In short
The episode centers on the EFL disciplinary decision to expel Southampton from the Championship playoffs after they admitted to spying on multiple opponents. Middlesbrough are reinstated and will play Hull in the Wembley final. Southampton’s appeal is underway, with the panel expected to review whether the punishment is too harsh.
Guests
Joby McAnuff (former professional footballer, EFL experience; discusses integrity and how cheating undermines playoff stakes) and Lyle Taylor (former striker; focuses on the club’s handling and accountability). BBC Football Issues correspondent Dale Johnson explains the hearing: sanctions include four-point deductions for the league season (Oxford and Ipswich, with Ipswich being penultimate) plus separate playoff-period punishment akin to fielding an ineligible player.
Notable examples
Ipswich spying involved dressing a spy in an “Eastley” kit; reports say Southampton planned further spying on Middlesbrough; social media showed Taylor Harwood-Bellis celebrating “spy glasses.” Johnson says FA investigations may follow because individuals can’t be punished by the EFL alone. The hosts also discuss Hull’s preparation and the League One/Two finals preview.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOSouthampton's Disciplinary Shock
1:33 to 3:18
Discussion on Southampton's expulsion from the playoffs due to cheating.
“Hello everybody, welcome along to 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Live Sport.”
Integrity in Football Competitions
3:18 to 5:04
Debate on the importance of integrity in football and the implications of cheating.
“You know, really sad for Southampton fans and the majority of the players who are going to miss out.”
Details of Southampton's Misconduct
5:04 to 6:59
Dale Johnson breaks down the specifics of Southampton's spying allegations.
“That's as simple and as black and white as it is.”
Consequences and Legal Actions
6:59 to 8:34
Exploration of the potential legal ramifications for Southampton's actions.
“Every single minute of yesterday, today, you refresh social media, you look around on various news outlets, and it seems as though this story, there's just layers added to it.”
Southampton's Future and Reputation
8:34 to 10:12
Discussion on how Southampton can rebuild their reputation post-scandal.
“Because at the Olympics in 2024, there was a case of Canada spying on New Zealand using a drone.”
Impact on Coaching Staff and Future
10:12 to 14:01
Analysis of how the scandal affects the coaching staff and their careers.
“Obviously, we know there's an appeal happening right now.”
Southampton's Troubling Statistics
14:01 to 16:40
Discussion on Southampton's poor performance and managerial integrity issues.
“They dropped something like four points across 12, 13 games.”
EFL Punishment and Appeal Insights
16:41 to 19:00
Analysis of the EFL's decision and the implications for Southampton and other clubs.
“I mean, Erekson are saying today that they're considering their options in terms of the legal process and you've got to think there are going to be a lot of clubs that are going to feel quite hard done by this.”
Impact on Fans and Club Communication
19:01 to 24:00
Exploration of how the incident affects Southampton fans and club responsibilities.
“The second leg, did it go to extra time, Joby?”
Preparing for the Championship Playoff
24:01 to 28:00
Insights on Hull's adjustments and preparations amidst the evolving situation.
“I think for a lot of people who are dyed in the wool, you know, supporters of football clubs, their football clubs aren't.”
Show all 23 chapters
Preparing for Middlesbrough: Expectation vs Reality
28:00 to 28:34
Discussion on the transition from expecting Southampton to facing Middlesbrough.
“Of course it will be different in the sense of, I think their expectation, I think like a lot of us, was probably that it would be Southampton that they were going to be facing.”
Hull City's Experience and Game Strategy
28:35 to 29:58
Analyzing how Hull City's experienced players can influence their performance.
“Listen, they've played them in the season.”
Dean Holden's Championship Experience
29:59 to 31:07
Exploring Dean Holden's understanding of the championship and Hull's season turnaround.
“I think that is the most important thing.”
Hull's Unexpected Playoff Journey
31:08 to 31:52
Reflecting on Hull's surprising playoff qualification and the potential for promotion.
“And I think in these big games, as you've said, players that have been there, that have done it, won't be phased by this experience.”
Finals Predictions: Backline Strategies
31:53 to 33:10
Predictions on team formations and strategies for the upcoming finals.
“Hell yeah, these wins are piling up faster than my divorces.”
Lyle Taylor's FA Cup Experience
34:08 to 35:39
Lyle Taylor shares his memorable experience winning the FA Cup top scorer award.
“Before we talk about the League One and League Two finals, Has Lyle been to a different final at the weekend?”
Bolton's Tactical Evolution This Season
35:40 to 37:10
Examining Bolton's season and their adaptability in strategy and player roles.
“And they've all been stored in one cupboard so that when it comes time to put those up, they're all in one place and I know where they are.”
Stockport's Resilience and Smart Recruitment
37:11 to 38:14
Discussing Stockport's resilience and the impact of smart recruitment decisions.
“He deserves the time and the credit to do stuff.”
Bolton's Key Players and Challenges Ahead
38:15 to 41:39
Analyzing key players for Bolton and the challenges they face in the finals.
“You know, they've had to be a little bit cuter.”
Class of 92 and Their Current Struggles
41:40 to 42:00
Exploring the Class of 92's trajectory and their current challenges in League Two.
“there's no doubt in they are full of talent and if they can get the ball down and get it to those forward players, they're going to be a real tough team to stop on the day.”
Salford's Struggles and Playoff Ambitions
42:00 to 44:34
An analysis of Salford's performance and ambitions in the playoffs.
“That's on Bank Holiday Monday at 3 o 'clock.”
Notts County's Tactical Adjustments
44:34 to 46:28
Discussion on Notts County's changes and playoff strategies under new management.
“But Salford is, I suppose it's the romantic story from pre-Wrexham, the romantic story from yesteryear almost with the way the footballing world moves on so quickly.”
Wembley Excitement and Family Commitment
46:28 to 48:10
A light-hearted exchange about attending playoff games and family events.
“producing your very best on the biggest stage.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:2572 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McAnuff.
1:33Aaron Paul:Hello everybody, welcome along to 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Live Sport. At one of the most naturally dramatic times of the season, maybe this is the most dramatic time of any EFL season. Southampton have been kicked out of the playoffs after admitting they spied on three separate opponents this season. Middlesbrough have been reinstated, and as it stands, as we record on Wednesday lunchtime, it will be Middlesbrough who play Hull in Saturday's final. Southampton have appealed against the decision. That hearing is taking place today. In a moment, BBC Football Issues correspondent Dale Johnson will break it down for us.
2:12Aaron Paul:But first up, Joby McEnough and Lyle Taylor alongside me for this one. Joelle, I'll come straight to you. your thoughts on this entire sequel? Oh, I mean, first of all, when I heard the news at the same time everyone did sort of yesterday evening, it was total shock, I've got to be honest. Not because I don't think they deserve it, which we'll come on to, but I just didn't think that the disciplinary panel would get to that point. I think the thing clearly that tipped it over, that I've always felt, you know, this wasn't a one-off, you know, and it's been quite hard talking about it, Aaron, because it's a lot of, you know, if this happened and allegedly, you know, when I think deep down with some of the evidence that's come out, we all knew there was wrongdoing going on.
2:54And if it was one case, which I think still would have been enough to expel them, but now it's clearly multiple, they've admitted to multiple breaches and multiple clubs are involved, I genuinely feel there was no other action that could have been taken than to kick Southampton out. I think there's an integrity question about competitions, of course, about the playoffs. And ultimately, this had to happen. You know, really sad for Southampton fans and the majority of the players who are going to miss out. But ultimately, this is the correct decision and one that I don't feel the EFL or the panel had any other option to come to than this.
3:32I think it's the correct decision, but I think they could possibly have been a little bit harsher with the forward going part of the punishment. to admit to cheating in this way. It's a massive, massive thing. And I don't think there's any punishment that would be metered out that would be too harsh, if you ask me.
3:56Aaron Paul:The EFL had to set a precedent, didn't they, Joby? Because we've seen this before with Leeds United. They brought two new rules in to add a bit of steel to the rule book. And Southampton have broken these rules. And if you break the rules, you've got to be punished, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing, you know, again, something I've spoken about in this sort of period of time is, you know, one thing that we hold really dear in English football is the integrity, is fair competition. You know, whether it's in the Premier League, whether it's in the EFL in particular, there's an honesty about it.
4:29And again, for someone who's been involved in playoff defeats, semifinals and finals, you know, they are potentially life altering situations and matches. You know, if you're on the right side of them, you know, fantastic. When you're not, you know, they're really difficult situations to try and get over. And I just feel that in the cold light of day when you are waking up after a playoff defeat, it's tough. But what you can actually sort of use to try and get you through and motivate you is, listen, you've lost fair and square. This clearly hasn't been the case when we're talking about Southampton.
5:00There's been a real premeditated attempt to cheat. That's as simple and as black and white as it is. Again, like I said, even if it was one game, you know, it's a part of me that is really, there's anger, there's frustration, why they would think that they could get away with it and the scale that they have. And ultimately, they've let a lot of people down, you know, throughout English football, but particularly in their own fan base. And, you know, that group of players who, as I say, and I have to reiterate, I have got a huge amount of sympathy for.
5:30Aaron Paul:Let's bring in the BBC's Football Issues correspondent, Dale Johnson, is with us on 72+. us. Dale, great to have you with us. Just run us through it. What was the thought process and then the outcome from Tuesday's hearing? Yeah, well, obviously we'd had these rumours that there were more than one, there was more than one accusation from other clubs, but until the hearing result came out late on Tuesday evening, none of us knew who that would be or how many it was, and I think this was, while it was important, I don't think it was central to them being thrown out of the playoffs, and I think you break this down into into two separate parts of the sanction.
6:06You've got the league season defences, which were against Oxford and against Ipswich. And let's not forget, the Ipswich game was the penultimate game of the season when Southampton would still have a chance of finishing second. So you get the four points deducted for next season based on that. And then you get the playoffs period, which is a separate competition entirely. And I guess you think of that in terms of, say, a cup game when someone's fielded an ineligible player. When that happens, you lose the match and your opponent goes forward. And I think you've basically got two different sanctions there.
6:39And I think it's just an incredible situation. I think you've talked about it quite well just there. The fact that this has clearly been a systemic process of spying on opponents, I don't think there is any way that Southampton could have been allowed to take part in the playoff final and earn promotion to the Premier League based on what they have done over recent months.
7:02Aaron Paul:Every single minute of yesterday, today, you refresh social media, you look around on various news outlets, and it seems as though this story, there's just layers added to it. The Athletic have reported Southampton had initially planned for Salt, who's alleged to be the spy, to go back and spy on Middlesbrough for a second day. When Southampton spied on Ipswich, the operation involved dressing in an Eastley kit as disguise. Southampton's players have been left furious and are exploring legal auctions, including possible class action, if the verdict is upheld. But then there's pictures of Taylor Harwood-Bellis celebrating doing sort of spy glasses, if you like, as a celebration.
7:46Aaron Paul:This is wild, Dale. It is. And the question is, who knew what, who knew to what extent, and how far up the chain it goes. I mean, the next step, of course, is going to have to be, I think, some form of Football Association inquiry an investigation into it because while the EFL are able to take action against Southampton as a club, they can't take action against any individuals that were involved. So we will get the written reasons. The EFL say they want to get them out on Wednesday evening or Thursday morning at the latest and that's when we'll get the real meat, the real detail of exactly what the evidence was, what was presented, what everybody knew and I think once that has been delivered, the FA will then move on to charge the club and individuals based on the actions they've made.
8:34Because at the Olympics in 2024, there was a case of Canada spying on New Zealand using a drone. And this was against French law. So the French police followed this drone and they found a member of the Canadian coaching staff operating this drone. So they were docked six points and fined in the Olympic tournament. but the coach, Bev Priestman, and two members of the coaching staff were banned from all football globally for a year. And that tells you how serious this could be for Tondarekhar and whoever in the coaching staff has got a trail to being involved in this. My first thoughts and feelings are it's absolutely despicable.
9:16And I presume none of the players knew, but for players like Taylor Harwood-Bellis, who is captain of the football club, to be making light of it kind of tells you what football is as an industry. We are very much that way. But how deep should this be found to go will be dependent on the number of seconds. But we're talking manager, coaching staff, board members. How far up the tree will this roll? It's difficult to see how anybody who is culpable in this can stay at the club, just in terms of the fan perception. We've heard many Southampton fans over the last 24 hours speak of their disgust and how they feel that this is a stain on the club for years to come.
10:05So I just don't see how the fans can accept that anyone involved can have an association with the club.
10:11Aaron Paul:What happens next? Obviously, we know there's an appeal happening right now. Now, does Southampton have a leg to stand on, and what could the potential outcome be? Well, the arbitration panel will sit and they'll look at the judgment alone, because obviously there's no question of guilt, because it was admitted by Southampton. So it's a case of weighing up whether the punishment that's been handed down by the Independent Discipline Commission fits the crime, so to speak. So that will be the judgment that they will make. And once that process is over, that's the end of it. There is no appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.
10:45so we will get a hard end here now we should find this out on Wednesday later on Wednesday, potentially Thursday morning but this is Southampton's only chance and they will argue that they've been unfairly treated but I just don't see how you can win an argument that you've been unfairly treated when you have literally tried to gain a sporting advantage on your opponent in the playoffs by cheating. I just want to come off the back of that point Dale because you're absolutely right and i've got to say the whole way that this has been handled by certain sections of southampton has left a real sour taste in my mouth i think there's been no real contrition i think there's been strong allegations and obviously some evidence that they would have known about but you know and i know it's maybe difficult for tonda to have answered questions but just sometimes his mannerisms he's been really sort of um cold and dismissive of questioning which is obviously going to be very fair questioning given this the severity of those allegations and i think this is another example of that i think this is an opportunity for southampton now i don't think they should appeal it listen like lyle said i think whatever they got they should just take it on the chin get on with it show some accountability so show some culpability and try and when i say try and this is the real sad thing about this that football club's name has been dragged through the mud now and there's some really good people there you know people i know that are still at that football club that have had no inkling, no knowledge of this, but they're being tarnished.
12:16So for me, the best course of action for Southampton to take is to hold your hands up. We have cheated. We've been caught out. Now, how do we rebuild our name? How do we show that this wasn't a whole club-wide movement or that more people were involved? Get to the bottom of it. Bring those who were responsible and let them take their punishment and try and rebuild what is an absolute shattered reputation for you as a football club. I just feel by dragging it on and appealing, it just extends that sort of thought of maybe, you know, we've been harshly treated here somehow, when they haven't. You know, they are the ones that are in the wrong.
12:55They have committed the spying. So therefore, take the punishment and try and move on now. It's just a really, really horrible situation. And let's factor in one thing here. We're now, what, 12, 13, 14 hours after the decision, as we speak right now. Southampton have still not acknowledged anywhere across their official website, socials, anything, that this has even happened. It's as though the game on Saturday is going ahead as planned, and there's been no scandal that is happening in the background or not at the background anymore. so I just think that failure to even engage the only reason we know they've appealed is because the hierarchy of brief journalists they're not even saying that this has happened and I think that's just incredible Jobes, we've been waxing lyrical about Tonda Rekker and the way he has turned that football club's fortunes around in the last, what, maybe six months obviously being brought in from inside the academy set up and taking that team on the run that they went on.
14:00What was the stats on it, Aaron? They dropped something like four points across 12, 13 games.
14:06Aaron Paul:36, four impossible, 36 or something. Ridiculous. Unbelievable. His reputation is now absolutely in the mud. Yeah, and it should be. We're talking about a man whose star was rising and rising fast, by the way. What he'd done was incredible. to then find out that he did it nefariously. What does that do for him? I think he, in my opinion, I think they'll have to sack him. And in my opinion, I don't see anybody touching him with a barge pole for the foreseeable future because you don't want that associated with your football club. No, and listen, again, we have to get to a point where that is proven that he was involved.
14:49I think for all of us that have been involved in the game, there's very little doubt in my mind. I know how analysts work. I've been in changing rooms. I've been in, you know, coaching sessions where you're planning pre-match prep and you're looking at your training session. Everything now, I mean, and the level of detail that goes into putting a game plan together now is through the roof. So there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that, of course, the manager would have an input into that. And that's why this information is being fed back. Of course, again, we spoke about it. I think it was the first leg of the semis that I was covering.
15:23and it puts a question, this was beforehand, under everything that he's done. Of course it does. When you listen to some of the players, Flynn Downs has come out speaking about the level of detail tactically, going out onto a football pitch and almost understanding what the game was going to look like. Now, of course, that's going to come down to whether you've got a real good idea of what that team's going to do to set up that you're playing against and almost being that one step ahead. So, of course, he's done major damage. I mean, who touches him now? I don't know. That element of, you know, we talk about integrity, trust.
15:58He has none, you know, and I just feel it's, again, another sad chapter in what's been a really distasteful episode.
16:05Aaron Paul:Dale, there are so many more questions. Obviously, look, the appeal's going to go ahead today. Just in regards to the appeal, what are Southampton appealing against? Is it severity punishment? Is Tonda Eka pleading ignorance? and I mean they've sort of admitted to three games here. What are the chances that the EFL reopen this box next season and say well we want to investigate further or we want to look further into it? The only thing that Southampton can appeal against is the fact that the punishment is too harsh. I think in terms of what happens next I spoke to the EFL earlier and I asked about that's very question about what happens if further clubs are suddenly trawling through their training ground CCTV TV and looking for a man in an Eastie track suit or whatever he might be wearing or inside their cafe and they wouldn't really be drawn on it to be honest but I think it's fair enough to say that other clubs are going to be looking at this.
17:03I mean, Erekson are saying today that they're considering their options in terms of the legal process and you've got to think there are going to be a lot of clubs that are going to feel quite hard done by this. I mean, Oxford and Ipswich, even though Oxford won the game and Ipswich drew the game and ultimately it didn't actually have an impact on their season, they're going to feel sort of damaged themselves, the fact that their preparation has been affected. So I don't think this story is going to be over. I think the football generally is really quite disgusted by the behaviour so it would not be a surprise if over the next couple of months there were suddenly extra charges.
17:42Aaron Paul:What about the Southampton players? Do they have a legal claim, a financial claim against potential lost earnings? I think it's difficult because obviously that's a prediction that you're going to beat holding the final. So while you're not going to have that playoff final, you're not saying there's guaranteed wage increases, guaranteed bonuses that aren't going to be paid. So I think it's, I mean, you can never rule these things out, can you? But I think at this stage, I would be surprised if there's going to be legal actions from within the club. Really appreciate your time, Dale. Thank you very much.
18:16Aaron Paul:That's the BBC's Football Issues correspondent, Dale Johnson, with us on 72 +, the home of the EFL from Five Life Sport. There's more across the BBC Sport website and at the moment it lands, that's where you'll find all the information. Middlesbrough, by the way, have said they welcome the outcome of the hearing. Boris say we believe this sends out a clear message to the future of our game regarding sporting integrity and conduct. As a club, we're now focused on our game against Hull City at Wembley on Saturday. Ticket information for our supporters will be available shortly. It's one thing punishing Southampton.
18:50Aaron Paul:Should Middlesbrough be rewarded, they've effectively been given a bye into the final. I know they've played 210 minutes of football, wasn't it? Was it 210 minutes of football? The second leg, did it go to extra time, Joby? Yes, it did. It did, there you go. So 210 minutes of football. Do they deserve to go straight into the final? Yes, in a word. I think this is where, you know, if you start trying to be too clever with, you know, what the potential fallout is going to be, who should be there, who shouldn't be. It's pretty simple, in my opinion. Yes, I know that they have admitted to these breaches against other clubs in the regular season.
19:28But, you know, for a playoff game, you finished where you did in the table, you play against Southampton in the semifinals and ultimately you haven't gone through. So it's a difficult position for the EFL. And I just want to say, you know, I commend them and I commend the panel. We're on here a lot talking about at times, maybe are they strong enough? Do they dish out the type of punishment that should be when it comes to and all the governing bodies, actually. And I think on this occasion, they've been as strong as they probably can be. So I just wanted to, you know, make sure that, you know, they get their little bit of a well done because they could have maybe taken another option.
20:07and maybe done a heavy fine, maybe done a bigger points deduction, would they go as far as expelling them? Given the proximity to the game, and that's the other thing we have to talk about, you know, in terms of how quickly they've had to deal with this. I mean, the first incident happened two days where it was reported before the first playoff game. Then you get the quick turnaround. You can't have done it any sooner. So, listen, I think they've come to a conclusion that we would all agree is the right one in terms of getting Southampton out. The next natural step is to reinstate Middlesbrough.
20:36I think it's as simple as that. Are there going to be other clubs maybe aggrieved at all? You know, we finished here and, you know, Southampton hadn't done this. We could have, of course there is. It's a can of worms. I just think this is the next best situation in, you know, a development that there is no easy answers. I think you're right, Jobs. I think there's only so far you can go back because otherwise we'll go back and replay the whole season and get a computer to simulate it for us because it would be the only way of doing that. But I don't think, unfortunately, a Millwall or a Wrexham or anybody who finished just outside the playoffs has a leg to stand on with this.
21:17And they're saying they're going to assess their options and things like that. I think this is the easiest and cleanest way of saying, you did this, you're out. This team are back in because they were in anyway.
21:30Aaron Paul:Of course, the problem is, Joby, that as usual, it's the supporters who are struggling here. Money's tight right now. Things are very expensive. Travel, hotels, obviously you have businesses inflating prices and naturally they're going to do so because they're in close proximity to Wembley Stadium and there's, what, 90 ,000 football fans descending upon the capital. But there are fans out there that are going to book things and who will receive a refund for their tickets, but won't receive a refund for any travel, any flights people have flown from abroad. It is always the fans who end up suffering.
22:11Aaron Paul:And I wonder what Southampton do. I don't think they're going to be the top of the priority list in terms of what goes on going forward. But I wonder what Southampton do to try and support their fans through this because they don't deserve this. The fans haven't had any impact on Southampton spying. The right thing to do, if we look at this, would be the football club help those fans and reimburse those fans for lost money because the football club has to take ownership of this. Yeah. Does this not come back to, I think, the way the club has handled this whole episode or not handled it, I would say.
22:42You know, I just think not reading the room and understanding the severity of the situation and actually the impact it's had on the wider game, not just, you know, Middlesbrough Football Club, not about the whole city. You know, they're trying to prepare. Are they playing the game? Are they not? Who are they playing against? Going back to Southampton fans, could there not have been a bit more communication to say, listen, hold fire, you know? Yes, we're in the final at the moment, but we can't confirm. But they would probably see that as an admittance. That's an admittance of guilt. Some wrongdoing, I know.
Read the full transcript
23:13So again, it's just so messy, but I just feel their communications. But then they admitted anyway. Now they have. Yeah. This is how long three, well, a week after the last playoff game. I just feel there's been a long period of this sort of limbo time that they've almost let the fans just get on with it, assuming they will get to the final and play it. And I just feel that's where Southampton fans, of course, have got an absolute, you know, right to be angry. And I've seen a lot of that. And it's, you know, only right that they are feeling that, you know, there's disgust towards their own football club.
23:47I've seen people cutting up shirts. I've seen people saying they're not going to go and support their team again. And that is the sad thing because they are the most important people. And it's a fantastic football club. Great history, great tradition. And it's been dragged through the mud by the actions of a few people. And we hope it's only a few.
24:05Aaron Paul:I think for a lot of people who are dyed in the wool, you know, supporters of football clubs, their football clubs aren't. I mean, they represent a level of integrity that you carry yourself with as well. And if a football club can go against your principles, your morals, your standards and your values, then fans will feel disenfranchised from it. And I think there's a lot of supporters out there. I spoke to one yesterday who's a high profile Southampton supporter. I feel so let down by my football club. And you wonder where fans begin with regards to their healing process with the football club.
24:43Aaron Paul:If they jack it in completely, if they go and follow someone else. Who knows? who knows the EFL have said Saturday's playoff final between Hull and Middlesbrough will kick off at 3.30 should the outcome of the ongoing appeal process result in the final being contested by Hull and Southampton the kickoff time will be 4.30 let us know what you think send us a WhatsApp 08000 289 369 08000 289 369 some neat little bits of reaction on social media BBC tees have said I spy with my little I something beginning with W and through a magnifying glass here's a picture of Wembley Stadium Portsmouth have well come back and quote tweeted a post from September the South Coast are becoming soon and just put soon and an arrow once again social media is awash with comment on this let's look ahead to the actual football though.
25:46Aaron Paul:Hull versus Middlesbrough on Saturday. Kick-off time, well, we think it's going to be half past three. Let's hear from the Hull assistant manager, Dean Holden, who was on the Monday nightclub before Southampton were expelled. You can sometimes get a little bit too clever and people saying you're preparing for two games and two teams. I think the key thing for us as a staff, when we deliver to the players this week, we've got to make sure it's as concise as can be. There's obviously going to be a lot of emotion, a lot of nervous energy going to such a big occasion. And for us, it's making sure that the players go out there and they're not overthinking in terms of the messages they've had throughout the week.
26:22So for us, we're preparing fully on Southampton. I think I read one quote yesterday as well, which is, if it was to change, then you would be used to that anyhow, given how quickly games come in the championship. You know, if you're playing Saturday and then moving on to a Tuesday game, you don't have long for those opponents, do you really? so it's something that you would if anything was to change you would take in your stride? Yeah, listen, I think what we have done well this season is we've adapted we've adapted to teams that we're playing against we've adapted to having suffering a lot of injuries unfortunately and we've found ways to win throughout the season and you're right, normally in the Championship the reason it's so unique is that you get so many Saturday, Tuesday quick turnarounds so for us, if it comes to that we will deal with it we're not going to be there'll be people inside the club who will be speaking with the EFL of course at a much higher level than me who'll be trying to find quick answers.
27:15But for us as a staff and the players, I just repeat what I've just said there, we can't afford to take our eyes off it and start trying to overcomplicate this situation. There's so many elements to it. If we're asking our analyst team, which is really small, I have to say, to start preparing for two teams, it's going to cause a few problems.
27:33Aaron Paul:Dean Holden, the whole city assistant boss on the Monday nightclub on Five Live Sport. You can hear the full interview back on BBC Sounds. Joby, he speaks about preparing to be adaptable. Hull have done four training sessions preparing for Southampton and now they've got to change and prepare for Middlesbrough. I mean, a lot of people will sit and go, well, you know, you do it sort of Saturday, Tuesday in the regular season. But will this be any different? Of course it will be different in the sense of, I think their expectation, I think like a lot of us, was probably that it would be Southampton that they were going to be facing.
28:09I'm assuming the bulk of the work would have been geared towards that. But like you say, you have to just, and Dean summed it up brilliantly well there, you have to adapt, you have to get on with what is, now they've got a bit more clarity, we hope. I don't know how confidently I say that, I've got to be honest. It didn't sound very confident coming out of my mouth. But they now know, for all intents and purposes, it's going to be Middlesbrough. Listen, they've played them in the season. And I think they have quite a clear and defined way of playing Middlesbrough under Kim Helberg. So in terms of Dean's work and the coaches and the analysts, I think that'd be a pretty quick switch to be able to get that information over to the players and come up with a game plan to try and beat them.
28:51Aaron Paul:Just on Hull City, I mean, full of praise for Sergei Okerovich and the nature in which he gets this side playing. They've gone for a different approach this season and they've gone for experience. and those experience heads, John Egan, Paddy McNair, John Lundstrom, Oli McBurney, they've all been involved in the Premier League before. How would they utilise them and sort of, you know, blend them together with the other players, the likes of the Ballumis, the Carl Josephs, who haven't done it before, and get them over the line? Well, those boys are the most important ones. They are the glue for the group.
29:29And we've seen in the semi-final second leg how, I suppose, adaptable Jekirovic is, especially with his team selection and his setup. So I don't think this goings on will impact Hull in that big a way. Now, those senior players are, they're going to be the key, the key to winning, the key to getting ahead, the key to holding on to a lead if that is what happens. And I don't think there is a substitute for experience. I think that is the most important thing. So their job now is to get around that dressing room. Right, boys, this is what's going to happen. This is what's going on. And be those generals in the dressing room.
30:15And they're going to have to drag that team over the line.
30:17Aaron Paul:If you're Oli McBurney, you are desperate to win promotion, Joby, because otherwise it's going to be a stinker for someone. He's missed out on the Scotland squad for the World Cup. Yeah, listen, you find those different ways to motivate you. And listen, this will be a huge disappointment. Of course, it will not to be named in that World Cup squad. But this could be a hell of a sort of cushion to maybe soften that blow, playing a big part, as he has done. He's been magnificent. And just going back to that experience. And we have to remember, you know, Hull's situation going into this season in terms of restrictions around what types of transfers are to be frees and loans couldn't spend any money.
30:54So I think that's where that experience really came in. Dean Holden, again, someone who understands the championship, knows what it's like to be around it for a manager who had no prior experience and a team that stayed up on goal difference last year. So it's been an incredible turnaround. And I think in these big games, as you've said, players that have been there, that have done it, won't be phased by this experience. I think particularly to start the game, when you look through that team, bags of experience and know-how and then those options to potentially come off the bench when you need those game changers, like we saw in the second leg against Millwall.
31:29So, listen, they're not going to be going there with any fear whatsoever. It's been a fantastic season for them and an opportunity to do something really special and something that I don't think many outside of Hull and maybe some inside Hull would have thought would have been on the cards at the start of this season.
31:44Aaron Paul:Yeah, they gatecrashed the playoffs on the final day. They were excellent against Millwall and now they're 90 minutes away from the Premier League. oh by the way anyone anyone going to bet back five or back four for your Kirovic in the final I think he'd probably similar I mean they were so good against Millwall weren't they and I think that Ajayi Egan Hughes with the wing backs Ryan Giles another player who's such a good player at this level sort of lost his way a little bit but he's been fantastic this season that natural width that he gives them so yeah I'll be surprised if he changed that but who knows the only way to the only way to potentially find out is send someone from Southampton up there to have a look too soon mate too soon
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34:0772 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul and Joby McAnuff.
34:13Aaron Paul:Before we talk about the League One and League Two finals, Has Lyle been to a different final at the weekend? Tell us all about the FA Cup final. Yes, I had a long day at Wembley on Saturday, which was really good. There was a lot of press and a lot of things to do. You love it. It was all for you, mate. Yeah, you do love it. I walked away from the famous arch with a giant golden ball, and it was a really special day. It was something that I never have thought about before. I didn't bring it in today because I didn't fancy walking through the streets of London with a 24-carat gold ball, which is what it is.
34:55Have you put it up on your socials yet, though? I've not seen it. I haven't put it up yet, no, because I got the pictures late yesterday. It was about 8 or 9 o 'clock. It's not like you to be shy. I got the pictures from the FA. Shy and Lyle Taylor is two words that you'd never see in the same sentence, but there we go. I don't understand why I'm getting the hate and the abuse. You're not getting any hate.
35:16Aaron Paul:We love you. We're proud of you. No, it was, it was, do you know what? It was a great day. And to win something like that is, is so special. To win anything is special in football, but, but to be presented with that is, is amazing. And it's not up on the mantelpiece because there isn't a mantelpiece to put it on. But I have dug up a lot of awards and manner of matches from the EFL games. and I think playoff games that I've had. And they've all been stored in one cupboard so that when it comes time to put those up, they're all in one place and I know where they are. Do you know what? I would, I mean, with the price of gold right now, have you thought taking it somewhere, getting it valued and maybe melting it down?
35:57There was a conversation I had with a good friend of mine, Graham, about melting it down and what we could possibly make out of it. But no, it won't be going anywhere. I sent you a picture of it. It's amazing. The detail on the ball is incredible. And what we were told on Saturday is that every year the ball will be different because there are elements of the football that is used in the year's competition and the year's final that are put into the trophy. So every single one, obviously there's two of ours because we shared the award and it's the first time that's happened. But every single year the golden ball will be different.
36:33Aaron Paul:Just to confirm, this is for being top scorer in the FA Cup, How many goals? Eight? Eight goals, yeah. Fantastic. Great achievement. In League One, Bolton take on Stockport. One o 'clock on Sunday. Bolton having beaten Bradford 1-0 and 1-0. Stockport beating Stevenage 1-0 and 2-0. Stockport haven't been in the second tier in 24 years. I know we always go on about Dave Challenger's records. 16 seasons, seven promotions. Joby, when you look at their achievements this season, people look at sort of the back end of the season with the fact that they were playing a centre forward at centre half. They had no defenders.
37:11Aaron Paul:He's recruited smartly. There's been, I mean, I'd love to sort of have done a fly on the wall of this season because a lot of fans were frustrated with Dave Challenger at parts of this season, were frustrated with the style of football and maybe thought of a change. But they've stuck with him. They've stuck by him. Why wouldn't you stick by him? He deserves the time and the credit to do stuff. And they've got their just rewards. They are in the player final. They're one game away from the championship. Yeah, and it's really interesting hearing about that sort of, I wouldn't say the grumbles, but style.
37:45And, you know, I think when you've got a Carl Watten up top, it's very easy to say, we'll look at him first. We'll go a little bit longer, which again has been a real successful part of what they've done over the last few years. You know, getting the ball into wide areas, delivering into the box when you've got such a target and a threat. The fact that he's actually had to go and play at the back because of those defensive issues, which again makes towards the end of the season even more impressive for Stockport having to deal without, you know, key, key players in that defensive line and having a centre forward plug in the gap.
38:16You know, they've had to be a little bit cuter. I think Louis Barry, what an interesting sign in that was at the time, knowing he wasn't going to be fit. But actually he's come up trumps in these games. We talk about the big players, his relationship with the football club. You know, I'm sure he's going to have a huge role to play. Osborne as well. And again, when you've got Ollie Norwood, pulling the strings. Of course, they're also a good, good football team. I think that is one thing that's really impressed me with Stockport is they've got different ways to win games. It isn't just a one style, one approach.
38:45And I think that's what's made them so dangerous and why they've done so well this season.
38:49Aaron Paul:Lyle, I think with Bolton being a side that likes to attack, a die in goal for Stockport is going to be key. He's been brilliant for them. I think that is one of those win it or lose it kind of clashes the whole of the Bolton team against him and his two centre-halves. But no, he's been brilliant and has, I suppose, done, let's say, the improbable at times. So it's going to be a great final. They normally are. They're normally edge of the seat, nail-biting. I don't expect to see an absolute goal fest, but I think you're going to see two teams, four teams, six teams across the three finals that are going to go hammer and tongs.
39:31and it's the most special of days should you win it.
39:36Aaron Paul:Stephen Schumacher's come in. They've got an embarrassment of riches going forward, though, haven't they, Bolton? I really like him. I think he's a fun manager to be around and he's proven himself as not just being a number one, sorry, a number two, but he can be a number one as well. There's some players in that squad who I think have had big seasons. Sam Dalby, Josh Shinn, who again has had really bad injury problems and is just for me is a real fabulous midfield player. Everyone's looking at Mason Burstow though and everyone's looking at Amario Kozier-Drewbry. What a baller. Yeah, he's been fantastic hasn't he?
40:16I mean what the season might have looked like if he hadn't suffered the injury that he did. He was out for a period of time but he's come back and that goal he scored in the first leg for anyone who hasn't seen him a lovely snapshot just playing on the right-hand side left footed just comes in i actually saw him a few years ago at arsenal playing in the fa youth cup and he was called sort of all the kids were calling him mini saka mini saka same sort of stature you know quick cuts in um and he's been a revelation for them this season on the other side sissoko again you know tricky will get the ball will run at people i think the pitch will suit those if they can get the ball to them um and again a team that has had issues in forward areas of late obviously Kenny being injured he was fantastic on a really good goal run so they've had to try and find different ways Sam Dorby has been coming back probably expect him to start over best though that'll be an interesting decision for for Steve Schumacher to make but again someone I know well is an ex-roomie of mine during our time at Stevenage and you know I know he's really disappointed with how things ended at Stoke and I think he felt it was a bit premature the decision they took he's had to you know go away and rebuild a team that was a real distinct style under Ian Evert you know players that were used to playing for a manager and he's you know had to just go about there's a few left over but build a new squad and that's taken a little bit of time I think we've seen a little bit of inconsistency for that reason but on their day there's no doubt in they are full of talent and if they can get the ball down and get it to those forward players, they're going to be a real tough team to stop on the day.
41:51Aaron Paul:I predict goals for that final. Goals, goals and more goals. He's done it. Why would you do that? The League 2 final is Notts County versus Salford. That's on Bank Holiday Monday at 3 o 'clock. Notts County having edged past Chesterfield. That one finished 1-0-0-0. Salford beating Grimsby 4-3 over two legs. Now, Joby, we look at the rise of football documentaries and the The class of 92 on Sky was one of the first out of the Football League. Some would say that it's maybe fallen a bit. The story isn't as loved as maybe the Wrexham story. Because they've stalled somewhat on the pitch, haven't they?
42:32Aaron Paul:The class of 92 took over in 2014. Four promotions in five seasons. Promoted to the EFL in 2019. And they've been in League Two ever since. Yeah, this seems to be the real big hurdle. They hurtled their way through, as you say. I came up against them in the National League and in League Two. And you did feel that that momentum and everything around the football club would drive them on. And they would potentially do a rec. So I'm not saying necessarily get up to the championship, but certainly be able to get out of League Two. And it's been a real struggle for them for various reasons. And it's interesting because they're a club that obviously has spent an awful lot in terms of recruiting players.
43:11I still think there's a big job to do there from an infrastructure perspective, whether it's training facilities, the ground. Carl Robertson has spoken about having to adapt the way that he plays or wants to play at times to sort of temper the issues with the quality of the pitch there. So this is a huge opportunity for them. We all know the ambition of that football club. A few hairy moments, certainly towards the end in the last round against Grimsby, but managed to get themselves over the line and a big, big chance to finally make that step that we've all thought probably would have happened before now.
43:44Aaron Paul:Salford assistant boss Alex Bruce was on Five Lives Monday night club a couple of weeks back, spoke about changing the mindset of the players and moving focus away from the blur of missing out on automatic promotion. Notts County this season had to focus on the fact that they were knocked out in the semis last year over two legs and they've had to recover and get themselves back up. Obviously, Martin Patterson has gone in there. Both of these clubs have such a point to prove and are desperate to get out of that division. They are desperate to get out of that division because they know what comes if you do.
44:16And Wrexham have shown that. Stockport are showing that. So the opportunity of success, longevity of success beyond League Two is there and the blueprint is there. I think Notts County as a football club with the fan base they have are probably better equipped to do well in League One and to drive forward from there. But Salford is, I suppose it's the romantic story from pre-Wrexham, the romantic story from yesteryear almost with the way the footballing world moves on so quickly. So let's see what happens. I mean, it's going to be a good game. It's a contrast of styles. So let's see what happens.
45:06And I'll be in America, so I'll be watching from afar, but I'll be listening to Joby and yourself under the arch.
45:15Aaron Paul:Do you think Notts County have learned from last season, Joby? I mean, they can be resolute, they can be tough. That semi-final, the two legs of the semi-final weren't entertaining, but it's about getting the job done. yeah absolutely and I think you know two clean sheets in those games tells you all you need to know about that um approach again we're talking about getting through semi-finals and listen you have to be solid you have to be hard to beat and I think they have as the season has gone you know and since uh Martin Patterson's come in they have tweaked things they're not probably taking as many risks with the ball than certainly did previously that sort of caught up with them a little bit and And, you know, I've got to say in a couple of the young lads, Iopenda and Luka, two big, big talents who I've really enjoyed watching.
46:04You know, Iopenda over those two games, just athleticism, his energy, you know, his drive to make those runs into the final third and be creative. He's been fantastic. And, you know, there's a lot to like about Notts County. But again, with all playoff finals, it's going to be about who turns up on the day. You know, for me, everything's out the window. form where you finished in the league, although there's nothing between them. It's just about producing your very best on the biggest stage.
46:32Aaron Paul:I'm going 2-1, 2-1, 1-0. I'm not saying who to. Well, then that must be edited out. Because that's just a nonsense. I did predict I did say last year that Wimbledon would do it for 1-0. Three months ago you plotted Wimbledon's ascent to the playoffs, Aaron. So I mean... That's undone. all of your good work from the final last year. There's a time to know when you're winning. So that's Lyle Taylor's last episode on 72 months. We'll be hearing from him again. Joby, three day Wembley weekend for you. Got the old camp bed out? Yeah, just actually trying to sort it all out now. I've actually got my boy's birthday on the 24th.
47:14So poor him, he normally gets... No, I'm only joking. He loves it. So yeah, nothing better than being around Wembley on those days. They're absolutely magnificent. you know all the games across you know all of the leagues they're genuinely you know a pleasure and a privilege to be a part of um so much emotion and excitement and hope and the other side of it which again i've been a party to the despair of losing so um you just can't beat it mate i cannot
47:39Aaron Paul:wait cannot wait just just to confirm are you are you going to be attending on your boy's birthday you choosing the playoffs over your son's birthday um it's a joint family thing you know so what you Are you taking your son to the playoffs? Yes. I'll be working. I'm doing the Bolton-Stockport game and he will be going and he will be in the crowd. Fair play. Fair play. That's commitment right there. Dad has to keep that. Then wheels turning. So happy birthday. That's no presence otherwise, buddy. You know what I mean? Happy birthday, McEnough Jr. That is it for this episode of the Football Daily.
48:12Aaron Paul:Thank you, Lyle. Thank you, Joby. Remember, you can listen to the latest news and views from every single EFL club on the BBC Sounds app. Just search your club's name and make sure to hit subscribe so you get notified whenever something new drops. As for us here on 72 Plus, the home of the EFL from Firefly Sports, our next episode will be the Championship Playoff Final Review. Can't wait. Catch you then. Five Live Sports. BBC Women's Football Weekly. The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Dame Serena Vigman. Welcome to the club. Are we including Dame You know how much an honour that is.
48:49And this remarkable team! And this remarkable women! We want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup. It's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app.
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From the publisher
Aaron Paul, Jobi McAnuff & FA Cup top scorer Lyle Taylor chat Spygate. BBC football issues correspondent Dale Johnson drops in to break down what it means for Southampton, Middlesbrough and Hull City. Hear from Hull assistant Dean Holden in their disrupted week of preparation. Lyle reflects on picking up the FA Cup Golden Ball Award. And the guys look ahead to the play-off finals for League One and League Two. Messages and voicenotes always welcome on WhatsApp to 08000 289 369.
00:20 Southampton kicked out of the play-offs, 04:10 Dale Johnson joins the pod, 08:45 What happens next? 12:15 What could this mean for Eckert? 17:20 Should Middlesbrough be rewarded? 24:20 How do Hull City prepare? 31:40 Lyle scoops up the FA Cup Golden Ball Award, 34:10 Bolton take on Stockport, 39:30 Notts County face Salford.
5 Live / BBC Sounds commentaries: Wed 2000 Freiburg v Aston Villa in UEFA Europa League Final.
