Euro Leagues: UCL Semis set & Ashley Cole on coaching

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0:30Make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favourite podcast app. On the Football Daily Podcast, the EuroLeagues. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to the EuroLeagues on the Football Daily Podcast. So much to get into this week. We'll be dissecting Wednesday's seven-goal thriller where Bayern knocked out Real Madrid to set up a semi against PSG. We'll chat Atleti and Simeone too as well after they've knocked out Barcelona. They'll take on Arsenal in their semi-final. Then we're going to hear all about Marie-Louise Etter, appointed this week as the interim head coach at Union Berlin, making her the first ever woman to manage a men's side in Europe's top five leagues.

1:17And we're going to hear from Ashley Cole, who's been speaking to BBC Sport about his new role as head coach of Cesena in Serie B. All of that on the way in the company of Julian Laurence, Guillaume Balaguet and Rafa Honigstein. Hello, guys. Thanks for having me. And no, I haven't got an initiation song prepared. Oh, come on.

1:37Julien Laurens:What would be your karaoke song when you go out for karaoke? What's your main song? Let me just give you a reference. I sang, if I remember correctly, a Bad Bunny song. I think it was an aria from Raffi, Puccini aria. I think Julian sang La Molla Plage by Niagara. So, you know, you could pick. Oh, my goodness. Let me have a think, all right? Don't let me leave this podcast. No pressure. Don't let me leave this podcast without doing something. Let's talk all things football then. We've got to start with that incredible game last night. We'll come on to Arbolowa and Real Madrid in more depth in just a moment.

2:17But we'll start with Bayern. They look a real force, don't they, at the moment. a stellar performance from Bayern's attacking players particularly. Philipp Lahm wrote in his Athletic column just before the match, someone like Manuel Neuer doesn't come along every day. He ranks among the very greatest in football history alongside Lionel Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. Now, Rafa, you were there last night. That doesn't quite ring true with the fast start, does it? I mean, it wasn't his greatest game, I think it's fair to say. and it was so interesting to see because it really had an effect on the team.

2:54I mean, they came back quickly, but throughout the first half, even as late as I would say the 60th or 70th minute, they were a little bit more reluctant than usual to involve Neuer in the build-up. And that was because that bit of insecurity, that bit of sort of second guessing had crept into the game. And that was really hard for the defenders to deal with because usually, yes, he makes the odd mistake, but not after 33 seconds against Real Madrid in the quarter-final at home. So it took the team a little bit to understand this new reality, at least for this particular game. And it made Bayern's build-up a little bit more difficult when Real Madrid did press.

3:34They didn't press very often. When they did, it looked really dangerous because of those issues. But of course, in the end, that game will not be remembered for Manil Neuer's mistakes will be remembered for the seven goals, for the kind of seesaw Titanic battle that we had. And of course, the red card and so on. But just in terms of pure drama and excitement, at a place that doesn't always get so excited about football because they're kind of used to winning. It's up there, I think, with the five biggest games in Bayern history, at least at the Allianz Arena in the last 20 years or so since it was built.

4:13a night that will be remembered forever because it was Real Madrid, because of the way he went and because of that fantastic final sentence to that story provided by Michael Olisse. I mean, to finish off a game in a tie, what better motion, what better attacking move can you do? And there's a lovely commentary on German television that said, Michael Olisse, he's picked up the ball. He doesn't want to go to the corner flag. He wants to go for goal. And that was just amazing. Brilliant. Because usually you wouldn't really see that kind of action in the last 10 seconds or so because the smarter play, if you will, would be just to wind down the clock.

4:54Let me take you a step back and talk about the spectacle because in the last week I've been immersed in the Bayern Munich world thanks to Raphael Honesteyn who first, after the game at the Santiago Bernabeu, invited me to that amazing thing that happens in a central hotel when Bayern play away and sponsors are invited, VIP are invited, fans, and they mix with the players. Literally, they mix. The players walk around the tables and you're supposed to, what is it? Everything is on the record until the CEO makes the speech. And after that, off the record, whatever happens there stays there. So that was the first one.

5:31And then, of course, I've been talking for different reasons with people that Rafi introduced me to. And I went to the game yesterday as a fan. and throw away the computers, the phones. And I sensed, first of all, such an awe, and I would say even admiration, certainly respect from Bayern Munich fans towards Real Madrid. You even got Ole Gunnar saying that Real Madrid is bigger than Bayern Munich, which is something big to say. But yes, the atmosphere was brilliant from minute one until the end. It was noisy, people stood up. so this is the most comfortable business area where they put you sofas they don't put you like chairs the food was incredible it's a comfortable stadium to go to you can walk through the corridors but unlike say the NBA nobody's in the corridors while the game is on everybody's focused on what's happening and the emotions run very very high on my right and left and front and and back.

6:30And of course, you could follow the goal and that amazing TIFO with somebody holding a ball. And what was the saying? It's in our hands. It's in our hands. It was just as a spectacle. Incredible place to do it with. Surrounded by people that didn't hate the rivals, didn't insult them, just worrying. And of course, when that first goal comes in, it's like a big you know, taking a big breath. And after that, everybody went on a roll of emotions. It was just fantastic. The game had absolutely everything. But you have to give the fans the ability to just make the whole thing even better. Jules, what did you make of it?

7:14Because you would have known that the opponents of PSG were coming from that particular match. And I bet you couldn't believe how ding-dong it was, backwards and forwards that particular match last night?

7:31Julien Laurens:Yeah, especially the first half. I mean, we saw in the first leg and there was no reason why the second leg would have been different anyway because he was still very much in the balance even if Bayern were favourite. I think the red card obviously changes it all. I think Real Madrid did a lot of really good things in there. I think maybe Bayern were not as intense and not as spectacular maybe as what they did, especially in the first half at the Bernabeu last week. But overall, it was two great teams with slightly different styles, just going at each other all the time. The second half was a bit more controlled and it had to be anyway.

8:05Julien Laurens:But that front three of Bayern is just so, so good, right? Even when Luiz Diaz doesn't have the best of his games, even though Lisset, to some extent, I thought Ferland Mendy defended quite well on him, to be fair, but then still your front three score a goal each and then they are a level this season in terms of goals in the season, performances overall, but also in pressing and counter pressing where they don't have the ball to such an exceptional level. I don't mean to ask you to put a negative spin on things here, Rafa, because when they have a performance like that last night and they've made it into the last four of the Champions League, it seems a strange question for me to ask here.

8:38But do they have any weaknesses? Well, first of all, I think, just to pick on something that Julian said, Joshua Kimmich agreed, he said it wasn't our best game. We had to kind of go through our struggles. And then Kompany talked to them at half-time and said, stay calm, just keep the ball, switch it around a bit better and the chances will come. And that's exactly what happened. Real Madrid defended the last 20 minutes. They were so deep. And Bayern just needed a bit of patience. And of course, having the extra man helped as well. But you felt that the longer the game was going on, Bayern had more and more control.

9:14They have weaknesses, of course, because the system is very high risk. They try to press high. Then they try to win back the ball in counter-pressing. and if you play through them, and if you have players like Real Madrid, not many teams have up front, they are to a point, you cannot defend them in those spaces. You might defend them if you play six in the back in a row and condense the space. But if you leave spaces for these players, it's almost inevitable that they will create chances. But that is the price you pay for the dominance. The dominance cannot exist without you being very far away from your own goal.

9:50otherwise you cannot dominate in the opposition half so you take that risk and so far I would say if you compare it to last season when Inter knocked them out at the same stage I think Bayern have it didn't look always like that last night but I think on the whole in the whole season they have more control and they've been able to have a bit more balance and it's not as open as it used to be last year when they played man v man marking the whole time Now I think there's more balance. But of course, if you have players like Mbappe or Vinnie Jr. and PSG have similar profile players up front, they're going to create problems.

10:30But I think what saves Bayern and what makes them superior to many sides is the structure. They can rely on the structure. You know, they don't have an Mbappe. I don't think anyone has an Mbappe. I think he is the best player in the world right now. And it doesn't matter to me if he wins the World Cup or not, if he doesn't win the Champions League. I think in terms of pure talent as a footballer, I don't see anyone else in the world right now that reaches him. PSG are very similar, though, in their qualities, but Bayern is more about the collective. Of course, they have Ulisse, of course, Luis Diaz is a great player, Kane is a great player, but they don't rely on these players to be individualist.

11:09They try to build a platform for chances to almost be created methodically and logically, and that's how they suffocate most teams. The dominance can be confusing when you just look at it as a neutral and don't go into detail on the game. I think most people would agree that Bayern Munich does have to go through. But I can tell you that having been at both games, there were not that much difference with both sides and you can put a very clear argument that Real Madrid should have gone through from the moment that you think that Neuer was MVP on the first leg, for instance, and looking just at the second, the fact that Ramadi defended deep and even deeper, especially after Kamaminga got sent off, doesn't mean that they didn't create chances.

11:57They had one bigger chance, more bigger chance than Bayern, two and three. The expected goals were, Ramadi were ahead as well. And he could have just gone if he wasn't for Neuer that save to Mbappé. It could have been that Ramadi goes through. And then at some point, we can talk about the Kamavinga sending off, which doesn't define the tie and certainly is not the reason for Ramadi to be knocked out. But two of the goals, the big goals, came after he got sent off. And I will just say one thing. Referee didn't know Kamavinga had one yellow. If he did, he wouldn't have given him a second yellow.

12:34UEFA don't like players being sent off just for that thing of carrying the ball away for a few metres when he wasn't really stopping a counter-attack or anything, just slowing things down a little bit. And in fact, when he gives him the yellow, the second yellow, he turns around and it's just Bayern Munich players that remind him that he had won already. So that's, oh yeah, okay, right, that's a red. Spoil things a little bit. But I felt, and Michael Ulisse said that after the game, that Bayern already were on the app and perhaps would have taken the game, maybe at extra time. He would have given us half an hour more.

13:08but there the referee I think he made a big mistake Let's talk Real then they're looking at potentially finishing trophy-less this season aren't they Guillaume something that they've not done much at all just the fifth time this century if that is the case out of the Champions League and the domestic cups and now nine points behind Barcelona and La Liga is it hard Guillaume to imagine Abelhoa actually surviving this because I can't think of many Real Madrid managers who would get that pass. Let's start with the president of Real Madrid going to the changing rooms after the games and saying to wear the shirt of Real Madrid is a privilege, but it's also a responsibility.

13:51And many of you have not given us that responsibility. You haven't been at the level that you should be. This is a story that has just come out by Fermín de la Calle, who is a very well-respected journalist based in Madrid. and close to Real Madrid, which tells you everything you need to know. If the president thinks that way, it doesn't matter that actually some fans would keep Arbeloa on. Big decisions have to be taken. Who replaces Arbeloa, we will see. He's got another year left in his contract. I took a picture of him in the bus, on his own, looking into the horizon, just thinking like that was the chance, that was the moment.

14:34I go into the semifinals, perhaps a stay. Maybe that's what he had in his head. But certainly it's hard to think of him to continue. One name that has been put into the question in the last few weeks, and that's where Jules has to give us more, we heard about Klopp, and it is somebody that certainly Florentino Perez would like to have at Real Madrid. We heard about Pochettino, but the Shams is one that has been mentioned recently. So what do we say, Jules?

15:02Julien Laurens:Yeah, we said that he's obviously right now focusing on the World Cup his last competition with France but then after that he's eager to go straight into club management again I mean he's not ruling out another national team although it's a bit difficult you know for the language buyer if it's a language that he doesn't speak but he speaks English not so much but Italian and Spanish because obviously he played in those two countries he played in England as well but for a short time so I think you know I think obviously if Real Madrid come knocking, he'd be super interested, I'm sure. I think he's a great man-manager, for sure.

15:40Julien Laurens:Is he a bit too conservative for Real Madrid? Maybe, but in a way, I think he can also be very pragmatic and that might suit this squad, maybe. So I think this is a very, very interesting one. The only thing is... Not sure what Bini would think of that, though. Yeah, I know, I know. I mean, Kylian would be very happy, obviously. So would be Chouamini. Fernand Mendy, maybe not so much as well. The only thing is if France, let's say, go really far in the World Cup, semi-final, final, you know, whatever, he won't be available before late July, really, which maybe in terms of pre-season and everything, I'm sure they can find a way, but it's maybe not ideal that he would not report on the first day of pre-season back.

16:22That's what I was going to ask you, actually, because we talk about these managers who are getting a good reputation during the World Cup or Euros or any major tournament during the summer, but they are instantly at a disadvantage, aren't they? And that's going to be the case for Didier Dishon.

16:38Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think that's the thing. But then again, he could have one of his trusted guys coming over and getting the team to start the pre-season, the fitness work, the running and things like that. There might be a way to do it. And also France might be out earlier than I'm hoping or they're hoping and then this might be a slightly different dynamic. I don't know. but I think certainly in terms of tactics but again he's in his own style I'm not saying this is Real Madrid's that would suit Real Madrid's style and expectations from the fans and from the club etc but he's a wonderful coach there's just no doubt it's just his football is not really our cup of tea here we discussed it a lot especially during big tournaments especially at the last Euros but he's still very very good and highly rated for sure I would love to see Didier Deschamps at Real Madrid and one month into the tenure both the fans and Florentino Paris saying, this is not Real Madrid.

17:34But it would be a better version of what we saw yesterday, maybe. The champs can do that. I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But I want to pick you up something that you said, Guillaume. Could it be that Florentino Paris' words could be interpreted not so much about the quality, but about the behaviour of this Real Madrid team? Because that was the reaction in Germany as much as there is respect and admiration and expectation of this team to be superb, there was a real sense of disappointment and maybe even Schadenfreude about the reactions after the game and how petulant they were. And I think there was a suggestion that I saw that Frontino Paris was unhappy about that sort of behaviour rather than the footballing performance.

18:23He creates that behaviour. You heard Jude Bellingham and Rudiger and others throwing lines like, this is amazing, this was a shame, embarrassing, against the referee. This game should not produce that reaction unless you've been told for years now, and that comes from the top, that comes from Florentino Perez, that referees are not helping us. Not just that, they are against us. so with that atmosphere it's relatively easy for players especially after the game to look for people to blame and not looking at themselves and looking at the referees so no I think he was actually talking about the fact as James said earlier that for 16 years it's the first time in 16 years that they don't have any chance at the league they won't win the league the cup or the Champions League in two consecutive years That hadn't happened for 16 years.

19:22So that's big. One year is crisis. Two years is a disaster. So I think he was trying to say this. You haven't been at the level that we expect of you. Because they picked and choose the games. You know, they drew against Girona, lose against Osasuna and Getafe. And then they go and beat Manchester City. What's that about? Well, it's a culture that is not the right one. And Arbelo didn't have time to change it. Xavi Alonso tried, but was decapitated from the top either. So it's not an easy solution unless you have a personality like a seducer like Pochettino or a strong man like the Shams. What about the wider footballing applications?

20:00I mean, you said they could have won, they could have gone through. I guess that's true. But I think if you leave yourself to be dominated through 180 minutes possession, it's more tiring. And you cannot always rely on Mbappe and Vinny and to an extent Bellingham to save you. Don't they need to go back to a slightly more controlled, dominant style with a midfield? Also with fullbacks, I thought the fullbacks were very poor throughout the tie. I think you need fullbacks that go forward, that create at this level. Real Madrid don't have that at the moment. Doesn't this need a bigger rethink rather than just changing the manager?

20:42And is the structure you were talking about, whatever kind of a structure, one that helps the players when the players are not at the best. But six Champions League in 12 years. Yeah, but is this still the same team that won those Champions Leagues? And can you see this team winning six Champions Leagues in the next 12 years? But it's the same essence, isn't it? The best players around put together. But I don't see this midfield and see that these are the best midfielders in the world. there's no cross, there's no Carl Zemiro, there's no Modric in this team that's my issue, I think the imbalance is really huge, you have three players up front who are absolutely sensational and I would say the rest is good but I think in that middle there's quality missing You're not convinced here Rafa are you?

21:35You're really not convinced Real Madrid have set such absurd high standards that I think a lesser version of Madrid in comparison is a bit underwhelming. And I feel that they haven't been as impressive over the last couple of years. And that's why they've been knocked out early. So if not Didier Deschamps, who is going to be my next obvious question? As I said, they're trying to convince, it's not the word, but they put out there, club will be interesting. But of course, he doesn't speak Spanish. Pochettino is the one that he's waiting for as well. He is waiting, Pochettino himself. But as per usual, what is the profile?

22:19So having lost the battle, if you like, Florentino Perez to choose the previous manager and Xavi Alonso, that was Jose Angel Sanchez, the number two at the club, where Rinaldo again comes out and says the same words as Rafi just said. How about a structure? How about doing it together? How about a collective answers? Blah, blah, blah. And then Rafa Benitez comes or Julian Lopetegui comes or Xavi Alonso comes. Now he's lost his credibility after the disaster of Xavi Alonso. So I'm not sure that Florentino Perez will go for that profile. But there are so many things to correct, as Rafi says and Jules as well.

22:51I'll add one more before we move on. The link between, on the pitch, between Vinny and Mbappé, that's never worked. It's water and oil. They just cannot work together. Not sure how you saw that.

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23:49Let's turn our attention to the other side of the draw then, if you like. So Arsenal beat Sporting 1-0 across two legs to progress to a second semi-final. In two years, they'll take on Diego Simeone's Atletico Madrid after they knocked out Barcelona on Tuesday. Barca had a player sent off in both legs. Rafinha called the match a robbery. The refereeing was really bad. That was post-match. How surprising then is Barca's exit? But also, I'm a bit torn here, gents, because it's great to see Diego Simeone putting himself back in that business end of the Champions League. We'll come on to Atletico in a second, but I can't help feeling, Guillaume, that actually it's a big opportunity missed for Barca because they've been playing so well under Hansi Flick, haven't they?

24:36Yes, with the same problems that they showed last season and not really sorted. I've seen somewhere that Barcelona in the last 10 years is the team that has got more players than tough in the Champions League, in the knockout stages of the Champions League. It was easy to see that that could happen and it happened in both legs, of course, I think, out of the, what would it be, 190 minutes played, 70 with 10 men only. it's the decision that Hansi Flick has decided to manage a club he wants risk first of all he thinks the rewards are huge and I don't blame either the sending off, the bad defending or the high line for Barcelona missing that opportunity that you're talking about, by the way is the youngest side ever in the quarterfinals of the Champions League, 24.4 years, so they will be there for a few years I think still, especially if La Mane continues like this.

25:33I blame the club. Every year they're taking value out of that squad. Every year I've got the bench, which is worse. A couple of injuries didn't help. The young, Gabi's recovering. Rafinha especially, after what he'd done last season. But having done so well in the first half, where they run the socks off, and they scared Atletico Madrid in their own ground. In the second half, they collapsed. They just didn't have the energy. They didn't have solutions. And this is perhaps the biggest mistake of the whole tie to bring on Lewandowski and Rashford. OK, Fermin had to come off after his injury, but Ferran Torres was doing really well and them two just didn't add anything at all.