Unleash the Arsenal long-reads, Spygate super-schadenfreude & a Bundesliga hoax

0:00Charlie Eccleshare:I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like. Is Gascoigne going to have a crack? He is, you know. Oh, he's there! Brilliant! The cheese! He's round the goalkeeper, he's done it! Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was, without a shadow of a doubt, giving him lip. Oh, I say! It's amazing! He does it time and time and time again. Crank up the music! Charge a glass! This nation is going to dance all night! The final title race status update of the season. How quickly after a title is sealed should the long reads be released?

0:50Charlie Eccleshare:The platonic ideal for Survival Sunday. The end-of-season treat that has been the expedited 12-day saga of Spygate. The one interesting name from the BBC and ITV's World Cup punditry line-ups. The peculiar PA announcements on EAFC 26. Someone's invented a Bundesliga club out of thin air and nobody's doing anything about it. And Jamie Carragher on sofas. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts. This is Football Clichés.

1:24Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry. This is the Midweek Adjudication Panel. Joining me first of all, Charlie Eccleshare. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Alongside you, David Walker. How are things? Things are good. To return to a topic from the previous episode, we challenged our listeners to name players who'd scored against teams they'd later go on to manage? Turns out it was a really easy question and there's shit loads of answers. Swords winners against teams they'd later go on to manage. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. That's the distinction. I was clear on that.

1:52Charlie Eccleshare:Okay, throw some names at me. Well, Ali Tweedale got in touch, a friend of mine, with Frank Lampard against Everton, both in the Premier League and in an FA Cup final, of course. So that was a good one. I think there was a Mark Hughes from Man United against Blackburn as well. I had a look at Scott Parker. I thought he might have got one, but he scored for West Ham against Fulham but it was the one in a 2-1 defeat. But yeah, I was wondering like this will require further research but there must be quite a few. Like Gordon Strachan, did he get one for Leeds against Coventry or Southampton in the early days?

2:29There's a lot of possibilities. Needing it to be a winner does narrow it down a lot. And I was thinking, did Stevie G get a winner against Villa at any point for Liverpool? That feels possible. Yeah.

2:40Charlie Eccleshare:It's really hard to look up winners. It's beyond my administrative capabilities, frankly, at a glance. But if any listeners have got some really incongruous sounding ones, I'd like to see them. Ones that look so absurd at the time. Right, time for the midweek adjudication panel. I've enjoyed over the last few months, really, incrementally analysing the title race status. And Charlie, when Arsenal scraped that 1-0 win over Burnley at the Emirates, Callum McFadden said Arsenal with one hand on the title now can we say that I said I'd be more inclined towards taking one big step towards at that point Charlie what would you say it would been for completism yeah yeah I know I think that's a real tragedy to Arsenal wrapping up the title yesterday we were deprived of one last one of these yeah I guess we'd sort of already had a big step towards though, hadn't we, with the West Ham win.

3:35Like, I think that was being heralded as that. I can see why, given this was then... Would you go as far as

3:40Charlie Eccleshare:one hand on the title after that game? That moves you to within one win. Within that grasp. And the fact that any drop points for City did it would have done it, which obviously is what happened. I do, yeah, I think it probably does meet that one hand threshold. Wow. That's a big threshold to pass, Dave. Don't treat it lightly. Just feels like you should never touch the trophy until it's yours. That's a good point. That's a great, literally, Dave, intervention, actually. Yeah, fair play. Maybe something to do with the ribbons. The ribbons have been tied on. The red and white ribbons are in pole position.

4:12The engraver is poised and ready. Not started, but is ready.

4:16Charlie Eccleshare:Now, the title has been sealed, Dave. There is still one fixture remaining. Can we still talk about City going on a run? Do you think they'll still be arsed? Go on, go on. We've got a one-game run at the end just to see if we can still do it. Do it for Pep. It is going to be a strange weekend because my feelings on the title race have really kind of been up and down since last since last night, since Arsenal were confirmed because watching it at home and with a bit of a kind of industry view on it as well. I was a bit annoyed, actually, initially. I was annoyed that we were deprived of a final day race.

4:52I was annoyed watching City at how shit they were. And also that they did eventually get back into it, but too late. Like do that 10 minutes earlier.

5:01Charlie Eccleshare:Stop scoring too late. That's really annoying, knowing that there are mere seconds left and there's nothing more that can happen. I think games should have an automatic two more minutes added on after a goal. That should just be the law. It's a big hobby horse from a friend of mine. And he's convinced that this happens all the time. You'd be watching games, he's like, you know what's going to happen? They'll score with a minute left. It's so annoying. Why does this happen? Just score five minutes earlier. I mean, yeah, as a spectacle, it would have been. It would have been crazy had they done so.

5:27But then watching the celebrations and seeing everything that's happened since, I actually, there is something special in a way about when you win something like this, when you win a league or whatever, and you're not playing, it enables a spontaneity of celebration that you just probably just wouldn't have in the same way if it was confirmed in a match or at a match on on Sunday um and it's been yeah so I've sort of vicariously enjoyed the celebrations by watching all the my Arsenal mates and people celebrating in the way but in the moment I was and also I just felt like I sort of felt it caught Sky on the hop a little bit like Arsenal just won the Premier League and they just had they had to like get alan smith from the ganty go and sit in the studio he was very funny about the whole thing yeah yeah i'm pleased it was like you got someone a bit more bombastic than getting off his eight chairs that are stacked on top of each other but also dave to your point it's like it wasn't even just that it was um the people that it was kind of uh oh they've spontaneous they've spontaneously got to make plans it was like people for superstitious reasons like actively didn't make plans it was like anti-planning because it was like you can't plan you can't jinx it and start planning that City are going to drop points.

6:42Like it's, it's this whole weird sort of psychology of it. And of course they're dropping points. Well, I mean, but even like for the players, it must've been quite weird. Like imagine if City had just won that and then you've all got together for like a potential title party. Like I feel really nervous about that. That like, does that not mentally have an effect of slightly making you think you've won it before you have? There's a cameraman there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. just be like come on mate can you just yeah just put the camera down until it's confirmed and they had to do the video as well yeah if it does just please can no one put this online i mean christ but in this day and age you there's you know they have to have the content ready to roll out the package has to be done not just by the broadcasters but by the club you know they got arson wenger to record to do that thing do the video beforehand and would you not be like

7:35Charlie Eccleshare:oh is this is this jinxing it a bit lads i watched that wenger video and i was completely preoccupied by trying to work out what the game was in the reflection of his glasses in the first three seconds i need to see this i'm ill i'm mentally ill but on that as well on the kind of planning though there used to be i think now it's kind of accepted but you remember there'd be that story of like well arsenal are planning for a trophy parade that feels a bit arrogant doesn't it's like yeah obviously you need to do that you can't just like that does require some planning How has that not pierced the banter, though?

8:04Charlie Eccleshare:Like when you see those sort of EFL promotion rigs that are just stored in the back of the stadiums, well, I won't be needing that now. I can't believe they had that ready. I mean, how? How has that become so bulletproof to logistics? I don't get it. Convenient, I guess. More importantly, though, when Kai Havertz scored what has become the decisive goal in the title race, there was a weird druryism that I think gets glossed over. And I hadn't heard it since World Cup 2018 when this happened.

8:41Charlie Eccleshare:he said i have it to got big is that a thing it sounds very basketball doesn't it got big or go or like peter schmeichel in the 90s made himself big schmeichel got really big there is there a fundamental difference between making yourself big and getting big like it feel big it's either thrust upon you or you do it yourself isn't it really yeah weird one some great stats coming out arsenal says bill edgar from the times are the first team to have become english champions when they're supported by the sitting prime minister sorry is that fact checkable charlie yeah that is an amazing claim to make because surely that's not like a matter of public record you know you don't have to declare that when you become an mp or something like do we know who all of these who did i make from the other day george canning support.

9:25Yeah, Association Football wouldn't have been invented.

9:28Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, we should have a little disclaimer since Opta started collecting records or something like that. Starmer has enjoyed Arsenal's success. He tweeted, 22 long years for the Arsenal, but finally we're back where we belong, champions. And this is Keir Starmer leaving 10 Downing Street for PMQs live on Sky News. Let's just show you these images, shall we, from 10 Downing Street. Arsenal champions of England, Prime Minister. Yes. Did you celebrate winning the league? Yes, how's it done, Prime Minister. Best teams for you all week, Prime Minister. Have you won the Champions League? It's remarkable stuff.

10:06Said in the manner of, you know, are you going to resign? Yeah. He's the Prime Minister. That sounds like sort of like riff we would do here. Like imagining what it would sound like if like rather than asking really nasty, like, you're leaving. You want to comment on the scandal, Prime Minister, that it's actually just like quite nice. Did you enjoy it? Good win, was it? Did you celebrate, Keir?

10:24Charlie Eccleshare:Are you going to celebrate? I guess there's only one gear when you're shouting across Downing Street. You can't add levity. You can't add a kind of Gary Cotterill kind of playful... He should have been there. Yeah. They should have sent Cotterill to Downing Street. Yeah. His credentials would get him in, wouldn't they? Do you think they were a bit too defensive, Keir? Not the most easy on the eye, were they? A bit reliant on set pieces, Keir? Chasing that fucking knackered old cat down the road. It's dead now, isn't it? Is it? I think it died. Really? Yeah. I think the Downing Street cat died, I think, didn't it, recently?

10:54Charlie Eccleshare:Wow, didn't know. All right. Yeah, fair play. Charlie, I'll put it to you. This is the defining title win of the Long Read era. I mean, perhaps Liverpool 2019-20 runs it close. But I feel like the Long Read are well in advance prepared for this. The BBC went with boats, fire and an AI song. Inside Arsenal's title win. That's a bit lukewarm for me. Yeah, I wonder. Yeah, Liverpool definitely would come close, I think. And because Liverpool had a few more years of hurt as well, didn't it? And I guess because Liverpool had COVID, there was even more time for people to kind of refine and fine-tune their inside story reads.

11:31I mean, that was a long pause, wasn't there? But yes, this is... I guess as well because he is such a long-read details manager. I mean, you know, pens and light bulbs and, you know, that kind of thing. It's all there. Like, it's a gift. I completely understand how it works, right? And you've got to do this stuff. But getting the notification for the Athletics inside Arsenal's title win seconds after the final whistle did, for me, just take the magic off a little bit.

11:57Charlie Eccleshare:Let the moment breathe, the Athletic. Fletch doing this with his hands. Yeah, the Athletic, David, went with toxic to title. How do you feel about adjective to noun? Well, it looks a nice variation. Yeah. As we've seen from the BBC example there, I think the three things format has probably been done to death, hasn't it? Yeah, yeah. So why not? Does feel a bit knackered. Charlie, you do have to hand it to Arsenal because I was refreshing my memory of their recent league finishes. 8th, 8th, 5th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st. Has anyone knocked on a league title door like this before? I don't think anyone has.

12:33Charlie Eccleshare:I really like the elegance of getting closer and closer and closer and then finally doing it. Yeah, I mean, they are the only other team, certainly in Premier League history, don't know about top flight, but who have had three second place finishes in a row twice. And the other time they did it, they did then win the league as well. So I guess there's that comparison. But they had won the league the year before those three place second finishes back then. So that's a bit less door knocking. I mean, I guess the ideal, but I don't imagine this happened, is if you literally went fifth, fourth, third, second, first.

13:04I really want that to happen. Crazy progress. What's that in poker? That'd be a straight.

13:12Charlie Eccleshare:A straight, okay. That'd be good. That's what they call it, the straight. It sort of implies pure incremental sporting improvement, Dave, I think. Hanging on to that kind of nearly men status and then moving on. because it's so easy to fall off after you've fallen short. Yeah, and obviously at times this season it felt like they were going to have an unprecedented quadruple, four seconds in a row, which would have been perhaps, that would have been the dropping off point. But it's good that they've done it. We were talking about this earlier on. I just want to ask you two now. I really want to know a bit more.

13:46The inside story that I want is the inside story of Arsenal's title celebrations. We saw them all celebrating at the training ground. they've all got i assume that maybe before that gathering did they all do like a bit of a stretching session or something or were they all told to come in training gear like that was the that's the the uniform you have to wear but like after the initial euphoria the jumping up and down and singing the songs and stuff you saw a few shots of like there was like a video saka was filming of lewis skelly with a bottle of champagne in what looked like a changing room and then you know fast forward to 5 a.m the few of them are outside the emirates but what actually happened like is there music is there food laid on uh is there speeches yeah i mean so apparently they were um in the like recovery pool like all the players just like jumping in the recovery pool music playing all of that sort of thing but i'm i'm so interested like how you know to stay up until 5 a.m take some doing you know you need some aids uh normally be that a bit of adrenaline in there there'll be adrenaline sure but like these players just don't really drink a lot that you know they're not going to be going mad they've got a champion league final in a couple of weeks didn't fit their asshole for it exactly like i just genuinely kind of baffles me like because they and they're so sort of monitored and things like this like i just really struggle to believe and also i remember andy murray saying this after he won wimbledon that after like two glasses of champagne he was gone because he's such a lightweight he so rarely drinks they've got not an ounce of body fat on them like i really just don't think they'd have been drinking lots or other stuff.

15:22Charlie Eccleshare:Stumped if Artetti would allow that behaviour anyway. Exactly. Don't need booze to have fun, though, of course, Charlie D. No, you don't. I'm just impressed by the stamina. I guess that's why they're elite-level athletes. Saw a lot of celebrity Arsenal fans expressing their well wishes and congratulations. Among them, Hugh Laurie. He said, well, heck, the Arsenal. What an amazing achievement. BPM 150, dropping slowly. I didn't know he was a gooner. I wouldn't have had him down as a gooner, Hugh Laurie. Is he a famous gooner? I don't know if he's famous. I would have him down as like a sort of twice a year Stamford Bridge attendee, personally.

15:55Yeah, he does feel a bit more Stamford Bridge. Though I know his son's, so he must have been kind of North London based for a while. Yeah, he's a bit North London metropolitan elite. Yeah, he feels very like the far show fake Arsenal fan. But, you know, maybe that's unfair. Maybe he is a childhood fan.

16:14Charlie Eccleshare:Attention turns, Dave, to Survival Sunday now. At least Sky have got something they can brand for the final day, Survival Sunday. And it is something of a relatively strong-looking scenario. But what does the neutral need here? It might be an obvious question, but do we need a cheeky early goal for West Ham at home to Leeds? Or do you want Spurs falling behind at home to Everton? What's the spiciest first twist? I think you want Spurs to be behind first. And then you have West Ham knowing that if they get a goal, they'll be out of the relegation zone. Because if West Ham go one up and Spurs are still drawing, it doesn't change anything.

16:52Basically, yeah. For the neutral, this is like the ultimate, please don't just sort of kill this early kind of thing. Because if Spurs go ahead... Richarlison! Yeah, exactly. Or if they're like two left after half an hour, there'll be a whole nation that was like really looking forward to what could be a crazily dramatic relegation battle, as well involving two teams that people really care about, that are kind of big clubs. It has the potential to be an incredible spectacle. And there'll just be such a feeling of letdown if they're 2-0 up and Everton have clearly tossed it off and it's done. It's a part of me feeling that Spurs are actually going to fuck it up now.

17:29Because we got used to this over the last few weeks. West Ham have imploded and have been on a terrible run. Nuno, the whole thing we talked about the other day, with Nuno with his head in his hands on the bench the other day. But I just don't think you can rule it out. Like a Spurs just somehow, just somehow, like a late goal. Everton get like a late goal and it all just collapses.

17:50Charlie Eccleshare:It's a pain in the arse. That's a pain in the arse fixture when you're struggling with something. Michael Keane just slams on in from 30 yards out of nowhere. Absolute madness, but fine. He has a locker. He's done that against Spurs before. He's literally done that against them. Do you know what, Charlie? like within the realms of likelihood i would settle for not hearing the words and that you would think is probably that before say like 5 30 anything after that i'll take it but you want it you want a little bit of wait so the game start at four don't they yeah so i think that yeah that no that i think would be pretty good i think like to get a half even of like genuine jeopardy and drama feels like about par because well i mean because west ham do really like one of those two things does really I mean I guess if it's just nil nils on both then you're still interested because it's not yeah it just takes a goal in either game but um you'd want the moment of there being one either way to really make it feel like something could happen if um if Spurs had got the point last night and put it to bed what would they have framed Sunday as would it have been you go for like the race to Europe Europe or like Bruno trying to get the assist record You can't do that.

19:01Charlie Eccleshare:That is such a backup final day scenario. Who's going to get into Europe and who's going to claim some spurious individual award? It's just not spurious. I'm not going to get on the anti-assist bandwagon. It's fine. But yeah, that would have been dull. It's a shame. But it's not to say that the drama of the season is over. A cup runneth over because Southampton have been dumped out of the championship playoffs on the back of Spygate. Charlie, for the neutrals or anyone whose club had kind of mathematically checked out weeks ago, this is a really unexpected end of season treat this. This is superb stuff.

19:33It is. It's an absolute gift. Like all of it, the elements, the fact that they have actually been thrown out. Like, that's amazing. Like, you know, you're so used to these things like, oh, they'll get off on a technicality or something. The protagonist of it described by the Daily Mail today is Spygate villain. I mean, what a description that is. Spygate villain. Spygate villain. But he is an amazing villain, isn't he? His look, how shifty he is. That's what's so funny. This guy who's masterminded this spygate. He does look pretty shifty. It is, as you say, an absolute gift.

20:12Charlie Eccleshare:part of the elements of this fairly unprecedented series of events Dave obviously schadenfreude is never far behind when this sort of thing happens it football fans don't need much encouragement but that that moment when taylor harwood bellis did the binoculars gesture a borough player when he ran past him celebrating a goal i don't think anything's going to top that in terms of you know moments that preceded calamity do you know i mean yeah you're asking for it it would have been nice actually if he'd got his fellow centre-half partner to just stand in front of him and like be the tree.

20:47Charlie Eccleshare:That would have been incredible orchestration. I mean, there are so many layers to this. Every hour, Charlie, something new happens with this story just to push it on even further. Reportedly, Southampton players are exploring their options regarding legal action against the club. Yeah. If the decision is upheld, suing your own club for fucking up and not letting you get into the Premier League. You'd feel inclined to do it, wouldn't you? Yeah. It all makes sense. Like they, you would feel absolutely screwed over and let down. I guess the only thing is whether you wouldn't have done it without that advantage.

21:16I mean, that is the suggestion, isn't it? But you're not going to see it that way. You're just going to be like, I can't believe you've messed up like this. They'll take the same

21:23Charlie Eccleshare:tribunal, Dave, and they'll get the Opta supercomputer to work out if they would have beaten Hull in the final. I mean, I guess, like, actually, they might have had bonuses for getting to the player final. No, they do, yeah. Exactly. No, they do. It's a big loss of earnings, potentially. It is mad, though, isn't it? It is proper, like, when that notification dropped yesterday i was like what they've done it they've actually kicked them out it's like you want your instincts straight away is to congratulate the governing body for having balls regardless of whether you think the punishment is excessive or not but that's exactly what kesey did by the way kesey was straight on it saying well done to the efl cojones perhaps they should adjudicate the man city case i gave the efl its first break 34 years ago but it is hard to recall dave a more swiftly earth-shattering thing to happen to a football club outside of an actual tragedy because it isn't just the scale of this because numbers are being thrown around the number keeps getting higher i love it when this happens people saying 200 billion 220 billion and nobody knows where to correct them but it's how quickly unraveled because i think it was about 12 days the window that we're looking at between story breaking first details emerging and judgment being laid down that's really nice and quick for a modern news cycle it didn't run and run it was just done It has escalated really quickly because it's one of those things as well.