England lose to World Champions Spain at Wembley - 5 Live reaction

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1:06This is the Football Daily Podcast with Aaron Paul. And the world champions extend their world record undefeated run to 39 matches in a game that swung one way and then back the other but it was ultimately Spain who came out on top and England will rue the missed penalty from Harry Kane when he rattled the crossbar that might have taken it out of Spain's reach but Spain came back they levelled it 2-2 and then Oya Sabal with a winning goal 16 minutes from time and England for the first time since 2013 have lost back-to-back matches at Wembley Stadium. It has finished in this Nations League opener in A3, an entertaining game, England 2, Spain 3.

2:00Aaron Paul:Elsewhere in A3, Czechia have been beaten this evening by Croatia. Goals from Luka Modric and Marco Pasalic and Croatia a 2-1 win away from home. England, of course, on the road next up. We will be with them on Tuesday night as they go to take on Czechia. Coverage beginning on 5 Live Sport from 7 o 'clock. We'll be with them throughout this extended international period because then they travel to take on Croatia. That's Saturday night, 5 o 'clock kickoff at Live on 5 Live Sport and then return back onto Homesaw. Tuesday, October 6th, England welcoming Czechia to Wembley. My name's Aaron Pothway.

2:46Aaron Paul:You also get the thoughts of Paul Robinson and Matt Upson. Gentlemen, I mean, do you want to just sort of, you know, have it open-ended? What would you like to say? What are your thoughts after that defeat? Because there are so many positives that we could take and there are negatives. It's peaks and troughs, Paul. Yeah, I mean, there's two sides to that England performance. There's the susceptible England defensively, looked to have defensive problems and looked vulnerable every time that Spain went forward on the back foot, left players open, gave away far too many chances. But saying that, two of Spain's three goals came from individual errors that could have been avoided.

3:24And England looked so good on the front foot. And going forward in the final third, what they created and the players that they have, when they got the confidence back from suffering that blow of the early goal, going one behind, you could see it really rocked this England side. And it rocked them for a good 15, 16 minutes in this game. and it took them a long time to come back into it and they played their way back into it. Thomas Tuchel would take a lot of heart from the way that his team played their way back in and they got themselves into this game and for large periods of this game they were the dominant side, they dominated possession they had the territorial advantage but they didn't create enough to go on and win a game.

4:00Spain's then quality came through and England's Achilles heel again was shown at the back but what Thomas Tuchel will take from this is that his side have got heart, they've got fight but once again we're talking about a 90 minute performance a 95 minute performance they were good and probably the better team for large spells of that game but not over the whole game can i

4:21Aaron Paul:just can i just draw sort of you know attention to what's going on the pitch right now you see the spain squad coming through the subs the coaching staff welcoming the players back into the dressing room you look at england it's it's sort of like a semi-melancholic trudge around wembley led by harry gain and it feels like he said lads we have to do this and he's dragged them over to the far side Wembley's near enough empty on that side they've been over to the southwest corner of the Spain players but they're together and we mentioned a united they're a force and no matter what the highs and lows were in this game Matt they they were resilient Spain and we will talk about England of course but the world champions just turned it on when they needed to at this level the the little things really count and and I think when if you were to step inside their camps.

5:06Say at the start, before training or at the beginning of training, they'll all do Rondo boxes. Theirs are unbelievable, Spain. If you pass the ball the wrong side, it gets cut out and it gets noticed and it gets flagged and it's like the detail that they have and the standards that they push and they press, I think is phenomenal and it's why they're the best in the world and I think looking at that as an example I think you can learn a lot from how they operate and the value they put on those kind of things and you saw it in the game every now and then and Robbo's alluded to the fact that England had those surges like the Anthony Gordon adrenaline rush moments which were brilliant and I think we looked a threat and it was it had character it was bold so a big tick in a lot of those boxes but then you start to peel back to those little management situations in the game where that little bit of fine detail matters I thought we got pulled out of position big time in terms of the back four two centre backs, I thought Gehi had a funny game which had really good one on one moments came out on top on quite a few occasions but then just was a little bit, a yard or two out and against these guys you'll get punished and England did and that for me was the difference in the game, I think that management side of the game is huge when you play a team like Spain.

6:28Aaron Paul:I don't want this to be the football moan and it's not going to be the football moan because there were some exceptional bits of play there from england in terms of you look at the direct nature of the running pakaya saka fabulous every time i got on the ball really energetic vibrant caused them problems when he was cutting in on on his left and and able to to cause cause those issues did we see enough of it maybe not but again signs but what i want to see more of is is the boring stuff not not the high octane stuff i think we delivered that today but then all those little things like rodry conducting that midfield there the safe side passing that he has doesn't give the ball away a couple of times he gave away start of the second half really uncharacteristic and england nearly scored but most of the time is moving it it's just it's so precise and measured and the movement off it and the out of possession they're just a little rung up in terms of organization and ability to do that and then the subs change the subs were massive for me they really impacted the game and Spain's again just kicked on and actually elevated that team for that 10-15 minute period we bumped into a good one let's let's be honest we bumped into a good one that England performance tonight would have been enough to put any game to bed yeah and the the long spells of pressure and ascendancy that they actually had but we've come into a side once again we spoke so often tonight about England's record about the top 20 about the top 10 once again we've come up against the Gooden and fallen short and there's nothing more highlights that than the bench Thomas Tuchel's in-game changes affected the game in a negative way they lost the flow they lost their feeling and the forward thinking all of a sudden they were sitting deep allowing Spain possession and once they got in the ascendancy the quality that they've got, the two substitutes that they made, I mean, a goal and two assists between them.

8:22Sorry, two goals and assists between them. And that's a huge difference when you look at the bench and you look at a manager who's able to make that kind of an impact on a game.

8:30Aaron Paul:My pal Spike texted me through the game and said, it looks like they won the World Cup yesterday in terms of the fluidity of the movement, the way they do things with such effortless sort of, you know, it's just beautiful in places. It's poetry. whereas at points we look cumbersome but again when we direct yeah and england pushed forward and and they attacked again anthony gordon excellent get your head down go for it and yeah and be a bit selfish and show your style quality and players tried to show that but there were mistakes in places absolutely it's because we're athletic we're powerful we've got good we've got top talent there's absolutely no doubt in that but if you're going to start to to look at the elements of a team, you can see why Spain are the best in the world.

9:18If you think about it, England would be, at international level, if you make the mistakes that England did with the Gahey and O 'Reilly that led to Spain's first two goals, at international level, regardless of the opposition, you will be punished. On a positive side, I think that Thomas Tuchel will be encouraged by seeing elements of what he wanted from the players and that must be more offensive than the World Cup to impose a Premier League style and what they've done tonight they've achieved more than what Portugal France Belgium and Argentina did against Spain at the World Cup by really giving Spain a good game of football and scoring two goals in the process and missing a penalty and missing a penalty so it is fine margins I wouldn't be surprised if Tuchel uses that word fine margins not taken away from the fact that Spain with the fine margins could have already been 2-0 up it had they created the taking and the chances they created in the first half.

10:12Taking my pundits hat off now and sitting there in Wembley as a fan, I would much rather see England lose like that. Going down, having a proper go and a fight and enjoy a game of football. Watch that from an England team. Playing on the front foot, not defending, going forwards. I would much rather see England losing, having a go at the world champions than just giving them too much respect. You can see the crowd really getting into it. The guys down here, they really enjoyed the game tonight. The supporters got behind it. Everyone was off their seat. He had that, because it flowed moments of the second half especially, it was like you have a go, we have a go.

10:46It really flowed well at moments.

10:48Aaron Paul:That's when the game was at his peak. Let's hear from the head coach. Thomas Tuchel is with John Murray. Thomas, they clearly are the best team. They're the world champions, number one in the world. They don't need a helping hand, do they? Yeah, we helped too much. We had too many individual big mistakes, unfortunately, on that kind of level. Started the game in the worst possible way, made things very complicated for us. The reaction was good, so there's no one to blame. This kind of things happen, but they happen too often to us on that kind of level. If you want to beat the best team, it was too many gifts.

11:22The reaction was good. We still conceded two big chances from big mistakes in crucial areas without any pressure, unforced errors. Then we stopped doing our mistakes. We survived the two big chances, grew into the game, created more and more. We were, I think, in the first half not clinical enough in the last 20 meters. Otherwise, we could have created even more. Once we started, to be precise, we created, then we converted chances. We had the full momentum, could have scored a third one in the first half. Second half was an excellent start, maybe one of our best 20 minutes that I saw on this kind of level.

11:58We're totally dominant, clearly the better team. Lifted in their half, created chances, opportunities, and got the penalty. and this may be unfortunately the decisive moment today. I think in this moment when we go two goals up, there's no way back for them and it didn't happen. Unfortunately, another mistake for 2-2 and then the momentum shifted again. And Harry Kane slipped, didn't he, taking the penalty? Yeah, otherwise he normally doesn't miss. Yeah, and I think anyone who is listening, watching, will realise that that clearly was a turning point. There was a certain amount of embracing the chaos, wasn't there tonight?

12:36Not so sure. I think we defended chaos in terms of... I'm not sure if it was a lot of chaos today. We had an incredible amount of high ball recoveries in the opponent's half. I think 15 more than Spain overall. I think 15 in total in the first half. That only goes against a team like Spain if we play man-man. So we were very brave. That sometimes means that you follow and you are out of position. But we did it on a high level. Got a lot of reward from it. The defending in a deep block was excellent except for the third goal, where we got cut open through the middle. This should normally not happen.

13:26And offensively, I think we played in a clear structure. We tried to switch sides a lot. We tried to put the fullbacks up to make the difference, and they did. A lot of good stuff, but unfortunately not the result. Would you still say that you are closing the gap that there is between you and the top teams? We saw no gap today, except for the technical execution in the last 20 metres. They were superior than us.

14:01Fall flavors are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market. Cozy picks all through the store, like maple leaf cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake, here for a limited time, and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day. Sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer. While you still can, spice up fall at Whole Foods Market. At QVC, fall shopping is more than just checking out. It's discovering the brands you love across beauty, fashion, home, and culinary, all in one place. Whether you're getting ready for crisp mornings, cozy nights, or everyday moments, QVC has what you need for the season ahead.

14:50With brands like Laura Geller, Philosophy, Ninja, and so many more. Shop now at QVC.com.

15:02In the early 90s, women's tennis was having a moment. This is a match that will live in the memory of all of us forever. Steffi had been so dominant, suddenly along came Monica Sellers. She hit the bar big, she hit two hands off both sides. And just when tennis fans were licking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights, One of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Selesh has been stabbed by a spectator. This man stole her story from her. Sports' strangest crimes. Tennis' darkest hour. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the Football Daily Podcast.

15:45With Aaron Paul.

15:48Aaron Paul:I really want to hone in on a point you made pre-game, which is talking about mentality about having that in the trenches mentality when you are put under pressure and in you you picked on it i think it was a 12 minute spell where you said england have not created anything and and you refer back to being in the 66th minute yeah and that was a 78th from what i remember and what i've got written down here how do we get out of that matt how do we get out of that gear when it's a case of we are it's back backs to the wall we we need to start progressing further up the pitch? I think it's small steps.

16:21I don't think you can jump from where we were in that reaction in the World Cup against Argentina to now all of a sudden it being right. So was it a step forward tonight? Yeah, I think it was. I thought the way we approached it when we went 2-1 up was very good. Half-time I thought, well, this is going to be really interesting because Spain have got a chance to come back out. We've got 15 minutes to sit around. You're out of that rhythm. You've got to come back out. And how are you going to impose yourself on the game? I thought the first 15 minutes of the second half were brilliant. Produced chances Spain couldn't cope with this, forcing Rodri into errors with the ball, out of possession, we were all over them.

16:55So that reaction, we played with a belief that we were better than Spain. And it showed, and we could have gone 3-1 up. And at that point, we may well have won the game. Absolutely. So from that perspective, I thought there was a big jump. But then to continue to do that when the other team are then starting to get in their rhythm, that for me is where that detail starts to kick in. and keeping that ball, passing it safe side, making that decision to drop off instead of go. All those little in-game management decisions that are happening every second of the game between 11 players, that's when that really does count.

17:29And you say Spain look really in sync, don't they, when they're in that flow.

17:32Aaron Paul:Well, Giam told us it's a 30-year process. That's what I mean. And all the information that they took. And now they've got players that make really intelligent choices on the field. I think that's our next bit that we work at. but there was some really good signs tonight. Could they have done with a bit more from the crowd? No, I thought they were excellent tonight, in all honesty. But the corner, you could hear them. Well, of course, yeah. When they're winning, you can. And they're the world champions, so they're coming here for a celebration. This is the first game since the World Cup final.

18:00But no, the England fans were absolutely outstanding tonight. The atmosphere was building before the game, the pyrotechnics before the game, the show that they put on. This is the best atmosphere that I've seen in Wembley for a long time. Granted, we're playing against the world champions and there's a lot of build-up before the game and it was a sellout but I do think that the crowd played their part in a good way this evening. Matt? Yeah, I thought the game offered up something that was worth getting out of your seat for at times and that's what we saw from the support. It was a good watch. It was a good watch.

18:28It was worth the entrance fee. Absolutely. And you can't say that about that many of the games that we've had here over the last couple of seasons haven't been anywhere near as level and as combative as what this was with them at the ball. The crowd really enjoyed it.

18:42Aaron Paul:So from a defender's point of view, tomorrow morning when you sit you watch the analysis and you watch the game back how do you start to repair the leaks the gaps because Spain cut through just a little bit too easily yeah you I don't think you can continue to make those errors can you so you know Mark for instance will think well start of a game at this level can I afford to be that relaxed in that moment he's quite a relaxed player anyway it's a good trait of his because he's very calm but that that there the start of the game right I'm stepping in with the ball I can't turn out here if I need to spin it up the channel and into space and give away possession that's not a disaster the ball's safe and we'll get up the pitch you know those little in-game decisions that have affected the outcome of the game you have to go away and you have to log that next time that situation occurs you have to make a different choice and if you don't you have to get pulled up on it and and and then the consequences will be what will be some people will keep working at it.

19:44Sometimes you might lose your place in the team. You know, whatever the manager feels is right. But that for me is then building towards making those decisions right. And if we did that better, like Anthony Gordon said, then the result would have been different.

19:56Aaron Paul:Matt, hold on. We're going to head down to the bowels of Wembley Stadium because Anthony Gordon is with football correspondent John Murray. Yes, he is. Anthony Gordon here in front of me. Well, just give us a reaction. Anthony, your reading of what happened tonight. Yeah, good game. One I thought we were in control of. I think the penalty is a massive moment. I think if that goes in, we're in a much better place than obviously when it doesn't. But H slips and it's football. It's not you can do about a moment like that. I thought all their goals were based from us, really. I thought there were our mistakes.

20:30And I think at that level, against that opposition, I can't afford to do that. There was an element, wasn't there, of embracing the chaos at times in that match. there were a lot of different passages to it, weren't there? Yeah, I felt good. Like I said, it was a bit of a rollercoaster of a match, but I always felt like we were in it, you know what I mean? I didn't feel like we were treated. Just speaking about the summer and everything that's gone, all the controversy, I didn't feel like that was the case. I felt like we went for it. It must have been a great game to watch, I imagine, for fans.

20:58It was a great game to play in. And like I said, just mistakes at the highest level always going to punish you. Yeah, it almost was a Premier League-style match, which I know we were talking about earlier in the week. problem is they are world champions world number one European champions they are a very good team aren't they and they showed it tonight yeah they're the best in the world for a reason I think the difference with them is if they get the lead like once it went to 3-2 you see their ability to really control possession and that's what I spoke earlier this week about once you give them that lead and it can be anyone nor us any team in the world I just think it's going to be really difficult to get the ball back I think against someone like that you've really got to go for the throat which we did we come out really well second half and I think the penalty was a massive momentum shift and already this week we've spoken to you about being disappointed that you were substituted off in the semi-final having scored tonight as well I guess you were disappointed again I'm always disappointed when I come off only just because I want to score more goals and I want to be part of every part of the game I want to get more assists I want to excite people who are watching me but tonight I felt like it was maybe the right decision because I felt a bit tired.

22:08I'd done a lot of long distance running and at really, really high speed. So tonight I've got no complaints with the manager taking me off. He'd done what was best for the team. I thought Morgan, with his energy, with his athleticism, was a good substitute to come on the pitch and really make an impact. And yeah, tonight's got no issues. So just sum it up, just the feeling you'll go away from this tonight with? Kind of mixed because I feel good. I feel like we performed. I feel like we were good. we went for the throw, we kind of done everything people have wanted and what we've asked of ourselves we just lost to the best in the world but I said earlier the gap's not big in my mind and I think tonight proved that, we just need to obviously not make mistakes at the highest level Thanks Anthony, thanks for coming over

22:53Aaron Paul:Thank you so much John, football correspondent John Murray with England's Anthony Gordon there Pepe, he was upbeat following that defeat, he says the gap is close. There is no real gap to Spain. England have been beaten here at Wembley tonight. But Matt Upson, just some really interesting takes from that. I found it interesting when he was talking about Thomas Tuchel taking him off. Yeah, interesting, wasn't it? I think he may have made the best decision for him, but maybe not the best decision for the team. If he said he felt a bit tired and a lot of high-intensity runs, because he is that adrenaline surge player, isn't he?

23:30So when he goes, it's high-octane and it's high-energy and high-effort. but I couldn't see a positive to taking him off. The game was so finely balanced at that point that I just felt having him on the field, he was the one player for me that was actually leading the charge. So it just felt like it ran out of a little bit of steam once he went off the field. He was very diplomatic, almost like somebody had a word with him about his previous comments about the manager taking him off.

23:56Aaron Paul:Well, Paul, let's hear from another England player. Jarrell Kwanzaa is with John. Yes, we've already heard from Anthony Gordon and here is Jarrell Kwanzaa starting at right back tonight. Just give us your overview on how it went tonight. Yeah, I think for the neutral it was a good game. Obviously, they took the lead early doors and fighting from adversity and coming from 2-1 down was really good. We showed great mentality and I feel like after half-time as well we managed to really step on the throat and really try and give it a good go. In another day we go 3-1 up and we kill the game but unfortunately we couldn't and when they had a bit of momentum they were able to capitalise and probably that's the biggest takeaway from today.