Wimbledon tennis players as footballers & the floodgates threshold

22:01Charlie Eccleshare:Well, that's an important aspect of it. It's not just number of goals in total. It's not just the frequency of the goals, Charlie. But if you score too many goals too early, then the floodgates weren't actually closed in the first place. So there has to be an element of resistance before the floodgates open. Yeah, completely agree. I remember Ron Atkinson with one of his characteristic flourishes talking, I think you said maybe a United Champions League game and him describing it as a floodgates job. And you kind of knew exactly what he meant, even though no one had ever talked about it in those terms.

22:32And yeah, it's one, you need to, you need to work hard, but it's like, okay, now we've got it, it's just going to flow. Like we've worked really hard. They're deflated because their whole game plan was, you know, can we frustrate them? Can we not concede? Now we have conceded or maybe a couple. We're kind of fucked now because we're knackered. We haven't had the ball all game and we've got nothing else. We've got all we came here to do is defend really.

22:57Charlie Eccleshare:OK, so we've got the spirit of this day, but we need to quantify it. What scoreline can you discernibly say that the floodgates are opening or have opened? Surely three nil minimum, maybe even four. three and four together really quickly after the flood after the resolve had been uh had been broken earlier on so then it's three and four and then the floodgates have finally opened now now the floodgates are open now yeah so yes yeah you're holding out maybe for an hour or so but then if it's teams piling on late on relentlessly five nil would be too late charlie as well wouldn't it i would say i'm trying to think do we hear it less now than we used to possibly don't hear it that often um yeah i i think at that point they've already they've they've opened too much because you're kind of saying it isn't often said in a kind of one and you just want an hour for floodgates are gonna rope are gonna open do you speculate on the floodgates opening in the future does that happen a lot i feel like it's it's it's a real time thing and or maybe a retrospective thing and then the floodgates opened but i don't think you start you wouldn't say i think the floodgates are gonna open here i want i think you might just in the way of like it's been a it's been a tough old game but or you know for like a lower league side or you slightly fear the floodgates are going to open now for poor lincoln you know they've been in this game but you know now now it's three nil after 70 and you know man city are chucking on loads of their good players i can i can sort of imagine on on super sunday like in one of those big high profile defeats for man united in recent years that just carrigage could be just sort of like the four could go in like i could just picture of just going, oh, floodgates and just nothing else.

24:32Charlie Eccleshare:It's an incredible shout. Yeah, it deserves, I think, floodgates to be given sort of single word status now. I really want to see this happen. I hope it hasn't died out in that case. Anyway, speaking of water flowing in in disastrous circumstances, this came from Oscar Lynch. It's from the 99 % Invisible podcast. And while the lifeboats were glitching their way down to the water, the Titanic was doing its job. It was sinking well. maybe if anything too well her design had been that she would sink evenly and slowly and that's exactly what titanic does anything your titanic sank too well a construct i will never tire of charlie i don't think yeah you i mean that's uh i'd like to kind of hear more it's quite a subtle sentiment to express in any circumstances if anything x did y almost too well and i think to a proper, someone who's never been exposed to that phrase before, I think they must think, what does it mean?

25:29Charlie Eccleshare:And then slowly they realise, what an incredibly effective way of saying what you're saying. In reality, it would have been better if the Titanic had sort of just bobbed around a bit and not just plummeted straight to the deepest depths of the ocean. Yes, but yeah, impressive deployment of that. Now, as we record, Dave Walker, Euro 2025 is beginning in earnest, in anger well that's that's actually an interesting point because the so we're recording this on wednesday morning the tournament starts today and it's one of those curious situations where the first game at 5 p.m today is iceland against finland but the opening ceremony and the sort of proper curtain raiser is at 8 p.m which is host nation switzerland against norway so there's like sort of this weird game that's kind of be it's it's not really they're not going to do any sort pomp and ceremony around it soft launch yeah exactly it seems a bit of a muddle charlie but so often we see the opening ceremony take place before a game of little consequence or it might not involve the hosts or something so this arrangement i think feels all right get a low key start for administrative purposes but the hosts should really kick things off properly no matter if they're the first game or not so they yeah so it's because they're in the group of the hosts aren't they so they need to just even out the groups um yeah i'm not crazy about it like i do it's like sometimes some euros they'll do just the one game on the open which leaves you kind of like desperate for more and i guess at least this at least this has two and gets rid of that problem yeah can we just take a moment to to look at this tournament on paper though i was reading some previews and stuff last week and like it was really nice sort of throwback to the days when the men's euros had 16 teams and you've sort of we're so used to now these tournaments sort of becoming ever bigger and more teams being added and third place teams and all that and whatever whereas 16 teams is just that really perfect amount and the groups like the draw is like quite ridiculous really so you've got group a switzerland norway iceland finland group b spain portugal belgium italy group c germany poland denmark sweden group d france england netherlands wales like every group has got some sort of national rivalry there are like big nations in there and only two get through from each group so there's no you know there's jeopardy everywhere you look yeah it's perfect blame your paymasters at fifa and uefa for the expansion that you you know you're you're loving with the club world cup this is this is what football used to be like well yeah as a sort of you know subconscious expansionist at heart i'm all right with football getting bigger and bigger but then you look at you look at this laid out in a newspaper supplement dave these four groups of four and then you can still fit the quarter to finals, semifinals and final on the same page and with space to spare.

28:16Charlie Eccleshare:I find it quite refreshing to look at. It's the first time I've ever hankered after a 16-team tournament in my life. This is great. It's complete perfection. Yeah. Like it really is. I was trying to work out. I don't watch international women's football regularly, but even then, no matter what tournament you're presented with four groups of countries, Dave, I'm looking at the fixtures thinking, inevitably, which game am I least interested in out of all of those? You're trying to find the combination of countries that you think, okay, I wouldn't tune into that one. you know i would feel at least compelled to tune into and given that the groups are so perfectly formed i'm guessing poland denmark maybe because that's the do they play in red or white as their home shirt derby that's the only intrigue i can find from that game otherwise i feel like there's just inherent intrigue in all the other matchups whether i know who's playing in those games or not yeah i think normally we're in a different country switzerland against iceland or finland i wouldn't be that bothered about because they're the home nation that always adds something to the games doesn't it and see what the atmosphere is like or whatever and they might I don't think they're particularly good historically but they might be a bit better this time this time out but on the on the subject of Switzerland I was listening to one of the previews on the five live football daily podcast and they had a former Swiss goalkeeper Christina Lehman on the pod and as soon as I heard this I was like sending it to you two straight away a turn of phrase of which I've never heard the like of before but we have a problem we've really have a lack of good players at the age between 23 and 30 so we have the very old ones like Valdi, Bachman and Czernogorcevic which is also known but we have nothing in between so and since Bachman broke away it's kind of Lia Valdi the only Matterhorn we have and the young ones kind of try to build their own little mountains.

30:06Matterhorn that's so good we don't have anything like that no so so matterhorn they're talking about as being in the kind of sweet spot doesn't

30:13Charlie Eccleshare:it mean like a big player like a talismanic titan of a player well that's what i'd think but then but that's not an a like because when i initially were thinking about matter you think like oh that just means like the kind of giant the kind of big influential but that's not really what she's saying isn't she like because it sounds like they do have i would have thought matterhorns some of those kind of veteran really experienced respected players would be more matter been around for ages Yeah, exactly. Immovable. So I'm intrigued how that's come about. Yeah, I do like it. I mean, also, could you extrapolate it to other countries?

30:47Got no Ben Nevis's in the squad. Yeah, we've got no Snowden's. We can't really do it for England. We haven't got any, you know, for me, we haven't got any Scarful Pikes in the squad. Any Lake Districts.

30:59Charlie Eccleshare:We haven't got the peaks. We just don't have it in this country. We're not producing mountains like we used to. Now, I assume the temperatures in Switzerland will ease. But if they don't, Dave, I think this has England wilt in the heat written all over it. I think every England team has a kind of cyclical sort of vulnerability to this sort of thing. And I think this could be the lionesses turn to wilt in the heat. Yeah, but it's not something you immediately think of when you think of Switzerland. You think of sort of alpine, sort of fresh air, nice kind of temperate environment. But yeah, more altitude being the issue.

31:33Yeah, yeah, yeah. such as the playing up the Matterhorn welcome here to the Matterhorn arena

31:41Charlie Eccleshare:on that note character word 2478 on Reddit says what is the ultimate wilted in the heat game for me it's very distant world cup-y maybe England versus Brazil 2002 surely I can't think of an advance on this because England wilting in the heat has to involve them losing so they can toil in the heat they toiled against Paraguay in the heat in 2006 in Frankfurt I was there it says it's 32 degrees it felt more but they still won the game they toured against ecuador in the last 16 and that was hot but they still won so can you advance me a wilted in the heat game other than in brazil that's a really good shout and i do think the wilted should be not just a loss but the loss with which you go out of the tournament um i mean like manaus in 2014 against italy was built uploads wasn't it um it was more the humidity wasn't it but it was it was the humidity yeah the wilted and the humidity what was i mean what about in russia i know it's an evening game but Russia 2018, Weningen lost to Croatia.

32:36Was that really a hot night? Wilt? Is it not? They just played like they were wilting. It wasn't a wilting situation.

32:43Charlie Eccleshare:You can't wilt in the evening in Russia. No, wilting doesn't really work in the evening, does it? It needs to be visibly sunny. I mean, I seem to remember the game. I mean, we'd already done our wilting by this point, but the game against Costa Rica, the third group game in 2014 was in the middle of the day and really just really sunny. And just the whole thing was like, what are we doing? yeah that was that was more pretty surprising would um i mean going back 1970 in mexico in the comeback against germany i mean that was famously like a sweltering world cup wasn't it i mean it's it's less wilting i guess because it's more spectacular but that might have been a bit what happened they just they ran out of energy i mean yeah textbook you know in a football sense textbook wilting england argentina 86 looks like a wilting peter reed sort of jogging after maradona you go look back at the historical weather records apparently the temperature that day was just 20 degrees so who are we to believe england finished quite strongly didn't they they got a goal back nearly got an equalizer yeah so yeah if anything argentina nearly wilted maybe one of the biggest shames about not qualifying for usa 94s it denied us of one of surely what would have been one of the great wiltings of all time a graham taylor england team in in 100 degree heat in pasadena would have been spectacular ruthless stadiums in 1994 players chugging around matt letizia going oh i can't do this this is taylor just shouting at the sun Matt, this is just saying, this is perfectly natural.

34:06Charlie Eccleshare:This is just cyclical, and it happens every few thousand years. Let's move on.

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35:33Charlie Eccleshare:On Reddit, MSRFSM writes in with a picture of two trophies in his hand, and he says, My friend recently won his Sunday League team's Unsung Hero Award, but also the Manager's Player Award, which begs the question, does winning the Manager's Award cancel out the Unsung Hero Award by making him a sung hero, as the manager is literally singing his praises? This is a mad combination of events, Dave, winning a manager's player and unsung hero. I mean, it does imply that they're not very good and that they do a lot of sort of peripheral tasks. The unsungness of it is interesting because at Ribblesdale, we've got the Clubman Award, which is a sort of, in spirit, the same thing as the unsung hero.

36:14It's rewarding non-football activities. But you could still be a really good, one of the better players and do loads of stuff for the club. and do loads of stuff. So rarely does that overlap exist though, doesn't it? Yeah, it is rare. But it's possible. It's definitely possible. Without giving anything away to people who might listen to this podcast, there might be a few contenders in that bracket this season for our awards. But yeah, the manager's player is a funny award though sometimes as well, because sometimes you're not quite sure how to pitch it. You don't really want to give it to the same player that gets the player's player, do you?

36:48Charlie Eccleshare:No. Is it good around the dressing room situation with the manager's player more so than being a genuine star of the team it's sort of him i mean it must be implied isn't it that they are that they've got a great attitude and yeah you know they're a they're a good lad i mean there's a is there a bit of a kind of teacher's pet element that you don't you know you know almost literally yeah yeah so how how much i mean you do want that award but yeah i mean yeah i guess like dave says it's not you don't just want to give it to whoever's going to get the player's player and who's the top scorer yeah which which in a way i think actually kind of in spirit makes it an unsung hero award like you're the managers picking out a player that the plaudits aren't obviously going to but they've watched every game in a you know from a distance and have thought actually you know this player was really important for us this season for whatever reason so i think they need to sort their categories out you've got you've basically got your unsung player which is the manager's player and do something else for one of the smaller ones It's like Macaulay being an unsung hero or something.

37:48Everyone bangs on about it.

37:51Charlie Eccleshare:Share the awards out. I mean, this isn't going on Wikipedia. No one's going to look back and go, oh God, he dominated these categories. Share the awards out. Everyone goes home happy. And then God knows what's going on at Goring Forest FC. Next up, here's a little quiz for you both. This came from Vincent. He says, last week I went on a hike in Banff National Park in Alberta, Canada. Whilst walking up the Johnston Canyon Trail, which Premier League manager did I see walking down? It was Manager X, of course. He could not have looked more Manager X. Full tracksuit, black, and Manager X tight. The tracksuit was not Club Y branded, but it may as well have been.

38:23Charlie Eccleshare:Honestly, he looked like he was taking a quick hike between training sessions. I was thrilled. An EPL manager in the wild. Who do you most picture hiking in Canada? This is a current Premier League manager. Wow. Oh, Scott Parker? I can kind of see Scott Parker doing something like this. Dave, what's your guess? Graham Potter Graham Potter I see both the logic Are we close? Pretty close actually You couldn't be more close without getting it The answer is actually Eddie Howe Of course it's Eddie Howe In his little black tracksuit Hiking down the Johnston Canyon Trail Was Tindall there? Yeah The obvious question He's a tack dog to get people out of the way As Howe meandered down We're definitely going to hear about this Eddie Howe's summer Oh yeah this is long read Go and see how they do things up on the Johnson Canyon Trail.

39:15Charlie Eccleshare:Great to see a different perspective. We saw all sorts of people. It was when he was walking down the Johnson Canyon Trail that he just had something dawned on him. Joe Linton. Could Joe Linton play as an eight? Yeah, different perspective. Nice to have a break, but yeah, good to be back. Speaking of earnest managers, this is a snippet from Keith Andrews' first press conference in charge of Brentford. Something of a clinic, I think, in modern-day rookie manager Unveil Linguistics. I think the way of the footballing world, you always have to expect the interest in good players. I think that's just natural.

39:49Charlie Eccleshare:The way this football club has worked, it's never really been a problem. Players come and players go. That's just the nature of it. Ultimately, I want the best possible players in the building. And we've got phenomenal players in the building that we will continue to improve and develop. and what will be will be on that front. Charlie, I think we're firmly now in the he spoke very well, I thought, era of Premier League managers. Very difficult not to speak well at your opening press conference, but I think this one has all the hallmarks of a young manager in first press conference. First of all, talking about football as a whole and being demonstratively very calm, I think is one of the big things to do in your first press conference, to show sort of worldly wisdom, but also that you're not overawed by the challenge.

40:37yeah a bit bit unflappable yes um you know this is this is football we've all been around it for a long time we know how it works yeah nature of it but no listen you know it's great great squad i'm just excited to get going he missed a trick here i thought he was going to give us a really nice hat trick where he said you know we want fantastic players in the building we've got fantastic players in the building and we're going to keep the players in the building he missed out on the third chance for a building in quick succession the rise of in the building is mad to me

41:07Charlie Eccleshare:it's absolutely mad it's twinned with the rides of out on the grass and you know keith andrews will have out on the grass to come i think when he has players coming back from injury and he sort of rides his first injury crisis but in the building is such a bizarre introduction to the manager sort of phrase book like it's like it's what where did it come from and why yeah i know from having been in the building you know for when you go to the training ground or whatever for press conferences there is quite a um i don't know that really becomes the world of the players and the managers and it's this sort of like holy sanctified place and you know every it's it's i don't know and everything's very well organized over the course of a day and people are constantly very busy and scuttling around and doing meetings and yeah we've heard more in the last five years about where managers offices are located in training complexes than we'd ever heard before like their office sits right next to the director of football's office would you believe so they're in constant communication and their windows oversee the trading grounds they've got a good view of it which is fantastic Andrew's allowing himself a little joke at the end Charlie just to show he's got a bit of levity as well so he's got it all already he spoke very well I thought he gets it also he said about how they've sold he kind of hinted that they've sold lots of players previously I actually don't think of them as massively that club and that's why this summer's been quite striking that suddenly they're all going because obviously Tony went to Saudi but that was a very different kind of thing.

42:33Sorry, Keith, I think you're getting yourself confused with Brighton there, aren't you? You've been in the building a lot more than me, but I think you're kind of just on autopilot there a bit. There haven't been loads of high-profile sales.

42:48Charlie Eccleshare:There you go. Let's stick with Keith Andrews. On the Premier League website, a little background on him, Dave, headlined, Andrew's journey from set-piece guru to Brentford head coach. It got me thinking, what are the gurus, the possible gurus in football set piece guru is definitely now the number one guru yeah you can have a transfer guru but i also think transfer gurus are more about i've seen david ornstein described as a transfer yeah journalism but i feel like yeah i mean should it be should he be a guru of that i mean he just he knows what transfers are happening sometimes but that doesn't make him a transfer guru he's not monchy is he yeah he's a kind of scoop guru yeah i mean we're getting a little bit away from what guru means charlie which is essentially like mentor sort of you know sort of is that what it actually means does it not mean that i think well it's like an it's sort of it was sort of like almost like a somebody with sort of mythical powers but i could be completely wrong that was my yeah it's a hindu spiritual teacher yeah yeah i think in spirit though it does that there is that idea that yeah you're an expert but you yeah you have so much knowledge and you are good at kind of sharing it and you know giving your wisdom to other people in its purest sense there's tactics guru which i've seen applied to michael cox and i suspect he doesn't like tactics guru coaching guru someone who's sort of is seen as the godfather of coaching perhaps like i don't know goose hiddink or something is he a coaching guru bielsa would he also could be a guru i think he's quite yeah guru like could it be used in a sort of pejorative sense and somebody could sort of sneerily label someone as oh we've got all these laptop gurus now that could definitely be said yeah definitely um yes it's a sexy version of merchant isn't it perhaps but yeah um set piece guru uh is definitely a thing let's stick with the coaching world keith leith pointed this out on twitter the other day uh at blackpool managed by steve bruce his assistant is steve agnew his first team coaches are steven clements and Stephen Dobby and his goalkeeping coach is Steve Banks.

44:46Charlie Eccleshare:Five Steves. Steve is such. Steve has definitely moved into the realm of being one of the most popular English coaching names now. You don't get many Steve footballers because they're all very 80s, 90s, but you get loads of coaching Steves. Maybe that's just how time works. I mean, yes, Steve is a bit of a Gary type name, isn't it? It's really dying out, but there's a real sweet spot, clearly. You've got a couple of Stevens with the PHs there, with Clements and Dobby. But I imagine they still will have been called Steve plenty of times throughout their career by their teammates and stuff. But I wonder what the, so the nickname situation, like how they, what are they calling each other?

45:26Charlie Eccleshare:There's got to be a scope for Steve-O. Brucie, Agas, Clem, Dobby, Dobbo and Banksy. Banksy, yeah. One of them might get Steve. One of them might just might get Steve. That's the Steve. I don't know. Great stuff. Here is the hypothetical question for this classic midweek adjudication panel. James McCann writes in, Charlie, says, after the hat-trick debate that kicked all this off, if a club won all its matches 1-0, no more, no less, how long would it take for fans to become bored of the game slash success? You know they would win and when that goal went in, but you know there'd be no more. I mean, it's not an outlandish suggestion.

46:03Charlie Eccleshare:I mean, let's take Manchester City. They were accused of sort of being a little bit boring in the way that they went about their success in the last couple of years. Obviously, they weren't winning 1-0 every time, but that sort of discourse was starting to be generated. But in this very extreme circumstance, how would it go winning every game 1-0? I mean, Spain at the 2010 World Cup won all their knockout games 1-0. You obviously, in this hypothetical, you can't know it's going to happen, obviously, but you get the sense it probably will if it keeps happening. I mean, it depends on the club as well.

46:31I mean, like Real Madrid famously do the thing of, you know, sacking managers when they won the league or the Champions League because it's about style. I'm pretty convinced that from, I think from pretty much every team, Let's say in the Premier League, apart from maybe City, first season, I think you'd be like, I mean, you're winning every game. This is hilarious. Going into a second season, if it happens, I mean, it's a lot of time.

46:57Charlie Eccleshare:Probably the quadruple. Yeah. So I think the first season, no one's complaining. I think once you're into a second season, I mean, it's more the weirdness. I think you'd be kind of like, what the fuck is going on? like this is some sort of like dystopian nightmare where everything's been fixed because this isn't real um so yeah i think once you got into a second season it was because that's a lot of games i think you'd just be getting weirded out and a bit freaked out by it fans would just be they'd be demanding or or calling for the floodgates to be opened marino's chelsea probably came closest to this dave it's sort of his two nil merchants they're basically two nil merchants if he'd had his way and they just won one nil and he could sort of take his players off after 70 minutes and and keep the legs fresh he might well have done it so that's probably the closest we've really seen i mean one nil to the arsenal yeah yeah um i i think in this scenario though so if they've won every game one nil so you've won the carabao cup as well one nil and you're probably winning the title in April.

48:01Yeah. I guess. So you've got less than 10 games left before the end of the season. You're going, we've won the title now. We're still only winning these games 1-0. Can't we just have a bit of fun?

48:10Charlie Eccleshare:That would actually, that would really ram it home, wouldn't it? But then there'd still be the can we go unbeaten all season aspect. So I think that would keep you interested throughout the first season. It's when you've done that and you've won the quadruple. In the knockouts, no one's going to care, right? FA Cups, Champions League, if you're winning those tense games 1-0 all the time, that keeps the excitement up. What about if this team, if a team did this, what would they be called? Because it's a level above from the Invincibles. It's not just being unbeaten. It's winning every single game.

48:38The unconvincibles. The untouchables.

48:42Charlie Eccleshare:The immortals. James McCann, crucially here, Charlie, hasn't given any sort of speculation about the style of play. Maybe they are gallivanting freestyle all-out attack merchants, but they still only win 1-0 all the time. Just keep missing loads of chances. They get back in numbers really quickly. so they are actually end to end but they still only win 1-0 how would you feel about that? I think inertia would set in you know yeah I think I don't think you'd go much longer than a season I mean yeah it's a tricky one because it is just so weird and I think like I think even I mean maybe maybe a smaller club you could go on for longer but the repetitiveness of it would kick in Do you think it would become a sort of existential problem in like the fourth season of this club winning every game 1-0, basically no one's turning up anymore.

49:30There's barely anyone in the stadium.

49:33Charlie Eccleshare:It's like when the Sun, I think it was the Sun offered£10 ,000 to the first player to score against Chelsea in 05-06 and then Villa finally scored. I think it was one of the Moors, Lucor Stefan and he got£10 ,000 presumably either for himself or for charity. God knows what bounty would be placed on the head of that team. Okay, on that thought-provoking note, that brings us to the end of the midweek adjudication panel. Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you. Thanks to you, Dave Walker. Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll be back on Tuesday. See you then.

50:10Every game day, you show up for your team. Now, it's your time. We go V! We go V! Ask your prescriber about We Go V, semaglutide injection 2.4 milligrams, a GLP-1. Call 1-833-4WEGOV or visit wegovy.com to view the medication guide and to learn more about Wegovy. Why wait? We. Go. V.

50:41This episode is brought to you by State Farm. No two football players are exactly alike, and the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm gets to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. And like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

51:25You can get with this or you can get with that.

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