72+ EFL Pod: West Brom woes & managerless Leicester

0:0072 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul. Welcome along, everybody, to CM2 Plus, the home of the EFL from Five Live Sport. With us to two through all of the latest developments, West Bromwich Albion winger Jed Wallace. Evening, Jed. Evening, guys. Great to have you with us. A former championship now Chelmsford striker Lyle Taylor alongside us as well. Good evening. And two-time League Two promotion winner with Bristol Rovers and Port Vale. Daryl Clark, how are you, Daryl? Good evening, gents. Yeah, I'm all good. Thanks, Aaron. Great to see you back out and about with us, Daryl. How have things been since leaving Bristol Rovers?

0:37I've only come out of retirement for you, Aaron. You know that. Yeah, it's been challenging. I think when you lose your job as a manager, you need your time to process. You know, I had a disappointing six, seven weeks at the club where we had an awful run in 10 games. But listen, that won't define me. Managed nearly 700 games now. I'll bounce back. just took a little bit of time to get my head around it and reset and then go again, mate. Lyle Taylor also alongside of, in the midst of a mad schedule. Tell us all about it. Yes, so our home games are played on Monday nights. So we have just played Saturday, Monday this week and next week we play Saturday, Monday again, then Saturday, Tuesday, then Saturday, Monday and then Saturday, Monday again.

1:25So it's a bit of a time at the moment and the legs are going to take an absolute battering over the next four weeks. Well, I didn't play Saturday. We played away at Horsham and it was on an AstroTurf pitch. So I was given a watching brief for 60 minutes before the game turned into silly hour and ended up 3-2. So that was OK. But yesterday it was heavy on the legs. Jed, great to see you back out and about, mate. really really good after a while out with injury how good is it to be back on the pitch I mean affecting games as well yeah it's been great um I think Lyle will tell you the hardest thing in football is injuries and mentally it's been challenging for me certainly when you're the captain of the team you feel that you want to help the lads as much as you can that's very difficult when you're in the physio room so for me to get back um and play my role off the bench the last three or four games has been something that I've really missed and enjoyed being back to be honest.

2:22Got to touch on it, Jed. Really turbulent times at the Albion at the moment. Obviously, the manager losing his job, Eric Ramsey, coming in as head coach. And firstly, just on Ryan Mason. I know that he had a real good rapport with everyone in the dressing room, didn't he? Yeah, yeah, he's very popular amongst the players, amongst the staff. And I think Albion fans have watched every game the same way that I have this season. Unfortunately, with the injury, I've watched games. And to be honest, how we've lost some of the games we've lost have been ridiculous, really. I think we've made the most individual errors in the league.

2:53We were so close in so many games, it felt like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. We'd miss an open goal, they'd go down the other end, pit one in the top corner from 30 yards. But late individual errors have cost us points, thinking of both Leicester games, the Charlton games. It's been a really difficult season for us, there's no hiding away from that, especially after a really good start that we had. Our away form has been really, really disappointing, so that was important for us to log that off on Friday night against Derby and build slowly to really improve in our away form because our away support has been fantastic and our performances have been really disappointing to be honest.

3:28Jed, what is it from the more senior players in your group, obviously yourself, the likes of Carlin, what is it that you guys who have been there for a longer period of time are trying to do to kind of drag the team back to where this team should be? Yeah, I think the easy thing to do when it isn't going well is to be really negative. For me, obviously, I've not felt that mental strain as much as everyone else because of the injury. You know how it is when you're playing week in, week out, you feel that mental strain. When you're injured, you're just mostly focused on getting back fit as quick as you can to help the side.

4:02So for me, it's been trying to be a positive influence. You know the turmoil mentally that footballers go through up and down, even in a week, to be honest. And I think that Norwich at home game was a real turning point for me where it was time to sort of wake people up. We did a meeting the day after the game and it was as bad a night as I've ever had in football, to be honest. I've played, I think, over 500 games and that's as bad a night as I've had. And that was one where it was time for everyone to snap out of it and wake up in a way and realise the situation that we are in. And being brave enough to accept we are in a relegation battle and we have to stand up to that.

4:37because West Brom Football Club should not be where they are in the championship at the moment. Myself and the rest of the players are very aware that we're the main reason behind that. We can't hide behind managers. We need to improve. I believe we have some of the best players in the league, but for whatever reason, as individuals and as a collective, we haven't shown that. Football's football. We need to keep clean sheets. We need to stop making individual errors and build confidence from that. And I think you saw that against Derby. it was a spirited performance in terms of the basics of football, Lyle, that we all know in first contact and second contact, as boring as it is, this is the championship.

5:13I think I've not seen, in the most respectful way possible, I've not seen loads of good teams in the championship this year. But I have seen teams that are very, very good at the basics. And you can see that in the playoff picture, certainly with the likes of Millwall and Hull, when we played against those sort of teams. They're fantastic at the basics. And that's why they are where they are in the division. So that's something we need to massively improve on. Darrell, I've got to ask you, how difficult is it when you are in a rut, and I say it again with respect, Jed, West Bromajabi feel like they are very much in a rut, how difficult is it to arrest that and change that, especially in the Football League, when, I know it's cliche, the games come thick and fast, it's a proper marathon.

5:53Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, managing those situations, it's trying to keep as positive as you possibly can. you know you tried everything you're trying everything arms around it man-to-man managing speaking to players you go you go through an old seminar of different things that you want to go through and and get your head around it and and to be fair you know most of the pros they struggle at times just because it's continuous and the pressure of the shirt weighs heavy on them and you know what I find nowadays is is that when you're going into a group that is lacking that confidence and not getting that much uh them results it just drains the lads so you can't beat them with a stick you really can't because it doesn't work the old-fashioned way you know you've got to you've got to find different ways to get the group galvanized and sometimes it can be a result that goes really well you know you get a deflection that goes in you win a scruffy game one nil and it changes the momentum and it changes the confidence in the changing rooms Jed how has Eric Ramsey come in and approach things because obviously this is a big big gig coming in from America, from the MLS.

7:01It's a completely different kettle of fish. And again, the championship is a division where it doesn't care who you are. It will chew you up and spit you out. That's the EFL on the whole. No, it's been tough for him, mainly because of the scheduling. I think he came in and we probably had two available training sessions and then we're into a free game week. And I mean, Lyle saying they just played Saturday, Monday, I can only imagine the sports scientists and the iPads would be in overdrive at championship level. secondary recovery and all of that. For us, it's like a challenge for the manager to get us on the grass.

7:33This is a free week for us now. So I think you'll see hopefully a big improvement in us in a huge game for us at Fratton Park on the weekend. Obviously, look, we've changed formation, so that takes time. Fortunately, we can use that time in the meeting room. It doesn't always have to be on the grass. Obviously, we've had a couple of big injuries as well in the last week. So it's managing the squad. It's not the biggest squad that I've played in. So it's been a challenge for the manager in terms of pushing us, but also keeping everyone fit and available. and making the most of the time on the training pitch.

8:00Max O 'Leary was brought in from Bristol City. He started and there was a mistake on his debut. You are a camp full of experienced heads. There's plenty of football league experience in there. There's Premier League experience in there. How do you crowd around him and protect him after that mistake? Because he's been brought in to try and shore up a difficult position. And he makes a mistake in his first game. And again, when you're raining, it pours. when it rains, sorry, it pours and it's so easy for him to go under there. Yeah, that's the way it's been for us, really. It's been difficult, like I said, but I said to him, he's not the only player that's made a mistake for us this season.

8:39I've made plenty more than that, believe you me, but obviously when you're a goalkeeper, you get punished. To be fair to him, he'd been in the building a day, he came straight in after the game and sort of praised the boys for getting a point and took the blame for the goal, which I always like to see. I think anyone would tell you, Daryl especially as a manager, that if people make mistakes, it's important to me they own up to that. And he's done that after the game and he's made a big impression in terms of personality and hopefully he can be someone that can make a big impression throughout the rest of the season.

9:06He's got a contract at the end of the season, so he's playing for himself as much as he's playing for the football club to build his career. Obviously, we've got Jed is from West Brom here. I want to get your take on things there and ask, if you have someone like Eric Ramsey who comes in as a head coach when you are low on confidence, when you're making individual errors, How does a squad take to a head coach that's managed in the MLS that hasn't got any real EFL experience? I think it's difficult from the point of view, from a footballing culture point of view. You go from the MLS where relegation is not a thing.

9:43Us looking at it as English football, British football, it's just a very different concept. So I think, but we're not talking about an American person here. So we're talking about somebody who was born and brought up on football, was born here and brought up on football here. So understands what football here means to people from here and from this country. So I don't think we're talking about a culture shock or a culture war in that regard. The difference will be the fact that you go to football in England and the fans are out for blood if you don't win. You go to football in America and they're all having a great time and sharing hot dogs and doing all crazy stuff like that.

10:27Sharing hot dogs? Yeah, I've seen it. So it's just a very different culture. But what I will say is that we're not talking about an American person here. So his mindset will be very much along the lines of, we have to win, this is a relegation scrap, and I have to prove my worth. If I can prove my worth as a football coach, then the players will come with me regardless. As long as my message is right and my message is clear and concise. I think in that squad, and Jed will be able to tell you this and confirm this, there is enough footballing IQ where they'll be able to take on information, the information the manager is giving out, and they will be able to put that into practice.

11:10It's how quickly you put that into practice will be the deciding factor on which league West Brom play in. next season. I was going to say to Daryl, Daryl, we heard from Jed there, who said a few minutes ago, West Brom and Jalbion should not be involved in a relegation scrap in the championship. And on paper, that squad is too good to be involved in a relegation scrap. You had a similar sort of thing at Bristol Rovers. Everyone's turning around saying on paper, that Bristol Rovers squad should not be involved down the bottom end of the table. It must be really hard to keep up with, with that sort of expectation on a squad?

11:48Do you know what, Aaron, going on to Bristol Rovers, I'm a realist, though. You know, like you go in the summer, you get a group of players that are contracted to the club and then you're obviously, there's cuts for relegation and then you're working on things and you get a plan in place. But the plan in place involves still working with the vast majority of the budget of the players that are already in. You know, Bristol Rovers spent over a million pounds on Promise Omicieri, Shaq Ford. Sotario in the attacking options of the pitch. And, you know, great lads as they are, haven't produced what we've been wanting to as a football club.

12:23Now, to be able to change that round in the lower leagues, you need those windows. You know, a bit similar there to the West Brom manager at the minute. You know, he needs training time. You know, he needs those hours on the training pitch. But as we all know, the championship's relentless. The games come thick and fast. You know, the best thing you probably have is a couple of weeks with your boys Jed, if you agree, do you know what I mean? Where he can get his points across. But you get shoved into it. You're straight in the heat of the battle. You're straight already trying to pick lads' confidence up.

12:53You're already going into an injury crisis as well. So, you know, it's very difficult to see the wood from the trees when you're in the mid-season. A big issue for us has not been, and I include myself, and obviously been injured for three months. Regardless of who our manager is, you have to look at the quality of our players and our front players haven't scored enough goals. and our defenders have made too many individual errors. And that's regardless of who the manager is. I think it's too often now people hide behind the manager. I think we've missed gaping opportunities, all the players, and as individuals, we've made way too many errors.

13:25So we should be seven or eight points better off than we are because of those errors. And too many times, like Lyle touched on there, we can't hide behind the manager. We've got international players in our squad. We've got players like myself that have played 300-odd games in the championship. like we should know better to do better. But it's easy for me to sit here and speak hollow words. I think what we need now and what we spoke about a lot is we need action. Let's talk Leicester now. We're going to marry this up with what were you doing in 2016? Well, the trend that's flying around right now.

13:57So around this time in 2016, Leicester were beating Liverpool 2-0 and Manchester City 3-1 to go five points. Clare at the top of the Premier League jumped to 2026. They've just lost at home to Oxford. sacked their manager, Marty Sifuentes, after six months in charge. And the club seemed in turmoil, sat in 14th in the Championship. So what has gone wrong? Let's bring Kate Wattam from the Leicester Till I Die fan channel. Kate, great to speak to you. Leicester's return to the Championship hasn't gone as many would have expected, has it? No, but that's the Leicester City way, I think, unfortunately.

14:32You never know what's going to happen. They surprise you in the good ways and the bad. Genuinely, from the summer, it just felt disjointed, didn't it? With regards to the appointment of the manager, the time taken to appoint Marty Sifuentes. I think a lot of supporters were underwhelmed with the appointment. And then the dealings with PSR, overspending, the fact that you've had two relegations in three years, a potential points deduction, it's mounting up. Yeah, it is mounting up. And it's been going that way for a little while, really. We, you know, the first ask of relegation, we saw Enzo Maresco appointed, which you can't argue was an absolutely great coup for us.

15:11And unfortunately, he left us for passages new. So after that, we were kind of up against it. You're recruiting later on in the window. You get someone like Steve Cooper in because there's rumours of a points deduction that actually never materialised last year, which I do think hampered our managerial appointment somewhat. We were heavily linked with Potter and he didn't come. so you know roll forward another 12 months and another relegation and we just seem a bit stuck in a rut at the minute and it's tricky to get out hi Kate um Jed Wallace just wanted to ask you on obviously some supremely talented players there that we've unfortunately seen the wrong side of the people like Fata Wu this season obviously amazing finish against us to beat us a couple of weeks ago Mavidi and other Pereira like where do you see as a fan with the cycle of PSR and obviously those sort of level of talented players, do you see them being there next season or do you feel it's going to be a rebuild and try and make the squad a little bit younger, a few more homegrown players like a lot of the championship clubs are trying to do now?

16:07Yeah, I think Leicester's successful model was always to sell your prize possession each summer, that was the model that we're in and that was the model that was successful, so I can see us probably doing that again but you know Fatou is really tailed off and we've not had any players that have really outshone anybody else. They've not lived up to their potential. And that's part of the reason why we are like we are. You know, Fatou's scored worldies this season, but he hasn't done some of the easiest stuff that we'd expect him to do. But we saw Marty try and bring through the youth from Seagrave.

16:36And we've had a 16-year-old start for us in Jeremy Monger. And we're having players like Louis Page starting to real make a push for the first team. He's replaced Jordan James in the eight at the moment whilst he's out injured. So he looks really full of promise as well. So I think it's going to have to be relying on some of the kids at Seagrave, but it's got to be slowly does it with them because you don't want to rush these kids because you can overplay them for sure. Kate, is the issue that yesteryear's success of the last nine years at Leicester, 10 years at Leicester, is the issue that now there is an expectation to be in a much better position in the pyramid than they are?

17:14Because let's be honest, they've got an incredible facility in the training ground. They've got a good academy system that brings through promising young players. so is it the the the success that has come before that has caused this kind of rut that they now find themselves in yeah potentially the higher you climb the greater the fall I guess is is how it feels a little bit but I would say that the early parts of the successful years you it was a pinch yourself moment and then as time went on you genuinely felt after the two fifth place finishes in particular under Brendan that looking behind you and worrying about getting to 40 points was a thing of the past and then you know Brendan and that team failed miserably in the season that we got relegated so I don't think it's a bit of kind of expectation I think but also a bit of we thought there was genuine stability that Leicester would finally become a mainstay of the Premier League and we would you know be happy with mid-table or top eight going forward and we gambled we paid some big players some big wages and like humans can do they underperformed and we ended up getting relegated quite quite dramatically um so it's a mixture of yeah expectation and just wanting stability for the club and being the premier league team and it just didn't it just didn't turn out daryl we we've heard from the owner kun top in in the past few days in a very very revealing interview where i mean there was a wide range of talking points with BBC Radio Leicester's Owen Palmer-Atkin in a baffling interview.

18:47And I sit there and wonder, I know it's Leicester City and Lars talked about the incredible facilities and the great stadium. Is it still an attractive job to take for a manager because of what's going on with respect the circus upstairs? Very much so. But everything's timing. You know, for managers going into clubs and us managers, you can't go and pick and choose and go, this is the right time to go overtake Leicester. I think Brendan Rodgers, when they struggled at the division and he was trying to get out the door, I think he's seen what was coming, foreseen what was coming. And I think whatever managers then have followed that have found it more and more difficult as time's gone by.

19:30And with a club like Leicester, it's always going to want top managers and good managers to get there. Maybe someone that's failed somewhere in the champ but it's been successful before as well. So there'll certainly be a lot of managers who want to get the Leicester job, but also got to understand that, you know, there's a lot of financial troubles, it looks like at the football club and it's going to take a bit of time to turn it around. You know, I feel a little bit for Marty because I think, you know, you go into that environment, you need your three windows. It's as simple as, and you know...

20:00Yeah, three windows when they're spending nothing. Yeah, we still need your three windows because then you're assessing everybody in your squad, what you've got. You can tweak along the way, although you haven't absolutely got fees Aaron you can still start looking swap deals and what not start freeing up some wages to then get the squad that you need to be in it's very difficult to do it one window, two windows but that's the modern day game now it's no good as managers moaning about it six, seven months is probably the average now in the championship it's getting on the borderline and being a little bit ridiculous and the cycle keeps continuing but owners have a lot of money and they can do whatever they want with the football clubs.

20:40Kate, with a potential points deduction hanging over you, how concerned are you about being drawn into a relegation battle? Yeah, it is quite concerning. But the problem is with PSR, no one really knows, do they? No one really knows that if you break the rules by X amount of million, that this equals a certain amount of points. It's such an unknown. And there's part of me that still thinks we were so heavily rumoured, 99 % nailed on to get a points deduction in the summer of 2024. and it never ever materialized. So, you know, it's really hard to plan. I think we could get dragged into a relegation scrap if the points is anything more than six.

21:17And it's just something you've got to deal with. But the players are more than capable of, even with a six, eight point deduction, of not being down there. It's just whether they want to pull their weight and fulfill their potential. And they just haven't done that at the minute. And Marty didn't do that, which in my opinion is why he got the sack. You know, 99 % of Leicester fans would agree. that the board had provided Marty with a squad that's good enough to challenge for promotion. So therefore, the on-field stuff is probably where it's letting us down this season with the PSR rumbling in the background.

21:49Kate, really good speaking to you, Kate Watton there from the Leicester Till I Die fan channel.

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22:22Mohamed Salah represents a dream for Egyptians, for Muslims, for Africans. More than just a football player, he gave us hope. I'm Kelly Cates. This is Sporting Giants Mo Salah. Listen on BBC Sounds. 72 Plus, the EFL podcast with Aaron Paul. Cardiff cemented their lead at the top of League One with a comfortable 4-0 win over Barnsley. Daryl, do they need to be looked at as the model of a club? Lyle's nodding his head here, but sort of like a model of a club that comes down, hard resets in League One, doesn't go out and spend a la Huddersfield and you look sort of where they are, but installs a footballing appointment and someone who is going to go in and install a style of play where you can sort of build from?

23:12Yeah, no, exactly that. It's fitting that they haven't made many changes. Murph's gone in there and just, you know, got his style of play, the way he likes to play the games, a great way, doing a fantastic job. And he shouldn't go unnoticed. And I think sometimes when you go into an environment where the players are disappointed in relegation, but you know you've got some good talent in there, you've got some good young talent in there. It's all about getting them on the training ground, getting some confidence and belief into them. I think them early wins that he got give them a massive boost and then that gets the buy-in from the players and they believe in the way he wants to play, the way they want to go forward.

23:48So, yeah, it's a good model to have because you can have a revolving door as a manager. You know, let's turn another 10 out, 10 in, 10 out, 10 in, 10 out. But at the end of the day, for me, building that platform for success is trying to keep it as as as you can when you know you've got a talented squad that is with a few tweaks along the way there's been certain games that have built that good feeling around the football club the Chelsea game being one of them we we sat and watched that game together and they gave Chelsea a really really good game now my fear is that with this and I don't want to be disrespectful and call it academy style of football but If we make it as simple as saying this academy-bred style of football, if that academy style of football goes into the championship without an influx of experienced championship footballers, how does that look from a survival and a flourishing point of view in the championship?

24:47Yeah, that's a good question, to be fair, because you can get away with certain things in League One when you've got talent, you know, with the way they play the game. But then the physicality for me in the championship, if you haven't got that right amount of experience, you have the same problem if you do go up that they had last season. So getting that balance right, and I'm sure they will go up this season, and getting that balance right in the summer window where, you know, getting that three, four key experienced champion players, championship players in with a talented group that they've got now will help them out, but certainly needs to be looked at.

25:20And that's the difficulty is finding the right players, the right people, because if they're coming into your dressing room, they have to have the same values as the manager. And obviously the manager has the same values as the board. And then they have to be the right players to take on these young players and their potential future abilities and kind of mold that into really good championship footballers. That's not an easy job. and those players who you'd be looking at don't come cheap. I think they've built a really good core Cardiff City in terms of young players, homegrown players. There's a real good selection in there.