72+ EFL Pod: Forty years of the play-offs

22:35And I'm going to be honest with you, the looks I got from some of the boys, that was on Monday. But what I did was I got into them psychologically into their heads, just, and they were finishing the pens that they were taking. And, but they were proving a point to me that they could score, which is what I wanted to do. The second day I got all the academy staff out, under 18s, under 21s, and the whole staff. And they were like sort of, I've had them waving banners behind the goal. And again, on the Tuesday, the boys were like taking all these kicks. And then on the Wednesday, we went down to Hillsborough and we trained on the pitch.

23:11And this time I'd done it under a chorus of boos, under the tannoy. So I always changed the setting with them and gave them a different focus. So on that Thursday night, when it came to 5-5 and the kicks were awarded, I just looked at them. It was the easiest team talk I said. I said, lads, we're prepared for this. Go and do what you do. Go and finish. Go and end the game. And if you look at the five kicks, what they took, they were absolutely sublime. So when you look back on it, and I suppose that's why afterwards you see me embrace a real staff colleague of mine, Tom Bates, and was there, and I just embraced him and just said, because the work and over those four or five days, the intensity to make sure that everything was possible, that we were going to leave it on the pitch.

23:56was achieved. So there was three points to that. It was number one, could we make the impossible possible in terms of taking the game to extra time? And we did. Then it was the penalty kick. So it was winning it. That was point number two. And then number three was at Wembley. So you do all that, Tommy, lads, and you've still got a game to go at Wembley. And that's why you see there's that bit in the dressing room with me communicating with the boys and Baz, because even though the emotions are there, you still remember that you've got to play you've got a game at Wembley and you've got to come that far you want to finish your job and well you all know the story we've got it done in the end

24:35Aaron Paul:Thank you so much for joining us enjoy the summer we'll catch you next season Yeah no listen thanks for having us on Lyle Tommy Daryl good to see you lads All the best man All the best Have a good summer Thank you Brilliant Darren Moore the man who presided over arguably the greatest ever playoff moment

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25:54Settle down, tough. Sorry, mate. Cricket on Five Live Sport. Oh, I've lived every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds.

26:0472 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul.

26:10Aaron Paul:Celebrating 40 years of the Football League playoffs and time to hear from my regular 72 Plus EFL pod co-host, Joby McEnough. My favourite personal playoff moment has to be my goal for Reading against Cardiff in the second leg of our playoff semifinal. We were already 2-0 up. It was the last few minutes of the game. I picked the ball up in the middle of the park and then just set off on a little bit of a maze. McEnough into the penalty area. What a dribble. What a goal. Now that is pure class. That is worthy of Premier League football from Joby McEnough, who has scored a dream goal here. A third of the night.

26:48The final nail in the coffin, surely, for Cardiff City. Went past one, went past two, into the box, and then just smashed it into the goal. And it was just such a nice feeling, that sort of relief, knowing the job was done. 3-0, we're on our way to Wembley. Wicked, wicked night. And one of the most memorable and iconic moments in the EFL playoffs has to be that Troy Deeney goal. I remember being at home, watching it. Knockout with a penalty to send Leicester to the final. Double save from Almunia. They then go and break up the other end of the pitch. Cross comes in, falls to Dini, smashes it in the back of the net.

27:29Cue scenes, pandemonium. He's in the crowd. Fans are on the pitch. Oh my goodness. Still one of those that you look back on today and can't really believe it happened. Absolutely brilliant.

27:44Aaron Paul:And it's a close run thing on the BBC Sport website. You can vote for your favourite playoff moments on there. A new article called 40 Years of the EFL Playoffs. Dini's goal currently top of the charts with 33 % of the vote, closely followed by the 1998 4-0 playoff final between Charlton and Sunderland with Clive Mendonca scoring a hat-trick and with Charlton Athletic winning on penalties. That has 32 % of the vote, so your vote could make all the difference. Head over to BBC Sport website and rank your top three playoff moments on there. Speaking of that, Dini Go, let's hear from the man himself.

28:16The game against Leicester obviously is the second leg. Everyone forgets the first leg I was suspended for because I got sent off against Leeds United. So I missed the first leg. That was very difficult to deal with. But I also told everybody in my family and anyone who would listen that I would score on that day. Obviously, I didn't know I was going to score a goal of that magnitude. It was a wonderful game. Mati Vigra scored an unbelievable goal with his left foot. we then felt like we were done and finished and we were going to beat them but it also felt like it was going to extra time no matter what happened we were going to win but didn't know how we were going to win and then Mr Knocker as you can imagine just thought he'd have a little dive at that point I'm effing and jeffing as you can imagine thinking we've been cheated there's no way this is going to happen to us and fast forward 20 seconds later I'm scoring a goal and jumping it into my family in the crowd.

29:11It was absolute pandemonium. A moment I wish I could just bottle up and say, right, we can do that again. 40 years of the playoffs. Here's to 40 more years of great memories. See you soon.

29:24Aaron Paul:Watford, well, former Watford striker, Troy Deeney there. Now, for anyone who doesn't remember, the last day of that season was absolutely nuts because Watford could have gone up automatically. It was whole city who took their place in the automatics, but that Watford game against Leeds saw Manuel Armunia go down with an injury pre-game. He was replaced with Jonathan Bond, who was a rookie keeper. Bond then collides with another player and Jack Bonham goes in goal and gets lobbed by Ross McCormack in one of the most baffling moments in Football League history. But then Watford go to the playoffs.

29:55Aaron Paul:Lyle Taylor, arguably the greatest EFL goal ever scored. Everyone knows the commentary. Everyone knows the commentary. It's one of those where you see that 30 seconds, 40 seconds clip and you just think, how? How does that happen one end of the pitch and then the next thing, the ball's in the net, the other end of the pitch? I mean, I've been fortunate enough to have some really good memories in football. Scoring twice in 47 seconds was one of them and that was another one where you just think, how has that been possible? And you watch these moments, knowing the emotion that these people that have scored these goals are going through and it just, it gives you goosebumps and we talk about reliving the playoffs and I've just sat and listened to Darren telling the story of Hillsborough and you catch yourself just smiling from ear to ear because you know exactly what those emotions feel like and how special it is.

30:53And like Troy's just alluded to, you can't bottle it, you can't relive it, you can't have that same feeling again, you can't have that special moment again. but my God, what a feeling it is to be involved in it in the first place.

31:06Aaron Paul:I mean, Tommy Smith, whenever you get a volley set up for you beautifully and you smash it in towards a goal, surely underneath you're like, it's Huck, Dini. You just give it that because everyone remembers it. If not the greatest playoff goal ever scored, it's up there with one of the greatest EFL goals ever scored. That 30 seconds of madness, it just encapsulates everything we love about the Football League. Absolutely it does. And again, we're constantly reminded of these moments, We see them on adverts and again, like Lyle's just said there, when you see the moments back and when you hear people talk about it, the commentary, you just can't help but smile.

31:41That is certainly a moment that will live for a long, long time just because of, again, the commentary, the noise around it, all the celebrations. It was crazy and it's why we love the game. It's why we love the EFL because of the twists and turns and the nature of it. There's nothing more to say about it. It's just an unbelievable moment in time, really. I do have a question, though. Why is it in so many of these playoff campaigns and playoff runs, do we see so many moments that are so special and so otherworldly? It's the jeopardy. Is it throwing caution to the wind and just going, well, if we lose, we lose.

32:23But is that why it creates so many moments?

32:26Aaron Paul:You know all about it. I mean, look at your playoff semifinals against Accrington Stanley. Everything that happened in those games involving Wimbledon and Accrington Stanley, you think about it, Tom Beer scores an unbelievable goal for Wimbledon at Kings Meadow. Keller Roos makes a wonderful save for Wimbledon. The lights go out at Accrington. Piero Mangoya scores a worldie. I mean, come on, Lyle. You can't ask that question. But this is what I'm saying. Why is it that these things happen so frequently in playoffs, but they don't happen during the season in the same way? Jeopardy. As Aaron's just said, Lyle, jeopardy.

33:00I think the playoffs do strange things. You don't need little moments in time. It brings out things in games that you just don't see. You know, like Middlesbrough have played Southampton twice over the course of the season. But these two playoff games, they always throw up something that you just don't particularly see in a normal season. And I think the key word in it is, as Aaron's just said, is jeopardy.

33:18Aaron Paul:Let's get another voice note from one of the EFL's most well-known characters. He took Hull City up to the Premier League in 2008. He also won the playoffs on penalties with Southend United in 2015. it's Phil Brown.

33:59Dean Winders puts Hull City into the league in his 40th year. The man from Hull does the job for his hometown club. Got to be the greatest all-time. Fantastic goal from Dean Winders. Can't be far off, by the way, with the next one. And again, it's personal. When we beat Wickham Wanderers, it's probably my favourite moment of all time when Gareth Iainsworth said, come on Brownie, penalty shootout let's just hold each other's hands arm in arm, whatever the case may be and we'll take whatever the football gods give us and that in my opinion was my finest moment ever we actually won that day South End United, we went to the 1st Division and I think Garrett stayed in the 2nd Division for a number of years but fabulous man, fabulous moment one of them great moments that happen in playoffs and only playoffs when the pressure cooker has been cranked up to the highest level.

35:02I'll speak to you soon, Aaron. I'm sure you have got plenty.

35:06Aaron Paul:Yes, Sam Wood scoring the opener for Wickham in that final with a free kick. And then it was Joe Piggott who equalised the Southend as it went to penalties. Dan Bentley now of Wolverhampton Wanderers in goal for Southend United. What a moment that was for Southend United. Just start on that goal, by the way. you can read more about the Dean Windass goal for Phil Brown's Hull City on the BBC Sport website. The article titled 40 years of the playoffs. Dean Windass at 39 years of age. Hull born and bred popping up with the winner and taking his hometown club up to the Premier League. Daryl, just talking about that goal as we were listening to Phil talk about it.

35:44Aaron Paul:The technique from Dean Windass was exemplary. Using all of his 39 years to lean back, get himself a yard. It wasn't even a yard, it was a couple of mil, wasn't it? and just strike the ball so cleanly into the net. And the beauty of it is the Wembley camera angle catches it perfectly. Yeah, and do you know what, as well, I can't thank him enough because I get a lot of stick-off Bristol City fans. I really do with being a gas head and him scoring that goal. But like you said, he sort of leant back into it. Keeping that down is so, so difficult. And to be fair, Dino, he always used to carry a few pounds, and that might have helped him with that strike to be fair.

36:21Centre of gravity?

36:23Aaron Paul:Yeah. Something like that. I mean, we talk about Phil Brown and Gareth Ainsworth on the halfway line. It was the first player final I ever covered for hospital radio back then. And I saw it and it's something incredible because this is Wembley. This is it. This is League One. This is Wickham Wanderers who survived on goal difference, nearly relegated out of the Football League the year before. But Gareth Ainsworth and Phil Brown deciding to sort of go arm in arm for penalties was incredible. It's just something you wouldn't even think of seeing, is it? It's football so tribal. Football is so polarising.

36:59I think to have a moment like that is, I think it shows exactly what football really is at the bottom of it all.

37:08Aaron Paul:Alex Bruce played for Hull as they reached the 2016 playoff final against Sheffield Wednesday. And he says their winning goal at Wembley goes down as his top playoff memory. I'm going to pick Modi Army's goal for Hull City when we got promoted. That was a great moment for me personally. and even as a Manchester United fan growing up, one that sticks in my mind straight away, just thinking off the top of my head, Paul Dickhoff for Man City when he smashed that one into the roof of the net to beat Gillingham in the playoff final at Wembley as well, I think it was. So, yeah, they're the two memories that stand out for me.

37:45Hope all's well.

37:46Aaron Paul:That Man City game, Man City-Gillingham game, is mentioned on the BBC Sport website. New article all about 40 years of the playoffs, your favourite moments. It's 1999. Man City going up from the third tier. 2-0 down against Tony Pulis' Gillingham going into the 90th minute. Late drama, though, with goals from Kevin Horlock and Paul Dickhoff taking it to penalties. There was a blue moon over the old Wembley that night. Do you know what, though? I don't think... I mean, Dickhoff's goal was great and the celebration was iconic. Sliding down on his knees and you see the beautiful kits made by Kappa then.

38:17Aaron Paul:Nicky Weaver's celebration for the penalties. He's my old boot boy. What's he really? He was my boot boy when I was at Mansfield. Young keeper. Yeah, actually, Man City signed him. We got beat, I think it was 7-0 in a game against Notts Forest in a pre-season game. And the City scout was there and he signed him on that because it could have been about 15-0. But Nicky Weaver running her off with the fans. I mean, he's shown some pace that day, hasn't he? I mean, old Wembley, of course, had that famous situation where it had the sand pits behind it and you had to cross over the sand pit to get to the dressing room.

38:49Aaron Paul:But what Weaver does is he hops over and then realises it's quite the distance to the fans. And so he waits and calls all his colleagues to come and he's waving and calling them over. But it's an incredible celebration. And what a moment of joy for Man City and Joe Royal after what had been a real difficult couple of seasons for them. Yes, exactly that. I mean, for some of the younger listeners to mention Manchester City and Gillingham in the same game is a bit of a strange one. But no, it's these things and these tiny little moments and the people that have lived them that makes all of this so special.

39:23Aaron Paul:I had one Manchester City fan in my class in school. That was in 1999. I was in primary school. I went to school in Wembley. Natasha, and she was obsessed with Danny Teato. Obsessed with Danny Teato. Remember it, just wearing that beautiful Manchester City kit. But let's get another voice note. Hi, fellas. Sam Parkin here. My favourite playoff moment from my own career. I'm going to have to be creative because I only had one unsuccessful playoff campaign, which ended in the heartbreak of penalties and also with the loss of my two front teeth. So I'm going to give it the short shrift that it deserves.

39:56And my favourite playoff memory would have to be growing up as a QPR fan, going to Wembley with my mates and some family members. Not the best game that I've seen by any stretch. QPR against Derby County. Derby did enough to win two or three matches in terms of chances. But the moment, the glorious moment, Junior Hoylet crossing from the right-hand side. Richard Keough, poor Richard Keough with a mistake and Bobby Zamora with a wonderful left-footed finish. Hoylet's lunged in. Oh, he's done very well. He's won it by the byline. Derby have got lots of defenders back. Oh, they've dealt with it terribly.

40:32And Bobby Zamora scores the goal that might well put Queen's Park Rangers into the Premier League next season. 1-0 QPR back in the Premier League. Great times.

40:45Aaron Paul:Final scores, the EFL pundit, Sam Parkin. Just more on Sam's teeth, as I know we're all asking the same question. Swindon losing to Brighton in the League One playoffs in 2004. Sam says he had two teeth kicked out during the first half, found them on the pitch, put them in milk, finished the full 90 minutes, and then went to a Brighton hospital in his kit to get them shoved back in. They don't make them like they used to, built differently. He put them in milk, did you just say, Aaron? am I missing am I missing something here or what I don't I mean I don't know I don't know it's incredible it's incredible isn't it Robert Lester Zamora with the goal for Queen's Park Rangers what a finish it was Lyle Taylor and don't forget QPR played half an hour of that game down to 10 men Gary O 'Neill sent off oh wow see these are the things you forget in these playoff campaigns in these moments wow Tommy what a moment for Queen's Park Rangers how they wish they could have one of them again yeah but you know what makes it for me Aaron is the commentary the commentary is brilliant isn't it I think in these moments again I'll go back to the Watford one with Deeney and you know reference that and I think the commentators make these moments what they are really don't they that's what makes it so special I think here's another voice note from final scores Aaron McLean my favourite moment from any playoffs has to be 2008, Dean Windas for Hull City, scoring that incredible volley.

42:16Obviously, having played for Hull City now and seeing that they're in the final, I'll be at Wembley watching them. That is just an iconic moment. And as a footballer, I always looked and thought, those are the types of moments that I hope that I get. I'd scored the opening goal of the 2004 National League. playoff final, playing for all the shots against Shrewsbury. And it was my opportunity after getting released from Leyton Orient to get back into the Football League. Unfortunately, Shrewsbury scoring equaliser. I have to come off with cramp embarrassingly and it goes to penalties. We end up losing.

42:58And that was my first taste of the heartache that the playoffs brings. but it gave me that burning desire to not go through the playoffs and get all my promotions. So yeah, my standout is definitely Dean Wenders for Hull City.

43:15Aaron Paul:Millwall missed out on a place in the playoff finals. They were beaten by Hull City last night. Let's hear from Lions midfielder Massimo Luongo and get his top playoff moments. Evening, guys. My favourite playoff moment, personally, would be the Swindon-Sheffield United playoff semifinal. That finished 5-5. I was part of the Swindon team. I got to Wembley, but that game was incredible. Yeah, but overall, I would say of all time, I don't think you can beat the Sheffield Wednesday comeback against Peterborough. Yeah, that was incredible. That was, to take it all the way into penalties as well, was I think my favourite of all time.

43:56Aaron Paul:That Swindon-Sheffield United game, if you ever suffer from insomnia, Lyle's nodding his head because he knows exactly what it is. I'd imagine you've been up with a baby a couple of times where it's on television most nights. You can always usually catch that game. It was actually, I was reminded of that game quite recently because our new manager at Chelmsford is Mark Cooper. And he said to me, he said, do you remember when I first met you, Lyle? I had gone, I lived literally over the road from the hotel that the Swindon boys were staying in. And I'd gone over to see Nathan Byrne. and the manager came and introduced himself and he reminded me of that and then of that game.

44:36And it's like, wow, you're always so close to these things, but you forget them and you're so far away and something like that just triggers it and you're back there again.

44:46Aaron Paul:In the playoffs next season are being expanded. Clubs have voted to widen up the championship playoff berths from four to six teams, similar to National League. So teams finishing from third to eighth will compete for promotion to the Premier League. Only in the championship for now. Lyle Taylor, your thoughts? I don't like if I'm going to put a very simple answer to it. I think the current system is fantastic. It gives us great moments. It gives us so many talking points. I don't really understand why if it isn't broken, it must be fixed. just looking at some comments from managers Birmingham manager Chris Davis likes it says it gives more chances to teams like us for example this season it would make for a close situation for us Derby head coach Sean Eustice is in favour it'll probably help teams who have had a lot of injuries and smaller squads to keep fighting to the end of the season Neil Warnock has said for mid-table teams after Christmas it gives you more impetus Gary Rowett relegate with Leicester City this season says you can argue if a team 6th finishes 25 points behind team 3 should they have a chance to go up the game is in danger of becoming less recognisable with so many changes being made all the time.

45:57Aaron Paul:The EFL say the decision is intended to increase the number of competitive fixtures during the closing stages of the campaign. Tommy, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is that your way of thinking? Well, if you remember rightly, Aaron, I think we discussed this on a pod earlier in the season. You sort of asked me the question and I'll be honest with you. I can sort of see, I still stand by it. I'm with Lyle and I stand by what I said earlier in the season. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think we all love the playoffs. We've discussed it in great detail tonight of what joy it brings. I'm just a little bit unsure why it would need to be changed.

46:28Again, it gives more teams an opportunity to compete, which I get. But I can't help but feel like some of the teams that will end up competing could have a chance against the Premier League over a team who potentially finishes third and amasses an enormous amount of points. That's where it just doesn't sit right with me. I think back to Sheffield United last season, just missing out on the automatics and then obviously losing their place in the playoff final to Sunderland. So I don't know how that sits with me if a team who finished in eighth could actually be in the Premier League over a team who finishes in third.

46:57When we spoke about this earlier in the season, I had a look, it might mean chat GPT or something like that. I asked it to compile the finishing points totals of the teams in third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and then eighth. So to see what the points difference would potentially be. And I think that average number of points, it was somewhere around 20 points from third to sixth. And if you then extrapolate that, move a little bit further out, if you're going down to eighth, you could find yourself. I mean, we could be talking 10, 11 wins away from the team who finishes third. Now, are you then therefore deserving of being in the same postseason competition as that team?

47:42No. This is a meritocracy.

47:44Aaron Paul:I need a one word on. Yes or no, you in favour? Manager's hat, yes. There you go. That's it for this episode of the Football Daily. The next one will be a special edition of the Commentator's View. It's John Murray, Ian Dennis and Annie. Bruce Ball sit down with Kelly Cates to discuss their matches of the season. As for us here on 72 Plus, remember our WhatsApp number if you want to drop us a message or a voice note. 08000 289 369. That's 08000 289 369. We'll be back next week with another episode. Catch you then.

48:21So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league. This is Five Live Sports. Little eyes to the lights and foot to the floor. Tivoli! This is not to stop out. Everyone standing around the 18th green. Overhead kick! What is sensational! He shows to the centre and down to it! Oh, the right hand and the former champion is down. It's extraordinary stuff. They've done a show for us tonight. He gets on his knees and kisses the turf. Five Live Sports. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. This is the full time window. Listen on BBC Sounds.