In short
Football Clichés midweek adjudication panel covers: Champions League match ball branding (Nike taking over from Adidas; Adidas star-shaped ball design trademarked); Carlos Queiroz appointed head coach of Ghana for the World Cup; a Liverpool vs Fulham goal where Lee Hendry appears to “talk himself through” Rio Ngomoa’s finish; and a long-running mystery of a Stevenage Borough 1997-98 home match being used in US crime drama Southland. They also discuss gaps in the Premier League archive (missing early Arsenal-Norwich 1993 game; missing Middlesbrough-Tottenham 1993 goal; Smicer’s 2003 equaliser only captured via CCTV during a power cut).
Notable examples
Ngomoa’s CCTV-like goal description; Smicer equaliser caught by emergency CCTV.
Guests
Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker (panelists).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VONike Takes Over Champions League Match Ball
2:36 to 3:01
Discussion on Nike assuming the Champions League match ball contract from Adidas.
The Iconic Champions League Ball Design
3:01 to 3:37
Exploring the significance of the iconic star-shaped design of the Champions League ball.
“despite that being the Champions League logo.”
Changing Trends in Match Ball Designs
3:37 to 4:19
Discussion on the evolution of match ball designs and Nike's potential return to minimalism.
“So maybe Nike, maybe it's time for Nike to come in and clean things up.”
Carlos Queiroz Appointed Head Coach of Ghana
4:19 to 5:10
Analysis of Carlos Queiroz's appointment as head coach of Ghana ahead of the World Cup.
“I fear that they might do that for some retro purposes.”
Queiroz's Managerial Journey and Style
5:10 to 6:12
Discussing Queiroz's background and the appeal of tournament-based managerial roles.
“They just thought, well, it's a few months for the World Cup.”
The Nature of Firefighting in Football Management
6:12 to 7:29
Exploring the concept of 'firefighting' in football management and its nuances.
“But he was in charge of Iran at the 2022 World Cup when England beat them.”
Unique Commentary Moments in Football
7:29 to 8:15
Discussion of a unique commentary situation during a Liverpool match featuring Lee Hendry.
Investigating a Stevenage Game Clip
8:15 to 12:00
A narrative about identifying a football game featured in a TV show clip related to Stevenage.
“And he enjoyed Hendry essentially instructing himself how to co-commentate on Rio Ngomoa's goal.”
Frustration with Premier League Archives
12:00 to 14:01
Charlie and Dave discuss missing footage from Premier League archives and its implications.
“But I mean, what are Steven Hitchborough doing on this programme?”
Premier League Archive Anomalies
14:01 to 18:15
Explore the gaps and peculiarities in the Premier League archive, including missing goals and commentary.
“So I was thinking that maybe, yeah, there was some reason why the footage was lost or it wasn't filmed or whatever.”
Show all 22 chapters
CCTV Footage and Missing Goals
18:16 to 20:50
A discussion on how missing goals from the Premier League are sometimes captured by unconventional means like CCTV.
“In general, there is quite a sort of minimalist approach to that side of things.”
Happy Hunting Grounds Ladder Game
24:56 to 28:00
Engage in the Happy Hunting Grounds ladder game, testing football knowledge through goal scorer identification.
“but a reminder first that you can sign up for Dreamland for just£5.99 a month.”
Harry Kane's Hat-Trick and Southampton's Scorers
28:00 to 29:29
Discussion about recent football matches including Harry Kane's hat-trick and player scoring history.
“Who has scored for Southampton at the Vitality?”
Guessing Southampton Goalscorers
29:30 to 31:23
A back-and-forth guessing game on Southampton's prolific goalscorers during specific seasons.
“Was Sadio Mane at Southampton when Bournemouth had just come up or had he already gone to Liverpool?”
Wolves vs. Tottenham Scoring Questions
31:24 to 35:06
Analyzing scoring history between Wolves and Tottenham with a focus on specific players and seasons.
“And they were then there for three years.”
Charlton's Scoring Dilemmas
35:07 to 37:19
A lively discussion on Charlton's historical goal scorers, particularly Kevin Lisby.
“That was the Happy Hunting Grounds ladder.”
Refereeing Insights from Graham Scott
37:20 to 41:48
Former Premier League referee Graham Scott shares insights on refereeing and VAR challenges.
“But sometimes I get up in the twos and threes and that annoys me because I've only then had sort of four or five hours sleep or four hours sleep.”
England Women vs. Spain: Haunting Goals
41:49 to 42:01
Discussing England Women's recent match against Spain and the concept of haunting in football.
“It's like a really tiny thing, but it's like, I am a journalist.”
The Haunting Debate: Defining Football Hauntings
42:01 to 43:19
Explore the concept of haunting in football, particularly in relation to missed goals.
“England's women beat Spain 1-0 in a World Cup qualifier at Wembley on Tuesday night.”
Documentaries on Legendary Matches
43:20 to 44:39
Discussion on upcoming Netflix documentaries and the stories they tell about famous football matches.
“If she'd scored in the World Cup final then in the Euros, but she didn't.”
Keys and Grey Corner: Blog Insights
44:40 to 45:51
A look into Richard Keys' blog, discussing various football-related topics and opinions.
“No, it was The Miracle of Istanbul, we called it.”
Analysis of Recent Football Events
45:52 to 49:17
Reflecting on recent football events, including player performances and managerial decisions.
“A little hiatus for his blog, Charlie, which rang some alarm bells, but he's back.”
Transcript
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1:18Is Gascoigne going to have a crack? He is, you know. Oh, I say! Brilliant!
1:27He's ran the goalkeeper, he's done it! Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip. Oh, I say, it's amazing. He does it tame and tame and tame again. Crank up the music, charge a glass. This nation is going to dance all night.
2:22Charlie Eccleshare:This is Football Clichés.
2:30Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry. This is the midweek adjudication panel. Joining me first of all is Charlie Eccleshare. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Alongside you, David Walker. How are things? Things are good. Excellent. A great start to the Champions League action on Tuesday night, but overshadowed quite clearly by the news that Nike are going to assume the contract for the match ball of the Champions League from Adidas, taking Adidas' stranglehold away from them. And what I was surprised to learn, Charlie, is that Adidas have the trademarked, the star-shaped design of the ball, despite that being the Champions League logo.
3:09Charlie Eccleshare:So I thought to myself, well, what are we going to do without this iconic ball design? How iconic is it? I don't know if it's actually that inherent to the Champions League kind of vibe, actually. I heard people talking about this. Yeah, they'd really miss that if it was gone. I don't know how much I would. The matchboard designs, Dave, have gone a bit mental in the last few years. We've moved away from the sort of dignified star design to something absolutely insane over the last, you know, certainly the last seven or eight years in finals. So maybe Nike, maybe it's time for Nike to come in and clean things up.
3:40Yeah, so you've had the stars recently, but the stars have been the white bits of the ball. Yeah. And the rest of it's been a variety of different colours and patterns. Gaudy. Yeah, I think the most important thing with the ball is not how it looks static, but how it looks when in motion. And sometimes those designs recently don't give you the best look. But then I think if you go way back, Nike had the Champions League ball, didn't they, in the late 90s for a bit.
4:09Charlie Eccleshare:It was a bit of a mishmash in those early years because clubs were using their own balls in the group stages and things like that. But yeah, I'm not sure, Charlie, I want to go back to the minimalist Nike design of the late 90s. I fear that they might do that for some retro purposes. Do you remember, was it they had La Liga first and they did it in that sort of way? And I do remember that feeling really cool at the time that there was this kind of minimalist Nike ball. But yeah, whether that's what's needed at this point, I'm not sure. Because if you watch the 99 final, quite weird to look at that ball because there's just a single tick on it, isn't there?
4:39Again, in motion, it just looks like it's a plain white ball.
4:42Charlie Eccleshare:Takes the shine off the 99 final for me as a spectacle, that ball. English teams shouldn't be playing with balls like that. Should be playing with some nice Premier League balls. In other much less surprising news, Carlos Kiroz, Dave, has been appointed head coach of Ghana ahead of the World Cup. I mean, this is a marriage made in absolute football heaven, isn't it? I mean, the twain we're ever going to meet. It's perfect, isn't it? And so Garnett sacked their head coach recently. And do you think that he was the name at the top of their list? They just thought, well, it's a few months for the World Cup.
5:17Who are we going to go for? I mean, or has Kieros got in there himself? Has he just seen that there's a vacancy and his agent is straight on to them?
5:25Charlie Eccleshare:I don't think the negotiations would have taken much, much, really, Charlie. In a case of, come on, let's face it. This is going to happen, isn't it? We know this is happening. Yeah, I mean, rather than top the list, I wonder, would you be like, oh everyone's going to think we're going to do this let's try and be original let's try and do something else but then just like a magnet you cut you keep he's the guy you keep coming back to he rocks up and go look boromilatinovich is dead i'm afraid it's me or nothing i did i did have that thought i was like he's he's probably dead isn't he um but i mean it is incredible i mean it's his previous few jobs have been oman qatar iran egypt colombia iran and then portugal before that.
6:02What a spread. Crucial correction for me, Boromilicinovich is not dead. Oh, he's not dead? No. But no longer working.
6:10Charlie Eccleshare:No longer working, I think it's fair to say. Fair play. But he was in charge of Iran at the 2022 World Cup when England beat them. Was it 6-2 in the group stage? So he's got a chance to right that wrong in this tournament. What do you think appeals to managers, Charlie, to become kind of like a tournament-based international journey manager? Because he's Can we categorise this as firefighting? I think it's in the wider definition of. Is it? Because they're being brought in for a very specific job, and they're not necessarily putting out a fire, but they're being brought in as a steady hand. Yeah, it's more sort of steadying a ship, isn't it, than a very subtle difference between firefighting.
6:47But it's not like an emergency situation, I wouldn't say, that you're coming into necessarily. And then I imagine just generally, He does strike you as one of these quite sort of worldly, curious types. I imagine he speaks a number of languages. So he's always had that kind of like quite hard to place. I remember like when he was at United, it was like he's from Mozambique. It was like, wow, this is like incredibly unusual and quite exotic. He's always felt like a bit of a kind of citizen of the world. Knows the continent. I guess it's almost like he's like a freelance coach, isn't he? He's like a consultant.
7:23He's experienced. He's been around the block. you know he's not going to be around forever but if you need a specific job doing for a few months or whatever just you know he he'll be there give him a call and he'll come in and he'll do the job for you yeah from his point of view uh the appeals like i mean this must be great like every tournament comes who can i get this time with the 48 team year is brilliant for him yeah i i sort of understand
7:48Charlie Eccleshare:your concerns now dave about calling it a firefighting job it's more like bringing in a manager to get you promoted from the championship isn't it it's like he knows the drill he wants you to push them upwards he's not saving you from plummeting anywhere because you're already at the world cup so Ghana aren't in crisis in that sense I suppose but I mean has any has a club ever brought in someone to get them up in the playoffs just just for that job I don't think they have what a move that would be yeah well yeah good to have him around a world cup wouldn't be the same without him I imagine um let's move on Will Conroy was watching Liverpool versus Fulham on Sky on Saturday, Lee Hendry on co-coms.
8:22Charlie Eccleshare:And he enjoyed Hendry essentially instructing himself how to co-commentate on Rio Ngomoa's goal. Oh, this is outstanding from Ngomoa. And this is a quality that can go either side, but talk me through that finish. I mean, it's absolutely beautiful. The step over, the check back, then uses the defenders to just whip it in that far corner. Leno absolutely no chance. I can't figure out what's happened here, Charlie. Is it kind of like a meta Andy Gray situation where he's basically having a pretend conversation with himself to talk us through the goal? Or is it kind of a slight mismatch of just talk about a finish?
9:03Yeah, exactly. That's what I think it might be. It's like, and you talk about a finish or like, and then you talk about, can he finish or that kind of thing? Or is it, or he's sort of just so used to someone saying those words to him? Or Dave, you'll know better than me, but is it possible there's a producer in the ear there saying like, and talk about the finish? And then he's sort of like echoing that in real time. He's done a bit of a Ron Burgundy thing. Now talk me through the finish. Talk me through the finish. I think, yeah, it's talk about a finish. It's in that vein, isn't it? But I wonder, I don't know who the commentator was alongside him on that game, but did they momentarily sort of bolt up and go, no, I can't talk you through the finish.
9:47That's your job.
9:48Charlie Eccleshare:A quick role reversal that nobody was prepared for. But yeah, just a lovely little touch, really. Now, my Tuesday morning was somewhat occupied, unexpectedly, by someone sending me a clip from LA-based crime drama Southland 2009. Southland. Is it really? No, I don't know.
10:09Charlie Eccleshare:And so a cop has to go into this house and tell a kid that his mother has been killed, but he has to turn off the TV first. And the game is showing, Dave, a Stevenage Borough home game from 1997-98. Amazing. And I spent the entire Tuesday morning conversing with you and Colin about how the hell we're going to find out what game this was. And I was delighted we got to Stevenage. We based it on the advertising hoardings for the Stevenage Comet newspaper and the Fujitsu-owned technology company ICL. Yeah, it was great that you extended the invitation for us to try and help you out. It's like Sherlock Holmes getting all his network of people across London to help him on a particularly tricky case.
10:52I hope he gets annoyed as I do when he has to extend that web. Yeah, I was quite, I mean, it was an insight into your process, that's for sure. And there was a couple of little telltale things. There was like a weird kind of building at the back of the stand with what looked like maybe a clock or some sort of logo onto it, which helped us. One of my initial instincts was that it could be Stevenage. But I was surprised to learn out there actually was in the end because Stevenage Borough in the 90s, when were they on TV? The footage for those games must be pretty scarce.
11:24Charlie Eccleshare:Well, they had that cup run, didn't they, Charlie? And they played Newcastle in 97, 98. So they were in people's consciousness. But most of my research was dedicated to the other team in the picture who were wearing sort of black and gold striped socks. I simply do not want to make publicly clear how long I spent Googling teams who had black and gold striped socks in the mid to late 1990s. It was amazing because I was on a call and then came off it and just saw this incredible flurry of messages breaking it down. and some of the, I mean, you realise the lengths one has to go to to solve these mysteries.
12:00Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I really got in the zone, Dave. But I mean, what are Steven Hitchborough doing on this programme? I mean, I really hope it's like a producer, an expat producer who just wanted to get a little classy touch in. That would be nice. But we haven't pinned down the exact game yet, have we? Because, again, because of the footage. And I was looking at old kit websites where they, you know, and some of those, like when you're getting down into non-league in the 90s, this pretty patchy they don't have the full records it looks like it's a pre-season game it looks quite bright and sunny and non-league pre-seasons again not documented anywhere annoying why isn't that a thing it's hard to quantify the level of my frustration when i found the stevenage borough 1996-97 season review on youtube in full watched all of that decided that none of those games match and then they didn't have the 97-98 season review online why wouldn't you have what is basically one of the greatest Stevenage Borough seasons online.
12:55Charlie Eccleshare:For God's sake. They want to protect the VHS sales of that memorable season. So, you know, haven't put it on yet. We have some Twitter-based Stevenage archivists on the case. They're searching through the physical photographs that they own to figure out what game this is. They think it might be a pre-season friendly as well. But it is one of the weirdest, most incongruous uses of a football game on a US TV programme I've ever seen. But yeah, that one will run and run. speaking of nostalgic video footage our fascination continues with the Premier League archive Joe Poole writes in First Charlie he says after your conversation about where someone should start with the Premier League archives I decided to go to the only option a 0-0 draw between Arsenal and Norwich on October the 30th 1993 my first ever game at Highbury and a game in a series of four consecutive 0-0 draws for Arsenal the only problem is it doesn't exist the game is not on the archive how can they have let this happen really yeah Yeah, it's not on there.
13:50Charlie Eccleshare:And do we know why? I have no idea why. I mean, the highlights are on YouTube, so the footage is out there. It's quite an entertaining game. Arsenal hit the woodwork a few times, Dave. But what are the Premier League playing at? Who's in charge of this? Head should roll again. Yeah, OK. So I was thinking that maybe, yeah, there was some reason why the footage was lost or it wasn't filmed or whatever. Maybe they hadn't got their act together in the early seasons. But, yeah, maybe it's just an oversight. I mean, there's a hell of a lot of games for them to upload. Whoever is in charge of this archive, it's a vast library.
14:21So I guess it's possible that one or two things could have slipped through. Charlie, you're deep into it now, though.
14:27Charlie Eccleshare:You're hooked, right? Yeah, I have started. I do think it is quite a strange thing, though, because you are so spoilt for choice, and there's no sort of thread or through line a lot of the time. It's not like watching an old season review or something where you're like, okay, I'm going to be transported back into the year 2004 or whatever it is, and like go from there. It's very sort of random. I mean, I started with the 2007 Portsmouth Reading 7-4 because that's actually one of the kind of advertised games, you know, that watch the highest scoring Premier League fixture. And it's also like peak Barclays sort of time.
15:05And I did enjoy that. I mean, one thing that watching quite a few games from then and from, well, any time really, is how many offside goals there are and things like that. Absolutely. And even in that game, there's a goal, I think it's Papaboub Diop, scored a header that's miles onside, as it turns out, is given off. And there's a great one of those commentators going like, well, they hold such a good defensive line, don't they? Yeah, that's what they do. That's what they're about. And then the replay shows they've got it completely wrong and it should be given. And he completely refuses to acknowledge that.
15:36It is absolutely textbook of that genre, which I think probably happened even more then, but sort of in a pre-VAR period. but you know it is really good yeah i just do sometimes you're a bit like where do i go there's there's what what year do i feel like right now it's like doing an ocado shop dave there's just
15:54Charlie Eccleshare:too much choice you've got m &s stuff you've got ocado own branded stuff it's too much yeah you sent me a food voucher very generously didn't you for when when the baby was born i still haven't cashed it in because there's too there's too many things to choose from from the catalog that's the problem with vouchers you feel like you can't waste it you've got the right choice If it's your own money, you feel like you can be a little bit more. There's more margin for error, but it's somebody else's voucher. I feel your pain. I really do. There are other gaps in the Premier League archive, though, Dave.
16:21Charlie Eccleshare:The first one, very understandable, is Middlesbrough's 3-0 win over Tottenham in 1993. The first goal by Tommy Wright was missed because the cameraman wasn't at his station in time after two minutes. Wow, come on, lads. I mean, obviously that's tin pot, but the logic is clear there, right? So would we let them off for this one, do you think? Well, yeah. If it doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. Yeah, the footage literally does not exist. There's nowhere they can get it from. Was there anyone in the ground with a camcorder or something? I don't know. Probably not in 1973. So on match the day that night, they would have just had to be like, yeah, sorry, we don't have the first goal or just fudged it somehow.
17:02Charlie Eccleshare:I reckon they would have done that. The first goal was a little bit too quick for our cameraman, unfortunately. Even our cameraman was caught out. Yeah, so that's understandable. But this is a fascinating story. The only other goal that we know of that is not on the Premier League archive was Vladimir Smica equalising for Liverpool at Manchester City in December 2003. And it was because of a power cut at what was then the city of Manchester Stadium, which meant all the cameras weren't working. And the only camera that did catch was a CCTV camera at the other end of the stadium, which obviously had its own emergency backup power, presumably.
17:38yeah so the fun guys didn't go or was it like a was this a afternoon sort of it must have been a
17:43Charlie Eccleshare:broadcast power cut i assume and um so yeah only the cctv footage from the other end of the stadium caught it and it's like it's like stolen footage it's like watching the zapruder film of the jfk or something it's like what's going on here but you probably can't use that because it's just obviously too ridiculous to put it in yeah imagine if it just they've sort of patched it in just in middle of the highlights, you switch to CCTV. The only thing, I mean, I can understand why these little wrinkles occur in the kind of footage, Charlie, but they make no acknowledgement of the fact that goals are missing.
18:13Charlie Eccleshare:They just skip ahead and they don't tell you what the score is. This is rubbish. In general, there is quite a sort of minimalist approach to that side of things. Like you don't, like watching that 7-4 game, because the scoreline doesn't come up, you are a little bit sort of, there are times where you're a bit like, where are we again? Like, when is this? They really add nothing. it's just here's the footage watch it and there's no scores on the on like the what do you call it like you know a lot of the descriptions the captions underneath the games mad so you don't know what any score is unless you can specifically remember what game the score was in each game you're just picking and i mean is it can they not be bothered to do it or are they trying to leave us in suspense that you can go in and watch the action unfold yeah yeah i reckon they got halfway through the archive realized they hadn't put the scores in went oh fuck it can't do it now yeah but I've got a background in broadcast metadata.
19:03Charlie Eccleshare:I'll go back and put the scores in. Charlie, are you up for it? I mean, that sounds like a great way to spend a few days. We'll book a cottage. You'll get all of us. Colin, you can come as well. Charlie's just guessing them, is he, from the corner of the room? I think I was 3-2. Or was that one the season before? I'm not sure. I remember where I was when that happened. Yeah, tremendous. Finally on the PL Archive, Nick Elliott writes in. He says, I was tempted to check out the PL Archive. I don't know why, but I randomly selected Liverpool versus Coventry from 98-99. There's weirdly no commentary, but that means you can hear the players really clearly.
19:36Charlie Eccleshare:Inside a minute, I was delighted to hear Brad Friedel shout this to Jamie Carragher while lining up a free kick. I watched six minutes after this and got bored.
Read the full transcript
20:04Charlie Eccleshare:that's the insight we want dave that's superb that's great cara can't see fuck all it's almost graham taylor-esque documentary levels of discourse just sort of bleeding into our football footage or what yeah watching football during lockdown and yeah when you could hear everything that reminds me actually in that portsmouth um reading game well one of the reading goal scores you can hear a very audible like effing hell i'm not sure i i don't know if it's from a fan or from like a coach or something like that but yeah again it's very audible lovely little glimpses of the unpolished premier league era this is like the beatles anthology they've just chucked up everything unedited all the outtakes all the the demos the different versions it's great it's really relaxing watching these games without commentary you just you really just get to sit back and sort of bathe in it anyway uh this episode is brought to you in association with nordvpn for those who don't know vpn stands for virtual private network it secures your connection protecting your personal information and online activity especially on public wi-fi a vpn can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country which is great for accessing content while traveling over to the us we go this was from midfield runner and um uh nigel rio coca the latest in latest in the wave of slightly baffling middling Premier League players who've become pundits on US soccer TV.
21:26Charlie Eccleshare:And he says Nigel Ryokoka has a lot to say on these whip around Galato show broadcasts in the US. And sometimes he inadvertently coins new mashups, such as this one for Shakhtar versus AZ Alkmaar in the Europa. That was absolutely fantastic. Really is. Moments to get you off the edge of your feet there. That was it. That's why we love the game of football there.
21:53Charlie Eccleshare:pundits have surprisingly often struggled dave with the concept of being out of your seat and off your feet and this one gets mixed up a lot but i suppose if you were on the edge of your feet be on your toes which i suppose is quite similar to the sort of phenomenon he's describing so maybe it's all right so he's sort of leaning forward you're kind of you're on your toes and then you jumped up yeah like a managerial phantom header don't they yeah yeah so maybe it does work I do love a cliche mashup if you want to try NordVPN for yourself go to nordvpn.com slash cliches and our link will also give you four extra months on the two year plan it's the best discount available there's no risk with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee and the link is also in our podcast description if you need it we'll be back very shortly
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24:54Charlie Eccleshare:Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is the midweek adjudication panel, but a reminder first that you can sign up for Dreamland for just£5.99 a month. For that, you'll get ad-free listening of all of our episodes, plus two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show. You'll also get access to the premium section of Happy Hunting Grounds. More on that in a moment. Dreamland episode 21. We've been delayed by the Easter school holidays. Always an issue for the parents among us. But Dreamland continues apace very soon. We're recording episode 21 about the most important journalist in football.
25:27Charlie Eccleshare:And there are also plans for a live Happy Hunting Grounds on our Discord this Saturday morning around 10 a.m. I'll finalise the details. But I will be hosting a live Happy Hunting Grounds, a little bit like the Twitter spaces, but hopefully much more smoother process of getting people involved. So if you're on the Discord or if you're not, sign up to Dreamland at dreamland.footballcliches.com and you'll have access to join the fun on Saturday morning. Right. On that note, it's time for the Happy Hunting Grounds ladder. Dave and Charlie, you know the drill. We have to go from level one to level 10.
26:00when we launched the discord quickly when Charlie first logged on to the discord on the first day we all noticed that he'd gone straight into the live voice channel for Happy Hunting Grounds oh fair play Charlie's getting stuck in off the bat isn't he?
26:16Charlie Eccleshare:I know fair play to him it was very much an error and then you know I felt about a million years old when you're new to a new platform I was like fuck how do I get out of it? I made the exact same mistake on the libero discord last night i was hosting my own little audio event i didn't know how to turn it off it was awful this is not my place i don't know anything about the bigger picture of european football right um this is the happy hunting grounds ladder we are going to try and go from level one to level 10 if we only get the goal scorer right we stay where we are if we get both elements wrong we're out of the game so i think level six is as far as we've got so far?
26:55Charlie Eccleshare:I could be wrong. Or seven? I think we got two or seven. Yeah, maybe you're right. Okay, level one then. Tottenham Hotspur at Upton Park. Bale? Yeah, or Stalterio 607. We've got options. Or just Bale 12-13. Let's do Stalterio 607. Okay, so Stalterio 607 then. Adventurous choice. Why not? Yes. West Ham three, Tottenham four, goal scorers Jermaine Defoe, Timo Taigno, Dimitar Berbatov, and in the 95th minute Paul Stalterry excellent right level two here we go who has scored for Newcastle at the Reebok Charlie when Allardyce moved to Newcastle did they play Bolton early on in the season yes they did first day and Oberfemi Martins I'm pretty certain oh scored in that game Martin Z yes yeah wow that's a great so that would have been 07 08 we happy with that Dave Oberfemi Martins 07-08 we are not thinking about it anymore we're going straight in 07-08 Bolton 1 Newcastle 3 goal scorers Charles and Zogbia and at the double in the space of just 6 minutes in the first half Oberfemi Martins it's a tricky start for us that's liquid happy hunting grounding yeah a vibe a feeling and then just just rubber stamped it's just a really aggressive nod from a colleague halfway through your suggestion is what you want right level three who's scored for tottenham at turf moore charlie you must have done that for the athletic yes well this wasn't a game i was at uh one of the times i went famously it was snowed off but you don't need that detail harry kane scored a hat-trick there uh just before christmas in the 17-18 season happy with this dave yeah let's go with the hat-trick 17-18 Bernie Nill, Tottenham 3.
28:46Charlie Eccleshare:At the treble, Harry Kane. Simple. Right, level 4. Halfway to a new record. Who has scored for Southampton at the Vitality? Okay. South Coast. Tricky that one. Dust up. Doesn't feel very Ward-Prowsey. Doesn't feel like a very free-kicky stadium, Dave. So, when doing the ladder now, so I've been doing so much Happy Hunting Grounds Turbo there are quite a lot of names that I'm sure have scored but it's just the year you know I get lost on the years quite easily now who's jumping out for you for Southampton but that said I don't know if this one has come up much I at the moment if it's a recent ish Southampton if it's like a mid sort of post-potch era Southampton I've been tending to go for Shane Long quite a bit lately but he's not prolific so it's hit and miss Ward Prowse is obviously not prolific but he's a consistent scorer of the free kicks Danny Ings is who I'm thinking as the kind of closest thing they had to a prolific striker for a bit and like 19-20 Bournemouth went down so it stands to reason they would have conceded a fair few goals at home that season so that would be my guess would be Ings 1920.
30:08Charlie Eccleshare:Was Sadio Mane at Southampton when Bournemouth had just come up or had he already gone to Liverpool? He would have been. They came up 15-16 didn't they? Yeah he was still there 15-16 because he joined Liverpool for the 16-17 season. Right okay so I think Ings or Mane sound like the shouts to me. I don't think this is the place to play the Ward-Prowse card Dave personally so you can make the call. I prefer Mane, just for the fun of it, to be honest. Okay. 1516, Mane? Danny Ings, 1920. Bournemouth are such a funny team. Yeah, really are. You forget that they went down as well on that season. They're a complete spanner in the Happy Hunting Grounds works, Bournemouth, I think.
30:48Charlie Eccleshare:Anyway, go on, Dave. Make the call. I'm actually going to, as much as I would love it to be, Sadio Mane, I can't take looking at Charlie's face if we get it wrong and it's Ings. So we're going to have to go for Ings. Ings, 1920, did you say? Okay. Bournemouth, nil. Southampton 2 Goal scorer is Shea Adams Could have had him And after 41 minutes Danny Ings Yes I can tell you that Southampton didn't score At the Vitality in 15-16 So Mane would have been wrong And he didn't score there Of course Elsewhere So Level 5 we go Great work so far Who scored for Wolves At White Hart Lane Come on Charlie Wolves are tricky Before my covering time and it's so what was the season was it 0-2-0-3 Wolves were up in the Premier League 0-3-0-4 0-3-0-4 yeah yeah Kenny Miller Stephen Fletcher yeah Fletcher yeah he might he might have done or Matt Jarvis in that era from sort of like don't mind it 2010 to 2011 kind of period I think him or Fletcher oh yeah they were back in when did they come back up they came back up for the 0-9-10 season.
32:03And they were then there for three years. Some, you know, during which they were decent in those first two seasons before they got relegated. So like a 10-11 Fletcher or Jarvis. I quite like Fletcher. Who's that midfielder they had the first time round? Colin Cameron? Colin Cameron, yeah. I mean, again, he probably scored like four goals or something, but it's possible.
32:27Charlie Eccleshare:Quick sanity check, Charlie. Did Raul Jimenez play for Wolves at White Hart Lane or would it have been at the new stadium? No, they were at Wembley. Oh, of course. I was thinking that because Wolves did beat Spurs at Wembley in December 2018. Jimenez may have scored in that game. Well, in that case, I think we'll go for Stephen Fletcher. And what year, Charlie? I think 10-11 makes the most sense. That's when they were possibly better, either then or 9-10. But 9-10, they were crap for a period and then got good. So either of those, but maybe 10-11 is safer. I don't know. Hmm. Jarvis has got happy hunting grounds pedigree.
33:07On one of the first games we played on the pod, I pulled out Matt Jarvis. I think I nearly... Did I win? Did I beat Charlie with a Matt Jarvis?
33:16Charlie Eccleshare:I don't know. Maybe Jarvis cross Fletcher nodded header at the back post. Who knows? Let's go for Fletcher. And what season was it? 10-11. Fletcher, 10-11. Tottenham three, Wolves one. Goal scorer on the cusp of half-time Stephen Fletcher Oh yes Not only that He scored again the next season as well Wow It really was a happy hunting round for him Oh lovely stuff Colin Cameron ever scored there? No afraid not Alex Ray though did So another Scotsman Right level 6 Tantalising close But it's been a tricky one so far Can't believe we've got this far already Who scored for Charlton at Molyneux? Kevin Lisby.
34:04So that was the season. Streaky Kevin Lisby. That could be 03-04 would be the only season. I think they would have overlapped. Lisby. Bartholomew? Yeah, or Bartholomew. I think that was season. Or Ewell. I think Lisby, that was season he got the hat-trick against Liverpool, possibly. It was quite streaky though, Lisby.
34:22Charlie Eccleshare:Didn't score a lot. Klaus Jensen. Yeah. This is going to turn out to be a brutal six, I think. I want to say Lisby because I met someone the other day who's his best mate. And this feels so serendipitous. I'm happy on that basis, Charlie. I really am. I mean, it just feels like I've got to do it. 3-4 Lisby, okay? Yeah. All right, here we go. Wolves nil. Charlton four. You will not believe this. You're not going to believe this. Goal scorers that day, Klaus Jensen. Oh, no. Jason Newell. Oh, no. And at the double, Sean Bartlett. Oh, no. I don't think anyone's been that tantalisingly wrong in Happy Hunting Grounds in their life.
35:06Charlie Eccleshare:We picked the only player.
35:11Charlie Eccleshare:That's astonishing. I just had to, you know, got to do it. I think you can't get closer. Wow. I don't mind. I don't mind at all. That's brilliant. Well done all of those lads. Yeah, fantastic stuff. That was the Happy Hunting Grounds ladder. If you want a taste of that action, And join us for Happy Hunting Grounds live on Discord on Saturday morning. Me, at least. Right. Next up, Anderson Farser writes in. He says, ever since listening to the pod, I can't ignore commentators listing things in threes to hedge their bets. On Gary Neville's most recent podcast, he literally can't just say one thing to make his already very easily understood point.
35:46And irrespective, that's the one thing that you've got to try and humanise this. These are young men that are 21, 22, 23, 24 years of age. and they're seeing all this and five, six, seven years ago they were playing in a school park or they were playing with their kids teams or in their youth teams and they're in the biggest games and they're getting put under sort of real sort of scrutiny and that's the pressure you sort of sign up to that's why you get paid the big bucks lads that's why we are where we are you get criticised because that's you're playing for City you're playing for Arsenal you're playing for Liverpool you're playing for United in the biggest matches if you don't rock up and don't turn up and don't deliver you're going to get hit and you're going to get whacked and you're going to get criticised.
36:27So that's what we sign up to. But the reality of it is...
36:30Charlie Eccleshare:Absolute synonym central there, Dave. I really enjoyed the three ways of arriving at a football game, though. If you don't rock up, you don't turn up and you don't deliver. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I feel like they are subtle gradients going on there. Turn up, rocking up and then delivering, Charlie. I feel like they are subtly different in terms of the emphasis of your performance. they are different but rocking up is i would say rocking up is like the most casual like yeah you know just yeah you know you know rocked up fights are free yeah yeah exactly yeah you don't really hear it in that context do you dave i don't think they just haven't rocked up today we apologize fans we didn't rock up and you know ultimately as a professional you can't do that um i quite like neville sticking to his guns here dave because he basically dug himself into a pluralisation whole because he listed the ages and then had to reverse it for the amount of time since they've been at school which was you know pretty dexterous from the uh from their little man yeah it is classic saying autopilot probably does him a disservice like he's better than that but it's there's a rhythm there's just a rhythm to the way they speak you know what he said that could have been said in half the time yeah that's the best thing about it you know incredible fleshing out why bother yeah not my favourite example of neville listing his options though I think waking up in the twos and threes o 'clock.
37:53So if I get to four, I'm really happy. Five, I'm buzzing. But sometimes I get up in the twos and threes and that annoys me because I've only then had sort of four or five hours sleep or four hours sleep.
38:04Charlie Eccleshare:It remains absolutely amazing, Charlie. No one has ever said those words, ever. The twos and threes. Your twos, your threes. Yeah, that is amazing. He really is incredible. Next up, The Athletic. have signed up former Premier League referee Graham Scott as their new columnist to provide an insight into the modern world of refereeing, but particularly pertinent these days when it comes to VAR and things. And he produced a video for The Athletic to tackle some refereeing accepted wisdom. I quite enjoyed this. Let's pick it up. I'm Graham Scott, former Premier League referee, and these are three of the most misunderstood things about being a ref.
38:42First is that all people want is consistency. That's not true. People ask for consistency until they see it. Then they demand common sense. If we're too consistent, we're a bunch of robots who don't understand the game. That's not what we're about. We understand the game well, and we try and find the best balance between consistency on the one hand and common sense on the other. Next, the problem with VAR is not the technology. It's the clowns running it. None taken. I did that job more than 100 times. I promise you, we're always doing our absolute best. There are 30 cameras on a typical Premier League game.
39:14You watch a replay from every different angle, different speeds, some at full speed, some in slow motion. You see different things. It really is not as easy as you think it is. Lastly, that there's not enough accountability. By the time you leave the ground, the phone-ins have started. Don't go near social media if you've got any sense. And then on Monday, you have a meeting with your coach and your managers who go through the game again and tell you what you got wrong, most likely. On Wednesday, the Premier League's independent panel meets to decide whether you've got those big decisions right or wrong or maybe somewhere in between.
39:46And you get the outcomes of that vote on Friday afternoon, just before your next game.
39:51Charlie Eccleshare:Dave, referees in the media are a bit ten a penny now. I feel like there's, you know, in the last 10 years, we've had a lot of referees trying to break into the media and bring their expertise. There's a different vibe to Graeme Scott. There's a sort of quiet intensity about him, but there's a slight withering kind of delivery, which I really like. Like, there's a bit of personality about it. Yeah, there's a directness there. And it's him just speaking to Canberra, which is, you know, it's nicely done. It's funny. They're obviously in an unenviable position in many ways, as he suggests. Like, they get it from all angles.
40:19It's really hard to please everyone. Not above criticism, though, of course. But I do feel like the energy he's emitting there in that video is maybe one of the things that people don't like about refs. It's sort of underlying chippiness.
40:35Charlie Eccleshare:No, that's what I do like, Charlie. That's what I do like. I mean, obviously, he was always going to run the risk of limelight seeking. That's an inescapable accusation the referees get in this situation. But I do like the slight hint of pushback on this. The line that stands out for me is, it's not as easy as you think. I don't know about you guys, but a lot of these things, I do think must be bloody hard. He talks about, it was either in that video or the first column he wrote, and he's describing what it's like when one of those goals goes in, where there are about five things to untangle and you know the clock's ticking.
41:08Can you imagine how stressful that must be? And you're just like, and also, you know that thing where, you know when you like stare at an email because you're like, right, I need to make sure I'm sending this to the right person. Like if I send this to that person, then oh my God. And you're like, and you're literally just like staring at it, but the letters, it loses all meaning. And I imagine for a VAR, it must be like, okay, I'm pretty positive what I'm looking at is this, but you can probably start to like spook yourself. I just cannot imagine how stressful it is. And he does describe that well.
41:39One thing that's quite funny is he, I think in one of the articles or somewhere, he talked about the fact that he used to be a journalist. And I just found something very keasy about that. You know, a keasy always says I was a journalist. It's like a really tiny thing, but it's like, I am a journalist. Let's just be clear about this. I'm not just a referee doing a column.
41:57Charlie Eccleshare:No, true. Yeah. And yeah, he's showing his skills there. So yeah, more to come from him, I imagine. England's women beat Spain 1-0 in a World Cup qualifier at Wembley on Tuesday night. ITV were covering this game, Dave. And Spain threatened early on and they wrote, Olga Carmona hits the woodwork. The scorer in the World Cup final almost haunts England for a second time. Would this not be the first haunting? Because the first goal doesn't count as the haunting, does it? But I am starting to question myself. Where does the haunting begin? If you haunt someone, you're doing it to them again, right?
42:26Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, definitely. we've we've had more than one discussion about haunting over the years and you definitely cannot haunt someone you know you don't just i mean again unless she ghosted in at the back post with that goal in the world cup final i don't think she did yeah so this this debate is now haunting this podcast charlie but for the first time yeah without getting too sort of morbid about it because like the first time is just as in in your normal life and then the haunting bit is when they're sort of like, they're coming back. Also, I don't feel almost, I feel like that to me suggests too much of a desperation to talk about haunting.
43:04I kind of feel it needs to happen for the haunting to happen. Rather than, oh, they nearly... Yeah, exactly.
43:10Charlie Eccleshare:There's no such thing as an attempted haunting, is there? Ex-haunting. You've been arrested on the chart of conspiracy to haunt. I'm just checking. Yeah, she did. She played in the final of Euro 2025. She had the opportunity to haunt. Would that have counted? If she'd scored in the World Cup final then in the Euros, but she didn't. No, poor ghosting from Olga Carmona. Next up, MKBW50 on the Reddit points us towards some upcoming documentaries on Netflix. The Untold UK series featuring Jamie Vardy's Leicester story, the story of Vinnie Jones, and finally, Liverpool's Miracle of Istanbul. all and uh mkbw50 charlie says is there a less untold game than the 2005 champions league final it's a fair point it's a very fair point yeah i think that that story has been told i mean i am genuinely struggling to think i mean the 99 champions league final maybe like that that's sort of partly as well just because of how prominent a lot of those voices are in the media like think how many of those stories must have been told but this is right up there it's probably right, David.
44:16Charlie Eccleshare:That's the only rival to this game in terms of... It has to be fairly recent to have the story to be told, people are live to tell it and that sort of stuff. So maybe the pool of rivals for this title isn't that large. But yeah, Istanbul takes a lot of beating in this regard. So I'm not sure I need a documentary on it personally. I've literally told this story. Me and a colleague of mine, Mark Crossley, not that one, made a documentary. One Night in Istanbul. Oh, right. No, it was The Miracle of Istanbul, we called it. The Miracle of Istanbul in 2015 for the 10 year anniversary we made a documentary for Talk Sport as many others have done books have been written after dinner speeches have been spoken like it's been covered by every possible angle this game the other two fair play Vinnie Jones yeah Jamie Vardy to an extent maybe I think that's what I was thinking about one night in Turin like the 1990 semi-final yeah I suppose so not quite as much though more of a kind of the situation that the game existed rather than the game itself yeah individual games maybe there are more untold stories out there who knows time for footballers names and things this came from Chris McLaughlin he says I was waiting to have my teeth x-rayed and I spotted news of a reasonably new addition to the practice surgically implanting things into people's mouths in Wiltshire is Dr.
45:28Charlie Eccleshare:Pedro Netto that's great I'd love to have Dr. Pedro Netto as my dentist does Netto after a successful session does he do that thing of like because that's his you can't see it but isn't his celebration does he put his fingers in his ears to be like oh people you know people are talking about me so maybe has this netto been criticized as well in in wiltshire and he's silencing those outers i think george mendez he's got you know a network of of portuguese dentists dentistry super agent that would be so good gathering them all in one practice together excellent yeah if i had to pick one of the three of us to know pedro netto's trademark it would actually be charlie eccleshare so fantastic uh anyway speaking of painful things coming out of people's mouths.
46:13Charlie Eccleshare:It's time for Keys and Grey Corner.
46:28Charlie Eccleshare:Ford Super Sunday. A little hiatus for his blog, Charlie, which rang some alarm bells, but he's back. And the explanation was from Richard Keys. I don't usually write during PL breaks, and the last one was longer because the FA Cup quarterfinals were scheduled in after the international games. So I gave myself an extra week off. You're the boss, Keezy. You do what you like, mate. The explanation continues, Dave. Yes, I didn't file yesterday, open brackets Monday, because I spent the day recovering from a really good night celebrating Nicky Crosby's departure from B in sports. It's not like me to inflict damage on myself the way I did, but we had to have a blast.
47:07Charlie Eccleshare:Nicky is a good operator, and she'll be missed. only a good operator not a top one interesting yeah she's got the MBE but not the knighthood what else goes into his blog so a bit on Resenia a bit on Arteta being to blame if Arsenal don't win the title Arsenal's style of play another rant about Anthony Taylor being given a game in Manchester don't care about that anymore so that's another dig at Howard Webb and PGMOL a dig at Deserby so now we're into the be in sports hits where he's just repeating himself from the weekend. But then the real gold, Dave, about the 135 charges that still hang over Manchester City.
47:48Charlie Eccleshare:The PL should be ashamed. I'm honoured Liam Gallagher thinks I'm a spunk bubble for keeping raising this, and he can be sure I'll keep doing it until finally we have a decision on the alleged irregularities. I wasn't prepared for spunk bubble to appear in a Keezy blog. There's also a subtle bit that I really enjoyed. You know how he's got this weird use of inverted commas? he talks about Leeds he says something like I haven't seen a better away performance away in inverted commas as if away is this sort of like you know weird concept rather than just being like a very well used football expression I'm backing him on that because obviously they were away Leeds at Old Trafford but he's sort of suggesting it was a typical away style performance yeah I don't know I think that is what he's going for but it still just looks like I think you could italicise that but yeah Yeah, it's just in keeping with his very strange relationship with inverted commas.
48:42Charlie Eccleshare:I will read this out verbatim, Dave. And in closing, top marks to the owners slash operators at Union Berlin who've appointed Mary Louise Etter as first team coach, making her the Bundesliga's first woman coach. Top marks. I love top marks. Top marks is such a good way of doing it. I like the fact that he's said the owners slash operators as well. um just but yeah good to know do good to check in on his sort of you know sensibilities he is open-minded and that's really good so yeah top marks from us as well top marks to you as well charlie eccleshire thank you thanks to you david walker thank you and thanks to everyone for listening we'll be back on tuesday see you then
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49:56Charlie Eccleshare:Based on 2025 Consumer Choice Awards from Kelley Blue Book, visit kbb.com for more information.
50:21Charlie Eccleshare:your portfolios, put out fires and spin narratives than Eddie Erd. All on Europe's biggest sport podcast network. Find your next favourite sport podcast. Search Sport Social Podcast Network and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Sport Social Podcast Network. Verified comparison at content.sport-social.co.uk forward slash comparison.
From the publisher
Adam Hurrey is joined on the midweek Adjudication Panel by Charlie Eccleshare and David Walker. On the agenda: the imminent demise of the iconic Champions League match ball, Carlos Queiroz's highly logical new job, highly obscure football in the background of US crime dramas, worrying gaps appearing in the Premier League Archive, referees in the media, Jorge Mendes-backed dentists and the happy self-employment of Richard Keys.
Meanwhile, the panel tackle the formidable quiz challenge of the Happy Hunting Grounds Ladder.
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