Unexpected Clive Tyldesley noises & Gabriel's hypothetical Arsenal own-goal hell

21:31It says you have standards. You don't cut corners. And you like your Jägermeister shots the way they're meant to be enjoyed. Ice cold. As for the frozen taquitos and mystery leftovers, we'll keep that between us. Drink it cold, or don't drink it at all. Jägermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jägermeister liqueur 35 % alcohol by volume. Imported by Masked Jägermeister, U.S. White Plains, New York.

21:58Oh, look at that! That is wonderful.

22:30Charlie Eccleshare:dreamland.footballcliches.com for£5.99 a month. You'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes and two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show. And other things as well, including discounts on merchandise. Go to merch.footballcliches.com. Buy your loved ones, cliches listening loved ones, ideally, some cliches merch. We've got bundles available. Always nice to be able to say the word bundle, Dave. Yeah, and they are good bundles at that. Yeah. Free badges in your bundles and a free month of Dreamland in there as well. So go to merch.footballcliches.com. Some lovely stuff. Tastefully embroidered caps.

23:04Charlie Eccleshare:I've been the real runaway success of the merch range, Charlie. I'm pleasantly surprised I wasn't a capman. No, I'm not a capman myself, but it would be lovely to see so many at the live shows. At the post-show drinks, there'd be many a cap. And how? Intrigued to think about how people would go about wrapping a cap if it was a present for Christmas. I guess you'd put it in a box or something, wouldn't you? You could stuff it with paper to flesh out the shape, and then you could wrap it. but it'd be very obvious what it is. What's this? Oh, God. Anyway, right. Let's resume the adjudication panel duties with this from Luke Slater.

23:37Charlie Eccleshare:He says, I've happened across Undercover, The Fury, a BBC radio drama about an undercover policeman inside a football firm. It's not a bad listen by any means, but the name of one of the two football teams involved in the story was so jarring to be laughable. And then the firm itself, after a scuffle with a rival group, break out in a chart that starts off familiarly, but then tails off into total oddness. Let's hear it. has yet been arrested for the murder of Callum Matthews last Saturday. Matthews, who was 22, was stabbed over six times during violence prior to the Football League match between Rovers and Athletics.

24:11There are reports that Callum had links to the Rovers' Fury, the notorious football hooligan firm.

24:26Charlie Eccleshare:all right let's start with the first point you can't have the athletics that's mad because i was thinking at the start like it's fine in a way you're slightly between a rock and a hard place because you can't go for real names and so anything made up sounds a bit silly but rovers is sort of fine i think you accept that you're like it's a generic name we recognize it athletics is just no it's it's too much you just call me united or something just a recognizable suffix charlie summed up the dilemma ask charlie summed up the dilemma very well here dave on on one hand it is really clunky the names of these teams on the other because it's a bbc radio drama i feel like you can go just symbolic with the names and it would be all right and to a certain extent i prefer this to to a made-up english place name like you know, Panchester or something like that.

25:15Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know. It's ridiculous, isn't it? I regretted it the moment it came out. You think Panchester, Pan Pizza. Pan Pizza. But I think we can agree that athletics is an absolutely terrible shout for a team name here. Is this Panchester United football club? Panchester's, oh, I'm never going to be a little. Another one I'm not going to live down. Why can't my brain work better?

25:40Yeah, I agree with Charlie. There are so many generic staples you could draw from. To come up with the athletics is such... It's like a baseball team or something.

25:49Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, the Oakland Athletics. Yeah, it's strange. Why have they pluralised it? Absolutely bad. But then can we just listen again to the least threatening hooligan firm of all time, please?

26:05Charlie Eccleshare:They sound too young. They don't sound like they care about football in the slightest. They sound like drama students. I was going to say, it's like a bad school play. It does. It sounds like a student sort of protest march kind of thing. Too jaunty. Sparsely attended. Somebody rattling something in the background. Although someone at the end goes, do one. Yeah. It's quite a nice touch. Yeah, it's a little bit of hooligan flavoured seasoning in there. Is that the opposing firm? I don't know. I did like the detail stood out to me. Unfortunately for the person in question, they were stabbed over six times.

26:39so we have six confirmed stabbings but there might have been more

26:43Charlie Eccleshare:but we're not quite sure how many more gets the stab away anyway no let's not do all on that next up John Keough writes in and says he's been wrestling with the idea of famous old clubs he takes us through some examples Charlie Leeds versus Villa two famous old clubs Liverpool versus Arsenal not two famous old clubs Sheffield Wednesday Forest Leeds while in the championship famous old clubs Watford Norwich Southampton in the championship not famous old clubs It suggests there's a cut-off size for famous old clubs, which is around the Birmingham City, Sheffield United sort of mark. But when a club threatens to go out of business, the term gets used so much more frivolously.

27:17Charlie Eccleshare:Bury, Reading, Notts County, etc. So is it as complex as John suggests? Yeah, there's something in that. I mean, famous old clubs does lend itself to a kind of news report style situation or a kind of little featurette on Football Focus. So I could imagine, you know, Leeds Villa being like, but for these two famous old clubs, it's back in the big time this season or something like that. And obviously the famous old clubs in the, you're in, you know, in the Bury example or Reading, you're in the town wandering round, you know, having just Vox Pop fans about what this place means to the city and all of that.

27:53But for something like Arsenal-Liverpool, you never lead with that. There'd be way too much going on. And yeah, they've gone beyond. The fact that they're famous old clubs almost goes without saying. It's not the most important thing to reference it.

28:06Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, that's a good point. So it's not enough to be famous and old, Dave. You've got to have something happen to you that needs your fame and oldness evoked to embellish the story. I would say Arsenal have all the ingredients to be a famous old club. They are famed and old. Like there's a huge tradition to Arsenal and to be fair, Liverpool as well, but Arsenal have the marble halls and all that sort of stuff and Herbert Chapman. So they're a famous old club. I feel like they would be the most likely of the big six to have that evoked about them. Well, they are, but I mean, so are Manchester United.

28:36Charlie Eccleshare:I don't think of them as a famous old club, Manchester United, for some reason. But I think you say it when you've got nothing better to say about a team sometimes. times you don't need it's sort of taken as read but when you're talking about liverpool arsenal manchester united probably going to be talking about them something vital and in the moment about a big match or whatever's going on in their season whereas when you're talking about an everton who are famous old club everton are a famous old club i think they would get this a lot yeah when their relegation threatened i mean i i think the only way i could see arsenal famous old club being evoked is if they're on the cusp of the title this season and you've got a reporter are down wandering through the emirates and it is something like but for this famous old club they stand on the brink of history and invoking something like you know the club of herbert almost 100 years on from herbert chapman this famous old club stands on the great stands on the verge of greatness again start the package outside highbury exactly yeah exactly yeah with all these variables taken into account dave john asks again who's the biggest famous old club before it becomes too weird and obvious to say is it newcastle i'd quite like newcastle being in the equation here because, you know, they haven't won anything big in their new era to kind of move them out of the famous old club.

29:48Charlie Eccleshare:Everton, Everton, smack bang in the middle of this famous old club discourse and probably will be for a while yet. So Everton and Newcastle, I think, are at the upper limit, I would say, being able to just throw this in and it'd be okay. Villa? Villa, definitely. Forest? They are, aren't they? They're a famous old club. Clough and all that. Exactly, especially as like all of their, you know, their biggest glories all do come in, you know, in not the most recent history. I think that's why some of these other clubs you don't like. That's why Man United might seem not so famous old clubby because, yes, they have had historical successes, but their biggest successes have come in extremely recently in the sort of grand scheme of things.

30:25Charlie Eccleshare:Are Arsenal and Man United, Charlie, just grand old clubs? Because you don't need to call them famous. They're just grand old clubs. And that's I feel that's more versatile a phrase. You could use that anytime. This grand old club. Yeah, I still think it would sound a bit weird with them. Who's the smallest club that's a famous old club? Accrington Stanley? They're a famous old club. That's a good shout. Preston. Bradford Park Avenue. Yeah, Preston are definitely a famous old club. Yeah. There's loads of teams in the lower reaches of the league that can still cling on to that status quite easily.

30:54Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, all right, interesting. Pete Farrell sent this one in next. It's New England Patriots quarterback Drake May talking about his wife. It's been awesome. She's in her little journey doing bakemas right now. I get to do the good part of trying all the stuff she bakes. I try to bring some leftovers into the building, but she's a superstar. She's been a big addition for me being up here and living with me. It's such a sporty way of saying it. What an addition she's been. She's been like a new signing. Yeah, yeah. Since we got her in the building. We've joked about this before, Charlie, about someone having a kid and calling them an addition.

31:26Charlie Eccleshare:You know, they've settled in well and all that stuff. But that feels more logical because it's literally an addition. It's the new addition to your family. You can't call your wife a new addition. It's shocking. she's been a really important member become a really important member of the squad what a signing she's been surely it's a loan deal with a view to a permanent isn't it really I suppose is it like a new signing? not really no she's been there the whole time oh there's so much new signing did you see by the way James Madison referred to himself when he gets back from injury he said you know I might be like a new signing really?

31:58yeah I don't think I've ever heard a player describe themselves we need to we should have made more of that

32:04Charlie Eccleshare:we should have got that clip yeah but doesn't quite surprise Reminds me that Madison came out with it. I feel like he can carry it off, Charlie, actually, now I think about it. Yeah, if anyone's saying it, it makes sense. Can we talk about Madison, actually? Because we predicted that he would get a lot of plaudits for his Monday night football appearance. And it wasn't bad, but I don't think it quite lived up to expectations. And I think partly because of the Salah thing. It was massively overshadowed by Cara's rant on Salah. And which was notable that Madison did not get asked about it, was not on screen.

32:35I do wonder whether that was something preordained by the clubs or whatever, but he didn't leave it all out there. I know what you mean, because I bigged him up, because I think he is generally a really good talker. And I think there were some good bits, but yeah, maybe didn't quite... Flashes fire. Flashes of genius were there, were they? Yeah, there were moments, but faded later on.

32:54Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, you told me about the fact that Madison had no part in the Salah debate, such as there was one, between the three of them. And so he wasn't in shot. He wasn't called upon in the discussion at all. But Carragher was addressing both of them with his eyes. And I thought, what's Madison sort of doing while he's being looked at by Carragher as he goes on this rant? But he's a bit like, yeah, just recusing himself from the debate, which I guess would have been fine. But yeah, I suspect some words were had beforehand about, yeah, don't ask me about this. Yeah, I'm not going to talk about a fellow professional.

33:24Charlie Eccleshare:Philip Edwards writes in next day. He says, I live on a one-way street, supposedly. is one-way traffic used no matter what the scoreline is or does it lose its impetus once the game has been put to bed this is an interesting one when when is one-way traffic most pertinent in the game to be said when i think it's when a team's chasing a game like they need a goal or the game's still nil nil be very strange to say at two nil or three nil right yeah well i think it still it would need to be i think you'd remark on it if it was early on and a team was getting maybe goals might not be going in but one team is absolutely hammering the other in terms of chances and it's all one-way traffic here surely it's only a matter of time I think Charlie I think the ultimate soccer Saturday scenario for this would be big team 2-0 down they've got one back and now it's one-way traffic it's all Tottenham at the moment it's so soccer Saturday isn't it it's one-way traffic here Jeff yeah I do think of it as an early thing I think 0-0 definitely could be I do also think it could be a you know a team has surprisingly gone 1-0 up and it remains one way traffic so like you're really emphasising the point that they've absolutely dominated these early exchanges there's been no change you know there's been no let up despite the fact they got that early goal.

34:40Charlie Eccleshare:But you would never encourage it for a big team who are like 3-0 up and essentially strolling it but still pouring forward in search of more but that's not one way traffic is it? There's no point in saying it is there? No. No I agree thanks to Philip Edwards for that one Keith Riley has a hypothetical scenario about consecutive things happening that I was convinced we'd done before but I can't believe we haven't, Dave. He asks, how many consecutive own goals would a player need to score to be permanently dropped by their team? In this scenario, the rest of their game is as good as ever but the ball just simply keeps going in off them.

35:11Charlie Eccleshare:So it's purely accidental. He's picked a really good sort of case study for this. If you took Arsenal's Gabriel as an example how many games could he score one own goal each in before he never plays for Arsenal again? And then what happens to him after that? This is great. So Charlie says he's out injured now, but let's say he scores an own goal against Wolves this weekend. They win 4-1, nobody cares. He scores another against Everton, but they win again. But now it's slightly odd. Then he scores another against Palace and the stats come out. Now it's a thing people are talking about. And that's absolutely right.

35:41Charlie Eccleshare:Surely he's getting benched after the next two or three. If he racked up 10 to 15 by the end of the season, would they sell him? I mean, let's ignore the extreme situation for now. I completely agree with the threshold here, Charlie. he could get away with two consecutive games with own goals, whether Arsenal win or not. If he scores a third, an athletic piece is coming out. Like, what's going on? Has anyone got a number for Frank Sinclair? Yeah, what's eating, Gabriel? I think it goes beyond what's eating. That's a kind of more low-level. I would love it if it was in what's eating. What's eating, Gabriel?

36:14Why does he keep scoring own goals? This is odd. Okay, well, I'm just looking at Arsenal's games. They've got Wolves on the weekend. And yeah, then Everton.

36:22Charlie Eccleshare:Fascinating you're looking at the opponents here for the answer. Well, I'm just getting a sense of it. I mean, yeah, definitely can get away with those two, even three. You think three in a row? Yeah, because he's that good. He's that good. And also he does score at the other end. So there's a chance he might in one of those games have scored. And then you're saying like, oh, what a weird quirk. Gabriel with a goal and an own goal. I love that you're bringing these extra things into it. But I want to pause on this, though, because I've suggested to Charlie, Dave, that, you know, Gabriel, something would have to be done after the third.

36:50Charlie Eccleshare:Two is complete occupational hazard. After a third, it's a problem. Like something technically has gone wrong. But the problem is, not only because this is a completely unprecedented situation, but could you drop a player for scoring own goals? I mean, at one point it's going to become, you know, you're harming the team, but it's something that probably could be fixed. But you can't drop a player for scoring own goals, but otherwise be in good form. It would be absolutely bizarre. Take him out the firing line. I mean, what is it? It is a take him out the firing line situation. I think it does depend on the nature of the own goals.

37:22If they are all genuinely really unlucky and they're sort of deflections, but even if they were, I think at some point you'd get someone like Carragher going, yeah, well, you know, once or twice, fine. But if it keeps happening again, you're doing something wrong. Your technique's all off there. The body position's all wrong.

37:39Charlie Eccleshare:Right. Yeah. I want to clarify this, even though Keith Riley hasn't, Charlie, we're not talking about shots that were going off target and went in off the defender and therefore were classified as own goals. We're talking about a deliberate attempt to play the ball, even if it's a slide, a foot stuck out, anything, an attempt to divert the ball but accidentally turning it into your own net. At some point you'd get a big spot-fixing inquiry, wouldn't you? Do you think it would be a thing? Do you think suspicions would be raised? At what point would suspicions be raised? After the fourth? I mean...

38:07Charlie Eccleshare:Fourth in a row? But the suspicions would be so blatant. It's not like spot-fixing. It's not like picking up some innocuous yellows that then gets investigated, like scoring own goals. And like how much someone who earns as much as he does would have to be getting paid to do this. It would be so awkward the moment that, you know, sensible reporters who feel like they have a job to do would start looking into it, Charlie, and thinking, do we have to raise this question, slightly taboo question, of is he doing it deliberately to win a bet? Yeah. I mean, I mentioned Frank Sinclair. At the start of the 1990-2000 season, he scored a last-minute own goal winner for Arsenal.

38:45He was playing for Leicester, so to lose his team the game. And then the third game of the season, he scores a 90-minute own goal to give Chelsea a point against Leicester. I mean, it was like absolute catastrophe. And he was, you know, asked about it, interview being like, what's going on here? So I think he, Gabriel's getting, certainly even after the third game, I think Arteta's coming out and saying, look, he's been one of the best defenders in Europe for the last five and a half years. You don't just drop a player because of a few misfortunes. Oh, okay.

39:13Charlie Eccleshare:So the reaction ramps up, but nothing would be done. Okay. Certainly after three. Arteta would back him. Four is taking him out the firing line, though, surely. Four in a row. Yeah, quite possibly. I mean, if they're proper, like, comedy-owned goals, then I think you kind of have to. And then once you then bring him back in, thinking, okay, we've taken him out the firing line, but he comes back in and keeps doing it, then you've got a real problem. That would be squizzit, that moment, when it comes back in and he does it again. He's done it again. The opposition fans would be that every time the ball and anywhere near him would be going, oh.

39:47And the montage of his sort of reactions to if you scored six or seven own goals, like what do you do? Like, how do you react? But it's so funny as well because in this hypothetical, he's still playing as he would be normally, which is like imperious.

40:02Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, this is the problem. Probably scoring the odd goal. Yeah. But just can't stop scoring own goals. Doesn't let it affect him. He's that mentally strong. Yeah, exactly. He's really able to compartmentalise. Someone will hold a Gabriel own goal of the month sort of competition as well. That would be funny. Some great content would come out of this. Serious and non-serious. I think this could be a great breath of fresh air for English football journalism. He'd probably end up scoring more own goals than a single team had scored or something. Yeah, wolves are in trouble. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, God knows.

40:33Charlie Eccleshare:I have no idea what would happen to him ultimately, Keith Riley, but I'm really glad you raised it. I want to end the final midweek adjudication panel of the year with a bonus. Keys and Grey Corner.

41:02Charlie Eccleshare:It's been a strong December for Keysy's blog so far. I want to take you back to December the 1st, Charlie. Kesey's in real kind of quick-fire round-up mode on his blogs at the moment. Obviously, he'll tackle the big issues like Salah, but he really loves going around the grounds. And some of these sort of observations just get hidden away between paragraphs. You've got a big paragraph about Villa or Emery or whatever, then a big paragraph about Chelsea or something, and then snuck in between, we've got, what about that stadium Birmingham've got plans for? Think again, guys. It's awful. Just laying down his judgment.

41:37Charlie Eccleshare:it's great it's awful think again guys is it b ham that he's written as well yeah yeah yeah pointless abbreviations in his blog just to get it out before he goes into the studio presumably and he writes it so loosely it's so weird no i mean that's always those just elite non-secretaries is what's always set him apart he writes it as if he knows they're reading it as well yeah yeah yeah i love that addressing them directly a week later dave sandwich between a paragraph about var our decisions and West Ham cancelling their Christmas party is simply a line, goodbye Eve Bersouma, idiot, but he's not alone.

42:14Oh really?

42:15Charlie Eccleshare:They need more context there. You've got to tell us what you mean. What is he on? He's not alone in being an idiot? He's not the only one leaving? I think he's talking about the balloon inhalation epidemic amongst footballers in the UK. Yeah, I think that's his point. Idiot. that's it one line will do that'll do finally Shorty Rito writes in Charlie and says I was watching B in Sports and just before the second half of the City game Key says that he and Andy can't complain about the innovation of a half-time show at the World Cup because we started it Andy we did that's so good yeah they did they wrote the book he's basically got full ownership of Qatar now I feel like he is the new Emir of Qatar the last few weeks Dave has seen him really kind of inherit Qatar as his own thing and he being part of their development.

43:07Charlie Eccleshare:I'm sure why he's been doing that more. The rhetoric ramped up. Was he not referring to the early days of Sky Sports Premier League coverage with the big sumo men on the pitch? Oh, right! I thought he meant Qatar pioneered half-time shows. Oh, I see! Yeah, I think he's getting at all those mad half-time... I mean, they were more pre-game, weren't they, than half-time? But I wouldn't be surprised if he's conflated those two things. Sky strikers. Yeah, he doesn't need much encouragement to talk about the good old days. anyway tremendous stuff thanks to you Charlie Eccleshire have a lovely birthday thank you thanks to you David Walker thank you thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on Tuesday see you then

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