Euro Leagues: Is spying acceptable in Europe? Neuer & Neymar return to the World Cup

24:05So rather than flying somebody out from Germany, would then join late on if something happens to Neuer. The guy is already there and he's clearly willing to just come along, even if his chances of playing are quite low, as an understudy. but he is actually the keeper I think who will inherit Neuer's gloves in the post-World Cup world

24:26James Horncastle:should he buy Nagelsmann some socks I'm not sure if it really enhances or reduces his chances the jury's still out after the Bauman sock are those socks in sandals as well because that's very German no no he was wearing trainers but it's worth looking at them I mean, they are very distinctive. I'm not sure I would wear them ever, but, you know.

24:53Julien Laurens:Nagelsmann has a dress. I remember when he was the Bayern coach. We used to wear Leipzig. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thomas, where did you get those gloves? They're great. Oh, Phil Foden gave them to me just before I picked the squad. Harry Maguire didn't give him socks. No, he didn't. And now we know that's an exclusive.

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25:46All the cricket you love. Check for LBW. Ouch! Lives on BBC Sounds. Smash straight back down the ground, this girl. Hear ball-by-ball coverage of the biggest competitions

25:58James Horncastle:on the domestic and international circuits. It's a fourth cricket and it's the huge one. Jeez. Settle down, Tuffer. Sorry, man. Cricket on Five Live Sport. Oh, I've lived every ball of this. Listen on BBC Sounds.

26:22You're listening to the EuroLeagues on 5 Live ESPN. Julien Laurent, The Athletics, James Horncastle, Rafa Honigstein, all with us. Let's talk Brazil, Carlo Ancelotti's squad. Obviously, the headline is that Neymar is in. No João Pedro, no Richarlison. We were talking about this, James, a lot around Neymar. Did you expect him to be in it? Because I think, weirdly, I'm not sure I did. I think I've been taken by surprise that he's coming from the cold. Maybe I shouldn't be.

26:51James Horncastle:I was taken by surprise because, you know, Carlo Ancelotti hasn't picked him up until now. And, yeah, Neymar has not played for his country since October 2023. I think he's only played four times since the last World Cup. so even though I kind of back Carlo to be the one person who can make this work because he is very good I think one of his superpowers is his ability to create a group out of superstars and get everybody on the same page I think that's what made him such a great Real Madrid coach that those personalities that we've seen clash this year under Xabi Alonso and Arbeloa didn't clash under Carlo Ancelotti.

27:44But on the one hand, I feel really bad for João Pedro,

27:48James Horncastle:who Chelsea named player of the year 15 minutes or so after it was announced that he would not be going to. But it just goes to show that the pressure that was placed on Carlo Ancelotti to make this call, from all of the reporting, seems to have been huge. Legends who have won World Cups for Brazil telling him to do it. Senior players in his squad telling him to do it. And, you know, I mean, Carlo Ancelotti is used to working for some very high-powered individuals, you know, be it Silvio Berlusconi, be it Roman Abramovich. But the Brazilian public might be the most demanding of all. And so, yeah, let's see how he copes with this.

28:45Because I think the one thing you could say about Brazil is, OK, you know, maybe they don't have a young up and coming player now, particularly with what happened to Esteval, that you

29:00James Horncastle:could look to and say that kid is going to be the best player in the world in the way that Ronaldinho looked like that player or Ronaldo looked like that player. But if you look at the recent conversations we've had about who's going to win the Ballon d 'Or, well, Real Madrid decided not to go to the Ballon d 'Or ceremony when Vinicius Junior didn't win it a couple of years ago. And Rafinha was in the Ballon d 'Or conversation as recently as this time last year. So it doesn't necessarily feel like they needed or Co Ancelotti needed to do this. Jules, I wonder if I could sort of throw your question back at you that you asked Raf about Neuer around Neymar.

29:42Could he become a problem?

29:44Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think so. I think it's a very delicate balance that you'll have to find. And Carlo, as Horny just said, is very good at that. But what I find fascinating is even if Carlo is very good at it, before confirming to Neymar on the phone, they had a long phone call to say that he was part of the squad and go to the World Cup. He had very clear rules to set and said to Neymar, listen, this is how it's going to happen. This is what's going to happen. If you don't want to be part of this, no problem. You say, no, I don't call you up later that day. It was on Monday night when he announced it. But you won't start.

30:22Julien Laurens:So that's pretty clear. So Neymar is aware that his position right now is not of a starter in this team, but more as an impact sub at some point. and I'm not sure he's got the fitness anyway to play 90 minutes in a World Cup in that heat at that time, let alone further down the tournament, that not too much social media. What we expect from you is that kind of experience, older brother, big brother kind of approach to, let's say, like a Ryan or those kind of young players. We mentioned Estevão earlier. And so it's a very different role for Neymar than the last World Cup, where he was the captain and the key of the World Cup before.

31:00Julien Laurens:and he was so desperate to go that I guess he's satisfied by that role. But what happens if two weeks in, he's thinking like, I don't just want to bring the water to the guys and do a bit of few drills of training and that's it. I want to play more. I wonder if inevitably for somebody like him, who used to be one of the best in the world and now he's really, let's be honest here, the shadow of himself because I'm not even sure that outside of that pressure that James nicely summed up, I don't really think he deserves to be there on the recent performances that he had and his behavior and attitude on and off the field.

31:37Julien Laurens:You know, he had this incident with Robinho Jr. He had a spot with a Santos fan with a lot of like, you know, swear words and this and that. So I think Carlo said, OK, everybody wants him there. I'll take him. I'll set the rules. But really, on a pure football basis, I'm not sure he deserves to be there. All name are that he is, really.

31:58James Horncastle:And also, Crossy, remember the circumstances in which Chelsea signed João Pedro last year? It was in that bizarre kind of window for the Club World Cup. And he came in and took over that Club World Cup. Where was that Club World Cup played? It was played in the heat of the summer in the US. And he made a fantastic impact as Chelsea went on to win that. That's why we all call Chelsea world champions every three days. so you know I'm not sure Neymar can deliver that and this is a player I mean we've just gone from talking about Manuel Neuer's sort of injury troubles this year this is a this is a player that it's hard to get on the pitch and just by dint of the way he plays he invites tackles that I I remember because Italy didn't qualify for the last World Cup, I did cover Brazil and Argentina for the Athletic.

32:58James Horncastle:And I remember his ankle got kicked so badly that he was a doubt, I think, from maybe the second group stage games up until that quarterfinal against Croatia. And if our listeners haven't seen it, go and Google what his ankle looked like. I mean, I find it incredible that four years later, he's going to play in a World Cup, given the state of his ankle, four years ago. Should people definitely Google that? Are you sure of that, James? Yeah, yeah. Do we need to put one of those asterisks on this or like a content warning? No, it's just a very swollen ankle. Okay, fine. We can do that. Can you walk us through, James, the Joao Pedro video?

33:48because I'm not necessarily a fan of the modern concept of the reveal video for major tournament squads. And if ever there was an advert for not doing it, then it's this.

34:00James Horncastle:Yeah. So it was a little bit like the NFL draft where you've got camera crews in all of the family's houses and they're doing a watch along. And there is a Jao Pedro watch along with his friends and family. and you just hear Carlo Ancelotti's voice in the background on the TV saying Vinicius Junior, Rafinha, Neymar Junior and it's then when it sinks in that João Pedro's name isn't going to be called and you just see people getting up from the table, walking around, a few choice words being said, but devastating. And again, we've all seen that, that video has gone around the world. So, yeah, it's...

34:55James Horncastle:And I think Neymar was obviously one of João Pedro's idols as well. So kind of bittersweet. I'm sure he would have loved to have played with him at a major tournament and instead Neymar's taken his place. I feel like just give him a ring beforehand. Just be like, listen, I know you're planning to do like a live... Maybe don't.

35:14Julien Laurens:Don't publish it. Don't put it anywhere. Once it's done, yeah, don't just, don't put it out. And also, it's alphabetical order often. And I don't know why they, no, I know why they all do it. All the national team head coaches pretty much do it. But when you're a player and you just wait, you know at some point the letters are getting closer to your name. And if your name is not mentioned, there's no second chance. You know, if he was not in order, you would go, okay, maybe I'm the last one of the forward names. And there's still a bit of hope. But if you draw Pedro and you were not called either at the J or at the P.

35:47Julien Laurens:And then after that, he's gone beyond. You know, this is just not for you. I prefer a... Quick question. I mean, isn't Carlo Ancelotti the sort of manager that we think would tell his player? Well, that's exactly the point, yeah. I'm surprised. And let him down gently. What about Tucho, do you mean? No, I mean, you know, he might still need Jao Pedro in three months' time. surely he must have sold it to him, explained it to him properly and so on.

36:16James Horncastle:I mean, perhaps he did and João Pedro didn't tell his friends and family. I don't know, we don't know. I like a more low-key one. I was at the Iceland squad announcement for the Euros in 2016 and Lars Lagerbeck did what I would describe as a GCSE-level PowerPoint to announce the squad. and they went all the way through to the end and the last name was Eidegger Johnson and it was sort of met with a sort of almost like a roar from the Icelandic journalists. So I think low-key is better. That's the way to go. We're going to talk about Esfau Elfersberg now, aside from a town of just 13 ,000 people.

36:5613 ,000? Goodness. They've been promoted to the Bundesliga, first time in their history. They just finished second in the Zwei Bundesliga. They've got one step further than they did last season when they lost the promotion relegation playoff to Heidenheim. Lars Jerkel is from the Elf Friends Blesen fan group and has joined us on the EuroLeagues Live. Lars, good evening. Good evening. Congratulations on your promotion. Just tell us what it means to you to have Elfsberg in the Bundesliga. It's unbelievable. You know, it's such a small town playing in Forst League some years ago, crawling rapidly, and it's really something you need to believe in some month, maybe, if really Bundesliga is played in Elversburg.

37:41What is the secret to this then? And we'll talk a bit about money that goes in and all that kind of thing. That's always part of the story. But what is the kind of special thing about this club and this town that's allowed it to achieve this? I think it's a complete package. It's a clear plan. It's continuity. It's an incredible team spirit. So I think it's really unbelievable as, for example, Eversberg lost so many good players last year and everyone was expecting to play maybe at the end of the table and now at the end we make a promotion, which is quite unbelievable. And I think it's only possible due to real good structures, really good work of management and team and really good team spirit.

38:29Tell us about the manager then. Yeah, the manager was Nils Olobog. So he was the architect of everything. He built up the whole structure, took players no one knew before, making them to really, really good players. So, for example, we have Mohamed Damar, Mazzan Aslani or Abdul Nalib. We all lost them to Bundesliga clubs. And nevertheless, they all did the same as before. Everyone worked for a team. And also the head coach Horst Steffen left to Bremen at the beginning of the season. and nevertheless said also San Nils-Oleboek himself went to Dortmund some month ago. The team was still fighting, still bringing the best on the field and I think at the end it's well deserved to get promoted to the first league.

39:30Julien Laurens:Do you expect now maybe to keep your best players and more importantly how do you see next season? Is it a case of it would be a miracle to stay up? Do you think that maybe the team can actually manage to have a second season in the Bundesliga and try to establish itself in the top flight, which is obviously very difficult? And do you feel like there's almost, it's a dream, so there's no pressure. You're going to enjoy playing Bayern even if you lose 5-0 or Dortmund or you want a bit of that pressure and going for it? I think every game in Bundesliga is an add-on for everyone, for the spectators, the fans, the team, and it's like a cup game.

40:11I compare it like a cup game. So we are the small ones. They are the big ones. But this is part of the story of football. This is why we love this sport, because it's possible to compete against Borussia Dortmund or Bayern Munich. And imagine, for example, the changing rooms in Eversberg are all shipping containers, to be honest. This is it. This is what we want. Yeah, and we are just building the stadium. We just have, at the moment, 10 ,000 spectators. After the rebuilding now in one year, it's 15 ,000. But this is something Borussia Dortmund or Bayern München have to handle because you know Westfalenstadion or you know the Allianz Arena and it's a change.

40:58And this is our chance, in my opinion, to fight against them, to show them how hard football can be and to play with the possibilities we have as a small club. I feel like that begs the question then, Lars. Aside from the shipping containers, what aspect of travelling to Elfsberg, as in the stadium, at the moment is going to be the most alien and difficult for teams like Bayern Munich? The first part of being difficult is that we don't have the train station but we have an exit on the highway that's that's a big advantage but to be honest everyone is always laughing about how we do it and I'm really going to football stadiums since 30 40 years and it's quite quite fantastic handled so we've park and ride we have buses so you don't have so many spectators that it's going really, really easy to the stadium and back.

42:05So sometimes if I go on an away game in a big stadium, for example, two weeks ago in Dusseldorf, we had nearly one hour, one and a half hour to leave the parking spot. And this time from Elversburg, I'm at home and sit in my kitchen with my kids, for example. Raph, this sounds like an amazing fairy tale. Please don't spoil it.

42:30I mean, we wouldn't be Germans if we'd find something that we don't like about a small team getting promotion. There is a sort of a purist, snobbish attitude towards small clubs because there is, you know, amongst the traditionalists, a sense that they shouldn't really be in the Bundesliga that we should have, you know, the proper clubs like Kaiserslautern and Hertha. And there's sort of a danger that the Bundesliga is becoming too small. We had Heidenheim there. Now we have Elvesberg. Not Elvesberg. They're not elves, Crossy. I'm trying here, man. I think you're channeling Lord of the Rings. Elvesberg.

43:12Literally kind of the difference, but go on. And because we don't have a history of smaller clubs sort of going through the leagues with the help of a local businessman who pumps money into it um and the few times it happened it happened very inorganically there is almost a sense that this is not a fairytale but actually just kind of modern football the way we don't like it you know like a guy just giving money and through the money they're going up but we have to explain something especially in the British context. I mean, the money that's been invested by Frank Holzer, who's the senior person there, a former football player who has been supporting the club for three decades, is minuscule in comparison to what we're thinking about when we think of Hoffenheim or Leipzig or any British equivalent.

44:05I mean, I looked at their numbers. In the last five years, which covered their ascent from the fourth league all the way to Bundesliga, they have spent 4.7 million euros on transfers. 4.7 million euros. And in net terms, they've spent minus seven. So they've made more money than they spent in those five years. So this is still, I think, a fairy tale, but maybe for Germans, the inventors of modern fairy tales, not quite as romantic enough. Lars, what are you most looking forward to about seeing your team in the Bundesliga then? I'm really looking forward to be honest to each single game because like I mentioned it's net on and I think it's really fantastic what our trainer Vincent Wagner said on the press conference as we were promoted he said luckily in the season 27-28 we are in second league so next year we save the second league and that's really really the true and that's the mindset in Elvasberg and that's what us brings forward that's what us brought to the point we are now because if you told someone three years ago where we are now it would be crazy they once say it's unbelievable and it's unbelievable Lars thank you so much for joining us I'm sure we'll speak again when you sort of demolish Raph's Bayern Munich 5-0.

45:40And they have a lock-in in the shipping container. I look forward to that. Thanks, Lars. Great stuff. That's Lars Jerkel from the Elf Friends Blesen Fans Group. Raph, what's the perfect German football club then? Because you don't like these little stories. You don't like the clubs with the big money. Like, what do you want? I mean, it's a really good question. you know even Bayern Munich fans have had a banner for 20 years saying we are against modern football brilliant so I don't know I think it's it's it's an adherence to some bygone golden era that of course never really never really existed but it's interesting cross seekers I mean they

46:23James Horncastle:have this debate in in Italy as well there are lots of Italian raffas raffaelles who are making the same point that when a Benevento gets promoted or a Frozionna gets promoted instead of a Sampdoria, for example, you have people like Napoli's owner, Arellia De Laurentiis, sort of pulling his hair out saying, for the overall TV product, if we are to get sort of international audiences in, they don't want that romantic plucky little story. They want to see the bigger clubs, as many big clubs as possible in the competition, which makes it all the more enjoyable when one of those teams knocks Napoli out of the Coppa Italia, which is what happened last year.

47:13Well, this is a perfect link because we're going to finish with the Champions League race in Serie A ahead of the final day. Two points separate third from sixth. Obviously, it's third and fourth that get in in Italy this season. So Milan are third on 70. Roma also have 70. Como 68. Juventus 68. And even though Milan are in the best position, they also have the worst goal difference. Is it head-to-head first in Serie A though, James? It is, isn't it? Yes, I thought so.

47:41James Horncastle:Bizarrely, it is crossy, yes. So, I mean, actually, the first question I'll ask you then, because it links into what we're talking about, is Como. So how are Como being viewed within that context? Are they a plucky anything? Are they not? Would your average neutral Italian football fan think, oh, great if they get in the Champions League or not? People think they're a great story in Italy because of what they stand for. They've got a young coach in Cesc Fabregas, who we've spoken about many times on this show, whose ideas are seen as very modern, vanguard and should be followed by other people in the league rather than playing sort of retrograde, 3-5-2, low block, boring football.

48:27James Horncastle:So in that sense, Como are being championed. They are not like the team that has just come up into the Bundesliga because they have spent considerably more than the 4 million. Rafa mentioned, they have had the highest net spend the last couple of years since they got back into the top flight. But they've spent that well. Cesc has implemented it very well. And their game this weekend against Cremonese, I mean, they could relegate Jamie Vardy's Cremonese. And then they've got to hope that results go their way elsewhere. Because, you know, whilst Roma have never been in the Champions League under the Friedkin group, the Friedkin group who also own Everton, and they've spent an awful lot of money on Roma, the big focus over the last week or 10 days has really been on Milan and Juventus you know who wants the crisis club that and more and that has been Milan last week Crossy because it was very much there was a big protest they wanted the chief executive of Milan out they wanted the sporting director out as well but then Milan beat Genoa at the weekend and the big surprise was that Juventus lost at home to Fiorentina.

49:48James Horncastle:Fiorentina who've been in relegation trouble for most of this season but are now safe didn't really have anything to play for they rock up a couple of ex-Juventus players scored and now this has thrown Juventus's entire structure into to doubt, which is their chief executive, Damien Comoli, or Damien Comoli, as people in the UK know him. And the structure that he spent the last year putting in place, which has been a new sporting director, new technical director, and the coach, Luciano Spalletti, who they took the option to extend his contract a couple of weeks ago. But now it feels like everything is thrown into doubt because Juventus might not qualify for the Champions League for the first time in 15 years.

50:32Julien Laurens:And who would lose the most? Who would lose the most? Great question, Jules. Perfect question. You know, where is the crisis at? If Milan don't make it to the Champions League, is that really bad? What about Juve? If Roma don't make it when they are in that position, is it okay because it's Gasparini's first season, for example, and things like that? Or who has the most to lose?

50:53James Horncastle:So you're absolutely right, Jules, in what you're alluding to with Roma and Gasparini in that I think the ownership there, whilst they have been gasping to qualify for Champions League over the last seven or eight years. Because all the money you think that they spent on Jose Mourinho and then on hiring Jose Mourinho, all the money they spent on Daniel De Rossi, they need it. But it's almost normalized not being in the Champions League. So they would be ahead of schedule under Gasparini if they got there. Milan have shown, by failing to qualify last year, that they can still navigate the transfer market in such a way that they can, I wouldn't say be non-top-four proof, but they've shown that they can find a way to balance the books without it.

51:38James Horncastle:Juventus is the one that they have a shareholder who keeps plunging lots of money in, you know, the Agnelli family. But after, what, six years now since they won their last title, and remember Juventus won the league nine years in a row, for them to miss out on the Champions League and have to press the reset button again, I think that would be inconvenient, to say the least, for their owner, John Elkamp. I have to say congratulations to you, James, because whilst the rest of us have been beautifully lit throughout this show, it's just got darker and darker behind you. Now you effectively look like a deleted scene from the Blair Witch Project at this point, but you've done well with it.

52:27What a great Euroleagues, everybody. Big thank you to Rafa Honigstein, The Athletics' James Horncastle and ESPN's Julien Leron. The final Euroleagues of this club football season is next Thursday and it will be live from Budapest ahead of the Champions League final, which is, of course, live on 5 Live on Saturday, Arsenal versus Paris Saint-Germain. So we'll be here on 5 Live from 7pm with that and that'll be the next edition of the Euroleagues. Next up on the Football Daily will be the commentator's view.

53:035 Live Sports BBC Women's Football Weekly The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game Dame Serena Vigman Welcome to the moment Are we including Dame in your title now? You know how much an honour that is And this remarkable team And this remarkable women They want to play in a way that they can show their skills so that's what we're trying to do Win the World Cup. It's a dream. Listen. With the BBC Sounds app.