72+ EFL Pod: Ipswich up & Wood off to Wembley

21:14And ultimately, and I'm not for a second saying Rich is trying to say he's not responsible at all. It's everybody's situation at that football club. You as the manager, some players have left. You talk about leadership. Omar Beckles going out the door was a real eye-opener for me because he is that guy. He is the leader. he'll get the team together he'll try and galvanise the group so I was really surprised with that one and ultimately he's got to have a chat with the recruitment team get the right personnel in well it's funny

21:40Aaron Paul:you mentioned the recruitment team he said he doesn't want to go through the same erratic process as last year having 100 Zoom calls in six weeks I understand that but I also think you know having had so many lone players you never fall in love with one firstly yeah but you've got to go and replace him you've got to go and supplement your squad properly yeah you do but again And I get his point in that regard. And it has been a little bit like that over the last few years, almost waiting until the last knock-ins to see what lone players we can pick up. That is normally a later process. For me, you go and get your sort of four, five, six.

22:13We call them generals. We call them players that are going to go and play the majority of the games. Get them in the door as early as you can. So they have a full pre-season. Get to understand what the manager wants. And you can't keep that. Always have a slow start to the season. Always. And then it's then playing catch-up. And they've been able to do that over recent years. this year is too much to ask and then you end up getting into this situation so I think between everyone at the football club there's got to be a little bit more joined up thinking when it comes to that recruitment this is an example of what can go wrong and nearly went very wrong if you don't get it sorted early enough but as I said ultimately everyone there is is responsible and um they need to do a lot better than this because this was a very close scrape in the end I saw someone linking

22:57Aaron Paul:him and asking if he'd be a good fit for the Leicester job obviously played for the football club got a connection with the football club I wonder yeah and I don't want to talk people out of a job particularly at a club that I obviously a club that I know very well and always want to do well um it just feels he may he's a bit frustrated at times Richie I think he's very ambitious he wants to manage at the highest level he can maybe he feels that will give him a better opportunity if there's anything in it. Obviously, it's purely speculation at the moment, but could I see that as a fit? Yeah. Five Live Sports.

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24:5272 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McEnough.

24:58Aaron Paul:Joining the likes of Leighton Orient in League One next season at Cambridge United, third place secured in League Two. Cambridge bouncing back at the first time of asking their head coach. Super Neil Harris is with us. How are you, Neil? I'm very good, Aaron. Thank you, Joe. Morning. I'm glad you said hello to me, Neil, because we've had a few people writing in and Aaron's getting all the credit for this show. but great to hear from you mate and big congrats congratulations boss thank you thank you guys yeah it was I've got to be honest it was the toughest one so far as player and manager and it was the biggest relief it was a horrible couple of hours leading to the final whistle very difficult to navigate through that couple of hours when there's so many permutations involved was that what was the difficult part about it because you know again going into that game and you're looking over your shoulders and I know there's this sort of thing in the game of that, just concentrate on yourself.

25:50It's impossible, isn't it? On the last day where so much can, as you say, go against you or you're looking at other teams and how they're doing, is that what makes it that sort of anxiety and that nervousness around the place? When it's a cup final or a player final, you're just there in that moment. It's just two teams finding out. When is it like a title shootout and there's three teams involved at three different parts of the country? It's completely different. We can listen to the scores elsewhere and update phones, etc but anyone can score at any given moment so i didn't know if it's a stick or twist so just listen to richie there and then joke like you're right with you talk about generals in the change room you know but that clarity there and that that preciseness same with richie richie's sort of right in what he's saying but and that experience leads him to say that my experience leads me to say to you guys now i didn't know what to do in the last 10 minutes because if i go for it, if I go for it and we try and score to win the game to get promoted and we concede we look stupid and we've thrown it away if we sit back and don't go for it and the opponent's scored, which we nearly did in the last minute then I wouldn't figure myself either, it's quite helpless on the sideline which is in my 600 games as a manager it's probably one of only two or three times in my career that I've done it

27:10Aaron Paul:How do you reflect on the season and a half? Because obviously you look relegated last year and naturally that was frustrating. You came in sort of February. How do you rebuild that squad? And what was it like having to, well, try to put your own stamp on it? Well, I think at the time when I took the job back again at Cambridge, it was for a couple of reasons. One, I felt like I owed the football club because I'd left the year before to go back to Millwall. And I think the second one was I wanted to go in. It surprised a lot of people probably. I think Job was one of them. It was a bit surprised when I went back in at the timing.

27:47But I went back in because I needed to see it live. I knew I was going to get relegated. I couldn't do anything. No one would have done anything about it. I had to see the culture. I had to see the players in the building. I had to assess all of it, the staff, the structure above and around me. And I wanted to live it for a couple of months. So we had a head start this season on doing that, which doesn't guarantee you get a fast start. And we didn't. We had to change a lot of players, let 20 of players go in the summer. so we had to make some big changes on and off the pitch but it gave us a platform to do it from middle of February, myself and Mark Bonner to start proceedings so that was important that when we did go down I knew what I was inheriting and who I was inheriting and who I thought could help drag us forward, who were going to be my generals in the change room, who was going to be the ones that need leading, where do we need more pace where do I need more quality in certain areas.

28:39And in terms of someone you've just mentioned there, Mark Bonner that I wanted to pick your brains on because it's an interesting situation. Obviously, a director of football in terms of someone who's actually managed the club very, very recently. Has that been a huge help, having someone who's got that real understanding of your job and the challenges that you face on a day-to-day basis? Because clearly, it's worked out a treat. Jobe, he's a class act, class guy. And it does really help that he's managed our football club and he lives in Cambridge. That's really key. He knows a lot of people in the area just on a day-to-day basis.

29:21He deals with a lot of things around me so I don't have to, which is really important in the modern game. He knows what the culture should be at the football club. I just thought when he called me back in February last year and said, look, I might be going to start a football. I need an experienced manager. Do you fancy it? We literally met, had a couple of hours for coffee and we were just so aligned. We got on well anyway. off the pitch. And we were just so aligned in how we saw the game, how the team should go, what staffing should look like, how we deal with scenarios. But until you get going, Job, you don't know.

29:52But it's been phenomenal. It's just been seamless in so many ways. He's a really good man and he should take credit falls on the players, obviously, and then the manager gets the praise. But he should be taking a huge amount of praise for what he's achieved this season.

30:07Aaron Paul:In terms of this season, the run of form from November to March was nothing short of spectacular. Beaten once, or if you want to look at it from a bigger perspective, beaten three times only from November all the way to the end of the season. Yeah. That's highly impressive. Yeah. We got beat at Notch County, I think, at the end of October. And we weren't very good. I'm not sure we lost the game, but I just didn't like it. And for the first time in my career, I decided that I was going to play two shapes at any given moment. So took a little bit of a focus back onto the coaching pitch and the tactical side of it and trying to teach the players the secondary shape in the space of a couple of week period whilst games are going on wasn't easy.

30:54But blend on the experience of myself and Adam Barrett to support and we didn't, that's what was really key over that period, over that 31 game period. to only lose three times was down to the players' ability to adjust at any given moment to tactical changes. Just on that, Neil, I mean, it's fascinating to hear that because we see so many managers, coaches, that just have almost one way of doing it. And I think that is the key to getting promotions. You've got to find different ways, whether it is tactically, to find a way through games. But I've got to touch on the defensive side of it. 33 goals conceded in most clean sheets, 20.

31:31I mean, that is an incredible feat. in a league, again, that I've been in where defenders do make mistakes. We see people trying to play out or we see people not getting the right contact on clearances, people not concentrating on set pieces. I mean, that is phenomenal. What is that? Is that something you've really stressed to the players? Is that something you overly work on? How have you done it? Because it's just such an incredible number at the end of the season. Yeah, it is. When I look back now, we knew going through the season it was important, but looking back now, looking at three goals is quite phenomenal for the group.

32:06Firstly, credit the players for their development, the coaching staff. Adam Barrett, again, who's just got so much experience as a centre-half in the EFL, but also then as a coach as well, an assistant head coach. And then just the culture that we create, the mentality is, you know, we give nothing away, is that we defend as a team, starting at the top line, there's the centre-forward pressing. We have a structure on how we want to press. But while we've done that and been so reliable defensively, We've also found a way to dominate games in the second half of the season and create chance after chance.

32:38And probably then disappointment is that it took us so long to get promoted because we should have been promoted in April, really, in March, if we took the chances that we create so openly and freely.

32:49Aaron Paul:I know you are someone who likes to be ultra-focused on what they do. How do you get downtime, though, this summer? Where are you going? What are you doing? Obviously, there's a small matter of Millwall in the playoffs as well, I'm sure you'll have both eyes on. But what does the summer look like for you, Neil? Aaron, that is a brilliantly timed question because it's twofold to it. Firstly, I'm taking my wife away tomorrow for four days to say thank you for putting up with me this year. So that's first and it's important that I mention Claire and sort of all us managers out there, we have to appreciate that the people put up with us, our children and our wives.

33:30So we're going to pop away tomorrow. After that, I'm actually going to climb a mountain in Morocco for six days with nine of our best friends. It's my friend's 50th, and we've had it planned all year. And I've got to be honest, it has been a driving force for me all season because if we'd been in the playoffs, I wouldn't be climbing a mountain. So it's driven me and my friends, some of them came up to the last game of the season at Crewe and it was great to be able to celebrate with them. So that's really important to me, sort of my focus. on the flip side of that I was in the ground yesterday having end of season retain and release meetings with players recruitment doesn't stop as we know and goes on and really interesting to listen to Rich's point there about Zooms, having 100 Zooms it's the modern world it's the modern way, we have to do it and so even though I'll be away I'll still be Zooming into meetings with potential targets, recruitment team etc and then you know so that'd be a huge part of it come on you're telling me you don't

34:33Aaron Paul:miss the old you know service station meeting you know the little chef right do you know what this is where i show my age and joe we don't think we're particularly old but your gray beard obviously shows it at times as does mine so so we we are getting older we are becoming the old school part of the modern day football. So yes, Aaron, I do still love the coffee shop, looking a player in the eye. I was going to say, you can't beat that, Neil, can you? You get a sense of that player, the character, does he really fancy it? Does he really want to work with me? Whereas I think it can be quite sterilised when someone's sending over a stat pack and like you say, you're speaking over a Zoom call.

35:13Aaron Paul:Is he willing to come to the back end of nowhere for a lukewarm cup or something? Yeah. you're calling ethic back end of nowhere Aaron is that where you hold that that's where you hold somewhere to the street that you go get seen by fans and stuff this is the other thing with social media these days do you know what I mean do you know what I do I like to look at the player in the eye I like to have that chemistry with them I'm fine with the zooms we have to do it it's part of the modern day football you know agents demand it with the players so we do it but look in the player in the eye and whether that's in a service station whether that's in a coffee shop whether it's at the training ground or I'm happy to go to the house I'll come to you you know wife, kids in I'll come and have a cup of tea with you that's me my personality so when I talk about if anyone saw my post-match video in the changing room of my speech after the game talking about proper people and the terminology of the geezer that's what I like I like to look somebody in the eye and say chaps if you want to come and play for me this is what I am and who I am do you want to come and be part of it and if so I'd love to have you but I want to meet you first Will you be back for May the 23rd?

36:20Aaron Paul:Just out of interest? Absolutely 1 million percent and I'm hoping I'm watching the Lions at Wembley on that day I will be at the second leg I will be at the den We'll see you there I'll be there for that So yeah I do wish them the best and I will be a huge supporter obviously I mean if you're kind enough I'd love to get my Harris King Margul t-shirt delivered so if you want to bring it with you quite the range you've got going on there Neil yeah yeah I've seen a few bits got a t-shirt we got a pillow and we got the mugs mate oh Joby you'd love the pillow I'd like a little pillow you'd be resting well after that season Neil I've got to say Joby is that your pillow for when you're listening to Aaron for a couple of hours you're not off I'm glad you got that it's time for you to go now isn't it Neil love that I've had a pop of Joby's beard I've got to have a pop of you as well Aaron there you go Neil it's such a joy talking to you and obviously look you know can't wait to have you on next season brilliant show you are the man see you at the Den Monday night will do look forward to it go well mate enjoy your break good luck with the mountain climbing yeah good luck Cambridge boss Neil Harris with us it's a big weekend coming up in the race to reach the Football League's National League Player Final 3 o 'clock Sunday as Boreham Wood take on Rochdale at Wembley the Boreham Wood boss Luke Garrard is with us on 72 plus how are you Luke?

37:47Aaron Paul:Very well thank you lads hope you're well. Yeah all good what's the secret what what has gone on this season with Boreham Wood because obviously look the club was relegated a couple of seasons ago down into the National League South coming back you left the club you came back it's been a a topsy-turvy couple of years. 100 % mate um them two years ago So relegating Bournemouth really hurt me. If anyone was to know, this is my club, mate. And unfortunately, I left the club some dark times in that six months, not having a job. It was a reset for me. Went away, went and worked at my craft, went and spoke to a lot of good managers, went in a lot of good buildings.

38:28And when I returned, my language changed. There was a different mindset to me. I was very negative in the build-up to the relegation season. and to come back in the building 16 months ago now, the mindset was all about getting back to the National League and then I say it right from the jump at the start of the season, I said to the boys, we have enough to get promoted and I genuinely believed it, spoke it throughout all season, set the seed and thankfully now we're at Wembley with 90 minutes, 120 minutes or penalties away from achieving that goal. Luke, just have to have a word about, I mean, the table when you look at it, We saw the last day, you know, York and Rochdale, unbelievable scenes and a titanic battle at the top.

39:11I mean, you guys finished in fourth, 90 points, Carlisle on 95. I mean, that is just an incredible season for yourselves. What is it about this league that, you know, makes it what it is in terms of that top end and those clubs that are accumulating the numbers that you are and the teams above you did? so I worked it out that we had won three leagues in the last 12-13 years with 90 points obviously what went on with Wrexham and Notts County a few years back was incredible and to see Rochdale and York have a proper ding-dong on the last day of the season to achieve what York achieved and Rochdale with the amount of points is incredible for us to get 90 points is sorry to bore you is 1.95 points per game in a calendar year that normally wins you a division for us though that season's done I spoke at length after the game against Carlisle it's a two part season for us one of our seasons we accumulated 90 points won the National Cup got to the third round of the FA Cup but that's done now our aim was to be successful in this second part of the season we're two thirds of the way through that and I keep saying to the group what does the success look like now I don't want to look back and say we got 90 points So I want to go to Wembley and win.

40:29Aaron Paul:Are you telling me that you don't scream on the sidelines? Because I remember the first game I came to see you was in the FA Cup. And I was put between the dugouts. You know, like that sort of weird walkway between the two dugouts. And all I was told is you need to just listen out to this manager because he's got quite the reputation. I mean, you had a reputation back then for being energetic and vociferous. Has that changed fully? Not fully. I'll be lying to say it's changed fully. I'm working on that, mate. I do feel the game's evolving. And if I don't evolve with it, I get left behind. The world's changed.

41:05This isn't about just football. The world's changed. And if I feel that I'm going to drive standards through whacking people with sticks continuously, it's not going to work. So I have to drive people with the carrot and show them the way as such. But I'll use it as a tool. You'll see me in the Forest Green game later stages of the game. I may get after a couple just to engage the right ones. but I did say in terms of the group before the Carlisle game, Tamir and me, because I do feel calm. I do feel that my preparation's been really, really good. You don't rise to the occasion, you always fall to the level of prep and I feel that's been the case in these playoffs.

41:41Aaron Paul:It was the Southend game and Kabongo Shimango got it from you. Fully got it from you. It's quite amusing. There'll be a long list of players that got it from Luke Garrard. I think I've got it on the opposition side playing against these teams actually. What's it like going up against Luke? Oh, you know one thing I've got to say, and I think this is, it's a real balance in that, Luke, because you don't want to lose that fire, that passion that clearly you have, and you transmit onto your team any time you went and played against Boreham, with home or away, but particularly down there, you knew you had to be absolutely at it individually and as a team to get something from it, because they would just run over you otherwise.

42:20And a lot of that comes from Luke driving that from the sideline. And so, you know, I think players are different now. You know, you've been there a long time. How you, like you say, connect, how you engage, how you get the best out of players has changed. And obviously, I'm glad to see that that is something that you're doing as well. But don't lose all of it, mate. I just want to pick up on that, obviously, from your prior experience. And listen, I know this is a National League, but I had a few playoff runs that didn't go as successful as I would have liked. I know you did get up last year.

42:51What have you learned from maybe some of those disappointments along the way that might help you just take that extra step and get Borenwood into the football league for the first time? I think pain shapes you, Joby. I think that for me, a big thing that 17-18 season was my best day and my worst day. I walked my three-year-old out at Wembley as a mascot and I wanted the time to stop there because I knew what the end result was. but then things shape me. Then they drive me. Obviously the Notts County hurt when they scored in the 120th minute to go 3-2. These are all things, these are all life lessons that I've learned hugely.

43:27The success last year, it was my messaging in the lead up to the game that I felt was key. And I think that that's not just driven by me, that's driven by everyone, the staff, the players. We have our cultural architects within this group. We have four or five of them that I lean on because I do feel a good change room is player-led and manager-driven. So that, for me, is where I lean on the Femmiel Assam. I have to shout him out because he's 35, and I said to him this morning at breakfast, he was gone after 90 minutes, and then so inking him for the last half hour against Carlisle, and he says it's the desire to be successful, Gaffer.

44:03And I look at that and go, that's all I need. I've not done a team talk in the last two games, Jobes. It's not saying that I feel I need to do. At times, I'm having to calm the group down. I said to him today in a team meeting I want them to find calmness in chaos because there's going to be households that are going to be excited, right? Mums and dads are going to be excited there's staff that are excited we need to be calm we're going to Wembley for business we're going there early this is something that I've learned I've spoken to 10 managers over the weekends and asked for their experiences of going there these are things that I didn't do previously because I need to lean on them things but I'm going there planned and prepared and yeah I'm looking forward to putting the haunt of 17-18 season to bed.

44:46Aaron Paul:You going there the day before, letting players do their walk around before? We're going there earlier. I've told them today I want no dramas on tickets. I don't want no dramas on Wembley. We're going literally. Anyone discusses anything from Friday onwards, they'll be getting fined because it's another game of football. It just so happens to be at Wembley. We'll be planned. We'll be prepared. They need to understand the occasion. But we're ready. We'll be ready come 2pm. Isn't it a three o 'clock kickoff? I don't know. I thought it was two. It's three. Love that. Listen, they're dialed in, mate.

45:20They are dialed in, mate. Two o 'clock. An hour early. A go, mate. You lot be ready. Fantastic.

45:26Aaron Paul:Luke, best of luck. Hoping to see you there Sunday. Really good luck. This could be an incredible story. Thank you, lads. All the best, mate. Pleasure. Luke Garrard, the Boreham Wood boss with us. It's a special day. You know, the National League final. the best moment for me is Byron Webster taking that penalty you know he's got this look he's like Byron Webster's like a cartoon this is the Bromley captain by the way he's retiring he looks like a cartoon you know like the typical like naughty school kid cartoon and he does this thing where he's looking at the goalkeeper and he goes like that with his eyebrows do you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah but the best minute moment is I'm sat there watching then I'm going he's wearing an EFL captain's armband I'm like, what's he doing?

46:10Aaron Paul:And then I'm like, you can't do that. You can't do that. Mate. Speak it into existence. He could do it. Wow. It's fantastic. I'm really, really glad Luke mentioned Femi Ilisamni. I played against him on a number of occasions. He really does epitomise, as he said, 35 years of age, still going, still leading. And these are the moments, these are the games that, like you say, that Byron Webster will look back on, despite everything else they've gone on to achieve as a club. as that is an iconic, pivotal moment for that football club that will be remembered forever. And you look at how well Bromley have done since they've got up.

46:44There's no reason why Boreham can't replicate that. It's one last step for them. My local club, I'm only down the road, and so I've crossed paths with Luke on a number of occasions. So really hoping it's a really positive day for them and just for the National League. Great for them to have the spotlight, get that bit of shine, which sometimes does go under the radar with the amount of football we've got throughout the pyramid in this country. So I think we've already seen that battle for the top place in the division be an unbelievable story. I think this final could do just the same.

47:17Aaron Paul:Can't wait for it. The National League final, three o 'clock Sunday updates into five live sport and of course on the BBC Sport website and app. That is it for this episode of the Football Daily. Remember you can listen to the latest news and views from every EFL club on the BBC Sounds app. Just search your club's name. Make sure you hit subscribe so you get notified whenever something new drops. That's for us here on 72 Plus. We'll be back next week. Catch you there. You ever had anything manufactured with your face on it? Did you have any of those bobbleheads? What are they called? Do you know those strikers bobblehead things?

47:53Yeah, I don't think I did. No, just the sort of match attack cards from back in the day. And I dug a couple of them out actually from the Premier League the other day and my kids are like, oh my gosh, is this all you were rated? Like 65? I mean, you weren't very good, were you? So I'm like, all right, cheers, lads. At least I got a shiny. Got a nice silver shiny from the match attacks back in the day.

48:12Aaron Paul:Is that when you're a wedding? Yeah. Yeah, star man. Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman, welcome to the... Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is. And it's a remarkable team! And it's remarkable women! We want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup. It's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app.