properly matching like it being a semi-final or a final or something and watching you react to Bellingham's goal and you celebrate it in in good style but then I looked looked at the goal again and I thought just how many touches too many is it to be taken seriously as like a proper World Cup goal well because it had the initial burst through when he wins the ball and and runs over the halfway wayline is a kind of spontaneously kind of moving moment like you get up you're like and but then it kind of like oh uh yeah okay yeah this is this is a complete joke of a game like he there was there was a moment not long before actually when he had a a similar-ish sort of chance when you just know if there's something on the line in this game you are not taking the extra touch in the box

38:04Nick Miller:like you just wouldn't be doing it i think that goal is like how a football film would depict like a World Cup winning goal or something and you'd be like that's totally mad and unrealistic a guy just like dribbling past everyone going really close to goal and then like and then it like pausing as Bellingham hits the ball and then like it's a Gillette advert goal

38:23Charlie Eccleshare:isn't it like the last shot he's belting it in from three yards if they got me in as a consultant on that I'm vetoing that 100 % exactly the director's going okay so we'll finish and he's like he's three yards out there's three players on the line and he twats into it no chance they're all slipping and sliding around him No one defends like that. Look, we're having our fun with this, guys. But Nick, I want a definitive decision on when should Bellingham have scored that goal to make it look like it should have been in a semifinal or final. Is it after the first dummy? So he doesn't shoot with his left.

38:54Charlie Eccleshare:He cuts inside, then slots it. Is that it? Yeah, probably. Or even could he have shot before that? because it's sort of vaguely similar but with a longer run up to the goal against Norway with his left foot. So, yeah. Yeah, it was... And as you say, Charlie, it's just these little margins that like in his brain, his brain worked out that this game didn't matter and he took a completely different route to go, which is an amazing thing for a footballer to do. That's the subtleties of what we were working with. But as many people pointed out, Danny Murphy began the game on the BBC completely washing his hands of the whole thing and then ended up doing this.

39:33Charlie Eccleshare:Steve Wilson, by the way, absolutely superb here. Oh, what a brilliant run, Bellingham. And still, Manion with the block. Rodgers, blocked by Lacroix.

39:47Danny, people can hear you if you bang the microphone on the table.

39:50Charlie Eccleshare:Sorry, sorry. Because that will shout really loud. That's a really good telling off, Jake. Look, it's just the right amount. It's just friendly enough, but also genuinely cares about the broadcasting quality of what's going on. Yeah, I think he treads the line really well. I mean, I am slightly worried that I'll get halfway through an answer on this and just see Adam banging his microphone against the table in frustration. But yeah, it's also the kind of end of term vibe, because that's not been Murphy's commentary partner throughout either, is it? So this is like, this is whoever's left to do the final shift before you lock up for Christmas.

40:21This is like, yeah, it's really interesting. So I didn't see the before the game. So Murphy was like talking it down and then has gone full like smashing his mic. That's amazing.

40:30Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of the journey we kind of all went on. On Danny Murphy, Nick, lovely little touch from the BBC in the final credits of the final broadcast by giving a shout out to commentary mascot Bob the Cat in between the co-commentators and radio engineers. That's class. Yeah, so Murphy's had an interesting tournament, I think. Despite myself, I found myself really warming to him during this tournament. The whole cap thing was so ludicrous that you could sort of hear the social team's hands rubbing together as he was telling that story. So, oh, this is going to be great, clipped up.

41:05And I could feel myself falling into the trap. But for whatever reason, I don't know whether it's just, I don't know what it is, but I found myself liking Danny Murphy much more than I did before.

41:17Nick Miller:Good. Yeah, and also, Adam, you mentioned about, you know, could Wayne Rooney end up as Loro? I mean, Danny Murphy felt on that journey forever. That felt inevitable. That felt his destiny. I feel like he's navigated away from that with, you know, increasingly fair play to him.

41:31Charlie Eccleshare:A more technical cliches related matter, though. In the Daily Mail, Dave, their report says, Ousmane Dembélé then smashed a French fourth before Bellingham danced through the goal mouth for England's sixth. With that, the World Cup wooden spoon was theirs. That's not the wooden spoon. We finished third, for God's sake.

41:47Nick Miller:No, exactly. It's the pot spoon. It's our best finish ever in an overseas World Cup. Who got the wooden spoon of this World Cup? Because they do technically rank the teams, don't they?

42:00Charlie Eccleshare:Somebody would have finished 48th in this World Cup. If it's based on goal difference alone, so there's the worst performing team on goal difference, that is Iraq, I think, minus 12, played three, lost three. So if it's no more sophisticated than that, then they're bottomed. But yeah, usually the ranking is published somewhere, at least on the wikipedia page or something but yeah not yet maybe they're still calculating it i don't know you should do a little presentation and you know they do the golden ball and the young player and everything get the wooden spoon winning captain up at the end yeah get the iraqi striker who looked shit hot as well he's really good he'd do a job in the championship as well there was something a real army captain vibe about him and he was that towering header so yeah i like him a lot it is indeed iraq was 48th um with a goal difference of minus 11 then Tunisia, Uzbekistan, Haiti, Jordan and Panama rounding out the teams who did not win or did not get a point.

42:50Charlie Eccleshare:Okay. They will, however, get a second bite of the cherry. More on that after the break.

43:05Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

43:12Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. Dreamland episode 27. The long-awaited next episode of Dreamland is out now. It dropped at midnight after the World Cup final. David Walker, where are your energy levels? As I was editing the episode, the latest episode, which, of course, was football on holiday, it occurred to me that there were two aspects of the more modern holiday experience. that we did you know as is often the way no we did we didn't cover everything kind of things come to you so firstly you know we talked a lot about the the experience the classic experience of getting the newspaper two days old and you know catching up with the transfer news in the 90s and all that and I was sort of thinking about well you know what is the modern experience what do you do and I reckon that there are a lot of of people out there who because they're so connected to their phones and so invested in you know transfer sagas that there will be there will be people who who's abiding memory of being at incredible wonders of the world somebody would have been on the great will of china or in the sistine chapel and the thing they can remember about when an orny bomba dropped yeah or orny getting a getting a notification that their club has signed

44:31Nick Miller:a player or whatever that is almost certainly the case yeah um genuinely one of my favorite

44:36Charlie Eccleshare:dreamland episode single topic episodes it was an absolute joy to record we got into the niche detail of what specific type of furniture is best to sit on in a turkish peach bar while watching football on a projector screen i went rattan i went full rattan dave was skeptical so if that tickles your fancy you can sign up at dreamland.footballcliches.com for just 5.99 a month you'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes plus two episodes a month of dreamland our exclusive show and other things as well the other thing we didn't mention right is is the the outsized role that Keezy, the keys and gray have probably played in people's holiday football holiday experience.

45:11The amount of people who end up watching be in, whether they're in the middle East or in Europe. So many DMs from people. And that's just being in a bar.

45:18Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that was the demographic after all. Maybe that's what paid their salaries. Meanwhile, we want our listeners to get in touch for July's Meza Harland Dix. We want your 32nd voice note about your ultimate niche footballing fascination or irritation. you can DM me on X on Instagram or you can email at footballcliches at gmail.com but get those voice notes in and that episode will go out next week right over to some well actually England related matters actually let's recap with World Cup Uncensored Piers Morgan for some reason gone AWOL so Simon Jordan is at the helm for this Jake but Graeme Souness was on the latest one he's having a lovely little tournament of takes I think Graeme Souness Here he is on the absent Cole Palmer.

46:03Nick Miller:Graham, would you have taken Cole Palmer? I think he's outstanding, yes. I don't know what his character is. I got a little insight into that in Dubai in February where he was extremely rude to someone in a restaurant. Now, whether that's a big part of Tuchel, but I love getting a glimpse, Jake,

46:20Charlie Eccleshare:of Suarez's moral fibre. It's just like that one incident, and that's it, he's made up his mind. It's so good, and you can see that like he's he's kind of debating with himself on saying yeah he's class i would have taken him and then he's like i've got to say this i cannot i cannot let this go unsaid i saw him be rude to a waiter in dubai and i don't know if that's a character issue um yeah just just a remarkable more of that please more of like have you been in a in a restaurant with bruno gimmeray do you like do i mean should i want to i want that is that you reckon that's on the tony bloom kind of profile thing like exactly how good is their english what would they be like to a waiter in a restaurant like that's what we need for sure yeah definitely I saw Sunez say as well about Declan Rice he's not got enough football in him which is mental but also I know exactly what he's kind of driving at even if I disagree with it so yeah great tournament for Sui so does that basically mean he hasn't got enough in his locker he's still pushing the Declan Rice should be a centre half thing yeah for like five years now I think he first said it on Sky he says I see him at centre half and Charlie saying that you see someone at centre half is is is it's really kind of entry level contrarianism it it's very hard for someone to disprove the whole yeah I see his future at centre half to be honest because it's it feels learned doesn't it yeah I feel that you've got

47:40Nick Miller:a vision you see the game in a different way you've got this vision for him you know for me you know I'm operating a different plane you guys probably can't see that I actually see him as a goalkeeper but that's that's me it's sort of more powerful than than if you say oh i see him as a right back because he has actually played there a bit if you try to convince people that he is going to be good at something he hasn't done then it only only makes your prediction more powerful well isn't it because he did as a kid when he was at chelsea he was a centre-back so isn't it partly as well a kind of like well i know a bit more than you do about it he did play a few games for West Ham, I think, at centre-half when he first came through.

48:20And I think that's the only reason people like someone like Sooners is saying this. Nothing about Decom Rice's game screams centre-half. He's like a marauding

48:29Charlie Eccleshare:sort of number eight. Is there something David Luiz-y about him, potentially? Yeah. It's been a great week for Graeme Sooners' montages on Twitter, at least. A lot of people seeing what Sooners was like as a player on the back of his opinions. An alarming piece of data, which I'm not going to question because it looks thoroughly researched, Dave. Not speculation, but chat about what England are going to do post-Harry Kane, if that is indeed something that we're going to have to confront at the next World Cup. Mio Nomadev tweeted, This is a list of English strikers who will be below the age of 30 at the Euros, with at least one appearance in a top five league this season.

48:59Charlie Eccleshare:Liam DeLapp, Eddie Nketiah and Dane Scarlett. Now, there's a few caveats to that sort of list, but should we be worried? Who's going to break through from that trio and be England's hero at the Euros? Look, I do think that Harry Kane is just going to linger on for ages. I think he'll probably still be playing in the next World Cup, let alone the Euros. I think he'll still be there. I see him as a kind of sentiment fielder, actually, by that point. Don't say quarterback. Don't you dare. We've got to go beyond quarterback discourse. I won't have it. Someone else whose future appears up in the air is John Stones.

49:35Charlie Eccleshare:And this passed me by at the time. Here's Guy Mowbray on John Stones during the semi-final against Argentina. That is brilliant defending. and they lose the first ball, but he makes sure he wins the second one. John Stones have no fixed abode club-wise right now.

49:53Charlie Eccleshare:Nick, I love no fixed abode. That should really catch on for an unattached player at World Cup. That's class. Yeah, it was great. I noticed this at the time, and by that point, I think I was already getting annoyed at how England were playing and firing off messages to people who kind of vaguely cared about it. and that kind of really took me out of that annoyance for a few seconds and I thought, wow, that's lovely, I really like that and then kind of went back Yeah, it's quite jaunty Yeah, it was

50:19Nick Miller:The 66th minute of that game for World Cubs and me finally as Sargentina

50:23Charlie Eccleshare:Keep him in the shop window, I guess

50:24Nick Miller:You'll be pleased to know, Adam I feel like this will be right in your It just feels so right Arsenal have been linked by the Sun today with John Stones and I was thinking that short, you know, former Man City he'll know Arteta those two, even if there's no chance of that happening those two are going to get put together at some point.

50:41Charlie Eccleshare:If it wasn't for those ingredients, I wouldn't see it at all. But yes, I see what you mean. Dave, meanwhile, I know you've been emotionally invested in this throughout the tournament. I can officially confirm, now the tournament has finished, that Jude Bellingham has finished top of the rankings in offers to receive 485. That's 54 ahead of Kylian Mbappe. And further 17 ahead of Rodri, the supposed golden ball winner. I think that's quite surprising. I don't really sort of think of Bellingham as an offers to receive sort of player, really.

51:12Nick Miller:Really? Yeah, I think he is quite demonstrative.

51:15Charlie Eccleshare:Give me the ball.

51:16Nick Miller:Give me the ball.

51:17Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know how many of those, Charlie, came in the 6-4 win over France. Has he been snap padding with his offers to receive in that game? I think I can't do it. I can do it. I can do it for the ball. Yeah. Shouldn't count in the third place playoff, should they, the offers to receive? But yeah, it's an honour. I mean, the top 10 is full of all the big names. So it's obviously a thing. And Daniel Mignot, I should also add. Enjoy this from Grace Robertson, Nick. Luis de la Fuente isn't able to do his job so well just because he's already managed Spain under-21s. He's part of a wider system and philosophy those players have been coached to do since they were kids.

51:48Charlie Eccleshare:Hiring Lee Carsley doesn't magically invent one of those. And this is the, I mean, obviously Lee Carsley isn't going to be England manager in the next six months or something, but it does make you wonder, will English football panic and do what they have done over the last 20 years and sort of try and find that European flavoured panacea to kind of fix the English game? and this one will be getting a guy from within because that's what the Spanish do. It's got like if he results in the next international break, Tuchel either is sacked or kind of decides, fuck it, I'm leaving. And then Carsley comes in and again, it's got that kind of written all over it.

52:22This was a real kind of there but for the grace of God go I thing because I was inches away from suggesting a piece about maybe England should do this kind of, you know, because of course the two teams in the final haven't been and then just kind of snapped out of it and you know started it was like an out-of-body experience looking at myself going what the fuck are you doing why stop at carsley why don't you give it to les reed or whatever yeah anthony barry why not yeah just give it to one of these guys

52:52Charlie Eccleshare:yeah i i just i have got the energy to get into anthony barry's half-time um interview during the third and fourth place playoff it's just too far um but i'll tell you what i do have energy for jake it's this from ruben van der kruysen he says i've designed the world cup shield a deliberately demob happy secondary tournament for eliminated teams running alongside the expanded 48 team world cup later stage losers enter later there are no buys or awkward uneven rounds and the whole thing follows the university plate or shield tradition so this is knocked out teams having another crack at it in a world cup plate so uh yeah so if you go out in the um in the groups you get to come in with the 16 round of 32 losers for another knockout tie and it all basically unfolds towards the uh towards the semi-finals so here are the projected semi-finals from Ruben van der Kroysen Morocco Germany Belgium Colombia Norway Portugal and Switzerland versus Brazil and Morocco Belgium Norway and Brazil all progress semi-finals Morocco versus Brazil Belgium versus Norway Morocco and Belgium win and it's a final of the plate between Morocco and Belgium and Morocco win.

53:57Charlie Eccleshare:That is just the perfect plate winner for the World Cup. They're smack bang. I mean, their FIFA world ranking to me is inflated. But, you know, reputation-wise, that is smack bang in the middle of who should be winning the World Cup plate. Yeah, I agree that they are definitely the right candidates. As someone who couldn't handle it like with interblock football, the plate system, when I was at university, I'm not sure I won it for the World Cup. But just to clarify as well, we we couldn't have to lose twice could we because that i can't deal with that no england went too far in the competition to be to be allowed to drop down into the plate i can't confirm all right yeah because i can't i can't have us i can't have us going into our shells in the semi-final actual and the plate as well as we get beat 1-0 by belgium i'm not having that dave's health think

54:43Nick Miller:of the england pod come on and the third place play off in the plate would the england pod dave cover the plate if England were in it. Oh, mate, we've done pods on the under-19s. We'd be all over the plate.

54:56Charlie Eccleshare:Who would broadcast the plate, Charlie? Channel 5? Do you think BBC and ITV would wash their hands of it and go, no, we can't do this.

55:02Nick Miller:I mean, maybe ITV 4. Yeah, the secondary channels.

55:06Charlie Eccleshare:Stick it on iPlayer and be ITV 4.

55:08Nick Miller:I could see Channel 5 getting back into football with this. It'd also mean your World Cup wall chart would be like billboard-sized as well. You'd have to put it on one of your living room walls yeah and you dread thing what fief pro would make of this i'd love to see who gets the

55:23Charlie Eccleshare:accreditation for the final of morocco versus belgium in the plate nick nick you'd be up for that morocco belgium yeah that's me the day before i was like you want to fancy that yeah yeah brilliant um yeah sorry ruben please don't um urge fifa to make this happen um but uh we have to wrap up this world cup in the most fitting manner it's the pure 2026 world cup 11 charlie there are a few standout candidates for this team but overall i don't think there's a great strength in depth for kind of cult figures specifically characterizing this world cup and nothing else am i wrong yeah

55:55Nick Miller:i mean i wonder if a couple of things one if like sometimes you need a bit of distance to fully appreciate some characters others i guess now as well documented but there's more known about you know most players there are far fewer unknown players at a world cup and because some of the guys who are like vorzinha people like that weren't known about but most people even like um you know cape verd were covered so well by people like nick that it's not like we went in without knowing a lot of the stories we knew already it's not like oh really that guy's irish wow well let's let's go from linkedin exactly we'll be on him in a moment but yeah we'll go to our

56:34Charlie Eccleshare:cape bird correspondent nick miller uh we we have to start with vorzinha in goal with all due respect to Curacao's 15-save hero, Iloy Roome. But Vizinha's World Cup was, like, it couldn't be better designed for this XI, could it? Yeah, and he's already, he's already kind of on some kind of celebrity, he went back to Cape Verde, he's now on some kind of celebrity tour in America, or was over the kind of weekend. He was, like, meeting various legends. Just, I don't know, just wandering around, looking slightly baffled, meeting, you know, legends of World Cup past. I don't think he's quite got to the point of overtly monetising his new social media clout.

57:14Yeah. I mean, that's in the post. Vizinha coming out of the American equivalent of mumbo-jumbos and then going, what are you up to next? More of these, just more of these.

57:24Charlie Eccleshare:He's just waving in my gloves. I've got stuff to save, but I won't listen. That's enough of that. Right. Into defence we go. surely we have to have another Cape Verdean and that's Pico Lopez, the aforementioned LinkedIn hero. He was nailed on for this XI even before the tournament started, I think, Dave. Did he have a good game? I mean, obviously, I suppose they drew He was grey against Spain. So I think he edges out Sidney Lopez Cabral, he of the wonder goal against Argentina which I genuinely think might be the goal of the tournament. But speaking of having to give distance to players to really appreciate in this context, Charlie, what about Jed Spence?

58:06Charlie Eccleshare:If this podcast was being made in Ecuador and they were thinking of the pure World Cup XI, I think Jed Spence might suddenly have got into their consciousness in a way that there wasn't before. So in that sense, I think we should allow him in.

58:17Nick Miller:Yeah, I mean, I don't know if we talked about it, but that tackle that he made in the World Cup same final, which obviously is now completely forgotten about, but that was a proper moment. And that would have been mentioned in the Badriel and Skinner song of this World Cup if we'd won it. That was a real moment.

58:33Charlie Eccleshare:We're lacking for defenders. Anybody else got any defenders for our pure World Cup XI? I've got, just very briefly, back to Pico Lopez. I mentioned that Virginia hasn't shown any signs of monetising his new fame now. Pico Lopez has appeared in an advert in Ireland for Curries, in which he goes in and purchases a TV, and there's various banter with the people who work in Curries. And amazingly, he's pretty good. He's got some decent acting chops. But yeah, anyway. That's good news for him. The one other defender I had in mind was, I get this pronunciation right, Tarek Mohenorjevic. That was my guy as well.

59:13Yeah, because it was that, I mean, maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but it was a classic thing of someone who I'd never heard of before getting a move to the Premier League. He's signed for Leeds, I think.

59:24Charlie Eccleshare:Ah, right. He's signed for Leeds. Got studied by Balogun, moved to Leeds the next day. It's perfect. oh so he was central to the Balogun incident is that why he got the move this is ridiculous this is retro this is amazing of course he's in of course he's in I particularly like about this because clubs will kind of fall over themselves to kind of say well no we're not just reacting to the World Cup I would like Leeds to give that press conference that Bielsa gave after the Spygate thing where it went on for ages and he was handing around dossiers and all this kind of thing for them to show their previous words all kind of date stamped.

1:00:02So no, we had scouring pots on this fucker in 2024. We haven't just reacted to the World Cup. We don't actually think about these things. We've got data. We love his early stuff. Yeah.

1:00:13Charlie Eccleshare:Any other defenders? We've only got three at the back here. I won't abide it. I mean, can we not... This is very Cape Verde heavy, but can we not put Sidney Lopez Cabral in there as well? Oh, go on then. Yeah, go on then. Should we not have all of England's right backs? Because it was such a theme of the tournament. Oh, Gerald Kwanzaa! Bloody hell. Oh, God, yeah. I mean, we bigged up his sort of narrative sort of significance to England's World Cup. Maybe Jarrell Quanto is in our back four. Yeah, the most emblematic one might be Livramento. Can we have someone who hasn't played? Who wasn't even there?

1:00:45Charlie Eccleshare:Trevor Chalamet with his single minutes. Okay, into midfield we go. And, you know, to respect the early part of this tournament as much as the latter stages, Charlie, I think we should start with Ayobouadi of Morocco. yet another game orchestrating Moroccan at a World Cup. He's, I mean, I like conflating cult figures with shop window figures at this World Cup and he fits kind of both for me. So I think he's good to anchor our midfield.

1:01:09Nick Miller:Yeah, I think he, I think, yeah, he was an early stage story. I would also have as a late stage story, Paredes just as a kind of, I feel like that, this Argentina team, they've got to have some representation. They were such a huge element of this World Cup and he was, yeah, I mean, he was very visible.

1:01:25Charlie Eccleshare:I like Paredes for this, Jake, as Ian Walcock writes and he says, Argentina hatchet man Leandro Paredes has to have won himself a late call up here. A man who both looks and plays like he's dropped in the present day from the 1966 World Cup. But not just that, like his hatchet man-ness has got to the point where you don't think of him as a footballer at all. And then his antics after the finals, which is like the most violent throat grab I've ever seen in football. That cements his position here, I think. Yeah, I think you've got to have him in there. It has the vibe of like a fascist officer from a World War Two film, which is kind of makes sense from coming from Argentina in some ways.

1:02:01But it's like the eyes, the death stare that he gave Jude Bellingham, like 50 seconds in, kind of elbow to the back of the head was like, kind of like, oh, yeah, this guy's on one. And then to go after Gavi, who I think is like 20 and 5 foot 4, at the final whistle. Talk about cementing your villain status forever.

1:02:22Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, just to top things off, I don't think I've got any inkling of his footballing qualities whatsoever. I mean, look, first I sought to include him in this team. I thought he was a centre-back because he's got such a centre-back vibe about him. But no, it turns out he's just like some midfield screen that is just there to roughhouse people. So yeah, I'd have no comprehension of his footballing ability whatsoever. Our third man in midfield, pure shop window. johan manzambi and if it couldn't get more perfect just in terms of the level that he's currently at he was gonna sign for newcastle but then villa hijacked it just it's just beautiful and he's swiss like everything about it is just it fits together like a lovely jigsaw yeah yeah very nice actually mid tournament for a premier league club like as as you've just said nick i'm sure these obviously obviously the scouting departments will be aware of these players but it did just have a nice feel of like oh this guy's unexpectedly in and around the the golden boot conversation and here he is pops up at at Villa having having them pipped Newcastle I feel slightly robbed by his transfer to the Premier League because I have a kind of thing that I think of as like the hallow old friend hall of fame where it's like every two years it's like oh here's Julian Vargas like I wonder what he's up to now where it's like not quite good enough that I see them playing the Champions League all the time but coming on for the Swiss with 15 minutes to play and it's like Manzambi would have been the perfect every two years.

1:03:44Just like, oh, what's he up to now?

1:03:46Charlie Eccleshare:The Swiss are so good for this. Why is it such a Swiss thing? Because they're just not good enough generally to play for big Premier League teams. We're not going to see them week in, week out, but they'll pop up in the Europa League all the time, which is, I guess, the sweet spot for that kind of, oh, hello again. I was going to suggest Ricardo Rodriguez for defence, but I thought it was just a bit too, he didn't really do anything much. He didn't really impinge on my consciousness other than going, oh, there's Ricardo Rodriguez. I just thought it was too much of a cliche. He has transcended it, hasn't he?

1:04:13Nick Miller:Yeah, I was going to say, he's individual tournament agnostic. He's at least three of our 11s as well, Charles. He just can't win another. Also feels a bit more Euro-y than World Cup-y. Yeah, I would say so.

1:04:25Charlie Eccleshare:Into our three-man forward line. I mean, we're spoilt for choice here, but Jake, is Kylian Mbappe too good to be in our pure 2026 World Cup 11? I feel like he bestrode this World Cup in many respects. Yeah, it's so hard because it's like the guy that's golden, like won the top score award again for the first time ever. But and then was kind of like so good that everyone just assumed they were going to win from like minute one of day one. It feels like he has to be in there. But he's too, he is too good. Although I think that mitigation, how can you be this good and have a multi-million signed petition to get you to leave your club in the same year?

1:05:03Like that's good. That's world copy actually. Clean slate stuff.

1:05:06Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, exactly. Because, I mean, an argument could be made, Dave, that Kylian Mbappe's World Cup legacy is, you know, is pan-tournament. You know, he's won the Golden Boot before, he's won the tournament before. What I would argue is, and this is propelled mostly by JPB's ironic tweets about him finally arriving on the international scene, is this the World Cup where he became pure World Cup? Whereas before it wasn't quite on, he was at PSG and he was going to set the world alight at club level and break all sorts of records here and he was in the middle of transfer for Rora and all that sort of stuff.

1:05:34Charlie Eccleshare:Now, he really is just pure international football now, and I think this is the World Cup that sealed it. A little bit. I think it mirrors his season nicely, because he scored a ridiculous amount of goals for Real Madrid this season, and yet, by their own standards, they failed. They had a poor season. So he kind of is carving out a reputation as kind of someone who's out for himself, perhaps. That's not really how he played for France, but you know what I mean. But I think, could we consider Dembele, who scored a hat-trick against Norway's reserves, if you like? Yeah, you know, the 10 changes of Norway.

1:06:08And he kind of boosted his numbers with that. I saw him being talked about for team of the tournament. You're like, well...

1:06:16Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, but how many times did Dembele have a close-up from the match director of him flubbering his lips after he'd missed a chance?

1:06:23Nick Miller:The lip flubbing was outstanding. I think Mbappe's good. I think often with our teams, we do allow a little bit of stardust. I think it's all right.

1:06:31Charlie Eccleshare:It might look left field, but I think it's good. Looking all the way back to the very first day of this World Cup, Nick, Julian Quinones, the score of the first goal of this tournament all the way back in mid-June. And as we've discussed in this pod before, ticks the box of being 29 unexpectedly and thinking he might be quite a handy signing, but it turns out he plays in Saudi. Like, I really like Julian Quinones for this team. Yeah, a classic. and also one of those, I think what we talked about in a pod before the tournament where he, possibly because of this goal, he became a danger man when Mexico played England.

1:07:06And as you say, it turns out he's actually not that good. He just kind of scored this goal and was a bit fast. So therefore, England should be kind of petrified of him.

1:07:15Charlie Eccleshare:Now, we said we probably should have made this claim right at the very start of this tournament, Jake. And this dilemma has finally reared its ugly head right at the last. it's the old Saibari versus Balogun debate which one's going to be in the pure 2026 World Cup I think it has to be Balogun just for the for the for the political skullduggery around it that might be one of the most memorable things of this World Cup because like eight years from now where that's happening like regularly we'll be like oh that was the moment like that was the moment it all went really remember when that used to be remarkable yeah so so I think it has to be it has to be him but obviously saibari like morocco are really good for this aren't they in the recent in the recent era yeah they're so good for it um so sad to see him miss out but i think it's got to be baligan okay i baligan and baligan and uh tarik muharimovic meeting up at meetup day when this squad gets finally announced you good you good but baligan also has the the element of someone inevitably is going to pay 60 million quid for him in the premier league and he will be shit he will score like seven goals over two seasons or something it was so close to happening he was so on that trajectory as well like premier league club's going oh maybe he could do a job no no he's the same as he was before figure it out to manage this team dave i feel like again we have to look slightly further back in this tournament and go for ecuador sebastian abeca chesse yes yeah the guy with the long hair yeah hugging his family hugging his family like claudio canigia a sort of budget website lookalike available for hire.

1:08:47Like Pat Cash. Who once again, when this actually happened, I made the mistake of going, oh, he's done a Pat Rafter. No, it's not Pat Rafter, it's Pat Cash. Come on, mate. Charlie's right.

1:08:59Nick Miller:Rafter never won Wimbledon. Famously. Right there. Did it at the US Open, did he? On the massive Arthur Ashe Stadium.

1:09:06Charlie Eccleshare:To recap our pure 2026 World Cup 11, I'm really happy with this one. It's Vizinha in goal. We're back for a Pico Lopez, Jed Spence, Tarek Muharremovic and Jarrell Kwanza. In midfield, Aya Boadi, Johan Manzambi and Leandro Paredes. Up front, Julian Quinonez, Kylian Mbappe and following Balogun. All led by Sebastian Bekechese, who we will never see again. Right. Incredible transfer story that broke just before the third place playoff, which was that Chelsea have signed or are about to sign, poised to sign Morgan Rodgers for 117 million, which is one million more, Charlie, than Manchester City will be signing Elliot Anderson for.

1:09:46Charlie Eccleshare:Lots of news articles saying that this fee will eclipse that of Elliot Anderson's. And then a lot of people writing in saying, is it an eclipsing? Because it's only 0.86 bigger. Well, surely it is an eclipsing then. All you've got to do is match it and then be a bit more. If anything, you just have to match it. So eclipsing works.

1:10:04Nick Miller:Yeah, I mean, and it certainly has become that in football speak. Eclipsing is just fine for, you know, it's just like a second mention word, isn't it? It's not smashing, is it?

1:10:12Charlie Eccleshare:Eclipsing, it sounds like a big word, Jake, but it really is just about, you know, edging out another big figure. Yeah, I do like the idea of Man City, though, kind of reacting churlishly to this. This is not eclipsed Elliot's achievement whatsoever. Issuing a statement. Yeah, this is very much still a big, big transfer. Yeah, I think it probably just about qualifies. I mean, I guess transfer negotiations, Dave, can be quite complex and they must be talking about all sorts of minor little details. But these numbers are so specific, it does look a little bit like Villa have just gone, give us a million more than Elliot Anderson and you've got a deal.

1:10:52Yeah, absolutely. It's too much of a coincidence to be anything other than that. it does have a feeling a similar feeling to what was the situation where who bid the Suarez plus one pound yeah the plus one pound yeah

1:11:10Charlie Eccleshare:why does it have to be an extra million though what are they smoking over there

1:11:13Nick Miller:yeah but this sort of thing does happen a lot of clubs will be like look if that's if that's the going rate then it's going to cost you more than that is it going to keep going are we going to get a 118 million pound signing this summer who would that be as an English player I mean, like, of that sort of level.

1:11:32Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know, Jarrell Quonson was quite impressive. Here's a classic piece of listener correspondence, Nick, that I had no idea what to do with, and it came too late anyway. Joseph Walker DMed me on Saturday night saying, how are we, Adam? Had a couple of pints at a wedding and just realised Chris Kavanagh is here, wondering if the pod has any burning questions that need answering. Even if I did see it in time. And then he did read his DM at this wedding. What are we asking him? are you annoyed that Darren can got the BBC gig don't know

1:12:00Nick Miller:well we had this didn't on the way back from one of the on the train on the way back from one of the live shows Chris Foy was very much on our train and we had this same debate ultimately we were like what are we going to say to him I hope you had a good time because Chris

1:12:19Charlie Eccleshare:Cavanaugh looks like a very serious man so I hope he let his hair down for at least one evening final couple of items for this for this adjudication banner before the summer really kicks in. This came from Jonathan Stretfield. Here's Tuffers on Test Match Special.

1:12:34Nick Miller:And 66 from the last four overs. Wow. Yeah, it's lovely when a plan comes together. You lay that platform, don't you? And then you come in, you've got a Joe Root, knocks it around at a really good rate as well. And you're just looking for your Brook or your battler coming and play that absolute cameo of a knock just to finish it off. And that's exactly what it's done.

1:12:55Charlie Eccleshare:lovely absoluting dave great delivery of the absoluting and a fine context for it too yeah yeah yeah tough as tough as his cameo i don't think we've ever had him on that on the absolute territory before but he's absolutely primed for it oh yeah yeah yeah perfect yeah i like it um finally i really enjoyed this jake it came from ali monk he says i just had a moment of football speak entering day-to-day life when looking in the dishwasher to see whether i should be setting it off. I said to my partner, not enough in it for me.

1:13:26Nick Miller:There's nothing in that. You've seen him given.

1:13:32That's wonderful, yeah. Not enough in it for me. Yeah, I think add a Clive in there and you're really rolling.

1:13:40Charlie Eccleshare:That's one of my favourites. After review.

1:13:43Nick Miller:After review.

1:13:44Charlie Eccleshare:On that note, oh, so many people to thank. Thanks to you, David Walker. Thank you. thanks to you charlie eccleshare thank you thanks to you nick miller thank you thanks to you jake farrell nice one thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on thursday see you then