Can Arsenal go back-to-back?

24:34Aaron Paul:Clive, when you look at additions, Bruno Gimorainch is fabulous, isn't he? When he comes with the Premier League pedigree, with the quality and with the attributes that Mikel Arteta wants to add to this team. Yeah, I think this signing is so interesting because the end of last season, obviously we've won and we're dancing around the streets and enjoying ourselves. and I wasn't thinking at that time we needed a little bit of leadership and example setting because I thought we had enough. But actually, to have a bit more on-ball personality is no bad thing. For those in Budapest, you can see that we couldn't control the game, couldn't control the ball.

25:09You need people with big personalities that can help you do that. I think he's going to set examples with his energy and his passion for the game. He's like the manager, right? Look at the manager. If you've ever met him and looked him in the eyes, you'll know that he's a serious man when it comes to football. And Bruno looks very similar. And he's got a real presence and wisdom on the pitch. When he goes into collisions, he wins those collisions. He understands how to buy a foul, win the referee, negotiate his way through a game. He just understands. I call him an upper tier passer, right? So when you're sitting in the upper tier, you can see all the passes at the Emirates.

25:40You can see them all, can't you? But then he can see them all. And I'm thinking, well, you're down in the tulips, right? You're down in the mixer in there. But you can see all the passes. And I love that about him. He just sees it and he does it. And if it doesn't work out, his reaction is really, really good. So I'm really interested to see how this midfield co-exist with each other. And I know a lot of people like to pick their favourite midfields, but there's going to be lots of different configurations. And I'm so interested to see what we end up doing.

26:05Aaron Paul:Surely Declan Rice is the winner out of this because he looked exhausted in the summer. I mean, it's been a long season. He's all action as well. He never leaves less than 100 % on the pitch and he's such a phenomenal competitor. But if you're Declan Rice now, you're looking and thinking, right there's someone who can match my quality who's not just going to be a competition but we can coexist here really well, Cup. Yeah, and I also think he, you know, I think that's a, maybe Mikel's looking ahead with that because I believe Declan Rice played 69 games last year for club and country. That's a lot of football.

26:40You can't be going out and doing that every season because you'll eventually break down. And Mikel's now going to have that luxury of rotating a little bit more than maybe he did last year because let's be honest, when Declan Rice was fit last year. He played and understandably so. He's one of our best players. But every player has a breaking point as such and they can only play so many games. So I think a big win on that front is actually for Declan Rice. He's going to get a bit of respite at different periods in the season. On Gimmarais himself, I think is what Clive touched on there about being a leader.

27:17I think you only have to look at his record at Newcastle when he didn't play. I think he's missed 10 Premier League games for them I don't think they won one and I think when he played it was one in two or a little bit more I think it was that they would go on and win and that's not all just because he's a cracking footballer that shows to me that he can get the best out of

27:38Aaron Paul:the people around him as well Clive made a really interesting point about looking into Mikel Arteta's eyes and understanding what he wants from a player he was a joy to watch I mean, I'd say I really enjoyed watching him as a competitor. You played with him. You shared a dressing room with this man. Do you look at that midfield and go, yeah, that's a signature Mikel Arteta midfield. That is crafted by him. I think with Mikel, he has that fire in his eye himself, doesn't he? I think of his interview after the Bournemouth game last year. He said, I am fire. So he always has that fire in his eye.

28:19And I think he loves players like that. You can tell when he used to play like that, you know, he was fully committed, very skilful on the ball as well in terms of his passing, his weight of passing, his range of passing. So, yeah, I think all managers like to bring in, maybe bring in players that they can kind of see themselves in. And I think Guimaraas is that type and he's going to be a warrior for Arsenal. He says it himself, that's what he calls himself and you can see already. but he can also pick a pass I know you touched on it before I mean I watched the Como game in pre-season some of the passes that he can play through breaking lines you know he's not just he's a lot lot more than just a footballer he breaks up playing sticks a foot and he looks like he's got a lot of quality on the ball

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30:10You're listening to the Football Daily Podcast

30:12Aaron Paul:with Aaron Paul. Now, sports psychologist Dan Abrahams has worked with elite athletes from England rugby to the Premier League and also worked alongside Arna Slott at Feyenoord the year they won the Dutch Eredivisie title in 2023. The following season, they finished second behind PSV Eindhoven. And I spoke to Dan about the psychological challenges that come with defending a league title. At Feyenoord, we created some very simple terms that we could anchor ourselves to. in the 2022-23 season. HPM high-performance mindset. Every single player had their own unique high-performance mindset. They knew what they had to do to find their high-performance mindset as individuals and as teammates.

30:57And we really benefited from that throughout the 2022-23 season going on to win the Dutch Eredivisie title. And it's always challenging to follow that up. You know, complacency can set in. Teams are always bringing new faces. and opposing teams bring in better players and have new ideas. And so it was always challenging. And that following season, as you say, we finished second. Now, we did win the Dutch Cup, so we did have some success. But we just really carried on reinforcing the importance of players competing in their high-performance mindset, updating the mental models that they had. And we finished second.

31:34We got into the Champions League. We won that Dutch Cup. but no doubt PSV were better than us that season so did we fail did we succeed it's in the eye of

31:45Aaron Paul:the beholder when does the prep begin for the next season and effectively trying to build on what you've done but also shifting the the mentality from a we are going to be the the chasers who are going to try and you know lift this title to hey we've got a target on our backs now you're really doing it straight away coaches are back in bringing the right players in working with their scouts working to to bolster the squad and then from day one you want players hitting the ground running there's all kinds of different messages you know is it that we've never defended the title so we're going to set that as an objective or is it that you know we're just going to continue the processes that we we've done really well in the last season you're always trying to create mini stories and mini objectives in the minds of the players when they come back for pre-season for us I remember at Feyenoord, it was just, let's hit the ground running again.

32:40Let's have great leadership. Let's have great teamwork. Let's be even better than we were last season. And let's make sure no complacency kicks in. Because I think that word complacency is so pertinent here. You know, it takes a lot of energy. It's metabolically costly across the organization to win championships. It's hard to do, right? You've got to be on it every single day. And even taking a few weeks off, players can come in. they're still a little bit fatigued they're still a bit tired they're still blurry eyed if you like and that's where you've got to be on them as coaching staff and you've got to make sure senior players leaders are on it and the energy starts again essentially and how easy will it be

33:22Aaron Paul:for them to i use the term so often but you know go from being the chaser to the chaste having that target on their back and trying to emulate that success whilst also going one further in in the european cup i think it depends on what messages michael ateta used last season to help them win i mean um were they using the messages of you know we haven't won this for x amount of years was it since the invincibles in 03 04 something like that you'd know better than me you know what messaging was Mikhail Teta using can he use the same messaging he will likely vary it up ultimately my straightforward answer to you is not easy at all it will be stunningly difficult it is difficult these are these are complex environments filled with people striving to do the very best that they can do but they're human beings with different needs wants hopes doubts belief expectations all of them want to be playing and some of them will be disappointed some of them would have spent a lot of energy as a as i said metabolic cost driving things last season striving to win that premier league title last season and it does they it is easy to have a hangover because it can be so exhausting to do that we will see what happens you know they've already started one the community shield so we'll see uh so very very difficult very very possible Michael Aletissou and his coaches will strive to get the messaging right alongside his senior players he still has to drive those behavioral norms standards the leadership the mindset the teamwork he continues to chip away at that why not sports psychologist Dan Abrahams there still with us though the athletics Amy Lawrence Arsenal fan and podcaster Clive Palmer and former Gunners fullback Carl Jenkinson the word complacency came up a few times Amy I mean having seen the squad over pre-season, but also knowing the nature of the beast that is Mikel Arteta, his mindset, how he works.

35:24Aaron Paul:You think that's the last thing these players would be feeling? And I think Sunday showed it as well. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of, you know, people quite often throw around the world word complacency in football. And I don't buy it all that often, truthfully. I think people are generally trying their best and they can be different things that are affecting performances. I'd be more interested in what he was saying about how you recreate that hunger when you push yourself to the absolute limit. I mean, when you remember the enormity of the stress they put themselves under for basically 10 months, physically, psychologically, every single week, it was on a knife edge.

36:07It was absolutely so intense. And I do think there's a natural reaction to that. And I don't think it's complacency. I think it's much more of the hangover that I would have been concerned about. But it really linked in for me with this is exactly why Bruno's been bought. This is exactly why they went for Vinny. How do you change the dynamic in that dressing room? You know, if you basically ask people to climb to the top of the mountain, they do it. And then you have a little holiday and say, right, you're at the bottom of the mountain again. Let's climb the mountain again. That's really, really tough stuff.

36:38Aaron Paul:You've got to change it up. He's been mocked and ridiculed by supporters of other sides, Clyde. I mean, some people were labelling him sort of Brent-esque at points last season because of his antics. You think about the speakers on the training pitch pre-Liverpool, boosting out your never walk alone, and the drawings, and even sort of, you know, the documentary, which really highlighted what he's like as a character. But getting over that line and over that sort of, you know, that speed bump in the road of lifting the Premier League title, will it have will it have charged him up again and and sort of you know open up another dimension or do you think it would have taken the pressure just a little bit off the players and off Arteta with with everything that's done he's done in the past yeah I definitely think the pressure will be off slightly but at Arsenal they have this very much of a family environment amongst the players and they create this protective state around the team and within that environment they do what they do to motivate each other and I think if I was looking at Arsenal saying one if they can defend it when and they can do this.

37:40Well, actually, the way he would dress it up, he's saying, look at the opportunity we have. I think he would dress it up that way. We have the opportunity to do something special. We have the opportunity as a group of men together to do something else. Let's not think we have achieved it. We can achieve more. Do something, for example, before anyone calls me a deluded Arsenal fan, there's one trophy out there we've never won in our history that we got very close to winning last year. And it's quite easy to motivate a group of men to go and do that, because that would make you immortal amongst Arsenal fans if you do that.

38:09I think that's so important to set new goals and I don't see this as an issue for him. He is very much somebody that's really invested in leadership, people leadership and improving people and developing people. I am not concerned at all about this.

38:24Aaron Paul:We'll talk about the Champions League in a moment or so. Let's hear from Mikel Arteta. He's been speaking to Dan Rowan about the football club's ambitions going into the new season, this time as defending champions. Only three Premier League managers have ever retained the title. How confident are you of becoming just the fourth? Well, we've got an opportunity to do something that we haven't done in this football club. So that's the ambition, that's the desire, and that's the direction that we're going to take in everything that we do. Does it require something of a psychological shift for the players who have now achieved what the club wanted to achieve for so long?

39:01Aaron Paul:You're in a different position now. You're the target for other clubs. I think we all want to experience again the feeling of becoming champions and go through those motions and now it's like building a beast inside you that you want to go through that again and you know what it's going to take, you feel that you are capable of doing it and we just have to be so resilient every single day, so committed and showing the desire that we have to achieve it. You spoke I think at the end of last season about being ambitious again this summer. Are you satisfied with the transfer business the club has been able to do?

39:37I'm very satisfied with the ambition that we are showing to go to the next level in everything that we're doing at the football club. From the changes that we do in the stadium, so the connection we generate with our people, what we're doing in the training ground, what we're doing with the squad, with the staff. Then some things can be done and some others are not in your hand, but certain ambition is there. and especially what we put in the emphasis is with the people that we have internally to make them better and to make them feel valued and important. What does success look like for you this season?

40:09Retaining the title and winning the Champions League, is that your target? Ultimately, the goal, we all know that it is to win major trophies, as many as we possibly can. And what we have to do is make sure that we click the fire every day to players and the staff to behave in that manner.

40:27Aaron Paul:The ambition is there, Amy, for Mikel Arteta. I mean, the European Cup, it's been so close on a couple of occasions now. How do they realign? And does the sort of balance now shift towards the Champions League in terms of the ambition, the motivation? He's an ambition beast. He's an ambition monster. And I don't think he differentiates. I think he'll want it all. That doesn't mean he's going to get it. And, you know, the competition is as ferocious as ever, maybe more so. And I think that's where he made it clear in Budapest, like 15 minutes after that feeling of being so close and losing that final.

41:12and he sat there in the press conference and spoke about how immediately he was thinking about what needs to be better to be able to compete more, to be able to get over that line. And he knows there needs to be different ingredients. He needs a few more tools in the toolbox to be able to take it to a team like Paris Saint-Germain, a final. And as things stand, it doesn't look like the club have tried to do that kind of business, but they haven't got it over the line yet. so we wait and see

41:42Aaron Paul:Are you hinting towards Finisius Junior? Well that was a pretty clear statement of intent as to this is what we think takes us closer towards that level of promised land it was about as ambitious a transfer target as I think Arsenal have ever had and I remember when they signed Dennis Bergkamp and that felt like you know a miracle was happening because it was it was wild to be buying a player of that kind of world-class and established global star at that time. And Vinny was probably the one that actually even surpasses that level of ambition, given the way football has changed since then. But there wasn't an obvious plan B.

42:26You know, you always think when they're going into a transfer window, you've got your main set of targets and then you've got your next lot. But it's clearly the pool of players when you're in Arsenal's level, where you've been penalty kicks away from winning a Champions League and you've won the league. the pool of players that can improve you is small.

42:42Aaron Paul:I mean, Clive, when you look back at the past six, seven years and the evolution of the transfer strategy, I look back to the Raul Sinelli days and the players that you were aiming, your face was brilliant. The players you were bringing in then to the players you're after now and how it's evolved through Edu, Andrea Berta as well. With hindsight, do you feel maybe a little bit used by Vinicius Junior, a little bit played? It depends. I mean, from the outside now, people are saying, yes, they were used, But actually, there seems to be a real club commitment to make that deal happen. And when you start to do the numbers in your own mind and you realise the potential of a commercial explosion around the signing like that, the numbers would have worked.

43:22So in the end, he chose to stay and that's his right. And he got extra money from Madrid who didn't move for 18 months on the contract until the hospital knocked the door. And so from the outside in, you can say we got played. To me, it was a message to say what we're trying to be. So what are we trying to be? You want to be the best team in Europe. that makes you probably the number one club team in the world. If you set that ambition, you have to act like it. And they tried. And I think if you don't shoot, you don't score, right? So for me, that was a brave move. Now we've got two weeks to get the next things right.

43:51And every single club fan loves to see their club bringing new players, etc. And so we've got a couple of bits to do, one in defence and maybe one in attack. And there's time to do it. How we go about that's important, but there's still time.

44:05Aaron Paul:Carl, just looking at talking ambition, just leaning back on that. Martin Odegaard, after Sunday's win over Manchester City, came out and said, there are a few others we want to win. The Champions League is a big one. We want to win everything though, and that's the mindset. As a player in that squad, how important is it for you that the captain has gone out publicly and put down a marker? We're here. We want to win. This is our ambition. Bang. Yeah, I mean, I think that comes from the manager as well, doesn't it? I mean, he wants to win everything, doesn't he? That's all he talks about. He's so ambitious and Martin's his sort of mouthpiece within the changing room and sometimes out to the rest of the club as well.

44:47and it's a good message to put out there. And it's a realistic one, you know. We came so close last year, so, so close. But I will say I don't want to get too carried away with the main focus being on the Champions League. And the reason I say that is because I kind of don't want us to get ahead of ourselves in the sense that the Champions League is such a hard tournament to win. You know, I think the Premier League is such an achievement in itself, but it's over a prolonged period of games. and generally the team who is the best over that period of the game goes and wins here. Champions League is a different kettle of fish.

45:24You can go out on penalties. You've got some real elite-level teams from all over Europe. There's so many different things that can affect the outcome of that. That's not me making excuses that we didn't win it last year. Of course, PSG were fantastic, but my point is it's a very hard tournament to win, so I don't want us as a fan base having that as our sole focus We had such an amazing season last year. Let's enjoy that and, of course, go for everything, like the manager and captain have said. But one step at a time, I guess.

45:58Aaron Paul:Clive mentioned recruitment. Loads of talk about Arsenal's defence this season, the availability of William Saliba, and whether they'll look to reinforce further in the window. Let's bring in BBC Sports Arsenal reporter Alex Howell. Alex, good evening. There's been reports in the papers over the past few days and interest in Esri Konza and Jarrell Kwanza. Anything concrete in those rumours? Yeah, that's right. Arsenal have looked at both of those players. They're looking to bring in a defender that can play at centre-back and also right-back as well. And Konza and Kwanza both fit that profile.

46:32Konza, obviously, more senior, more experienced and proved it at the World Cup with England. But a difference in valuation where Arsenal see it and Aston Villa valuing him more closer to the 60 million pound mark which is obviously a high figure for a 28 year old centre-back and the same Jarrell Kwanzaa talks there with his camp rather than that famous club

46:55Aaron Paul:to club at the moment but he's definitely on the list where are we with attacking options as well obviously the Vinicius Junior deal broke down quite early on there's been rumors of Bradley Barcala is there anyone else in the mix and do you think Arsenal are going to potentially look to strengthen maybe someone who can play either side or is it going to be an out and out forward? As Amy was saying, they're looking for that player that can level them up and if you're looking for a player that's going to improve the Premier League champions and the sides that reached the Champions League final, there's a small group of players that can do that.

47:29Bradley Barclay is on the list but again, with those players, Arsenal aren't the only interested team in him. Liverpool are also looking at him and there's been a long-standing interest in Julian Alvarez as well. So, I wouldn't rule out a left winger or a striker those are both options but you're looking at a very small group of players that could come in and give the effect that Arsenal are looking for you have Gabrielle Martinelli who wasn't in the squad on Sunday in the Community Shield and then if you're spending a big amount of money you have to be a player that is going to at least lift the squad above what he can offer and he's been a very solid option for Arsenal over these past few years

48:07Aaron Paul:Alex thank you so much Alex Howe BBC Sports Arsenal reporter there with us Kyle just looking at the options at the back there are still cover places available there's players in there that can do jobs you look at Mosquera Ben Wyatt, Hinkapie they're players that can play multiple positions are you worried though about this situation with William Saliba and I ask because Mikel Arteta head of the community shield said as we know it's more of a long term injury how concerned are you with that? Yeah I think the main concern with that one is that it's a back injury and I think whenever you hear back you're always concerned because obviously it plays a big part in being physically able and yeah I am a little bit worried and you only had to see the moment that he went down and in the France game you could almost see he was saying that's enough kind of thing and I got the impression and from what people were saying he was carrying that for a while so don't know the ins and outs of the details but obviously you hope that it's not something too but at the end of the day he's an integral part of the team and I think the partnership him and Gabriel formed last year was just incredible and it was a big part and foundation of the success Arsenal had so someone's going to have to step in I've always liked Mosquera it's funny when you talk about depth I mean it's almost like these clubs you know generally in the Premier League they want depth upon depth upon depth these days you know they want so much cover in different positions everyone wants to play that exactly so then you've got to be able to manage that as well and manage these egos and these top players who want to be playing every week.

49:37So, of course, there's an argument to bring in a centre-half because of what's happened to Saliba. But you're right, there are some top players who can step in already in that squad.

49:47Aaron Paul:I mean, it's debilitating. I remember Rio Ferdinand talking about struggling with his back, and he struggled quite early on with his back in the mid-2000s and coming home and being unable to move and walk. It's a struggle. Is it potentially time, Arsenal? look for a long-term solution to this? Do they give it time? And is there a ready-made replacement in someone like a Hincapier available, Amy? I'd say the long-term replacement might be Marley Simon, who's a very young boy of 16, nearly 17, but has phenomenal ability and composure already. That tackle the other day was unbelievable. But expecting him to come into Premier League hurly-burly right away, that wouldn't be fair, I don't think.

50:36So there is this sort of like gap. There's a hiatus, if you like, between where Arsenal are now and when someone like Mali Sammer might be readier for that promotion. But the complication is, what kind of person are you bringing in? Because if Siliber is going to come back in three or four months and be tickety-boo, are you then going to have a bit of a surfeit of players and then you find yourself, probably not, because there's an awful lot of football to be played. But finding a, you don't, you know, William Saliba's don't grow on trees, so it's just not straightforward to replace him that easily, I wouldn't have thought.

51:14Yeah, they're carrying a risk on that side, right? Because it's not just about Saliba, it's about Urien Timber as well, who's had a growing injury and he'd come out of the World Cup, didn't make that, wasn't able to start the Champions League final and if he did, who knows what could have happened. and then you've got Ben White who had an injury towards the end of last season. He's already playing with a strap on his knee and he's somebody that doesn't mind a collision. So that could happen at any moment with him because he is a warrior. And so you're carrying a risk with three right footers on that side injury-wise and you're putting Mosquera into a really tough position of playing every three days.

51:49And I just feel you've got to de-risk that by bringing somebody in. And when people come back, I think there's a mentality change in the dressing room now. you're seeing it with Califuri and Hincapie they're like best mates almost but they're competing for the same position and I think people are realising you can't play 68 games any longer if you want to have a it's like buying a high mileage car if you want a long career you've got to reduce your minutes everyone's looking at Bruno Gimerais for example and thinking he's 28, 29, blah blah blah well he's paid 6 ,000 less minutes than Declan Rice but Declan Rice has got a higher mileage on this car than he has

52:25Aaron Paul:right so as a as a as a petroid i'll say declan rice is that he's diesel he's a six-cylinder diesel engine he's got an engine he's tuned it up nicely isn't he right and he's still looking good but um but we have to be wary of this right when you're trying to protect careers and make people have long careers you've got to look at that let's get some uh season predictions it's hard not to be optimistic especially when when you watch that on sunday where do we see arsenal finishing this season in the league I'm going to go with caution here just because I've seen Arsenal win the league quite a few times over various decades in my life and they've not defended it yet that I've seen so you always think they can because you look at the person that's just won the league and they look the best which is why they're always favourites the next year but I think it's a tough ask yeah it's a league of change but I'm going in two-footed mate I think we're going to be fine honestly I do think we're going to be fine.

53:18I think because we have our principles baked and we saw them on the weekend they're baked, we're connected, we're compact and we can control games on the ball or off the ball. I'm pretty confident but if that bloke's leave it was fit I'd be even more confident. Carl, champions again Ole Ole? Look, I think one thing that we have that a lot of the other top clubs don't have is that stability and I think you saw in the community shield how powerful that is. when you compare our performance to Manchester City's. So, yeah, I'm going to back us to go and do it again. And what a happy man will be at the end of next season if we do it.

53:56Aaron Paul:European success, yes or no? Do Arsenal win that coveted European Cup, Amy? Right now, I still think they're missing the magic moments a little bit. Karl's sold me up, so I'm going to hold on that one. Semifinals are best. No, I think I'm with Amy there. I think we need a little bit more in one or two areas. So we'll see. That is all we have time for on Arsenal. Thank you to the brilliant Amy Lawrence from The Athletic, Clive Palmer, who's an Arsenal fan and podcaster, and Carl Jenkins. And Carl, really wishing you well in retirement. Hopefully see you again soon in this studio. Thank you very much.

54:32Aaron Paul:You've been brilliant. So thank you so much.

54:38So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league. This is Five Live Sports.

54:45Aaron Paul:It's all eyes to the lights and foot to the floor. To ball him. It's not to stop out. Everyone standing around the 18th green. Overhead kick. That is sensational. He shows to the centre. And down to it. Oh, the right hand and the former champion is down. It's an extraordinary start. They've got on a show for us tonight. He gets on his knees and kisses the turf. Five Live Sports. The home of the world's greatest sporting events. That is the full time whistle. Listen on BBC Sounds.