Champions League Debrief: No wins for English teams in Europe

15:30John Murray:Let's learn more about Paris Saint-Germain 5, Chelsea 2. Well, with 16 minutes to go, Chris calls. It was looking like a really good night for Chelsea. and then something happened.

15:42Pep Guardiola:Kavica Kladetskiliya happened, Steve. He had quite the impact coming on just after the hour with the score at 2-2. And then half an hour later, he scored two. He's made one and Chelsea have a lot of work to do. It was an extraordinary game and it was an extraordinary end to the game because Chelsea played well and they'll feel they've needlessly relinquished a strong position. And it was a strong position. level at 2-2, 74th minute. Barclay and Dembele had scored for PSG in the first half. Gusto's equaliser sandwiched in between. The game was meandering along. Chelsea looked like they were going to hold on to take the 2-2 scoreline back to Stamford Bridge and then it all fell apart.

16:22Pep Guardiola:Jorgensen in the Chelsea goal, he'd been having a good game, then made a costly error, gifting the ball to Barclay, back to Vettinia, chipped it into an empty net. That was for 3-2, which again, wouldn't have been the worst result in the world for Chelsea, but two Kvaletskiela goals on minutes 86 and 94, a rocket into the corner, and then a low finish after another swift move to take the game away from Chelsea. And they need, like Manchester City, a very special night at home next week, if they're to progress. 5-2 Paris Saint-Germain.

16:58John Murray:Feel a bit for Philippe Jorgensen, because as you said, up to a point, he was kind of doing as well as you could expect but that isn't how it's going to be remembered clearly.

17:10Pep Guardiola:It wasn't just the saves that he made Steve and he made one excellent save in the first half to tip a Barker a shot onto the crossbar. It was how impressive he was with the ball at his feet. Chelsea were using him often to build their attacks from the back and his passing was exemplary. His positions he was taking were quite remarkable but then he'd faint, he'd dummy, he'd use his body really well he was playing like a goalkeeper full of confidence having been given this chance with Robert Sanchez only on the bench but as we've seen very high profile recently that goalkeepers they go from hero to zero very very quickly and having had such a good game it was that moment that really took the game away from Chelsea and you do feel for him because up to that point he'd been very very impressive

17:59John Murray:Chris thank you let's speak to BBC Sports Nizar Kinsella covers Chelsea for us and he's inside the Park Day Prance. Nizar, just give us a first-hand view there, having witnessed all that in person.

18:11Liam Rosenior:Yeah, I feel like I watched two matches. I watched a match from one minute to 75 minutes of positive Chelsea performance and then that high-reward approach just delivered nothing. They lost everything on the night and it felt like an absolute collapse at the end and I couldn't believe what I was witnessing. the tie thrown away after what I thought was actually a good performance for much of it.

18:35John Murray:Which is the odd thing about it, isn't it? Because I think if you just saw it on paper and saw Chelsea lost 5-2 to PSG, as frustrating as that will be for a Chelsea fan who will have really high ambitions for their club, of course they do, you can understand how it's possible against a team like PSG who are capable of doing that to absolutely anybody. But it will feel like a missed opportunity, won't it?

18:57Liam Rosenior:Yeah, yeah, it does. You know, when it was 2-2, I was thinking, oh, this could go either way. I thought Chelsea could even get a win at the Parc des Princes. You know, it was end-to-end. It was really good football. I thought Chelsea were creating. They were, you know, matching PSG. They're all over the pitch physically. It's like a man-to-man approach where they were getting pulled out of position, but pulling them out of position. And it was all going really swimmingly. But then that mistake from Philip Jorgensen seemed to affect the mindset of the players. You know, I felt sorry for him because he did have a good game.

19:30Liam Rosenior:I heard you saying earlier and then he just made that mistake. He's getting the biggest chance of his life in this massive game. And he's come in for Robert Sanchez. And it was a bit like Kinski yesterday, wasn't it? He sort of threw away the game in that moment. And then it's one thing one team may make mistakes, but then they all started doing it. And yeah, 5-2, it feels harsh from what I witnessed. But again, that's this Chelsea mentality. Young players throwing away games, you know, in discipline almost. It's not just the red cards, it's the way they're throwing away games.

20:03John Murray:Again, it's complicated. I mean, there is an argument that they don't have a good enough number one goalkeeper to succeed in places like the Park Day-Perrantz, I suppose.

20:12Liam Rosenior:Yeah, there is, Steve. I think that there's a bit of a question mark around Robert Sanchez, who was the number one really before and certainly was for Enzo Moreska. Now, Liam Rossini's come in and he's sort of done this approach where he's not really got a number one and he's rotating his keepers, seeing which one can take the shirt. But of course, goalkeepers like stability. They like consistency. They like trust. And I just wonder if that's not the ideal approach really in this scenario. And yeah, Jorgensen's come in, maybe deserved it, maybe been knocking on the door, but yeah, has not taken his chance, unfortunately.

20:49Liam Rosenior:I actually did think that Sanchez hasn't been that bad this season, but he had two poor games against Arsenal under Resinia and it's sort of seen him drop. So yeah, he's been good otherwise other than that. But yeah, it might be time to look at Sanchez again for the Newcastle game.

21:05John Murray:I'm going to make sure I do this with you, Nizar, because we've had to remember to do it with all of the other games, which is to remember that whilst we are sort of dissecting disecting the English teams, all of whom in one way or another have struggled in the Champions League. I mean, Newcastle's performance against Barcelona aside, despite what happened in the last few seconds of that game. But we also have to remember the opposition and Chelsea fans won't necessarily enjoy that, but this is a heck of a PSG team. I mean, any team that can start with Kvaretz-Skelia on the bench, that almost tells you everything you need to know.

21:35Liam Rosenior:Yeah, exactly. You must have read my piece that I wrote. I haven't yet, but I look forward to it. No, I was thinking the same. It was, you know, the firepower they've got. It's really ended. You know, this tie has been ended partly on PSG's firepower. Barclay was exceptional today. Dembele, who's not been the player he was when he won the Ballon d 'Or.

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23:09Liam Rosenior:Last year through that Champions League win, it was brilliant again and re-found his form. And PSG had been under pressure before this tie. They were facing criticism of their own domestically, but this is a reminder of what they've got. Kvaret Shelly are coming off the bench and Due was brilliant to set up the goal, although he was at fault as well for Enzo Fernandes getting an equaliser. So, yeah, the four main attackers are just unbelievable. And I think it's the best attack anywhere in Europe right now.

23:38John Murray:And we can get some reaction now from the Chelsea head coach. Here's Liam Rossini.

23:41Steve Crossman:Very disappointing result. And in the evening where for much of the game, I was really, really happy with our performance. The last 15, 20 minutes are crazy in many aspects. And that's on me. We need to be better in moments. Setbacks, mistakes happen. But you have to stay calm in a moment, me included. And we didn't. And we were punished by a very good team, which makes the scoreline a painful one because we were, for 75 minutes, way in the tie and in the game itself.

24:14Liam Rosenior:Do you stand by the Philip Jorgensen decision because he played well up until that moment but it seemed to unsettle things?

24:20Steve Crossman:Yes, players make mistakes. Philip's not the first one to make a mistake and that's part of football. Obviously, it's a bitter... In that moment at 2-2, I think we're in the ascendancy we're an inch away from going even to 3-3 I think Enzo's goal is like an inch offside Jao Pedro's goal off the Enzo offside but in the top level in the Champions League level is fine margins and the fifth goal was the most painful one after a flashpoint we don't settle ourselves down we don't deal with a basic pattern of play and they score a fifth goal and make the tie very difficult for us

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25:48Ali Bruce-Ball:On the Football Daily Podcast. Champions League Debrief. With Steve Crossman.

25:53John Murray:So let's get some more reaction then to our first commentary of the night in the Champions League, which was Leverkusen won, Arsenal won. and they will be, in the end, delighted with that, especially given what's just happened to Chelsea and Manchester City. Lake Kai Havertz penalty against his boyhood club levelled the tie. I've been speaking to our commentary team out there, Ali Bruce Ball and former Arsenal defender Matt Upson. And an obvious place for that conversation to begin is the fact that Mikel Arteta, in the end, will absolutely take that.

26:21Ali Bruce-Ball:Do you know what, Steve? We've just been sitting here in the aftermath of the game and we haven't got the sound up, but we can see Mikel Arteta doing his post-match interviews And he does look noticeably, obviously not delighted, but relaxed and seemingly quite happy. And I think he probably realises that Arsenal have got away with one a little bit tonight. I mean, even if they had gone into the second leg 1-0 down, you probably would have backed them to turn it around. But it was one of those performances again, Steve. You know, I've commented on Arsenal quite a lot recently. And it's been a hard watch.

26:52Ali Bruce-Ball:It didn't flow going forward. There was one brilliant move in the first half where Martinelli crashed the shot against the crossbar. Then they switched off, you know, at the start of the second half and conceded. And didn't really think they were going to get back into the game, possibly from a set piece. Mikel Arteta was bold, obviously, and took Bakayosaka off with half an hour to go. You know, he wasn't getting any joy down the right. Maduweke comes on, wins the penalty. And then, of course, the headline had to be made by Kai Havertz back here at Bayer Leverkusen and took a really cool one.

27:20Ali Bruce-Ball:But they're going to have to play better. You know, talking about them trying to win all these competitions, you're going to win the Champions League. Going to have to play better than they are at the moment.

27:28John Murray:Which leads me, Matt, to I think what is sort of the big question around performances like this one from Arsenal tonight, which is, is it just an inevitability that however big or strong your squad is, this is the time in a season, if you're in so many competitions, you are going to start to struggle? Or is it a genuine concern, what you've seen, not just tonight, but in recent weeks?

27:51Paul Robinson:I think it's always different, Stephen. This is the point. It's like it's always moving. and it's the manager's job to pick the right team, to identify the moods that people are in, where they're at with their independent, personal performance levels and put that all together to make the best team for whatever the occasion is. And now there's a lot of moving parts there, aren't there? We're talking about, you know, the form of Bukayo Saka today looked a little bit off colour. There might be a perfectly legit reason for that or just whatever that may be. But knowing that, building into the game and then seeing it and going, right, OK, we'll just take Bukayo off and put Nonny on because he looks fresher and he has an impact on the game.

28:31Paul Robinson:I think he's going to have to do that a lot from now to the end of the season. And I think he's going to have to get those decisions right. And it's not easy. And I think the players' performance levels for me at the moment are just a little bit up and down. I look at Eze and think, could you bring more to that game from that position? I didn't quite get enough from him tonight.

28:50Ali Bruce-Ball:Matt made the point in commentary really early on, Steve. first 15 minutes of the game of, you know, Martin Odegaard is out at the moment. And there's been some debate about Martin Odegaard this season, even when he's been fit. Some Arsenal fans feel he sort of slows the team down a little bit. But Matt made the point at the commentary right at the start that it was really missing Odegaard there in the Eza role, with a bit of intensity and constantly threatening and trying to thread passes in and sort of make things happen. And that's what's not quite there for Arsenal at the moment until Madiwaki made the dart and won the penalty.

29:20Ali Bruce-Ball:And, you know, and again, I mean, they've only lost three games all season, but it's just it's just it's just a bit stodgy at the moment.

29:27John Murray:And that, I suppose, is where all the nuances come in, Matt, in that you've got someone in Madweki who we can see is perfectly, perfectly comfortable coming in for Saka. And you'll see the best of him straight away. They don't necessarily have that in all positions. So the question becomes, will they have it in enough positions?

29:46Paul Robinson:Yeah, I mean, I think they probably have got it in enough. I think, you know, defensively. They deliver consistency really, really well. You have to say goalkeeper, two centre-backs, full-backs at the moment are almost nailed on unless there's something going wrong with them. I think that they're not likely to change. You look at Zubemmendi and Rice. I think Rice does, you know, his regular performance. He gets about the pitch. Zubemmendi might not be operating quite at that level in terms of the passing and the creativity. But I think the whole team is just suffering. a little bit from trying to produce and create goal-scoring opportunities.

30:26Paul Robinson:They're not coming and flowing in open play anywhere near as much as what they were in probably October, November. When you think back to those brilliant Champions League wins against Bayern Munich and Atletico, there's a lot more flow to Arsenal's game. And it's just, as Ali said, it's stodgy, but this is the season. It's not going to be perfect for the whole duration. And the difference is, what are you going to do about it when it gets like this? And at the moment, they're getting away with it in terms of the results. You can't argue the fact that they're plodding along. But if the results, a couple of them do go the wrong way and the performance is like that, then it will all of a sudden turn into a real problem.

31:07Paul Robinson:And that for me is my biggest fear for Arsenal. If that happens in the next four to five games, how is that going to reflect on the team and the mood of the camp?

31:15John Murray:and we should mention as well Ali that Leverkusen were actually really good like it's it's it's not just we we can't just review everything by uh were Arsenal good or were or were they not you know there are contributing factors and the opposition were one of them yeah they were really impressive

31:31Ali Bruce-Ball:Steve and if you look at them in the competition this season they've they've grown into the competition they didn't start well and were on the back foot after the first three games but look They've been to Manchester City and won this season. Newcastle came here and drew 2-2. You look at their European record, I think last three and a half seasons, 19 games in this stadium at home. They've lost two, one against Bayern Munich, one against Paris Saint-Germain. So you've got to be a really good team to beat them in this stadium. We'll see how they get on next week in North London. But I thought, yeah, I thought they were really impressive, actually.

32:07Ali Bruce-Ball:They had a plan. They looked a well-drilled unit. They were in good form. Impressive individual performances in there too, Matt. That's why Mikel Arteta is smiling.

32:15Paul Robinson:Yeah. And generally, I mean, I know we expect Arsenal to get a more positive result, but that is a good result based on that history, how well they played, how poorly Arsenal played at times. And, you know, the two midfield players of Garcia and Palacios were absolutely excellent. They stopped Saka coming inside. They supported the wide player when Martinelli was running. They were really useful to the ball. they played out from the back and got through. The 19-year-old centre-forward, Kofane, was just superb. He occupied Gabriel and Saliba for most of the game.

32:48Ali Bruce-Ball:Yeah, and the goal they scored, Steve, was a sloppy one from Arsenal's point of view because it was a set-piece and Andrush was left free at the far post. But the move that led to that corner that Leverkusen scored from was absolutely brilliant. They caught Arsenal napping right at the start of the second half. Fabulous move involving three or four players downfield and Terrier's header was tipped over the bar by David Raya. So, you know, they will pose a threat. You know, this is not done this time. Definitely not done.

33:14John Murray:And just to finish, Matt, of course it was Kai Havertz in the end. Try and put yourself in his shoes ahead of that penalty against his boyhood club.

33:22Paul Robinson:You just knew, didn't you? I think we said before, you said to me, it's going to be Kai Havertz.

33:27Ali Bruce-Ball:We said in the car on the way to the game, Steve. We were all doing our predictions. And I actually said, I said 1-0, which I just felt it could be a 1-0 Arsenal night. And you said, well, Havertz is going to score, isn't it? I said, yeah, he will. but it didn't quite come off like that.

33:39Paul Robinson:It was just meant to be and I was pleased for him and I also felt a bit sorry for him as well in the sense that you've now got to put this penalty in and his celebration was very muted because of the respect that he has for the club and how they developed his career and all of that which was great but I thought Blasic really tried to make it difficult he delayed the penalty, it took forever and he stayed very calm very focused and just stroked that penalty into the bottom corner

34:06Ali Bruce-Ball:it was a good pen and I think Steve just going back to our our conversation we have with Matt there about you know Mikel Arteta having to to find a way and who's ticking and whatever I think Havertz could be crucial in the closing stages this season you know he he's had injury problems this season but he said yesterday ahead of this game he feels that he is 100 % fit back on it and ready to go Mikel Arteta sort of backed him out and said in terms of the training he's been able to put in in the last few weeks he is now there and he is the kind of player I think in different ways that can make a difference for Arsenal.

34:37Ali Bruce-Ball:I think that's a great example of someone who could be really important for them, you know, trying to get some of these prizes by the end of the season.

34:44John Murray:OK, let's hear then from Mikel Arteta.

34:46Matt Upson:So the game had different phases. Some in the first time where we were very dominant and we had a big chance with Gabi to put a 1-0 and when you miss those chances, obviously the game can change. Then after that, we didn't finish in the factions. I mean, every time we got in and around the box, We gave the ball away and that allowed certain counter-attacks very unlike us. And without really conceding nothing, we needed to solve certain things. We discussed at halftime and we expected to start very fast, especially because we knew certain routines that they have on kick-offs because they had three at the weekend and still we get caught.

35:25Matt Upson:We're not ready enough. We conceded a chance on the header and after that we conceded the goal. So when you give that hope and advantage to the opponent at that level, they're going to take it and then we had to really dig in because emotionally it becomes a very different challenge and we had 10-15 minutes that we didn't really have enough threat and enough understanding of how we have to attack that block but in the last 20 minutes 25 with the changes I think it was much better and at the end we found a way to score the goal and throw the game

35:54John Murray:Right, that's it for this episode of the Football Daily the next episode will be the EuroLeague so don't forget to join us for that and as always thank you so much for listening

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