Vittorio Angelone on orchestral anthems, Lev Yashin's cap, and badge-avoiding classy touches

25:12No, I think that exists in lots of different realms. There's plenty of bands where I'm like, the music's great. Everybody who listens to it is the worst person I've ever spoken to. Okay, glad to know it's in good company. Well, it's like, Adam, your hatred of The Simpsons, which is like the finest show ever made. But you hate all the meme culture and everything around it. Yes. But it is an absolutely phenomenal, I think it is the best show ever made. Yeah, but also that is essentially based on me being excluded from it. Right. By myself. Different phenomenon. Yeah, it's unfortunate. Probably the best player to do the flat cap thing was Lev Yashin.

25:45Yes. Only goal-kibidor in the Ballon d 'Or. So he was like, like he won the Ballon d 'Or basically like wearing a flat cap pretty regularly and throughout that season. and he, I googled this, Yashin is famous for wearing his cloth flat cap of burnt brick colour and he wore it for a significant part of his career and according to urban legend, it was stolen during the 1960 Euros and after that, he just stopped wearing a hat. Why the fuck do things keep getting stolen in the 60s in football? I know. Do you get found in a bush about two years later? I know the job for pickles for dogs. You just eat it though, wouldn't you?

26:17But with hats, I mean, they are incredibly tin pot, aren't they? There's just no way to make them look sort of stylish or elegant. And Dean Henderson wore one in the FA Cup final or semi-final, didn't he, last season? Yes. I think, notably. I mean, I guess part of the reason why we don't see them as much now is because stadiums are taller and there's not as much sun coming in. I think this is a perfectly reasonable explanation, but Dean Henderson is basically the last man standing when it comes to wearing caps for goalkeepers at the very, very top level. Pickford did it in 2020. He is very cappy, Pickford.

26:53But Dean Henderson, back in 2021, clearly made a last-minute decision to wear one because he had to basically take one from the Manchester United club shop. And Darren Lethley wrote it in, in 2021, and told us that Henderson had worn a cap in that game from the club shop, but he didn't just wear it. He perched it on top of his head like East 17 style. Sideways cap is unbelievable. That's a dreadful look. Oliver Kahn used to wear them as well. 2003, he nearly won the World Cup in a cap. So some good goalkeepers have worn them. So it's not necessarily a mark of a Timpott goalkeeper after all. So this is the thing.

27:30Somebody tried to style it out differently. You think cap doesn't feel like the best solution to that. Jim Layton wore a visor, which should be illegal. You can't be wearing a visor. What benefit does it have for keeping the shade but not protecting the top of your head in any way. Was it just restricting? Lighter. Maybe. Andy Roddick was a big visor guy at the start of his career. It's a bit poker. But he became very cap. Visors now are much more sort of golf. Yeah. In my head, it's a visor with the sort of coloured, sort of translucent thing. Oh, yeah. Like people wearing old Vegas movies. Yes, exactly.

28:13Gamblers, for some reason, wearing visors. What kind of thing is that? But I'm sort of surprised that, you know, big stadiums and lack of sunlight notwithstanding, that a goalkeeper in the modern era hasn't worn like a snapback. Well, I was wondering what would the cap of nowadays look like? What would it be? I mean, I love the idea of, I think we've sort of lost the idea of a mad goalkeeper a little bit, of somebody wearing a cap because as a goalkeeper, he's allowed to wear a cap, but he just wears it backwards. Yeah. Yes. I mean, exactly. you could wear it backwards and just turn it around for the second half or whatever.

28:49Exactly. I just feel like there's a cultural resistance to goalkeepers wearing caps. A goalkeeper can't just wear a cap, Charlie, and it not be remarked upon. Why? Yeah. But I think that the death of the mad goalkeeper is all part of this. I think they want to be taken more seriously whereas back in the day they kind of prided themselves on being different. They don't wear tracksuit bottoms anymore either. You know, those kind of maverick wild goalkeepers. Which makes perfect sense. The tracksuit bottoms for like, you're spending a lot more time sort of diving in different directions. Like, why, sort of, why are you wearing shorts?

29:18It seems absolutely crazy. Like it cold as well? I genuinely think the reason Pickford wore a cap in 2020 is because there weren't fans in the stadium. How do you feel about goalkeepers like the famous Turkish goalkeeper, Rusty Rekber, doing the black kind of paint underneath their eyes? I'm so into it. I think that's to avert the glare of the floodlights, bouncing off their cheek into their eyes. Listen, I think the science is complete nonsense, but I'm well into the war pit. It might have just been a look. I went down an even further rabbit hole. Sorry, I've done so much stupid research. Basically, the origins, everybody used to wear caps in football because they didn't have kits at the start.

29:58So it was caps or scarves or sashes to denote who was on which team. Like way back, like 1800s. Yeah, this is the 1800s. By the way, bring that back. Everybody has to wear a scarf. What are they called? Pantaloons. What are we thinking of? The big trousers. Pantaloons. Pantaloons. I did it the French way, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that was up until 1904. Your shorts had to cover your knees. Wow. And then the, I don't know if this is obvious great football trivia or like sports brand trivia that I've missed out on. But I just found it out today. The first manufacturer of sportswear and football kits was Bukta in 1879.

30:35But they were overtaken by the Humphrey Brothers in 1920. And the Humphrey Brothers from just outside Manchester in Cheshire, they became Umbro. as a contraction of like um umphrey brothers umbro and I just think that is such great trip I didn't know that we are all learning stuff here and then one of the last mad goalkeepers Chris Kirkland wore a cap when it wasn't sunny because it stopped him getting distracted wow those are Chris Kirkland's words it kept out distractions he's the ultimate cap wearing goalkeeper when Vittorio was only as far as 1904 there Dave I had flashbacks to you reading out every football result from the 1990s 2000s on the last episode, which I'm pleased to say had an overwhelmingly positive response from our listeners.

31:19But we don't need to do that on a regular basis. I did see one yawning emoji. That's fine. That's fine. Can't please everyone. Right. Vittorio, your second fascination of football, please. The front flip throw in. The lesser spotted front flip. Very lesser spotted. And just an unbelievable risk, I think, is the main thing that excites me about it. I don't think it's actually functionally better. Rory DeLapp, you're not getting any more out of him if he learns how to do the front flip thing but i think the risk of it going catastrophically wrong is so exciting it there obviously is a risk reward debate to be had here charlie but it also strikes me as something that i can't believe the authorities haven't banned by now what it feels too frivolous and sort of taking the piss frivolous threat of injury yeah and also just not being footbally enough yeah I mean I just think of it as something from like a Danny Baker VHS yeah it's mad I mean but there was one at the 2018 World Cup wasn't there Milad Mohamedy there was an attempt yeah well yeah he tried and it was like an aborted one I've got it here it's awful he kisses the ball and points to God this is injury time of Iran's 1-0 defeat to Spain at the 2018 World Cup and the crucial thing is here is he gives it the big build up he kisses the ball points to the sky and then just completely bottles it yeah you've got to commit There's a real lack of commitment.

32:38Oh, it's awful. That is really bad. It's so hard-breaking. He does like a sort of bastardised cartwheel and then just has to stand up and doesn't even launch it into the box after that. He does a short throw. And then goes for a short throw, which is just awful. And then there's Spain players in the middle, Charlie, just going, what is he doing? The body language is basically, he hasn't broken the rules. It's just, what the fuck is he doing? It's the World Cup. It's the greatest show on earth. This is the People World Cup we're talking about here. But it's, I'm sort of, my mind's sort of blown really to think that this has ever happened in an actual professional football match.

33:13And it obviously has happened. Was Steve Watson did it in the Premier League? He was doing it from the age of 16. Yeah. And I suppose in a way though, if you had someone who could absolutely nail it, like every time, especially given the current discourse around throw-ins, like surely somebody at some point might learn to do it so well that we see it again. Well, that was the weird thing about that Iran one. That felt like he'd never done it before in his whole life. And on the biggest stage he's ever played at, he thought, I'm going to give this a go. I reckon I can figure it out in the moment.

33:49But someone presumably invented this at some point. Or realised that it could be a thing. It was a child. A child. So there was a MLS coach called Shellas Hindman, who was head coach of Dallas FC. Of course, we all knew that, obviously. his son Tony Hindman sort of like went up to his dad and was like why don't why doesn't anyone do like a front flip because his mom was a gymnast and taught him how to tumble so he showed his dad this mad sort of front flip throw in and it's obviously started in America so it has to be someone whose mom was a gymnast and dad was a football coach yes that is the perfect gene pool you need I guess the end point could be you know there are several players plenty of players who can do like multiple tumbles and backflips and stuff you see you know when you see like these mad shots of like the the gymnasts who run down the thing and then you know and you i saw one the other day and it was like almost looked like you know i was checking it to see whether it was ai it was like incredible like five flips then a big twirl like somebody could do more than one like if you'd like started at the halfway line and went down the touchline and You'd have to bend your run three.

34:59At West Ham, they go, right, that's it. I've got loads of space. Surely Nani could have pulled that off. Over Femi Martins. Yeah, exactly. Imagine him launching a throw after one of them. You could sort of bounce off the ball, couldn't you? You could use the ball to... I mean, it begs the inevitable question, Vittorio. Is it better to teach someone who can already front flip to do a good throw-in, or are you taking a Rory Dillap and teaching them to front flip? I think it's... You can't be trying to teach Rory Dillap how to do a front flip. You think that would take longer? That's a fool's errand, I believe.

35:28You're wasting years of your career. I think I found the most successful front flip throw-in was Nader Mohamedy, no relation to Milad Mohamedy, who absolutely spaffed it at the 2018 World Cup. And this was in the Persian Football League. So basically back in Iran as well. Pretty close to the halfway line, does a front flip throw-in and the keeper sort of comes out but misjudges it. and just tips the ball and it goes straight in. So he basically scores directly from a front flip throw-in. So if he'd left it, it wouldn't have counted. Exactly. Which would have been a real shame. What is it with the Iranians and the front flip throw-ins?

36:05Love their front flip throw-ins over there. Dates back to 1979, I believe, the revolution. And it was quelled. There was a brief period between 1882 and 1898 where you've never been allowed to score directly from a throw-in, but there was a brief period where you could score an own goal from a throw-in. Right. Just in case somebody... I don't know why they brought in that rule and then subsequently took it away? Because when is that happening? It's one of those rules, though. So this happened recently with Ribblesdale. Someone did a long throw and it nearly went in. And I was on the touchline going, is that allowed?

36:37Yeah, yeah. Can you score from a throw-in? Yeah, yeah. I wonder if in the Premier League they would outlaw it. If it was happening quite a lot, if players were regularly doing front flip throw-ins, whether they would say, just stop doing this. Like, it's too silly. That would be the reason. They would come up with a different reason. It would be the injury one or whatever. But it is, this is too silly. It just looks, it doesn't look like you're taking things seriously enough. In defence of IFAB, the game's lawmakers, as I'm obliged to describe them, they very rarely intervene with this sort of stuff on the basis of taste, do they?

37:10It has to be a functional impingement on the evolution of football. But I don't think they would, and they should, but they wouldn't get involved on the basis that it just looks wrong. So you reckon teams could just be doing this all the time? Are we talking about front of the throw-in still? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, aesthetically a disgrace and doesn't belong in football, but as long as their feet are on the line, I don't mind. That would be amazing. See, I love it. I just love the risk. It's risk-reward. One thing from my Googling of throw-ins, an early edition of the throw-in rules was no matter who kicked the ball out, whoever gets to the ball takes the throw-in.

37:49Oh, yeah, yeah. Like whoever touches it first after it goes, it's your throw in you have to do it and honest to god bring it back wouldn't that be unbelievable just have a mad scramble every time the ball goes over the line okay I'm so into it I just think I mean what an extra amount of effort that's going to be for literally everybody involved everybody from fans to referees to players to linesmen to everybody and the ball boys getting in the way it's an ass that's why it's called kick it to touch can I just ask what is the word count on your notes it's not I'm not quite up there with Jake Fyre we're at 801 8.01?

38:22Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've used up quite a lot of them already, I fear. No, no, no, no. Can we have your third and final fascination of football? No, we're getting into my sort of special interest. Right. The third fascination is classical music in the football world. And I think it exists far more than people are aware. I nearly wrote my dissertation as a classical music student about football chants and how they relate to classical music. Oh, nice. But the reason I wasn't allowed to do it for my bachelor's degree, my undergrad was that there wasn't enough existing research. So at an undergrad degree, you have to basically just pull from other people's research.

38:57You can't do any of your own. You can't just create a topic out of nowhere. Exactly. You can't be the first guy looking into this. It's too innovative. A real blow for football cliches, by the way. The director of music was like, you can probably at some point do a PhD in this, but you can't do this at undergrad level. I didn't know that. Wow. Yeah, very, very well. So obviously, you know, you feel very strongly about classical music as that is your grounding. So do you think it's being used... too frivolously in football? No, no, I think it's amazing. And I also think the people from the classical music world could learn a lot from football.

39:28The argument that I ended up making as a small portion of my dissertation, which was that classical music isn't for everyone, but it could be, is that football matches are the largest community music events in the world every single week. Because where else do you get 40 ,000 people potentially all singing a song at the same time? Out of time. Yeah, sort of. Roughly at the same time. It's echoing around the stadium. Broadly speaking. You don't get that anywhere else. And I think they're sort of generated in communities and localities. And they've become the sort of, we don't really have folk songs being developed anymore.

40:05But football chants absolutely are that. And I think it's not viewed in the same way, which is probably positive in a weird way. but I think there is something really interesting about the presence of music because it doesn't exist. Like if you talk to Americans about going to see American football or anything, they just don't have, they don't sing and then you see the videos of them trying. Yeah, when they do. Have you seen the thing? Someone posted it on our Reddit yesterday. There's some company in America has released an app which may or may not be well received from the American fans but it was for the Buffalo Bills fans, I think it was targeted at.

40:43basically an app where you can like it tells you the words for the chants and like it sort of bobs along like a like a karaoke thing so you can do it in time to the to the rhythm of it that is unfortunately going to be in the Premier League within the next 10 years and it's absolutely woke nonsense that is awful it is going to go very badly I was surprised by this I assumed that this was going to be about classical music being used in kind of football broadcasting things like that to kind of we've got Zadok the Priest in the Champions League thing We've got a couple others. Tchaikovsky's first piano concerto was the Gazprom pre-Champions League ad.

41:20Wasn't Ode to Joy for Euro 96? Yeah, BBC have gone big on classical music as their opening soundtracks. And Charlie, it seems to me that they're trying, not unreasonably, to depict football as a high art form. You can see how they dovetail a little bit, but should football be presented in that way? I mean, yeah, there's a sort of grandeur to it. It's a sort of shortcut. it's become completely expected that every major tournament I think ITV they certainly used to anyway their opening credits would be with a piece of as you two will have heard a few times when we've done our recordings have been interrupted by people delivering packages my doorbell is Ode to Joy is it?

41:59yeah wow and because for that reason Year in 96 was like it's like the theme music that I can remember first out of all others that is I believe the most commonly chosen song on Desert Island Discs Is it really? But it's crucially not, it's not Brexity, is it, Ode to Joy? That isn't like one step to having like a flagpole in you. No, no. It's the opposite, I think. It's Beethoven. Is it, right? Just checking. It's truly not even English. Speaking of the absolute masters, there's that famous YouTube compilation of Matt Letizia's Southampton goals set to Mozart's Divertimento in D Major. Which, you know, for everything we know about Letizia now, is still a great legacy for him to have because he, there is, there is something about an elegant footballer sort of tip-tapping his way through a game that lends itself to classical music.

42:48So it can be a good soundtrack. And ballet. Shostakovich wrote a ballet about football. It was probably about how football can sort of prevent war, which I don't really think adds up, but it's called The Golden Age. Tell that to George Weyer. And he's a massive, he was a huge Dynamo Zagreb fan, Shostakovich. Really? And my favourite football fan composer is James McMillan, who's a Scottish composer, who's a massive Celtic fan. And he's done all sorts of amazing things, had countless pieces performed at the proms, at the Albert Hall and all this. And somebody asked him what his most nerve-wracking moment as a composer was.

43:20And he said he was asked to write a piece for the 120th anniversary of Celtic Football Club. And he completely lost the head and didn't know what to do. But he wrote a piece that he's very proud of about Celtic losing to Partizan Belgrade in the 1989 European Cup qualifiers. So we wrote a piano concerto about this sort of two leg fixture called the Berserking. Because I think the first leg was 2-1 to Belgrade. Not at Belgrade, but it was their home game because they weren't allowed to have home games because they were a bit naughty. And then at Celtic Park, the score was 6. It was 5-3 in the 89th minute to Celtic.

44:05and then Partizan Belgrade scored to make it 5-4 but it was 6-6 on aggregate and Belgrade won on the old sorely missed away goals rule and James McMillan has the claim to fame as writing the only piece of orchestral music about the away goals rule. That is absolutely good. It's a shame you've explained to us which game that was from because it would have been good to play you, Adam, the music and see if you could have guessed which game it was from the rhythm. Yeah, yeah. Mate, if you were going to come up with the sort of, you know, several concertos, you could feasibly do it about Celtic losing in the qualifiers for European competition, to be fair.

44:39So that's probably not quite fertile ground. But coincidentally, when you sent this one over to me this week, at almost exactly the same time, I got a WhatsApp message from Ellis James, who completely out of the blue said that Ludovico Ainaudi's Divinere, specifically for 1 minute 46, is the most Gabriel Clark does a positive report from the England camp piece of music ever.

45:05Oh, yeah.

45:12Hopes are high. Exactly right. It's early days, but... Yeah, Ellis, James says here, Charlie, the hugely gifted young player, I think Owen 98, Rooney 04, is smiling and pulling on his boots as the piano motif kicks in. I mean, this is a ubiquitous piece of music, but... Yeah, but it just does have that kind of hope hopefulness and that you know we're early on but they're you know we're dreaming big and why not you think it's early i think it might be semi-final so they've like in the euros last summer they've had a real journey to get there and we're looking back at like the the last minute goal against slovakia the penalty shootout against switzerland ollie watkins last gasp winner against the netherlands and there's one final step to be made can this group of young lions make the step i think there's too much at stake by then like that there's just doesn't have the gravitas yeah i I just feel there's a slight lightness to that.

46:05Okay, on the back of that then, as a classical musicsman yourself, classical musicsman, that's a very funny thing. How do you feel about national broadcasters weaponising classical music to manipulate people into thinking that this stuff is going now to be dramatic because we have been told so because classical music has been played over the top? See, I think this is a misnomer that people think that classical music is being pushed from the top down upon football, like it's being placed on football. Classical music exists in football going up the ways as well. So quite a lot of football chants are from classical music.

46:37Like, you know, is this a library? That's La Donna Immobile by Giuseppe Verdi. And there's a couple others. So I don't mind. It's just dramatic. That's anything in broadcast. Anything is like, oh, there's a bit of drama. It's orchestral music or it's a bit sort of retrospective or reminiscent and you're sort of nostalgic. There's going to be piano and it's going to be A &RD, which is sort of, he's sort of the pop of classical music nowadays. It's a bit like you speak to sort of composers and they go, fuck's sake. We should have just done the whole episode on this. It's fantastic. It's good stuff.

47:14And I tried to find the first football, a real stretch one is Go West by the Village People. It's based on Paco Bell's Canon, which has now obviously become you're a shit and you know you are a shit. But Elgar was a huge Wolverhampton Wanderers fan and he tried to write and he tried to write the worst the first, not the worst the first football chant and it had one line of lyrics and it was he banged the leather for a goal and it never took off but I want to play you somebody found like the original manuscript where he'd written the sort of tune that he wanted football fans to sing and they played it like on their keyboard at home and I want you to try and work out how you sing He Banged the Leather for a Goal to this.

48:10He banged the leather into the goal. You'd have to go really early with that thing. Just get it out of the way. He banged the leather into the goal. Wow. So that never took off, but Wolves fans now sing Nimrod from Elgar's Enigma Variations with no words to keep it going. And then pop and circumstance, March number one, is land of hope and glory, which becomes all sorts of different football chants of we hate Nottingham Forest, we hate Arsenal too, we hate Manchester United, Tottenham, we love you. But Elgar was beaten fairly soon after by a guy called Albert T. Smith, who wrote a chant in the 1890s for Norwich Teachers FC, but it was then adapted for Norwich City because it was written before Norwich City existed as a club.

48:58And it still gets sung today. I think this is the oldest still existing football chant because Norwich City fans still... On the ball.

49:10Obviously he kicks off with 7-8 now. So here we go. Three, two, one.

49:40I don't think they did the city, clap, clap, clap, back in the 1890s. Fair play, Dave, that the first ever football chant essentially could, if you'd invented it today, be deemed to be essentially an approximation of every other football chant. So it's basically did its job straight off the bat. It's patient zero, isn't it? The language is very 1890s. On the ball city. There's a couple extra. Would you mind a dramatic reading of the first ever football chant? Come on. So obviously they just do that sort of chorus bit. But there's like there's verses that, you know, nobody knows the verse. Nobody knows the second verse to On The Ball City.

50:42Never mind the danger. Steady on. Now's your chance. Hurrah, we've scored a goal. Let all tonight then drink with me to the football game we love and wish it may successful be as other games of old. And in one grand United toast, join player, game and song and fondly pledge your pride and toast success to the City Club. Kick off, throw in, have a little scrimmage. Keep it low, a splendid rush. Bravo, win or die. On the ball, City. Never mind the danger. steady on now's your chance hurrah we've scored a goal fair play if Norwich gets to the FA Cup final full version there you go you are getting the injury you've made it then oddly parts of that seem verbatim like Keir Starmer's Meza Holland Dix well that brings to an end Vittorio Angeloni's crowd sourced focus grouped fascinations of football we'll be back very shortly with his irritations

51:49Oh, look at that! That is wonderful!

51:56Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is Meza Harland-Dix with our guest, Vittorio Angeloni. He's told us about his fascinations of football. Now it's time for his irritations. What's your first one? I will say these are far less well-researched than the fascinations. We can go top-heavy. I didn't want to spend any time on the Mozzarella. Okay. Tiny shin pads. Right. Get rid. I'm bored. It seemed like it's become a weird competition between all the coolest players in the Premier League to have the smallest little shin pads. And I don't get it. It is ridiculous. Like, I don't mind, like, people wearing small, the small sort of shin pads that are, you know, without the sort of ankle straps.

52:39That's fine. Yeah. But the ones that you see now, yeah, where they're literally just like a square. They've got an SD card in their sock. I mean, it's ludicrous. It looks like they are smuggling something, Charlie, into prison. That shouldn't be allowed, really. That is, you know, talk about like throw-ins not being allowed for being too silly. That is clearly ridiculous. Well, this is a good point. Charlie, on the idea of whether they should be allowed or not, the laws of football have no accommodation for the size or shape of shin pads. They just don't bother to specify. That said, having grown up in an era where shin pads could be absolutely enormous and unwieldy and uncomfortable.

53:13I can see why there has been a sort of pushback against that. And I do think that is preferable to those days when some kids certainly would have these massive ones and they could be really uncomfortable. So, you know, yes, we've gone too far, but I can see why it's happened. Well, I have done some research on this, but I've gone a bit meta with it because you are the second Mesut Hollendicks guest in a row to evoke something that Jeff Shreves once raised on this podcast in his own Mesut Harland Dick. So what a cultural influence he is after all. Yeah, Shrevesy was on the money. Yeah, so singer-songwriter Shura and ex-Gamesmaster host Dominic Diamond also raised small shimpads as one of their irritations.

53:52Like, Vittorio, why does this annoy so many semi-famous people? Well, I just think, thank you for semi-famous. I'm trying to capture the entire variety here. You can't come back with that because you maybe have to claim it yourself. I just think either it should be that you have to wear proper shin pads. Also, I don't really buy, I get when we were eight or nine years old and you had these sort of unwieldy things. Maybe you were between a kid's size and an adult's size and they were a bit big and they were uncomfortable. I'm willing to bet that every Premier League footballer can afford a nice, well, like a custom fitted pair of shin pads.

54:30Part of me thinks like, what is the thinking behind you having to wear them? Surely it's sort of your own prerogative of like, wear them, don't wear them. If you get injured, you don't play and you don't get paid or whatever. But then if, you know. I don't understand the necessity of it. Yeah, I always did used to wonder that. I mean, I always thought it was like, how often have I been kicked in the shins? Like, how often am I aware of them like really doing their job? I mean. Oh, mate, you miss them when they're gone. I'm sure that's true. You get a toe on your shin at five a side. It's actually, I think, pound for pound, one of the worst injuries you can get.

55:04Really? Yeah. Because your shin bruises so easily. Yeah. Because the bones are right there. Yeah. I was building a chest of drawers this week, and I knew that at one point during the process, I would bang my shin against a piece of wood. It happened, and it was awful. Yeah. For that split second, it's the worst thing that could ever happen to you. But it is, and I bet it will be a really arbitrary reason that they took hold in a way like ankle supports and things like that being... But they're frowned upon by paramedics. Is that right? They hate Sunday League footballers who have broken their leg and they have to cut off the ankle protectors, which otherwise do no good job.

55:37So paramedics really rail against them. I'm a big ankle support guy. What's happening? I still wear them. I've never worn them. If I don't wear those big, chunky ankle support shin pads, I feel my legs feel too light. I feel like my legs are going to snap. Are you all wearing shin pads to five a side? Not five a side, no. Eleven a side, yes, but not fives. Eleven a side, yes. I absolutely agree. shin pads is for 11 a side but if somebody shows up in shin pads to 5 a side red flag that would be me I'm all or nothing no I'm sorry no I completely disagree with this I understand the spirit of your argument it's like actually no I don't get it well yeah because 11 a side is different studs as well so there is more of a threat but there's more contact to 5 a side if everybody's in Astros then you don't need shin pads but there's more contact so it's more imperative to wear studs demand shin pads and loads of people wear blades to 5 a side as well and I have a go at them for that But I have to say that my choice to wear shin pads to five-a-side is not based on fear for my shins necessarily.

56:37For my shins. For my shins. It's not cowardliness. For my shins. It's I want to be in football mode. I want to dress as a footballer for 11-a-side and five-a-side. There are no modes for me. It's all or nothing. You're one of these actors that needs to get into costume before they can get into character. I'm Daniel Day-Lewis of Power League. In many respects. But, I mean, Dave, it feels like the lower legs of footballers are the epicentre of a potential Games Gone revolution because we've got small shin pads. You've got socks being cut off at the ankles. Yeah. You've got football boots, and there's so many debates there.

57:14You've got brightly coloured football boots, which has been a Games Gone staple for many years. Yep. Footballers who steam their boots to make them smaller so that they get a better touch of the ball. And then you have players who famously wear a size too small. So they can feel that. So this is a Games Gone playground. Holes in the back of the socks as well. Yes, I was going to say. But it's quite funny though, isn't it? That those are, as you correctly say, those are Games Gone, you know, with like football purists. But they're also just attempts to get marginal gains. And they're actually taking football very, very seriously.

57:46Which is normally what we bemoan young players. You know, Games Gone merchants would be like, oh, these young players, they don't care. You know, they're all these over pampered. No, they're really, really caring about their craft. The sort of things that we'd be like lionizing Fergie and Brian Clough for doing. It's just doing it in a way that you don't like. Is that why they have holes in the back of their socks that they really care? I think they're just gullible idiots. No, but some of them with like being very specific about their boots and things like that, I do think comes from a position of I want to feel as comfortable as I possibly can.

58:17I think there's a huge copycat element to it, though. One person starts it and everyone thinks, well, I have to do it. So you also set pieces and long throwings. it was a flare jeans skinny jeans exactly but holes in the back of socks made it onto FIFA oh has it a couple of years ago so you could choose to have a so will small shin pads become a thing that you could customise in football games I suppose that hasn't if the cutting socks did I suppose that hasn't where do you get them like the really small shin pads they don't seem they don't seem real so they're definitely a thing you can buy them now you can't buy them in Sports Direct though can you no definitely what can you buy in Sports Direct now to be like a can I tell you a great bit of crime I did recently at Sports Direct.

58:58So I have Adidas Predators that I play rugby in and my occasional 11-a-side, I'll play in them as well. And one of the studs came out. It was a bit of an annoyance, but I was like, okay, they're soft ground Adidas boots. I'll order some Adidas soft ground studs and then I'll just replace it. They arrive, they don't fit into my boots. And I was sort of irrationally furious about it. But then I thought, no, I'm just going to solve this problem, go to the Adidas customer service sort of chat bot thing. And I'm like, hello, these are the exact boots I have, the kind of item code, all that stuff. What studs do I need to buy to replace a stud on these boots?

59:36And they're like, yeah, here's the ones you need. And they sent me a link to the ones that I'd already bought and clearly didn't fit. And I was like, right, that's not true. Mike actually up to his old tricks again. Exactly. I've already been here, so I'm not doing that again. And they were like, oh, yes, sorry. Can you tell us what boots they are? and I was like I fully already told you this sent them it again and they were like oh it's actually these studs order them they don't fit and I am just incensed at this point so I marched down to my local sports direct walk in grab the pair of boots that are the same as the boots I have unscrew a stud in the pocket wow wow it's a victimless crime it's a victimless crime it is a victimless crime I'm trying until a child buys that pair of boots takes it home check the studs are you not opening an egg box before you put it in your basket?

1:00:24Listen, fair play to you for finding something in Sports Direct that is actually the thing you wanted to play football in. It's worth stealing. What is going on with Sports Direct these days? If you need to buy a last minute pair of boots, it's just an absolute shambles. Tell you what you can get, a captain's armband. That's always on sale at Sports Direct for no reason. You suddenly feel some leadership instincts kicking in. No actual captain's getting that, surely. I'm just going to get one. I don't think that an opportune moment is going to come in this second half of the show, but we do need to raise your nutmegging of Dimitar Berbatov.

1:00:57Is that something you planned for in advance? Did you have the right studs on at the time? It was an artificial pitch, wasn't it? So does that help? Oh, I think proper pitch. I think it was a grass pitch. It was pretty low-level football. It was Seaview. It was a very nice pitch then. Yeah, it's a proper, like, it's Irish League, Seaview, surrounded by sort of loyalist paramilitary flags, which is quite an exciting element to have in a charity football match. What charity game was this? Why was Berbatov in that part of the world? So it was comedians against sort of ex-pro footballers. And I only found out after doing that, and I sort of now look back and go, well, obviously all the footballers got paid cash, sort of thousands of pounds to go, and they just do that.

1:01:40It's like sort of an ex-pro little earner that they go and do. and so our pros were like Jermaine Beckford Jermaine Pennant Dimitar Berbatov Ryan Giggs Jason McIntyre and Stylian Petrov so like a good little sort of you know like the streets won't forget like a few of the streets won't forgets along there very good fun they'd all be the threshold of could have done with you out there today if you saw them at a stadium yeah yeah yeah and to me Berbatov was like the Berbatov and Petrov for some reason I was well into the Bulgarians but I was just I was like God Berbatov that's especially because even retired Berbatov is basically playing the same game that he played when he was in the Premier League and it wasn't planned I wasn't like I'm going to nutmeg somebody today I was like we're going to go out there and have a good time do whatever and I just pick up the ball and Berbatov's in front of me and again I'm all risk reward I like a front flip throw and I like just going for it and only when watching the video back did I realise that I was the last defender yes Really?

1:02:44Wow. It's an absolutely insane bit of play. And then I just pass the ball and do a full lap of the pitch celebrating after I not ride him. And that lap of celebration that he did, Charlie, really does imply that it wasn't pre-planned. It was something you could possibly plan in advance. But what I did want to discuss, actually, about this was, now, you're not shy to mention this, and quite rightly so, and your celebration is joyous. But Charlie, my question is, is there more kudos to nutmegging Dimitar Berbatov than there would be to a famous defender like Paolo Maldini or something? Is it a greater achievement to nutmeg a potential nutmeg?

1:03:22Is it like kidding the kidder, essentially? No, I do think a defender would be, like, not that I'm at all diminishing your achievement, but I can also... Also, he's quite tall. He's quite easy to nutmeg. He's very nutmeggable, isn't he? Berbatov, of all the players, I can least imagine sort of pressing with any kind of purpose. He's kind of right up there. This is great. Anything else? What I will say is that I did... Also, Bulgarians are notoriously nutmeggable. I did try not... I tried to find somebody else nutmegging Demetar Berbatov on YouTube, and it doesn't exist. I think I'm the only footballer ever...

1:03:57What did you search for? Like, nutmeg Berbatov. Berbatov gets nutmeg. Just like all of these. But he just... He never pressed hard enough for anything. Exactly, yeah, well, that's what I mean, yeah. But I will respond to you with what I responded to one of the first Instagram comments on the video of me not making Berbatoff, which we have in like super slow-mo, which I personally don't think I should have. This should be a story I tell in the pub and nobody believes me. But it's not right that I can go, oh, well, actually, here's me not making Berbatoff. But somebody replied, he's not a defender.

1:04:27And my response to that is, I'm not a footballer. Fair play, yeah. He played centre-back for Manchester United once. I not made them premiership centre-back. That's great. So you can use that in your next part. I'm the only footballer to ever not make them a talk about. I'm claiming that. Well, I'm glad we got that discussion out of the way. Tell us about your second irritation of football, please. This thing that people have got into their heads, it's really important and respectful. Not walking on the badge on the way out of the tunnel. I just think it's completely pathetic. Do you think this is the kind of the end game for classy touches?

1:05:05Like there's been this sort of 20 year long obsession with minor gestures that are deemed by the consensus to be great things for a footballer to be seen doing. Do you think this is now the unacceptable end point for this? Because it is ludicrous. It's absolutely ridiculous, especially when it's a badge that was designed two years ago. You know what I mean? Like people are walking around the Man City badge as if it's not brand new. It's like, oh, you've got to respect the badge. Why? The badge is a toddler? What are we talking about? But I mean, there are other elements to this, Dave. I mean, the design of the badge is going to make that tricky.

1:05:43I mean, take the Spurs badge, for example, which has no discernible outline, no outer limits. It's just a thin, narrow cockerel standing on a ball. I mean... Do you take the radius from centre? Yeah, exactly. And imply a circle. Yeah, exactly. Well, that gives you more room to work with, though, doesn't it? You could just hop over the cockerel, wouldn't you? We could all hop over the cockerel, of course. Yeah, exactly. Well, is there like a bad... The Man United one's probably quite good to do a little bit of fast feet work on the way out. Hopscotch. Yeah, exactly. But this has sort of broken out of the limits of football as well, Charlie.

1:06:20Matt Craig wrote in the other day. He says, I was at Central Park enjoying the John Lennon imagined mural last week. A very poignant audience gathered watching an acoustic guitarist covering Beatles songs. People were tightrope walking around the edge of the ground mural and parents were grabbing children so they wouldn't step on it out of respect. Yet instead of reflecting, I was struggling to hold in laughs as it purely reminded me of the bizarre Bellingham obsession of avoiding similar sized badges on the floors of stadiums. So it happens in the wider world. Is it part of the superstition thing, as well as the respect, It's also just like, I'm a bit worried.

1:06:54It's like stepping on three drains. Yeah, it's just like, oh, I just don't want to... It's not a grave. People think of it in those terms. I mean, I'm sure we've made this point on the podcast before, Vittorio, but if you don't want your badge walked on, don't stitch it into a massive carpet in the tunnel where everyone's going to be walking. This is classic my dad if I've left a cup on the living room floor and he kicks it. And I'm like, you've kicked my cup. And he's like, well, don't leave it on the floor then. it's exactly that sort of with him there I've got to say sort of asking for trouble it's a clear health and safety hazard what are you being there for?

1:07:27is this a Northern Irish thing what's going on? the material it's made of it's basically doormat material as well it's like it's situated there I don't know purposefully or not but it's before the tunnel you can scrub your boots we know this is definitely caught on as a cultural thing because script writers have got involved in this as well Neil Thackra wrote in Vittorio and says I was watching the new series of The Recruit on Netflix. And in the first episode of Series 2, the main character walks around the CIA logo on the ground like he's walking around a football club crest on his way onto the pitch.

1:07:58I had to rewind it several times and try to explain it to my bemused wife. So, yeah, even the CIA, I won't even tread on their emblem. Where does it end? The doormat at Tesco? I mean, the CIA might feel they're a more important institution than a middling Premier League club. I have far more respect for Tesco than the CIA. Tesco didn't do 9-11. They had the resources to do it, though. If you'd ordered it, it would have happened within the next six to 12 hours. No, it would have been a terrorist attack replacement, like a substitution. Instead of getting 9-11, you get a Wheel of Edom. Who would have thought that conversation would turn to this?

1:08:45Not walking on the badge in the tunnel, the ultimate classy touch. Right, your third and final irritation of football, please, Vittorio. This is a broader thing of everybody being just money-grabbing bastards. Players who are sat on the bench at a big club and not getting playing time and complaining about not getting playing time, pushing for a transfer, it all seems to be going through, and then the smaller club can't meet the wage demands. But we're talking like instead of getting 150 grand a week, they would be getting 120 grand a week. and I just think, do you want to be a footballer or do you want to sit on the bench?

1:09:22This is amazing. Charlie, even Jeff Shreves didn't go with the overpaid, pampered millionaires angle. And then channeling the spirit of Keyes and Grey. It's about time someone did, actually. Yeah, I mean, I've always thought with this, I think it comes from a place of being like, well, why should I be paid less than, you know, if I'm looking at someone else who I know is worse than me, why am I getting paid less than them? but where do you stand on Raheem Sterling? I mean he's currently what he's being paid way too much by Chelsea for anyone to go anywhere near and he's what he's kind of just training with the youth team isn't he?

1:09:57I'm a bit like if I was Raheem Sterling like you've been making crazy money for such a long time you're sorted your kids are sorted realistically probably grandkids are sorted but I guess we don't always know that I do think that sometimes I agree like it's pointlessly principled I mean, putting any issues that they have aside, you know, people do say, oh, you know, your lifestyle will go to whatever you're being paid, you know, and all that stuff. But put that to one side. Short career. But, like, if I was Raheem Sterling or any player like that, like, can't you just go and have fun? Can't you just, like, pick a club?

1:10:35Can't Raheem Sterling or equivalent level player just say, I want to play for this club in the championship? They'll take you. if you rung up Stoke and said do you fancy me for a season I don't even think we need to dip as low as the championship but he might not want to but like if we're telling him he might not want to leave London to go play go and play for QPR or someone you know just go and have just go have fun where he started his career there we go in stereo in unison that was unbelievable well also be more ambitious be like I want to go and play in Barbados fuck it I want to go play in Barbados yeah if you want a nice quality of life yeah exactly you're going to play in the Swiss League yeah whatever it is you want Look, I mean, I guess the problem we're facing here is a sense of distance between, you know, our humble lives and the hundreds of thousand pounds that footballers earn.

1:11:20Now, I realise that the premature ejaculation medication ads are going well for this podcast, but I'm still not in a position to be able to sympathise with footballers like that. But I do often wonder, Vittorio, just take the hit of a few tens of thousands. That means you can do what you love and possibly reignite your career. It's a one step back, two steps forward situation. so maybe we're focusing on the wrong thing here it's not that it could be a potential lifestyle change for a footballer it's just you've got to think two chess moves ahead in your career exactly I think Grealish I think is a good example of somebody who sort of took the big move to the big club it didn't quite pan out and is now it can work out money's class but beyond a certain amount of money there's all those studies over a certain amount per year happiness doesn't increase after that and they're earning that awake no matter what so it's like take a notch down and enjoy your life be beloved by a good fan base go to to quote the screener boys a proper club who will absolutely adore you being there and become like a cult hero comedy is quite a good analogy for this if you if you played the o2 right you'd still like to go and do the odd night at a small club as well right yeah and also like I'm so not money motivated.

1:12:40I think money, and talking about how much money you're making and arguing about it publicly is so gross. There's a weird thing that some comedians do, and it's very American, where they say, oh, I just had the highest grossing weekend at this comedy club. And I'm like, say most attended, because all I think now is like, well, multiple people have sold out a whole weekend. You've just managed to charge the most. it's really embarrassing that is a very different cultural thing you see that across like a lot of the time in America yeah there's all that sort of stuff and sort of Ricky Gervais has like adopted it I think he has the highest grossing comedy show of all time at the Hollywood Bowl and you just think like eww yeah and then go why are you like chuffed with that as he himself once might have said oh love me yeah but there is a difference like footballers there is a difference because they are like their earning potential does just plummet after a certain point So I can understand why they are like, just max this out.

1:13:38Like, I know what I'm worth. I don't want to, I don't think it's fair that I'm, you know, because they might feel I don't want to be exploited. I don't want to be underpaid. But do you think in your 40s, you're more likely to be like, oh, I wish I'd played more football in front of a crowd that like really wanted to see me play football and had more amazing moments or like, oh, I'm glad I could put more into some, like I could hand more to an investment banker. I trust to look after all my money. That's all that's happening with all that money. But I bet there are some who are like, I've spaffed away all my money.

1:14:04if I'd been, you know, because there will be. There'll be loads who, even though they earn an absolute fortune, will then have lost it like 10 years after. But I don't think the 20 grand a week difference is what's causing that or not causing that. It's not like Raheem Sterling is like being very, very sensible with his money. But if he went somewhere else, he would spaff it all. Yeah, he's obviously an extreme example. What cautionary tale this is going to be for the select few MHD would-be guests out there who price themselves out of an appearance on this podcast. Hopefully they're rethinking things.

1:14:38Now, actually, you've got a little bonus one here to do with the bench. Tags on is like, why do you want to sit on a bench for loads of money rather than playing for slightly less? Can we make it a bench again? Can we make the bench a bench? An actual bench, yeah. Not for some reason, racing car seats. Why are they all in like... Is this pampered millionaires again? No, because they're not even comfortable. if they were all in big armchairs that were reclining I'd be like okay that's sort of like pampered millionaires but they're all in these rock solid Formula 1 chairs for no reason they seem to be designed Dave for the spectacle of a player who's been hooked after 60 minutes and is furious with their manager and just wants to slump in a seat you couldn't do that on an old school bench you couldn't sulk on an old bench you can sulk in a Recaro Formula 1 seat you can hit it quite hard on the way back it's like a really slump like pull your tracksuit up.

1:15:32I mean, we wouldn't have been the only club to do this, but Watford, well into the 80s, actually still had two benches and they didn't have dugouts. They didn't have any covered sort of bit over the top of it. And because Graham Taylor said that because we had terraces that were uncovered, he said, if the supporters are going to get rained on, I'm going to get rained on too. So he refused to install a proper dugout. And now his statue outside the ground is of him sitting on that bench, like crouched down on that bench. But you do see, I mean, even in like the documentary of Graham Taylor that we talked about on Dreamland the other day, like he's on the bench, Clough, like on the bench in those big European games.

1:16:11There is something quite nice, romantic about just the humble bench. The Bielsa bucket. I love the Bielsa bucket. That was a good bit of fun. I just, maybe, you know, we were talking earlier, Charlie, about how stadium architecture is sort of mitigate against goalkeepers having to wear caps, but presumably overhanging side stands in Premier League has negated the use of what looked like small conservatories. Holly tunnels? Oh, Highbury had one, didn't it? I think so. Sort of a, you know, essentially white and perspex shelter. Yeah. For the subjects to sit in. What happened to those? Yeah. Yeah.

1:16:48Much beloved. Gamescom. I mean, yeah, there are basically several tiers to modern day Premier League benches, Dave. They are a whole section to themselves. If you've spent billions on the stadium and you just sort of install a little bench that you would find in the school gym, it's just not going to wash, is it? With the flappy things on the... Yeah, yeah. Such a vivid memory of the wooden bench. With the white dots. Somebody sat on the... Jack Grealish on the white dots like, fuck's sake, it's right up my ass. The old Trafford bench is going to take some... sort of removing because basically they have to walk up some steps to sit behind some brick that looks like it's the front of a magistrate's court yeah a very particular look the old Trafford dugout but players shouldn't have to walk up steps or down steps to enter or leave in the front of the That's a health and safety risk Exactly exactly but yeah especially in tiny tiny shin pads Vittorio it's been an absolute pleasure Thank you for having me on Thank you for the effort you put into both preparing this podcast and for placing us in a studio for the first time in two years I feel like I've made such a faux pas by dragging you into Spotify HQ.

1:18:00We've really put you at ease over that. I'll invoice you for my train. It's fine. As you should. But yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you. Thanks for coming. Thank you for coming along. I should plug my tour. My PR people will be in order. So are you mid-tour right now? No, I'm about to start. Well, I fly to New York tomorrow to do my one-off tour show in New York. Highest gross thing ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to 80 people in New York. And then I start my UK and Ireland tour in January through to like April. So I'm coming just all over the place. How many dates are you doing, Joe? It's at least 50, but then we're doing like Australia and Europe and then a bigger America tour in May.

1:18:39So like the last tour cracked 150. I'm hoping not to hit so many this time. We've just done an eighth date tour and all of us went quite insane by the end of it. And we were looking in the dressing rooms. they've got all the posters of comedians who've done previous tours and we're looking at how many dates they'll do and just sort of trying to get our heads around doing that many. How do you do it? Well it's not like we don't have to put up with anybody else which is nice. I don't even have a support act on this tour because I'm playing a band which is so stupid. It's you listening to classical music in the dressing room.

1:19:10Dvorak 8th Dvorak's 8th Symphony is a very good post good gig listen. Add it to the playlist. I think that's exactly what Adam needs actually. A bit of classical music just to chill him out. Yeah, there was only two sort of near Saipan moments on our talk, but yeah, we started ourselves. We should never talk to each other like that. Anyway, thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshire. Thank you. Thanks to you, Dave Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.

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