Euro Leagues: Vinicius' brilliance overshadowed by racism allegations

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0:44Welcome to the EuroLeagues. Joining us this week, the Athletics' James Horncastle, ESPN's Julian Laurent and Mina Rizuki. So plenty for us to get into, but we will start with what happened with Vinicius Jr. Reporting racist abuse from Gianluca Prestiani. Prestiani has denied that, saying, I want to clarify that at no time did I direct racist insults to Vinicius Jr., who regrettably misunderstood what he thought he heard. I was never racist with anyone and I regret the threats I received from Real Madrid players. Benfica themselves have since come out and said, Given the distance between players on the pitch, the Real Madrid players could not have heard what they claimed to have heard.

1:29Prestiani's conduct in the service of the club has always been guided by respect for opponents, institutions and the principles that define Benfica's identity. The club regrets the defamation campaign of which the player has been a victim. Vinicius himself said racists are above all cowards. they need to put their shirts in their mouths to show how weak they are but they have the protection of others who theoretically have an obligation to punish them Guillaume Balaguet was in the stadium and is with us for the next 10-15 minutes you've also written a big article as I mentioned earlier Guillaume on the BBC Sport website which you know you put this incident against this backdrop that as you say in your article during these eight years at Real Madrid This is the 20th time that Vinicius Jr.

2:20has claimed that he has been the subject of abuse. 20 times he feels he's been on the end of racist abuse. 20 times that have been reported, I'm pretty sure it's more than that. But when that has happened to you, I think the minimum you should receive from anybody in football, and that means anybody, including rivals, is a bit of empathy at least instead of being blamed for what happened. That was one of the very disappointing things that took place last night. But if you want to go into detail of the moment where the game was stopped, that will give you a little bit of clues of where everybody ended up, say, 24 hours later.

3:02because when the game stopped, Vinny went to the bench and in there he spoke to Mbappé. Mbappé said after the game that they had decided they didn't want to play anymore. Arbeloa, the manager of Real Madrid, went to Vinny, would do whatever you say. Mourinho at that point, and these are words from Mourinho, said that he met Vinny and told him that Renfica is not a racist club, that one of the most iconic players of Benfica, if not the most, is a black player, an Eusebio. And why did he have to celebrate that way? Now, he repeated that theme in three television channels and then a press conference later, linking the behaviour of Vinicius to the alleged racist abuse.

3:55Chouameni, in those eight minutes that football was stopped, heard from the Benfica players saying that Prestiani had not done a racist insult, but instead it was a homophobic one. And apparently that means a little bit less. So Arbeloa went back to Vini and said, what do you want to do? And this is why Vini, in his statement later on, insist on the idea that the protocol is wrong, because it was all down to him. It was all down to the victim. So, OK, he said, let's play. But I spoke to players of the record and they said they weren't in the game. The head was gone. Before the game finished, I went through a tunnel in the flash-down area and in there I started hearing noises at the end of the game.

4:43It was Mbappé first shouting, something I couldn't fully understand. Vinny came on after, also shouting, A la Madrid, a la Madrid. I'm sure he meant to say something else. And then the changing room of Real Madrid was kind of blocked by security. So a lot of people, about 40, 50 people, got together just at the end of the tunnel. And there were very, very aggression. I didn't see anything else from everybody. In the middle of it was Rui Costa, the chairman of Enfica, that at some point it seemed like he was separating people and on others that he was arguing himself. And then after that, it was the statements that we heard.

5:21the words from Joseph Mourinho. And I spoke to Arbeloa, who surprised me by saying that they hadn't prepared what to do in a circumstance like this, but it was always going to be whatever Vinny wanted to do. And also I heard from Trent, who seemed very, very affected. Vinny crossed the MIG zone, didn't talk to anybody, went into the bus, and Clarence Sidoff walked into the bus as well. This is a story that Gabi Logan told me earlier. Sat down with Vinny, saw him really, really affected. And Sidov said, listen, don't take it all on yourself. There's others here that we're fighting for you as well.

5:58But he seemed really, really emotional. And this is where we are, with Benfica trying to explain that there's a defamation campaign against the player, trying to explain that Real Madrid players possibly didn't hear what they said they did. Mbappé mentioned that he heard the insult five times. And now we just have to wait for the investigation of UEFA. they won't have it easy. Isn't it? Look, and there are claims and counterclaims. And as Guillaume says, for the factual side of it, we have to wait for that investigation. One of the things that struck me and one of the things that Guillaume said there, Mina, was how on earth can it be on the victim in all of this to decide how everything then progresses for the rest of the game?

6:47I do find that, you know, it's what you want to do, Vinny. Well, you know, it really shouldn't be. He's got enough. If he has heard what he thinks he's heard, he has got enough to deal with without then the pressure of whether we whether we continue or not being placed on the shoulders of the victim. Well, you see, this is a difficult one because it's a little bit of, does he feel, I mean, to a certain extent, I think that he should be able to decide whether he wants to play or not. I mean, unless the natural way to go to this is to suspend the match straight away and say, if we have zero tolerance, then we don't have the guidelines at all.

7:28And we stop straight away and say, this is how we do zero tolerance. You then end up not, especially if it's not from the fans. This isn't like the fans trying to do anything. This is actually a player on the pitch from the opponent's team who has subjected, allegedly, another player to racism. And so if this happens, then you just don't have those guidelines. You stop the match immediately and then you have an investigation. But this is where it gets tricky because this is where who is supposed to say these things? Who is supposed to say the match doesn't continue anymore? In the protocol, I think the first time he has to say the warnings and the game has to stop.

8:06As the protocol... That's the way it goes. Yes. Yeah, you've got three... It's in three steps, really. I know it's really... It feels wrong to say that you've got three steps if you've been racially abused, but that's the way it is for now, certainly written. It's a warning. Then it's the kind of last call. And after that, it's the referee himself. If he hears, because it might be from the fans, for example, the abuse continuing, then he can stop it. I think in this case, it was the first warning. we had the game stopped as it was supposed to be, like that in the protocol. But if by then the player and the team of the player is saying like, no, we don't want to continue, I think the referee can stop.

8:44But from the referee himself, it comes only later on if the abuse continues that then it's his call to decide if the game continues or not, which is probably wrong, to be honest. But in this case, if you're a text here, and you know I often joke when we're on the show together when it's a French referee, I've said nothing can go wrong with a French referee pretending that they're the best in the world, which they're not, by the way. But yesterday, because also Poshciani covers his mouth, by the way, and this whole investigation will be his words against Vini's words, against, I guess, the Real Madrid players who will say, like Mbappe, no, I heard it.

9:15I heard him saying monkey five times. And the Benfica players will say, no, we heard him and he didn't say that. It will be word against words. I'm not sure what UEFA can do. So shall we mic the players up? You know, the referees are mic'd up. at this stage to avoid these kind of situations you can mic players up quite easily because then you avoid this he said, she said. You see it in other sports. You see it, okay, in the NFL they've got mics in their helmets that sort of thing. But I think it's a further, not really intrusive step these days with technology to help establish what has happened.

10:01I agree with Chappas. I think in terms of it's a lot of responsibility to put on one player's shoulders, regardless of what the protocol is here, because you'll still go through phase one, phase two, phase three of the protocol, and there will be a constant dialogue with the player. And then if the player has to decide, it's a Champions League playoff game. In front of 60 ,000 people. Let me add a little bit of the noise on the situation here because we're thinking about it 24 hours later. 60 ,000 people who were booing and whistling Vinny and Mbappé and continue doing so for the rest of the game.

10:40There was a standing ovation when Pristiani was replaced. And at the moment where the referee stopped the game, there was, of course, not many people accepting that. on that ambience, you have to say, OK, yeah, I don't want to play or whatever it is, the decision you have to take. But there is a lot that football could do here, which, as you say, simplifying the procedures and the protocol, number one. Real Madrid could have prepared this a little bit better. I spoke to Arbelo and he was like, we would have done whatever Vinny wanted to do, but you should have known with your eyes closed by having spoken to him and Mbappé and whoever else and the rest of the captains, what had to happen at that point.

11:28Well, also, Guillaume, as you mentioned in your article, I can't remember the exact number, what, more than 20 reported instances. You would think that a club that has a player who has been abused that many times would have an established protocol in how to act should it happen again. And probably for things to move, for things to change, actually, maybe that's just the way. Maybe that's when the players say, I'm not continuing here. And then UEFA will have to say, OK, who's winning the game? Who's losing the game? And then because we've been here so many times on our show so many times, we've talked about with Vinny and with other players so sadly about, OK, they're in this position.

12:07And then this will happen and what will happen now? And we don't know. But then we all go back to the same. It's all going back to the same place. and then it happens again next month and next season. And nothing changes, really. And you know what? For things to change as well, by the way, we need to have people like Jose Mourinho stopping, trying to find excuses. I don't know what Presciani did or say or didn't do. I don't care. But for Mourinho to almost justify it already by saying, well, Vinny should not have celebrated like that. He celebrated like if it was Di Stefano or Eusebio or Perle for the goal he scored.

12:38Because you celebrate the goal that you've scored in the Champions League, then you're going to be racially abused after that by a player on the pitch or by the fans in the stand. This is ridiculous. And Mourinho is certainly not helping the cause of those players racially abused by coming up with things like that. Oh, easy. Oh, easy. Because I don't think we're going to go back to that step back of actually defending or attacking somebody because of the way he celebrated. It sounded like there was quite a unanimous reaction from everyone, media, commentators generally, about what Mourinho has done.

13:09And I don't think five years ago it would have been the same kind of unanimity. So even though, of course, if we could sort it out tomorrow, it would be ideal, it's a daily battle and it's going to go on forever against discrimination. I do believe steps are being given, for instance, from the beginning of Vinicius in La Liga. At the beginning, I don't think La Liga understood what he was fighting against or they didn't really get why he was so upset and they blamed him for what was going on. That's not happening. La Liga is at the forefront of battle against racism and discrimination. So today, yesterday, just to finish with that, the Spanish media changed the tune as well.

13:52And I want to see that in a Clásico. But it was unanimous, and six months ago that was not the case, saying this is wrong. This shouldn't happen. Let's see if more steps are given. But sometimes from crisis like this, we move on a little bit. Can I just ask you a couple of things, Guillaume, because you're going to have to then go and get ready for match of the day. So one of which is a lot more important than the other. So I'll do the more important one second. But as far as next week's game is concerned, because they meet again in six days, seven days, next Wednesday. Do you know if anything that's been put in place for that game?

14:36Well, there is an ethic and discipline committee of UEFA that is investigating the case. Normally that requires a month. So you cannot fit a month with the interviews that are going to take place with Vini, with Mbappé, with Camavinga, with obviously Prestiani. That's not going to happen in a week. So maybe Prestiani gets injured. I don't know. One of them. But he obviously won't be welcome at Real Madrid, at Santiago Bernabéu. but there is not much more that can be done. And then the second thing involves Vinicius Junior himself. And he's sort of become a sort of symbol against racism because of what he has called out over the past few years.

15:26Is he comfortable with that? Or does he just want to play football? We're so far from understanding what he's gone through since he was a kid in the favela and understood that the whole world was a hostile place. So far from understanding that. But he's decided to take matters in his own hands and fighting against all of it. Is he comfortable? I'm sure he would like to play football. At the same time, though, there's something, there's a flame in him saying that he's got to do that. It doesn't matter if it unsettles him. It doesn't matter if not everybody, perhaps even amongst his teammates, understand what's going on.

16:05He's going to continue and he's going to do it using the platform that he's got as one of the best players in the world. He's hearing so many times, please behave, mostly mentioned by white men. Please behave. And he's got no intention of doing that. I heard some time ago saying that the black man has to fight twice as hard to be accepted as a man. he's aware of that and he's willing to fight twice as hard until we all get it. It's a long fight and maybe others will join in, not necessarily just Black, because yesterday we were hearing Sidor from Michael Richards and Thierry Henry and I missed a lot of other people talking about this.

16:47But being optimistic as I am, that may have raised the conscience of many, many, many more and we start talking differently and behaving differently. Guillaume, thank you very much for this evening. Guillaume Balaguet with us. Piara Power, former director at Kick It Out, current chief executive director of the FAIR Network, joins us. Evening, Piara. Hi, Mark. On the one hand, nice to talk to you again, but on the other hand, not, if you see what I mean. And where do we go from here? What should happen now? Well, Mark, I think we know what will happen because we've been here quite a few times. Many times.

17:27Yeah. I think the situation here is slightly different because I can't recall a time for quite a while where it's been a player-on-player example of racism. They have been there, and I think we can name some of those incidents, but we haven't seen something like this for a long time. I think what will be happening now is that UEFA are taking in evidence the referee is a key individual their match delegate is a key individual we also had somebody at the match and have sent some observations through but the referee will be will be the the critical person here and he will be relating back what he was told when where who else approached him in terms of evidence because that's the critical thing we are all with Vinny I think we've seen the number of the number of times that Vinny has been abused in in football at the top level in the last few years but how do you evidence that that's the big question for UEFA and there there are some precedents as to how they do that but that's the question I think they'll be asking themselves how how can we legally make a case out of this there are protocols in place because as James has has pointed out we're very much in a well he said this and and he said that situation here and i suppose it also depends on who heard it because with the shirt over the mouth you've got you've got no evidence apart from who's heard what there's little other evidence isn't there yeah so what that the shirt over the mouth means that uefa can't get hold of cctv footage and then get a lip reader in we sometimes don't give enough space to victims and to hear their stories and then to give them credibility.

19:21Because, you know, you can be cynical about what happened here, or you can say, well, people don't create a fuss for nothing. People don't always want a drama in their lives. And that's the perspective, I think, that we take here, that if Vinny says he heard something, Clio Mbappe then comes out after the match and gives an interview to the whole of the Spanish media, and is very clear about what he heard and is clear about how he's supporting Vinnie Jr., then I think we have to take the guy as being honest and upfront and try to look into this in the best way that we can. Now, there is a precedent here that UEFA dealt with back in March 2021 where Glenn Kamara, the Rangers midfielder at the time, was abused during a match against Slavia Prague.

20:12Again, no witness evidence. Sorry, there was witness evidence, but there was no CCTV type of evidence that could be determined. It was whispered in his ear. And UEFA then looked at the overall situation, got the witness evidence in, got a witness statements from Glenn Kamara in. and the perpetrator was convicted, so to speak, in football terms and was given a 10-match ban, which is the most that you can give. And I think it's a similar situation here. If Real Madrid are active, can get Kylian Mbappe to give a witness statement, be very clear about the impact that it's had on Vinny and the impact that it's having on football, then I think the case stands a chance.

20:59If we're looking for objective CCTV evidence, it's not there we're not going to find it and then it's a dead case and we do need the legal case to have some foundation otherwise then we're just into accusations and so on but there are ways around this that we've learned from criminal law and i think need to be applied here how disappointed are you in how ben fika and jose mourinho reacted in the aftermath there are there are ways aren't there in which you can go well we will wait for the investigation our player says he hasn't said anything but we will wait for the investigation that that presumably is how you would recommend dealing with that from their perspective rather than what they did yes and and I think that what we've seen in Spain so to go back a little bit this is the 26th time that we have logged vinicius jr being racially abused in an open environment in the last five years 26 times right uh and in a way that's involved thousands of people often tens of thousands of people not one person or an individual because there are also two people at the benfica match last night you can see the video on social media making monkey gestures towards him so i'm not i'm not counting those two individuals, but mass level racist abuse towards him.

22:24And this is something he's probably the most racially abused player in Europe at the moment. Right. So this is something he's got used to. And he's got also got used to the fact that people are blaming him, the victim. People are saying he shouldn't celebrate in the way that he celebrates when he scores a goal. he carries himself wrongly, he's not humble enough, all of those things that might be an argument if you were talking about somebody's personality or just somebody who should tone it down a little bit, but it's not an excuse for racism. And so I think to see all of that context and then the way that Benfica respond using the name of their greatest player in the words of Jose Mourinho, you know, and then drawing on those tropes and stereotypes that we've seen in Spain is very disappointing, really is.

23:14And Jose Mourinho should know better because he's been involved in English football for a long time. He understands the debates that we've had here. He knows the consequence of dealing with abused players because there have been players on the teams that he's managed that have been racially abused and he's dealt with the impact and the fallout from that. So it's very disappointing. but in the end we know that Jose Mourinho Mourinho is a coach that will coach the team that he's coaching and we'll be all in with them and in the end that's also a problem because it becomes not an issue of human dignity but an issue of your side versus my side you know who gets through in the next match and all of that sort of football politics if you like that should not be consequential in an issue like this you you talked about the 10 match ban is that enough or should it be more and I reckon I reckon every interview that we've probably done over 15 years I end with this same I probably end with this same question really what what's to stop me what will stop me talking to you again in whenever it may be in the end Mark I think that the game as a whole with the with the input of players black players and other players makes the rules there are very active players Clarence Seedorf you mentioned earlier on who whose football credibility is beyond reproach we're also feeding into those rules 10 matches is is what's designated and I think we should focus on that if the guy is guilty I wasn't there you weren't there everything we've seen suggests that something happened let's examine it let's have a legal process a solid process and and 10 matches is enough because that's a long time that's to possibly to the rest of the the season and beyond in terms of a UEFA in fact they will take probably take him out for the next season in terms of a UEFA ban and that's enough I think and everything that goes with that you know the examination of why he did it, what he did, and how he is educated further.

25:24That's enough, I think. We don't have to keep talking in terms of ratcheting up the punishment to a point where no one wants to apply it. It has to be applicable, right? You don't get sentenced for a lifetime in jail for a petty theft, and nor should you. You serve your time, it's proportionate, and that's enough. Piaro, I appreciate your time this evening. Lovely to see you. We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web. Undercover, in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse.

26:06Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigation. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

26:44and the biggest names in the game. The Six Nations. Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast, the Euroleagues. Listen on BBC Sounds. We're going to talk about one of the most positive stories in European football at the moment, which is FC Toon, who never won a major trophy in their 128-year history. But they are currently 12 points clear at the top of the Swiss League. And that is having only just been promoted, from the second tier. I'm delighted to say the FC turn manager Mario Lustronelli joins us on EuroLeagues. Congratulations. Are you surprised by how this season has gone? Good evening, everybody, and thank you for the invitation.

27:32No, I don't be, because if I am surprised that something doesn't go, I think that we are in a fantastic way and we improve day by day. Because of that, I'm not surprised. Has your football been the same in the top division as it was in the second tier that got you promoted or have you had to change things and tweak things? Absolutely the same. I didn't change nothing because it's a football that works very good. We play with a lot of intensity, with high pressing, with energy and this was a good development. We improved really good and then we tried to make the same in the Super League and the first result was really good and then we go on with more confidence and then, you know, you need to win and if you win, you have more confidence and more confidence, you have not more, you want to win again.

28:40When you had two defeats in a row at the end of November, I think it was Lugano and Lausanne, maybe teams like that, you had been on such a great run before. This is maybe where people felt, okay, this is where the fairy tale and this incredible story and season is going to end. Yet, you went on to win again, despite one defeat against St Gallen, who are quite way behind you in the table. But how did you, what kind of words you find for the players after those two defeats in a row? Because that could have unravelled, you know, where that could have stopped all the great things that you were doing and instead, you put that behind you and you go back to winning way.

29:18What was it like for you to lose those two games in a row and yet still continuing after that to win? For me, there are many things. I think one thing is the team spirit. That's really important to have, that everybody knows that the team is in the middle, everybody has his role. And also the team mentality, you know that every day you come to improve. You want this and you can. And you spoke about we lose against Lugano, against St. Gallen, and the resilience is a big part, important part in this development, you know. it's possible to make mistakes, it's possible to fall down, but more important is how quickly you can stand up and go on.

30:17That's very important the team spirit and the team mentality if you are a big hurt. That's a daily work. Mauro, complimenti. When you look at the Swiss League, We're used to thinking that Basel are the team to beat, or more recently, Young Boys have been a team that we've seen in European competition. I know you are focused on yourselves, but what has happened in the rest of the Swiss League to those traditional big clubs? Why are they not competing in the way that they perhaps did in the past? I can answer you in two, three different. If you see last year, the same moment, Lugano has the same points, Basel, the same points.

31:14It's just two, we perform extraordinary. This is one answer. The second one, I think that there is no many teams who work in a way, in a project. I think that we miss a little bit patience. You want to result now. You don't have this passion to wait, to make this way. And if you lose, then you will nervous. You won't change manager, then change players. And what we, by FC Tune, in the last years, we have continuity. Continuity in management, continuity in the club and continuity in the player because we were promoted and we didn't change a lot of players. Just five, six, but profiles that we follow and therefore our principles of the game were important.

32:20So we make step by step and like a manager, I become time. that's also important and become confidence and I give also confidence and then that was a good way but you need also to win if you have good project but you don't win then yeah it's not good Hi Maro congratulations I also heard that you had a great career as a DJ once upon a time before you became a very good manager I'm always struck by the fact that often we look at different coaches and their philosophies, but you're somebody who was a player at the club. You worked at various jobs within the club. You have had experience in every arena within the club to really become this manager that's helped develop.