Uzbekistan vs Colombia at 3am, the Infantino Shrug & a dubious bagsman

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1:50He's ran the goalkeeper, he's done it! Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip. Oh, I say! It's amazing! He does it time and time and time again. Break up the music! Charge a glass! This nation is going to dance all night.

2:20Charlie Eccleshare:Eccleshire spottings out in the wild. No World Cup should have a Group L. Resigning our TV-watching selves to an early defeat against the kick-off times next summer. Jonathan Pierce, Gianni Infantino, Rio Ferdinand and Donald Trump vying for our World Cup draw attention. Why Mohamed Salah's outburst was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Harry Wilson's goal gets the en vogue commentary treatment. Jeremy Ali Adier's bagsman credentials. and Dion Dublin invents a new variation on the proverbial goal-scoring diet. Brought to your ears by Goalhanger Podcasts, this is Football Clichés.

2:56Charlie Eccleshare:Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry and with me on the adjudication panel, first of all, is Charlie Eccleshare. How are you doing? Very well, thank you. Matt Browning has got in touch and says, Was Charlie in Margate? I saw him during a Christmas market. It would have been odd to go over and say, Hi, I love your work. I was in Margate and I would have loved it if he had. Yeah, please do next time. I mean, not necessarily a Christmas market in Margate, but just generally. You weren't in Dreamland, were you, Charlie, in Margate? No, well, I was thinking it's, yeah, Margate, quite cliches coded, not only is there Dreamland, but I also, in one of the many, many very trendy shops, I picked up a trendy sort of men's magazine, which was rifling through it.

3:36And there was an article where the headline was uniting the modern beardsmen, which I thought, that's sort of what we're doing, uniting modern beardsmen. It was about how, you know, growing really thick beards has become, you know, this very trendy thing to do and it's become a big business. So yeah, that really resonated. Speaking of which, this podcast is sponsored by.

3:54Charlie Eccleshare:One day. Charlie, you're being spotted everywhere. Someone papped you outside Southfield's tube station as well the other day. Yeah, again, very on brand. I was on the way to the British tennis writers Christmas thing at Wimbledon. So yeah, stood outside Southfield's station. I was absolutely drenched. it started pouring. If that person had had an umbrella, that would have been really appreciated. It's good to know you're out and about. That's the main thing. Alongside you, that voice, of course, is that of David Walker. Dave, how are you doing? I'm good. Played nine, goals seven. That is the record of Josh Sargent versus Watford.

4:25Charlie Eccleshare:Jonathan Bonnet writes in and says, are you sick of the sight of him? In some ways, yes, but I did finally remember to bet on him scoring against us this weekend. so at least I made a little bit of money after the inevitable I went any time should have gone first goal scorer a little bit disloyal isn't it? yeah but when it's happening so often it is ridiculous now every time he plays us he scores but of course you did win so I think that counts against the sick of the sightness yeah everyone's happy in the end meanwhile Cricket Clichés continues apace episode 3 records this week and frankly as the custodian of the spirit of the clichés concept Dave I think the evaporation of England's ashes hopes is actually good news for the podcast itself and get down to the bread and butter of what it's all about.

5:08Yeah, I think so. It was very much the case after the first test that some light relief may have been in order, but even more so now, it seems.

5:16Charlie Eccleshare:But yes, if you want to contribute to episode three, go to cricket.footballcliches.com and watch them hit the halfway point of their run. The Football Clichés Christmas Quiz, well, less than three weeks away now, 28th of December, live streaming from 8pm GMT. you can join in online it's a fully interactive multiple choice elite football trivia quiz six pounds to enter all profits are going to go to shelter go to football cliches.com slash xmas to get involved you can play on your own you can play in teams if you're all together in a flat somewhere i don't care do what you like get involved and the winner will get 250 quid and every time i say this charlie it sounds even better what a prize that is it is i was thinking as well given that doc brown's playing and those who are at the live the london live show will know we could be eating into the debt that we owe him uh were he to win that 250 quid so you know not suggesting there'll be preferential treatment but that would be a nice twist like the fifa peace prize but yeah exactly but football trivia version yeah uh but please do get involved it's gonna be really good night and um and just well timed what else are you going to be doing on the 28th on sunday the 28th right adjudication panel time on where else to start in fact where else to dedicate the entire first half of this episode than the world cup draw on friday night um dave we were this close to making this a dreamland episode so um nice touch from us for not doing so yeah we couldn't deprive the the listening masses of uh of our take on this seismic event on friday night i watched it with ali and george and charlie from the england pod in a pub in central london but the sound was off they refused they had it on the big screen loads people in they were watching it pretty busy but they they sort of they stopped short of putting the full sound on they still had christmas music playing over the top so that made it quite an interesting experience because when infantino was doing his big address at the start just the whole setting it kind of looked like he was doing stand-up just the way his but his body language i couldn't hear what he was saying it looked like he was just telling gags it looked it was like sort of live at the apollo or something the edinburgh fringe yeah infantino doing a little gig that's an interesting point to start on actually Charlie.

7:25Charlie Eccleshare:I'm going to get on to Gianni Infantino's body language a little bit later but he's a good performer. Like there was a potentially god-awful segment pre-filmed with Rio Ferdinand where they were having a phone conversation setting up Rio Ferdinand for his role in the World Cup draw. More on that later as well. And Infantino's a decent actor. Like he's actually quite good. Yeah, I mean I guess there's a reason why he's been able to climb as high as he has. I mean he's obviously fairly charismatic and able to win hearts and minds. Yeah, no, I'm afraid he actually is. Some people just have it. Whisper it quietly.

7:59Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean that what he's trying to do is any good. It's just, yeah, he's a genuinely charming man. And before he rose to the heights that he now occupies, he just used to be the guy that did the draws, right? So this is his bread and butter. Yes, yes it is. Knows his way around a draw. He does. You know, Charlie, I'd got my head around the idea of a 48 World Cup on the horizon and, you know, just the heft of it all. But then when England were drawn in Group L, that was a real kind of Mourinho rips his headphones off moment for me as the World Cup has got to. Group L shouldn't exist.

8:33Group L is, yeah, that is crazy. I mean, when the Europa League and things like that, you know, before they went Swiss model, did we ever get that high? I don't think so. Have we seen Group L's before? I thought we must have done something. It doesn't feel totally alien, but it is obviously for a World Cup very uncomfortable. Well, there's definitely been a round of 32 in the Europa League so there probably is a Group L on that basis. Never thought about it.

8:57Charlie Eccleshare:We just never paid attention. So it's a hefty tournament, Dave, and it's taking place in a potentially challenging time zone or time zones plural. Bearing in mind our traditional geographic privilege for televised tournaments, is this the first World Cup of our lifetimes? Assuming, you know, if you're not going to be there that we're going to just have to dip in and out of it. That's quite heartbreaking to me to dip in and out of a World Cup. I don't want to just browse it. Yeah, I think that is going to be weird. I mean, particularly when you add Euros into the mix, the last three or four tournaments, particularly sort of post-COVID with people working from home a lot more.

9:29If you've been able to and if you've wanted to, you've basically been able to watch almost all of the matches across the group stage. So we've had our fill, is that what you're saying? Yeah, whereas the desire to do that will still be there for some people, but it's going to be really difficult. I mean, and also just, you know, we're used to the 48 team thing by now, But actually, there are more games in the group stage this time than there was in the entire tournament previously, you know. And so to watch all of them with the time zones in mind as well is going to be, I mean, only the absolute most dedicated people will be able to do it.

10:03You're in the realms now of newspaper articles about, you know, person X from Y who managed to watch every single... How did you do it? Raw dogs of the 26 World Cup. Yeah, it's not going to be many. By the way, little twist here. I have actually been to a Group L match previously. In 2018-19, the Europa League, I covered Chelsea's away trip against Viddy, the Hungarian team. Wow. Chelsea were in Group L that season.

10:27Charlie Eccleshare:What were you doing there? Incredible. Yeah, it was for the Telegraph. It was an interesting assignment. That sounds quite Group L. I don't know if this is my kind of early 40s weariness talking, Charlie, but my attentions were drawn first to which game is the least likely I'm going to be watching. and tunisia versus japan at 5 a.m is going to be a real struggle for me i fear motivation wise yeah yeah i mean that's a getting up for not a staying up for that's true so that would be i've done if that's harder or easier depends on one's body clock on that basis is it not easier but to set an alarm to actually set an alarm to be getting up for it it at least feels more realistic to me than then you staying up for a 2 a.m or a 3 a.m i mean 3 a.m i think i think 3 a.m azbekistan colombia i think staying up for a 3 a.m is probably so i mean certainly for me with my sort of having two young kids body clock that would be way harder but i think the act of staying up is generally easier than sort of specifically getting up for something much more likely to fall asleep having stayed up than to not wake up for your alarm if you've set one.

11:36I just don't think you'd set it. I think you'd be like, I'm not doing this.

11:40Charlie Eccleshare:Also, I'm not setting it for five. I want to watch the pre-match build-up. I want to watch them go, who's the key men? Oh, like an early Ryanair flight, an 0-4 alarm is grim. Even more worrying days, especially given the sprawling schedule of this World Cup, there's no real standout day in the group stage either, even allowing for kick-off times. Even if I did have the kind of body clock potential for this. I mean, maybe the 15th slash 16th of June, you've got Spain versus Cape Verde at five, Belgium, Egypt at eight, Saudi Arabia, Uruguay at 11, and then Iran, New Zealand at two for the real heads.

12:14Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, that's about as appealing a day of games that I can see. And that's, I think, is that a Monday going into a Tuesday, I think? Ideally, you want, at any tournament, you want the first Saturday to be having a really good lineup of games, whereas there's three or four games on and you can just plan your whole day around it and go all the way through. Whereas, And it's very unsatisfying to think of a day of games going across two days, technically speaking. Even down to the fact when you look on the live score app, you have to flick it onto the next day to work out who's playing at 2am or whatever, which always annoys me.

12:48It doesn't feel like you can really settle in from 5pm all the way through to 4am.

12:55Charlie Eccleshare:Also, I don't want to wake up to goal clips on Twitter, Charlie. that's for the NFL I don't want to you know I'm going to find out what the Bills did last night oh no the Jets I don't want it to be oh Iran oh no yeah that's going to be that's going to be your life I'm afraid I'm going to take a lot of hard searching record the highlights without knowing the scores oh what no make it more challenging to watch the World Cup well but you could but that's the thing actually that would be easier to do I don't know what they're going to do in terms of a sort of highlights match of the day style recap show here's what you missed well but it would work well getting up having not seen those overnight scores and watching a World Cup match of the day at first thing at 9am or whatever or over your brain 10 minute highlights 10 minute highlights I would try and avoid the score for I definitely wouldn't be watching the whole game of Uzbekistan not the whole game yeah match of the day length highlights would be a good shout actually Scotland's game against Haiti is a 3am on a Saturday night slash Sunday morning which I reckon I'll do that.

13:59Yeah, that has a little bit of potential about it at the weekend.

14:05Charlie Eccleshare:Yeah, I agree. Semi-sincere chat now, Charlie. What is the group of death and is it group I with France, Senegal, Norway and potentially Bolivia? Yeah, probably that. I mean, I've seen some talk about our group, about England's group. The group of death, but I don't know. Because it feels like it's, you know, you've got two fairly major favourites there. I mean, it's a tricky group. Yeah, that is a hard group. it's technically the hardest group we could have got based on the first two pots anyway Croatia were the highest ranked team in pot two Norway were the highest ranked team in pot three but because we drew Croatia we couldn't get Norway so then the next team down somewhat ludicrously were Panama who were ranked 30th in the world yeah we'll take Panama again old foes are they old foes can we call them that they'll want revenge they'll be desperate for revenge probably will be better than that than they were in 2018 but ghana are the classic team they sort of have this ability to perhaps initially be underrated because you look at them like say not qualifying for afcon and and they're in pot four and you think oh that should be fine but then you think oh but they have got semenyo they have got kudos and they've got history of you know like 2010 they had that great run you might overrate them on that basis though as well it's very easy to overrate a team based on the fact that they've got two or three notable attacking players but then you look at the rest of the team and think you know obviously it should be fine so they didn't qualify for afcon and i don't think cape verd qualified for afcon as well charlie this is this is a little bit like i'll skip i'll skip the work dude because i've got i've got i'm going out with mates on friday so i can't do both yeah i find that so weird especially because because afcon's got bigger and bigger as well so how do they not qualify for that project 26 that's what it's all about.

15:48Charlie Eccleshare:High performance stats writes in, Dave says, the best indication that this World Cup might be too bloated is in the regulations document on the FIFA website, where the final 18 pages are just a list of the 495 permutations of third place teams in the second round. Game's gone. It's an incredible thing to publish. It is very similar to my original Happy Underground spreadsheet. Why have they published this? Full transparency is good. And you know, FIFA are big on that so in that sense but a hypothetical waste of time that is amazing it doesn't feel like that is possible but obviously you know mathematically but very quickly spirals out of control when you've got so many teams but 495 permutations yeah there's guy mowbray running through all of those at kickoff as it stands it's gonna be an absolutely brutal as it stands experience i remember that for the first euros the expanded euros in 2016 and the permutations were just like oh they went on and on and on and there was that crazy group it was portugal's group wasn't it where it was all changing hands and then i'm hungry iceland are involved because that because that affected us because england played iceland off the back of a late equalizer which everyone i think celebrated at the time how wrong we were how do you feel about england actually being in group l group l aside but the fact that it's the last group and there are so many groups means england won't play for about a week into the after the tournament has started i'm all right with that you think I'm alright with that it's like when you get a really nice dinner like a good roast dinner you save your favourite bit you eat all the you eat the broccoli first and then you save I said you save the meat for last I often end up with just a plate of meat and gravy at the end you don't just do it all together no I never never really sort of honed that skill when I grew up I was sort of slightly astonished that people would sort of push all their bits various elements together on one fork and then put it in their mouth yeah I was going to say this is good for I do know I do know somebody who does every individual bit at a roast and I've always found that quite weird One at a time?

17:51I'm not sure it's necessarily one at a time but certainly one item at a time there's no mixing of the potatoes the carrots you know, etc

17:58Charlie Eccleshare:I'd just like to focus my attention on each element and then finish with a flourish so exactly how the World Cup is going to pan out I imagine but yeah, I'm alright with that Dave, I think I think England were late at World Cup 98 I seem to remember we were a late letter We started on the Monday after the World Cup started on the Wednesday. So again, I think we were Group H there, which was the last group. So just waiting for that England-Tunisia game. I was part of the infamous demographic who were in a GCSE exam on the day of England-Tunisia. Ah, no way. It's not too well on that. But yeah, a permutations chat.

18:29Charlie Eccleshare:Just artificial excitement, clearly. But the real organic excitement was at the World Cup draw ceremony itself. We kicked off with Andrea Bocelli singing Nessun Dorma, Dave. I wonder how Andrea Bocelli feels about being asked to do that. because it's a bit like, really? It's not really my one, actually. I've been working on some new stuff, actually. That's all right. Yeah, like George Michael at London 2012 just doing his new stuff. It'd be great to have heard a new one from Bocelli, wouldn't it? There was a great moment at Glastonbury, what, three years ago when Paul McCartney played. And he's obviously going through most of the hits, Beatles, Wings and whatever, but then there was just a moment where he just steps forward and goes, this next one's about my third wife.

19:13And it just immediately, everyone's just like,

19:15Charlie Eccleshare:the Jason McAteer. He's like, why? A collective why from the audience. Oh, never should an accent not be picked up on by a fellow podcaster. So yes, so the coverage began in earnest with that one, but there was an early chance for Jonathan Pearce, so glad he was on duty, and Dion Dublin to reflect on the dramatic way in which Scotland secured their passage to North America next summer. Well, Dion, what a night it was. Yeah, listen, I'm far from Scottish, but when I was seeing these goals go in, I was absolutely delighted. What a moment. Charlie, I put it to you that no one in the history of humanity has ever said, listen, I'm far from Scottish.

20:03Charlie Eccleshare:Englishman coming in peace. Yeah, that's so good. I'm far from Scottish. I think maybe David sort of smoothed it out a bit because, I mean, you can't just say, look, I'm no Scotsman. Yeah, I know he did have a... He has, obviously, he played for England, but not loads of times. He is the sort of striker that if he had not got a cap for England, you could have imagined him sort of the Scottish FA looking into his records to see whether there's any link. But sadly, no, far from Scottish. Spell at Celtic, of course. Long forgotten about, but yeah. Yeah, good to clarify that, Dion. Thank you. Danny Ramirez, the actor, was out amongst the VIPs in the crowd, Charlie, getting some soundbites.

20:40Charlie Eccleshare:And I really enjoyed him imploring the viewing public to go and check out Roberto Carlos' goals on YouTube. Check them out. Really good, honestly. I mean, for young people that probably would, they wouldn't be as familiar with his back catalogue. I suppose so. And it does lend itself well to a YouTube compilation. There was a great bit when Ramirez was in the crowd a bit later talking to, I don't know who this, again, Soundoff, so it wasn't a person I recognised. I don't know where he was from. sort of older older sort of large was it hugo sanchez possibly yeah so big he had a mustache yeah yeah yeah yeah and thomas tuchel was in shot perfectly in between ramirez and sanchez and he kept looking right down the camera you know it was like in like you know like steven merchant did in the office when he popped up in a few of the scenes at the back it was like kept sort of just peering into the camera just staring at it and then looking away and then looking back again the one thing you're not supposed to do in those in those moments uh some office heads are definitely going to correct you on that one by the way i'm going to preempt that we're going to get at least five tweets from people saying it wasn't steve a merchant it was that random it was the random janitor guy in the background it's his dad isn't it oh is he really yeah yeah i can say from you fantastic we got there um but yeah so i mean who who could they have with the comic timing and the and the charisma to preside over the draw process it was indeed rio fernand as we've established and And he really did have an incredible manner.

22:06Charlie Eccleshare:Just the sheer lack of warmth from Rio Fernand really shone through. Here he is. Hey, Rio, do you ever get to score on him? Pardon? What type of question is that, Danny? I'm a defender. Oh, I know. But you come up for headers all the time. Yeah, but listen. See what I'm saying? This word is a good title. Guys, professional. What are you trying to do out here? I mean, we're going to talk to you later. It's the kind of BN level air conditioning in the background, Charlie, that doesn't do it. It really sort of sucks the joy out of this. change yeah yeah curious to know how yeah it doesn't sound like that's light-hearted like you assume it kind of must be or maybe it starts off but um perfectly reasonable nothing question to ask really weird in that you can't work out whether they're whether when they're trying to make it intentionally sound awkward whether whether it's supposed to be funny but they can't do it so then it sounds awkward whichever way around it hasn't worked yeah if anything he's done it too well i completely agree um but a reminder if it was needed charlie that jermaine genus was the draw conductor for qatar 2022 so i don't know how this trend is continuing of sort of you know mid-level to high-level english football characters presiding over fifa draw ceremonies seems a bit strange where's the pedro pintos of this world surely we need a kind of continent spanning figure for this that is a crazy though to kind of think that that jermaine genus was i mean he yeah he was he was a big deal back then i'm not saying though dave that you know just because Jermaine Ginias was such a runaway success in 2022 that Rio Ferdinand got the gig on that basis but I think he auditioned for this about a year ago this was the moment that FIFA realised he was a man for the job here's Rio Ferdinand accepting the player career award at the utterly ludicrous globe soccer awards last year no firstly thank you very much I think you all agree this has been a wonderfully executed award ceremony we go to many of these and some of them can be a shambles but it's been fantastic so far.

24:01Charlie Eccleshare:So thank you. It's been an honour.

24:06Charlie Eccleshare:Maybe he is a comic genius. It's good, actually. Dig at the FSAs. Yeah. This is what FIFA need. More people who just don't give a shit. Maybe that's what we need. But yeah, Gianni Infantino himself sort of pervaded this whole evening. Objectively, an incredible operator. The record speaks for itself. That's where he's got to. He speaks seven languages. But he doesn't really need those because he relies on literally one hand gesture for absolutely everything. You must be familiar with the G.A. Infantino shrug. He uses it for everything. It's a shrug of the shoulders, but the arms come out and he just goes.

24:40Charlie Eccleshare:He used it in Russia in 2018 when he was sat between Putin and the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia. Yeah. MBS, yeah. First game, yeah. Yeah, and he was just like, well, that's football. And he did that about 15 times during the World Cup. But during this ceremony, he did it about half a dozen times. You know, it meant great player has been mentioned. And so the shrug just meant, what more can we say about Pelé? Or, you know, just like, what more can we say? So his shrug is an incredibly useful tool in his armoury. It shows him as humble, but also that football's out of our control. And it's just like, it's its own thing.

25:13Charlie Eccleshare:So Infantino, just a great guy, really. Sounds like FIFA have really won you over again. They're hot on the heels of the Club World Cup. Got to stick together, haven't you? Yeah, you can say it. It's fine. His charm does overspill, Charlie. The next day, FIFA did the schedule reveal, which was slightly less glamorous side of things, where they announced the fixtures and a little panel of guests. And the original Ronaldo was on alongside him. And Infantino simply called him Phenomeno the whole time. Just Phenomeno. That feels almost like he's being obsequious to Cristiano Ronaldo. Right. As if it's like that name's reserved for him.

25:51But yeah, obviously that's very weird. That's a good point. that probably is something that they would think about. But that's also a bit like when somebody just calls someone legend. Yes. You know, constantly. Ah, legend. Great to see you, legend.

26:03Charlie Eccleshare:Yes, exactly like that, to be fair. What are you having, ledge? Much was made pre and during about Donald Trump's FIFA Peace Prize Award. I wasn't quite prepared, Charlie, for the trophy itself. Wow. Which is a fascinating looking thing. Incredibly creepy. There was grasping zombie hands for the earth. who designed this it's really tin pot actually like the font on the side looks rubbish it's surprisingly crap but yeah it is sort of low-rent horror film yeah those hands sort of emerging out of nowhere out of like a swamp or something yeah they do really do look like that don't they yeah like they've come out from the deep i mean it's it's almost like a situation that i have found myself in before i'm sure many listeners have when you you know you need the trophies for the end of season player awards and you've you've fucked it you haven't got enough time left and you can you've only got to take what's left in the catalogue or in the wherever it is you get your trophies from and you're like yeah okay that one's a bit weird a bit bigger than i'd like but it will do oh i'd love this for the future cliches quizzes of just some some oddly feminine hands perhaps even childlike hands just sort of clawing pathetically at little earth the other thing i thought about and i don't know you're never quite sure really how much fifa bought into the whole Trump thing but there is a possibility that clearly across the board not just with this World Cup but anything that's happening at a certain level in the US the price of doing business is to do something like make it make a massive gesture to Trump in some capacity give him a prize give him an award do go to the Oval Office and present it with something there is a part of me that thinks that maybe they were like oh can we make the trophy as shit as possible and he won't he still he won't realize anyway just make him look ridiculous I'd like to think that was the case.