Euro Leagues: Champions League final preview

23:43Julien Laurens:It's exactly the same. How can I get better? Joaquin Valdez as a psychologist can help me. This guy will help me. You know, this guy inspires me. Like Manel Estillate was Pep's right-hand man, but, you know, just helping him out on everything that he needed to be so he could focus on the game, on the football, on the pitch, etc., etc. And at some point, those guys just don't fall from the tree like that. You need to find them. But as we know with a lot of those guys, they end up by finding them at some point in their career. Yeah, they look for them. Yeah, I agree with you. Even younger managers realize that that's important, especially in the biggest clubs.

24:15The problem with having Mikel Arteta, Luis Antic in charge of these clubs is that the stories are a bit less interesting. I'm just looking at PSG before. I started digging in stories like when, confirm if this is true, of course, you're a biographer of Mbappé, but 18-year-old has a meeting with representatives of PSG and says that in the contract, he has to say that he's got to play every single game. Neymar had in his contract with PSG that there will be games he wouldn't play away and there will be certain periods coinciding with the Rio Carnival that he will not play. That was in contract. Kobe Bryant came to a training ground and Unai Emery was in charge and Unai had a day off for the players.

25:00Mbappé and Neymar wanted to train in front of Kobe Bryant to impress them. and Brescian, of course, Unai won that battle. But those battles leave scars. That was the PSG before. There's none of that now. We're going inside the mind of Mikel Arteta and Luis Enrique. We're going to do that with some of their star players shortly as well. But we're zoning in on Enrique for the moment. I've been speaking to his former assistant manager, Jesus Casas, who he worked with both for Barcelona and the Spanish national team. Jesus is now a head coach himself. He works in Singapore. for Sahiri is on all sides of his former boss, everything from man management to football philosophy.

25:38Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think he's thinking in attack, in his team, OK? He focuses on his team, how to improve it. Obviously, he analyses the opponent, but always with the idea of attacking and pressing. He's reading the match, how is their attack, how is their pressure. Is he an obsessive then? Is he obsessed, do you think, with his job? Obviously, because he's very good, but he's way too convincing the players. He has a very different quality, like, for example, Pep Guardiola or Mikel Arteta. They are top in this kind of things. So do you see a similarity between those three then when it comes to what we would call man management, how they speak to a player of any level to get the best out of them?

26:29Julien Laurens:He has a vantage. He was top player. So he knows the dressing room. He knows how to feel a player. He knows your best moment when you win and the worst moment when you lose. So he knows the moment to push one player with the moment to support one player. I remember, for example, in Euro 2021, in Spanish newspaper, a lot of press about Morata, for example, Alvaro Morata, he didn't have problems. OK, tomorrow Morata and 10 players more. No, no, no problem. So the player always with these kind of things, he died with the coach. Do you see then the look on players' faces when Luis Enrique is speaking to them?

27:21Is there something sort of in their eyes in the way they look at him that only somebody like Luis Enrique can create within them the emotions of working for him, do you think?

27:34Julien Laurens:Yes, yes. For example, I remember in the Champions League final against Juventus, the meeting before the match, all players obviously were nervous with their face. It's different. In his meeting, I remember, OK, the worst thing today is what is other players? I don't know where we don't fight. No, no, no. The worst is being Juventus. because if you are Juventus, you have to play against Messi, against Neymar, and the face to the players were changing in that moment. So he's special in this aspect. So it's that message of don't be afraid of them, they will be afraid of you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

28:23Julien Laurens:We can lose, obviously, but don't be afraid. Play, enjoy. Of all these star players then that played under him when you were working with him, which of them comes to your mind straight away as somebody that he had the biggest impact on? His player is different. Each match is different. He knows the situation. I remember, for example, with Gerard Piquet. He was very hard at the beginning in Barcelona. and with other players like a father. So it's different in each situation. That makes a lot of sense. Sometimes you have to be the father. Sometimes you have to be a little bit more angry. When is the angriest that you have seen him with his players?

29:15Julien Laurens:He's very angry when one player doesn't follow the plan. Because he lets the mistake. For example, remember again with 2021 in Euro. Unai Simon has a big mistake, but no problem. You can take a mistake, no problem. But if you don't follow the plan, if you don't follow the model, your attitude is not good, probably you don't play a game. The idea of being the father as a coach, I think, is really interesting. Does it feel like a family atmosphere? Because as most people know, families are sometimes angry. Families are sometimes kind. That's how we live, isn't it? I think maybe Guardiola is like this kind of coach.

30:04Julien Laurens:Maybe Luis is not a very good atmosphere. No, it's a bad atmosphere. But I think he's not worried for these kind of things. Family, I don't know. During my experience, it wasn't a very important factor, obviously. He tried to disturb the players. Outside, he don't disturb the players. He prefers that the players are free. I think he's not this kind of coach. I'd be interested to know what you think his future might hold. Do you think that if we were to fast forward six or seven years, that there's a chance that Luis Enrique will be able to boast the same level of success as even somebody like Pep Guardiola?

30:50I mean, he's already on his way with Champions Leagues, of course.

30:53Julien Laurens:I think so. I think he always said that I don't want to be a lot of years coaching, but right now in PSG, he has an excellent project. He wanted to go to UK Premier League too. So, but I think in PSG, he's very, very comfortable. He always said, no, no, no more than three years. The project, two or three years, two or three years. But right now, I think he feels different. I think he's very, very happy with the team, with the project, with the players, with the situation. Let's finish with this then, Jesus. How did you come to be working in Singapore? Where did that opportunity come from and what excited you about it?

31:37Julien Laurens:Yeah, I was looking for a good project. But sometimes in Spain, it was difficult. We had a lot of offers, but different countries, different projects, no good stability. So in Singapore, the football is growing in that country, in the national team too. The club is top, facilities, the training ground is like Europe. The structure is very good, so I'm very happy. Obelis so far from Spain, from the family, but it's impossible to have in all in this world.

32:38of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits. It's a fourth cricket and it's the huge one. Jeez. Settle down, sorry. Cricket on Five Live Sport. Oh, I've lived every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds.

32:56On the Football Daily Podcast, the EuroLeagues with Steve Crossman. We're focused on the Champions League final. It's our EuroLeague special, ESPN, Julien Laurent, Guillaume Balaguet, both with us. Quite a bit that we could unpack from from his as Casas there. I think, Guilherme, it might be nice to start with the idea of nobody is exempt with either of these two managers, Luis Enrique and Mikel Arteta, from discipline and sometimes anger when needed. Nobody is too big to receive that. No, they walk a straight line and you just have to walk behind them or the same line and you change from it and you're out.

33:35There's that famous picture in the documentary on Luis Enrique where he walks into the changing room of PSG and starts throwing the bottles away. Not this way, not this way. This is halftime of a game in the Champions League. And he was like, I don't mind losing, but we are training in certain way. And if you don't those days, then you're all out kind of thing. You can imagine that happening. And then, of course, there is key moments this season. Carvazhelia was benched against Chelsea in the last 16 because because he was not in good form. And then, of course, you know, fire in the belly and then he comes out, assists and scores two goals.

34:11Dembélé was also 10 minutes late before the last training session against Arsenal. So he gets benched as well. And with that, you get so many benefits, the obvious ones, you know, everybody plays like a team. But then, do you know that PSG is the team with the fewest yellow cards in Europe's top leagues? I did not know that. So, you know, I think it's a reflection of emotional control and everybody playing for everybody instead of just being angry or just being focused. And then, of course, he doesn't, he said it before when Mbappé left, he prefers to have five players scoring 10 goals than one that scores, you know, 50 or whatever.

34:50And this season, PSG have got 20 different goal scorers. That is the collective approach. But all that has to come because somebody points out the line, the light to follow and everybody does follow. If you're wondering why there's a bit of sound in the background, it's because correspondent John Murray has just arrived at the hotel and appears to be ordering everything on the menu. He's very hungry. Just before the kitchen closes. Right, little quiz question for the two of you. From our EuroLeague's team, who do you think wrote this? You hear this opening sentence to an article. Which of our team wrote this?

35:24At Marco Verratti's wedding, Kylian Mbappe introduces himself to Zlatan Ibrahimovic. You need a deeper voice than that because that's James Horncastle. Of course it's James Horncastle. It's the most Horncastle intro of all time. Genius. It's a lovely piece, but it also, I remembered reading it this morning, a very famous story where Luis Enrique is talking to Kylian Mbappe and he's in training, he's like, hey, I read that you like Michael Jordan. Well, Michael Jordan grabbed all his teammates by the proverbials and defended like a son of a expletive deleted. and that just goes to show, again, it doesn't matter who you are, Jules.

36:03If Luis Enrique thinks that you have warranted that in any environment as well, people talk about Pep and what he's like with players on the pitch and whether it's performative and that. He doesn't care, Luis Enrique, does he?

36:16Julien Laurens:No, and he shouldn't care anyway. Whoever you are, he will always do, this is what you have to do for the team and if you don't want to do it, that's fine, but you're just out. and that works for the players, for his close technical staff, but also for the wider staff that you have in a football team like physios and things like that. I think since the start of last season, there's been eight or nine changes in that bigger staff, because he's very demanding. So he goes with Kylian and he says, listen, you're world class, you're an amazing striker. I think he says in the crack, he said, like the Spanish say a lot.

36:54Julien Laurens:Yeah, as in like world-class, amazing. I need you to run though. You know, goals are great. I need more from you than just that. Hence the Michael Jordan greatest player of all time with the board, sure. But defensively, a monster defensively too. And that was the example that he took. And if you, it was not in the end with Enrique's call if Kylian stayed or not. It was Kylian's decision to go and leave as a free agent. But you have to follow what he wants you to do. otherwise and the demands if you don't do it at the level of excellence that he wants you to that he requires it's okay you just can't do it then somebody else would come in and do that job for you because i think at that level and again i don't think michael is there just yet because he's younger and he hasn't won as much obviously than than with enrique but when you get to center level for you for luiz enrique to be successful and we go back to the psychologist and all of that he needs to be with people around him who share that kind of degree of excellence and the demands that he would want to be able to follow him otherwise it doesn't take you with him yeah the journey of Luis Enrique is full of cadavers of people that are falling off with him and will you stop killing people I must have watched a horror movie last night I just did Robert Moreno for instance the national man they were he was his close assistant second or third and then when Luis Enrique, for personal reasons that we all know, had to leave the national side, Robert Moreno gets asked and he goes, yeah, I'll do it.

38:24And that was it. Luis Enrique felt that he was betrayed by Robert Moreno because you're with him or against him. There is no medium way. And to this day, Robert still doesn't know what happened, hasn't been able to speak to him and will not be able to speak to him because he's very, very, yeah, black and white, Luis Enrique.

38:42Julien Laurens:There's a ruthlessness about it. But again, I think when you get to this level, it's inevitable. Otherwise, it's like a jungle. It's like sharks. If you're not the strongest of the sharks, then somebody else is going to come and eat you alive. This is the story. And I think you get to a level where, in terms of how tough you have to be, and I think both Mikel and Luis Enrique are tough anyway. They don't need to be told you have to be tough to survive in this kind of environment because it's excellence and this is the highest of the highest. But they are ruthless and you have to be. And if you're not, then you're not just made for the top of the level in football.

39:21Julien Laurens:And other sports might be a little bit different. But in football, it's that. And they have that in them with players, with close staff members, even friends. If they feel something is not right, this is it. You're out. And when you're out, there's just no way back, usually. It's a good metaphor, Jules. But I actually think I'd fancy myself against a shark in the jungle. I think that would be the one place where I think... How? Well, sharks traditionally live underwater. No, but like, you know what I mean? Oh, you're picking. Go on, Guillaume, sorry. No, the more we chat, I mean, we could be here for three hours or more.

39:59In fact, what are you doing after? Because this conversation should be continued. But talking about how you have to choose who is with you in this war or shark battle or whatever, crossing across the jungle. It reminds me and links a little bit with Arteta and Pep Guardiola, if you don't mind me doing that. No, of course. Well, Casas opened the door to that, didn't he? I think we have to do that. Let's do it now. So just in regards of, we can talk about the influence of Pep Guardiola on both, of course, and on football. But do you know that when Arteta left City, they didn't speak for ages, for years.

40:39Pep Guardiola and Arteta, they did not speak. two things for it because Arteta when he goes into the next thing he goes into the next thing and as Jules has been describing this is absolutely everything 100 and 100 percent there and Pep feels that people should be a little bit more gracious if they've been actually learning from the encyclopedia of of Pep or if they've been uh given the opportunity to be in that environment of course they help Pep but at the same time it was like you know I think the feeling is that that somebody who's been with Pep has to go back to Pep and thank him and be gracious.

41:14And that didn't happen. So it's only been in the last year that I don't know which one ran whom, but one of them made a call and they're back. Perhaps somebody that was thinking that he was leaving made the call, I don't know. But they didn't talk in terms again. One of the things I think is interesting as well, Guillaume, if we talk about the comparisons between the three, is it would be dead easy to go, oh, Spanish managers. But one of them is Basque, one of them is Catalan, and Enrique's from Gijon, isn't he? Which that's like closer to Andorra than it is to Barcelona. So totally different backgrounds.

41:49And personalities as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Can I have a minute on why Spanish people, Spanish managers succeed? And he goes exactly as hard. That'll be your shortest answer of the night, mate. Go on.

42:01Julien Laurens:You've waited 15 minutes. I mean, play it. Yeah. Of course you can. I put it in the group that I want to talk about. this. No, please. And that was a really good way of doing it. Because they actually are linked to the root of why Spanish coaches succeed. And for me, it's three pillars. First, the university. Spanish football went to university to study. It was a physical sports education course, that is four years, in which you specialize in a sport. That nobody This is in the 90s. And nobody in the world was doing that. So obviously what you create is coaches prepared with a vision, a methodology, and deep understanding of learning and the training processes.

42:50What happens is these guys are just physical coaches in theory, but with a lot of knowledge. When they go into the market, what they see is that former players get teams but don't have that knowledge. and these former players or whoever is that employs them, the idea of the manager to be converted into the game, they are the bridges that do that. And every single of those three and every other Spanish manager that has succeeded has got those that have learned so much that they can put in tasks, in exercises, their idea converted it into the game. That's the first thing. The second thing is the Basque football culture, which, as we've spoken many times, and there's so many of them, no?

43:36Arteta, Iraola, Enigo Pérez, Xavi Alonso, Allistarán, Emery. The culture is related to work ethic, daily effort. They are very big on sports, on competing as well. And these coaches transmit authority via knowledge, not so much coming in trying to conquer the world or becoming the big personality. They just want to adjust and adapt to wherever they go. And they live in a small country in which they have to go out. So they have to adapt to survive. And the third one is, of course, the Barcelona influence, heavily influenced by Johan Cruyff, that develops an obsession in Spanish football towards understanding the game.

44:19The players understand the game, and these players are now becoming managers. It's all about knowledge, and a knowledge that we got there first. and as a consequence we've got these guys that are succeeding six what is it six out of eight finalists of the European Cops including the women's are Spanish coaches I'm not sure it's going to happen again so we needed that minute what is it now? Two minutes talking about it We've been here for an hour so the way that I thought we should finish this is throwing it forward ever so slightly we're going to talk about some players in a second but just to finish on Enrique and Arteta I think this is a big question and a difficult question but I think it's a worthwhile question do we think either or both of these two coaches are in the job now that they see as being their absolute top of the top or do we think either of these coaches will have maybe another job that they will think whether it's in two years or five years that they want to do at some point

45:18Julien Laurens:if you see what I mean yeah I see what you mean um if if we start with Luis Enrique and I and I go first and Guillaume can go, I think he loves those projects. I think he loves arriving somewhere like a PSG and be given free reigns, in a way almost, with budget to spend because let's not kill ourselves. This team has also cost money. Dwayne is expensive for a 19-year-old. 50 million is a lot for a 19-year-old. Kvaira Scalia, as amazing as he's been, is still an investment of 70 million euros. In January, not everybody can throw. So there's been money involved, but still, I think those projects really appealed to him in the sense that I can be free to do what I want and shape this team and this squad the way I want.

46:07Julien Laurens:Young players, and what's really interesting here, apart from getting rid of the players that didn't really feel were on board, like a Verratti, like a Neymar, and then like a Mbappe and stuff like that, it's also signing the players, and that's where they're so good at, both of them. with the help of sporting directors and etc sure but they just know exactly what they need to what kind of player they need to make this team better so when we send ricky and with compost go and find joy neves for example who's an 18 year old from from benfica who's not many people have heard of it's because they just know exactly for the kind of football they want to play and this relationism that is very in trend right now that recently he's doing so all those variation all that movement, all the spam mutation.

46:49Julien Laurens:If you go and get this tiny, young Portuguese who's never come out of Portugal before, but he's maybe the smartest player you would ever play with or coach, then you know this is perfect for what you need. And Mikel Arteta has done exactly the same with his Arsenal squad. Let's not forget, because we talked about Luis Enrique and Pep Guardiola, who usually have inherited, certainly for PhD and Man City, some top squads, even before they made it better, by investing more and by improving those players. Mikel Arteta arrived, and we said that on Sunday, Premier League show before, and it's not a dig at Rob Holding or Socrates or Mustafi, players like that.

47:29Julien Laurens:But this is the kind of players that, when Mikel Arteta arrived at Arsenal, were in the squad. When you look at his first squad and the current squad, it's day and night, obviously. And I think this is also a big part of the success, is that they know exactly who to get that will improve their team. And they're both in two different life trajectories. Arteta is 44 and Luis Enrique is 56 and he's about to renew his contract. So will Arteta. So, you know, Luis Enrique has been national coach of Spain. He's won the treble twice. I think he's done it. I think he's picked at least twice in his life.

48:08He'll add the three years at Barcelona Villa as well as part of his picking. But Arteta, he's just starting, as Jules points out. He's just starting. He's getting it right and wrong, more right and wrong, and look at this season. But I can see him how, having taken Arsenal to the maximum of his capabilities, which could be after the next contract, how he could just become the Barcelona manager. Why not? And maybe even national manager. So he will find other ways to motivate himself. At the moment, he's the boss, doesn't want to go anywhere, but there'll be a time. Right, let's bring in our special guest then.

48:46Miguel Ángel Ramírez has been head coach of clubs like Real Zaragoza, sporting Gijón in Spain. He's been in charge of teams everywhere from Charlotte in the USA to Al Wacra in Qatar. But crucially for Huz, he was also in charge of Independiente del Valor in Ecuador, the club which launched the careers of both Arsenal's Piero Incapié and PSG's Willian Pacho. Miguel, good evening. Thank you for joining us on the EuroLeagues. Hello, everyone. Good evening. Lovely to have you with us. Firstly, how does it feel for you to see these two guys who you've helped grow to become the players they are, not just playing in a Champions League final, but playing against each other?

49:28Yeah. Now, first of all, thank you for having me. And yeah, imagine it's crazy. It's crazy. I don't know if this happened before to one coach because I had them in the academy in Independiente del Barrio in Ecuador. Piero in the U16 and Bac in the U18. Then they made their first debut with me in the first team. And now playing against each other in the Champions League final is something, yeah, weird, crazy. Are we talking about two guys here who it took minutes or days or weeks or longer for you to look at and think, oof, special player? Yeah, I mean, they are just, yeah, competitive animals.

50:21And since they were in the academy, especially maybe Piero, you could see being under 16 and joining us in the first team, being U18, how he was breaking the GPS data and repeating axioms and yeah, really good on the ball, good game understanding. Paco had maybe late moderation that he got with the time and with the minutes in the first team and then in Belgium, in Germany. But both of them are like, yeah, like really, really good competitors and they are, yeah, beasts.

51:07Julien Laurens:The way Paco moved from Frankfurt in Germany to PSG like he did. I mean, there was not many people in France, for example, who you knew about him when he was signed and made that step up, which I guess is the same when he left to go to Belgium and made that step up. Then from Belgium to Bundesliga, it's another step up. And then Bundesliga to PSG and the Champions League. Did you always thought that he had that, having that capability of making that step up every time and raising his own level? Yeah, not at all. Not at all. When he was at Independiente, Of course, it has the structure, the body.

51:42He was so, so strong, but still not coordinated, not good on the ball. Of course, winning duels because this big body and super strong, but with difficulties to build up from the back as we were requesting in Independiente. but he overcome every single stage that he faced on and off the field because he faced like really tough situations also in his life but he just overcomes once and twice and every time so he was adapting to the difficulty in Belgium first and then in Germany and he got the PSG challenge already matured and with the tools enough to be able to respond to Luis Enrique's demands.

52:46Miguel Angel, you must have heard this story. We've all heard it after winners of a final like this get asked, you know, did you get many messages from people before? Oh yeah, there was that young coach or coaching youth that inspired me and I loved it And when I got the message, I got so emotional. Have you sent the messages yet? I'm always in touch with them. Yeah, for being the academy director at Independiente and then the first team coach, but especially being the academy director, you were their father and mother because they were living there far from their families. So I was the father and the mother of Paco and Inkepi and Caisseto and all of those guys that were with me in 2018 and 2019.

53:36So, of course, I'm in touch with them. And I got the invitation from Pacho a few weeks ago. I said, hey, prof, are you coming to the final? I couldn't make it because I was supposed to be coaching Manweb F this weekend in the league, but I got psyched two days ago. So straight away after the meeting with the sporting director, I text Pacho, Pacho, I'm in. I'm going. You did not need to do that. You did not need to be sacked. You know, I was so quick getting the tickets, the flight tickets, the Airbnb, and then Pacho, I'm in. So you just booked the ticket. so I'm also so happy because it was a great opportunity for me to see them both playing and I couldn't make it but then you know always to get the positive side of the story I can be there So you're coming you're coming to the final Of course, of course tomorrow I'm flying early morning from Copenhagen You know you were saying about being a sort of a father and a mother it's really interesting because we've been talking about Luis Enrique and Mikel Arteta and a bit of Pep Guardiola and the idea of coaches who sometimes need to be sort of a father to some players and need to be really, really disciplined with others.

55:06So as a coach, did you coach both of these guys the same or did they need different things from you? I mean, of course, every one of them needs different approach and different kind of communication. And so, for example, I was talking with some friends today and the relationship that I had with Pacho is different than I have with Piero. Because with Pacho, I had like too many conversations about his personal life. So, for example, when he lost his mom and with the situation with his family. so I had too many conversations with him when he was with me at Independiente. So, of course, yeah, every player is different and every player demands a different way to approach and a different kind of communication and relationship.

56:05But, yeah, maybe I was more aggressive with Piero sometimes because of the kind of mistakes that he made because he believed a lot of his potential, so he made sometimes shitty mistakes in the games. And Paco was the opposite. Paco was so nervous at the beginning and overthinking. So my approach to Paco needs to be different than I did with Piero.

56:36Julien Laurens:You also mentioned Mosek Aycido, the Chelsea midfielder, who also came from your academy. Why is it in the water in the Middle Valley? Because it's not just them three. We can mention others that went through your academy and then went to Europe and everything. You know, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. But Independiente del Valle is covering every single village in Ecuador. Every single football school. and you know in small villages with the coach that in the afternoon he brings some like two, three balls and he just creates a training session for five, six, seven boys that they're living around.

57:23So also with these coaches, Independiente del Valle has a relationship. so of course Independiente is first getting the best talents in the country so the first step of Independiente del Valle is the scouting like every single talent in the country Independiente del Valle is there, it's always first always first and also because of the the historic the background of Independiente del Valle gives the confidence for the family. So if they need to choose from Independiente del Valle or other club in Ecuador, the family chooses Independiente del Valle because of the education, because of the trainings and because they know that the way to the first team is really clear and really open to the academy players.

58:22So this is first. And then a methodology, a training method, a clear game model, a clear vision, and a big budget to provide the tools for those talents, to develop the talents. So, of course, this generation had talent, but they developed good habits. So, of course, Ecuador before had great talents, but maybe they didn't get the education. They didn't get the training. They didn't get the quality work that this generation got. And they developed good habits, good training, so they were prepared to go to Europe, to go for the best standards in the world. That's why this generation, for me, is more prepared than others before.

59:15And I just wonder if you can take a couple of steps back and look at Ecuador in general, beyond Independiente. And if you can say that some of the good success of Ecuador in the qualifiers to the World Cup ahead of Brazil just before Argentina, second in that table, and some people we were discussing ourselves being that horses possibly in the World Cup. If that has to do with that, with the methodology being implanted, not just that Independiente and coaches being very good. 100%. 100%. I mean, the big percentage of Ecuador national team Independiente del Valle players. And of course, yeah, the structure of Independiente del Valle is so strong.

1:00:01In the education side, so they have a top, top school, private school in the club. And they have all the resources like psychologists, teachers, and physios, and every single staff, every single age group staff is full-time. So since the U12 are professional coaches, full-time at Independiente del Valle, you don't find this in the biggest club in Spain, since the U12 having professional coaches being full-time in the club. So, of course, this is a consequence of vision, a strong vision and project and spending a lot of money because a fixed, a set percentage of the budget of the club is direct going to the academy to provide them the best facilities, the best coaches, the best tools for the development of those talents.

1:01:10Miguel, this is actually our last Euroleagues of this current season and we've had many, many guests on over the season. you have comfortably been one of the best. So firstly... He likes to give medals. Thank you. Thank you very much. And also congratulations on being the first manager I've spoken to who can laugh about being sacked two days after being sacked. So thank you very much. It's been wonderful to talk to you. You know, with the time you got used to, so, you know, and also you know how this circus works. so you know nobody die and just move on because another project will come and of course if I take the positive is that I will be able to watch after tomorrow a great game with two sons you know with Incapier and with Patrick your boys of course this is so so important for me yeah Miguel thank you again and safe travels and yeah hopefully we'll see you here in Budapest thank you thank you of course thank you guys thank you I just keep one line from that conversation that nobody died.

1:02:19Yeah, that's correct.

1:02:20Julien Laurens:Oh, no sharks in the jungle either. No sharks in the jungle. That was Miguel Angel Ramirez, former head coach of Independiente del Valle, who coached both Piero Hincapier and William Pacho. And as Jules said, Moises Caicedo, they were all in that same team. So if I was Germany or Curaçao or Ivory Coast in their World Cup group, I'm not sure I would have massively enjoyed that conversation. Right, that's it for our EuroLeague special. Looking ahead to the Champions League final. Don't forget you can listen to full commentary of Paris Saint-Germain against Arsenal with us here on Five Live. We'll be live here in Budapest at the Puskas Stadium from three o 'clock on Saturday with extensive build-up.

1:02:55And then the game kicks off at five o 'clock. As always, thank you so much for listening.

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