FA Cup Debrief: Macclesfield make history, Wrexham's Hollywood ending & questions for United

0:00On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief. Listen on BBC Sounds. Hello and welcome to the FA Cup debrief on third round weekend. And what a weekend it has been. Macclesfield of National League North knocking out the holders, Crystal Palace. Wrexham beating Notting Forest on penalties. Loads of goals all over the show. With me to dissect those and all the weekend's big stories, the Telegraph's Northern football writer, Luke Edwards, and two-time FA Cup winner, Andy Cole. Evening both, how are you? Good evening, very good, thank you. Good evening Rick and Andy It's one of those weekends where you're just reminded of why it's just terrific being a football fan It's one of my favourite weekends of the year If you remember this time, 12 months ago, I was talking about Leighton Orient against Man City and the great goal they scored and my dad skipping off into the distance after the game before the game, sorry, skipping up to the stadium Yeah, it's just great for a lower league football fan like myself it is one of the most magical days of the calendar and just watching what Maccasfield did yesterday.

1:05Just truly remarkable. Probably the biggest FA Cup shock, which for a competition that wasn't so long ago, people were deriding and saying it had its day. Well, I think if you're a fan of a low league football club, you always thought that was nonsense. But you look at what Maccasfield did. And the scenes at the end. It's just brilliant. You will remember, if you're a Maccasfield fan, a football club that went out of business in 2020 and had to be reincarnated, that fight that everything is justified by that one 90 minute performance in knocking out Crystal Palace just a brilliant occasion brilliant day and the memories for those players those supporters the owners everybody involved with that football club will last an absolute lifetime and unfortunately for Crystal Palace they will also endure it for a lifetime as well but for being the victims of that biggest shock yeah yeah and and you know I mean we'll get into the the sort of the weeds of that game in a minute but I mean fundamentally Palace weren't weren't good enough I mean it's It's not like it wasn't, as Clinton Morrison describes it, it was not a smash and grab.

2:06It was a thoroughly deserved win, which is amazing, given the gulf between the two teams. The thing that I think I love about this weekend of football is, yes, obviously, you follow your team, of course, but it's the whole thing, that you get to enjoy so much football as a neutral, just as a football fan. And you can dip in and dip out, and the radio is amazing for it in terms of like the around the ground and you can watch a bit as well. And it's just as kind of like a football celebration weekend, Andy. Yeah, growing up watching the FA Cup and having the opportunity to play, it was just something so, so special.

2:44Yeah, where does it, in all the things that you achieved in your career, winning the FA Cup twice, where does that sit? It sits up to be like my first Premier League title, winning the Champions League, because I don't think people actually understand. When you're a kid and you watch that competition, if you want to play football, you always want to know that you've had the opportunity to play in the FA Cup or go to Wembley and play in the final. I remember as a kid watching everyone put on their suits, get on a coach, walk up Wembley. Oh, man, it's crazy. So having the opportunity to play in it, to win it, it's just so, so special.

3:16Listen to you talk about Macclesfield there. I was there, you know, with Sol Campbell before they went out of business and obviously come back into business. It was tough then. It was very, very tough. No training facilities, all those kind of things. Players not getting paid on time and all that. And then to watch that result yesterday, massive result for Macclesfield. Really, really pleased for them. Yeah, so 117 places separate those two sides. Here's the Macclesfield manager, John Rooney. Still doesn't feel real. Obviously, before the game, we were talking about, you know, with a bit of hope and listening to the FA Cup.

3:53But did they really believe it? No, probably not. but when we went one and a lot I was like they're going to come on top now but I thought the lads were I didn't think obviously we won the game but I thought we were well deserved winners as well I thought we were outstanding And you know these players are here because they're good footballers they have ability but was there any question in your mind they had the character to get over the line today having taken the lead? It's hard because you're up against the Premier League side so whether they've got character or not but I thought they showed the character in abundance You know, they showed a real grit about them winning the second duels, winning the individual battles, two centre-halves, the soliders of Rockhead and everything.

4:30You know, I thought we were outstanding, you know. So if anyone questions their lad's character in there after seeing that today, wow. And we've seen the scenes of celebration right at the end. The joy of the plastic pitch is that the fans can join you on there to celebrate. And of course, there'll be faces that you'll see week in, week out, normally stood on the terraces, but certainly with extra faces here today. What did that mean to you right at the full-time whistle? Can you put that emotion into words? No, listen, I was just saying, you know, I was obviously celebrating myself, but then to see the fans coming on, listen, this club went under a few years back, and since Rob's took over, you know, we'd have had success in the league, but we'd never really had that FA Cup run, which we would want.

5:11And to see that, to see the performance, and to see the fans, they deserved that. And I think whether it was a grass pitch, I'm sure they still would have been on that pitch today. John Rooney speaking to Gary Flintoff it's interesting hearing John speak there about character and yes his lad showed abundant character but character is not enough to get a win against a Premier League side Luke no it's not they fully deserved it and yes Crystal Palace will moan about the artificial pitch and that always makes me smile I like to be interested to see Andy's thoughts on that and what the difference is between an artificial pitch and a grass one the game of football is still the same Yes, the bounce might be a little bit different, but they really deserved it.

5:51And for me, Captain Paul Dawson, I mean, what the image of him with his bandaged head. Getting it sort of adjusted before he scores as well is lovely. Adjusted before he got, and then he got ripped off in the celebrations. And then he scores that header. I mean, Paul Dawson will now go down in FA Cup folklore. And that's what I want to stress to people. These achievements will echo through history. We all remember Hereford United beating Newcastle. Newcastle. We remember Wimbledon beating Liverpool in the FA Cup final. Sunderland beating Leeds. Going that far back. These moments will be cherished.

6:25I just thought he epitomised everything that's great. And also Isaac Buckley Ricketts, who got the all-important second goal as well, stabbing it home. Just brilliant. Funny old goal, that. It is a funny old goal, because it sort of trickles across the line, which makes it even better. It makes it even better that it's more memorable because of that. Exactly. And Crystal Palace, big question. Look, they had their moment of FA Cup romance, didn't they? They had the greatest moment in their club's history back in May when they won the FA Cup for the first time. That's just football's ups and downs, isn't it?

6:56They had that wonderful moment and then now they're on probably the receiving end of one of their biggest embarrassments in the competition a few short months later. But that is the FA Cup. That is why it's brilliant. And yeah, I'm just so happy for Macclesfield, but for all of us who've defended this competition and said that it is still special, for the last 10, 15 years when people were trying to say, oh, it doesn't matter, it's a consolation prize. But it's not all about the Premier League. And that's the great thing about English football. I think for Maxwell, like I said, it's been an absolutely unbelievable weekend for them.

7:29You touched on there, the plastic pitch. I'll be very, very honest, I don't like them. Why? What's wrong with them? Because it's not real. Right. Is the bounce different? Yes, it does. It plays different. And if you don't understand it, when you actually, for instance, have a kick around with your mates, you'll understand kicking around with your mates on AstroTurf and then playing on grass. It's a totally different feel. And I think any team who plays on it for, I'm not sure how many games Maxfield have played this season, I don't know, it could be 24, for instance. If you played on it for 12, 13 games, you've got an advantage straight away.

8:06Because you're used to it. You're training on it as well. Now, Palace most probably, I don't know, four or five days working on a plastic pitch and then knowing, right, you've got to play this game whereby you're so used to playing on grass. It's a big, big difference. And it is a little bit of an advantage for Macclesfield, but in saying that, you know, with Palace's quality, that should have caused Macclesfield a lot more problems. Lovely quote from Rob Smith-Hurz, the chairman at Macclesfield, who spoke to Five Live today, just talking about the lads were out party until three or four in the morning.

8:40but he rightly so yes of course but he went home early just so he could go back and watch it all over again and I really like that that's sort of so classic football like you really enjoy some football and the first thing you think is well I want to watch that again my favourite part was the was the stadium announcer saying please don't invade the pitch which is yeah behave yourself come on yeah just come on it's not going to damage it put it that way yeah everyone's going to listen to that mate yeah well done yeah we're definitely not going to invade the pitch And you'll know from having been in the club in a previous incarnation anyway, Andy, the kind of difference that what you get, 120 grand, I think, a winning club for that performance.

9:22And that's massive for a club of that size, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. Crazy money for them. I remember working with someone who was at Macclesfield and, you know, trying to find somewhere to train. You turn up in the morning, you have nowhere to train. and then you drive them around trying to find a blade of grass to train on. And then when you did, you find a park, you train on the park and then someone will be telling you you need to come off the park and things like that. So to see where they're at now, it's absolutely useful, Maxwell. And the money they made as well, a testament to their performance yesterday.

9:56More than luck. They put a shift in. They were the better team and deservedly won the game. And apparently Crystal Palace let them keep all of the gate receipt profits as well, because normally they'd be split between the two sides and Palace would just have them, which is quite a nice touch. Oliver Glasner was not very happy, as you can imagine afterwards. And he just said, we had no kind of quality today. We deserve to lose. I've got no explanation. And it's hard to argue with it, really. It just was really not good enough. And I was listening on the way in to a Palace fan who called in to 6.06 with Robbie and Clinton and they were saying he put it on the players.

10:43He thought it was the players. He didn't feel it was Glasner's fault particularly. I don't know what you made of that, Luke. I think when an FA Cup shock happens, I think the players first and foremost need to take a long, hard look at themselves because they are the better players, man for man. in every single position. And they've been bested by a team in the sixth tier of English football who train twice a week. So talent isn't enough. You've got to do the basics and you've got to put the effort in. And I think anybody who watched that game, particularly in the first half, would have thought Crystal Palace thought they're going to cruise through it.

11:20But that's why shocks happen. That's why the FA Cup's brilliant. Because those top flight teams, the bigger clubs, they take the opposition lightly. The lower league opposition raised their game, fuelled by adrenaline and the Cajun, and that's why the shocks happened. But it's not been great. Crystal Palace are in a difficult spell, actually. That's nine games without a win. It's not a good time for Oliver Glasner. If you think when Ruben Amarin went last week, he was installed as the bookmaker's favourite, and a lot of newspapers, including my own publication, The Telegraph, said that he was the early favourite to get it.

11:54Well, it's not a great time for your current club form. No, it's a drop off a cliff. It's a poor audition is what it is. A very poor audition. It's an audition where you completely bungled your lines, basically. So it's not good for him and he will be worried. And conceding goals from set pieces again, that's not going to endear him to the Manchester United hierarchy who are looking for the next manager to do the latest reboot of that particular faltering franchise. So, yeah, it's a bit of a worry for Crystal Palace. But I think it's also a bit of a worry for Oliver Glasner, who, as I say, if he's going to be Manchester United manager, they might be having second thoughts at the moment.

12:32What do you think about Glasner as a potential United manager, Andy? I'm going to sit here and be very, very honest. I think we're at that stage now. I think Manchester United just need to try and get the best man for the job. And whoever they believe that is, it will be just that. Do you trust them to do that, Andy? Do you have faith that they'll get them? Ultimately, you have to. they've made a decision they've got rid of Amren and now however you look at it they've got to make the right decision based on where they're trying to get to and go from there Who would you go for? Come on Andy let me push you Who would I go for?

13:10Who would you go for? You know what I'm a big fan of Ancelotti I think he just works wonders wherever he goes I like Tuchel I like him as well and Enrique you know But then these are like, as you know, these are big name managers. And now if they're going to go to whatever club they're going to go to, I can't see them working under any restraints if there is any restraints. Right. But they want to come in and be managers, not coaches, which is the thing that Amarin was complaining about at the end. Yeah. So it'd be interesting. I think it's telling they're waiting. They're waiting till the summer.

13:50Because that's what I find really interesting. It's like they obviously got rid of Amarin. We know they had no choice but to sack him in the end after he sort of cornered them, didn't they? Yeah, and I think he'd wanted out, but they wanted to stick by him. The fact that they're waiting until the summer, if you look at the summer, Tuchel, depending on what happens with England, could be available. Pochettino, depending on what happens with the USA, could be available. There's going to be a lot more managers, sort of that world-class bracket, you would like to think, who could be more attracted to it in the summer.

14:21so they're obviously waiting. You do just have to worry that in the meantime, this season's going to drift. I mean, they're talking to your old mate, Ola Gunnar, aren't they, about becoming interim manager again, which for me, Andy, it seems a bit strange, bearing in mind he was interim manager, then manager, and then got sacked, and now they're talking about him coming back, or Michael Carrick's the end of the season. It's not a great situation. Whatever way you look at it, whatever way you try and shape it, they're in a bit of a mess, aren't they? I was looking at this. And thinking about, OK, if it was me making this decision on who to bring in, what profile of manager would I be after?

14:59And you look at the profile of manager that they've had in and they've sort of tried now, I would argue, every profile of manager. So whether it's someone who has done really well in the Premier League with a club that wouldn't be expected to do so well, so Moyes, or someone who's an absolute seasoned veteran, Van Gaal, just a winner, certainly historically, Mourinho, sort of technical thinker of the game, Rangnick, club legend in Solskjaer, and then people who've done really well in their respective leagues abroad, so Ten Hag and Amrim. That's your full range of managers. So whoever they go for, it's going to be someone who's similar to what's gone before and not worked.

15:43Does that make sense? No, it makes perfect sense. I think you've absolutely nailed it. They have tried everything and they haven't actually found... Mourinho's the only one, Van Gaal to a extent. You know, Mourinho did win two trophies. I know he claimed three with the charity shield, which we all mocked him and ridiculed him about, but he did win two trophies. But that is the problem for them. And I think there is now going to be a lot of heat, I think, on Bereda and Wilcox, the chief executive and the sporting director, because they've seen off Dan Ashworth in a sporting director. They were behind the appointment of Amarim and that's gone badly.

16:19And they've got to get this one right. Otherwise, they won't get away with another one. They won't get away with a failed third managerial appointment, I don't think. What Amarim did when he left is he just shone a little torch, didn't he? He just identified, OK, I'm going. I've blown it. But he's fired shots at people as well at the football club. and I think that he has done that very deliberately and I think it increases the pressure on them. Are they going to go and get a manager? Old school, what we call an old school. You look at the successful managers in the Premier League at the moment.

16:49Mikel Arteta, huge power at Arsenal. Unai Emre, huge power at Aston Villa. You've got Pep Guardiola, huge power at Manchester City. Even Eddie Howe at Newcastle, huge power at Newcastle to shape the football side of the business. Manchester United might just have to accept if they had to go and get a Tuchel, people like Wilcox are going to have to back off a little bit and actually cede control of the football side of the business. There's no way Tuchel would come and have people tell him when players were going to play and who they were going to sign. He's not going to do that. He won't have that interference, no.

17:25But there's not many of those world-class managers, because they probably do consider themselves managers, not just coaches. They're not going to get... I don't think to get them out of this mess, they can afford to just appoint an up-and-coming young coach who hasn't got the status or the power to argue or push back with them. It's got to be collaborative. And I'm not sure it has been at Manchester United. That's been disputed. I think Amarin got most of the things he wanted until coming towards the end when he wanted players bought in January. But there's huge pressure on those people. As we mentioned last week, I mean, our memory is that he was appointed as head coach as well.

17:59So I don't know quite why he was moaning about that. Yeah, well, exactly. And, you know, what big decisions has Sir Jim Ratcliffe got right yet in terms of being in charge of the football operation as well. So, you know, the fingers start to be pointed at the people above them. And that's why I think they've got to get this right. And I think that's probably why they are waiting to the summer because I think they want to give themselves a bit of time, a bit of room to breathe. And as you say, more managers potentially available. Well, one thing we know is they are not going to win the FA Cup this season.

18:29They've been beaten 2-1 by Brighton. Really disappointing. A positive for United fans. and they are few and far between, Andy, is another goal for Benjamin Sesko after he got a couple against Burnley in the week. And you just feel like if they can get him firing, that will make such a difference to this team. Yeah, well, of course it will. Like I touched on it again, everything's about confidence, especially when you play up front for a club like Manchester United. A lot's expected of you, but he's a very, very young man. I'm not going to say that I'm trying to make an excuse for him. I look at it this way.

19:08When I went to Manchester United, I had Mark Hughes, I had Eric Cantona. Previously before that, I was playing with Peter Baisley at Newcastle. Previously before that, I was playing with Dave Kelly at Newcastle. But I was constantly learning of players that had been there, done it, and had a hell of a lot of experience. So by the time I got to Manchester United at 25, playing with Sparky and obviously Eric, you know for me that was a joy but it was a learning curve as well you know I went in I might have gone in there people perceived me to oh he's the number one striker but I wasn't the number one striker because I'm there learning of these other legends as well so I look at Cesc now and I'm saying to myself such a young man with under a hell of a lot of pressure as Yoki always used to say to me enjoy the pressure and rightly so but if you're a young man going into Manchester United and people expect you to score goals when you're just moving to the Premier League it's not easy and I think at times I've looked at him at times and he has found it tough you'd expect him to find it tough it's his first season in the Premier League but he's getting goals now like you said he's got another one today and fingers crossed it continues and he continues to gain more and more confidence and gets himself more and more goals I mean look at what happened to Hoyland I know they're different players but another young striker a lot of expectation came in just really struggled and as soon as he's left like he's doing alright in Napoli I think he's scored I can't remember for top of my list he's got like six goals in 14 he's doing a lot better look at Xerxi look at Xerxi before him Andy's right you're throwing young centre forwards and who are they to Andy's point who are they learning from like who are the senior players who are showing them the ropes and there's not really anyone is there no it's a really good point there's not a succession plan is there it's just basically you're not going to be rotated in and out because we've got this other guy who's been there done it he knows the football club He knows the league.

21:01They're just throwing in people. It's all on you. You're the big money signing. Go out there and score goals for Manchester United. And Andy won't mind me saying, you know, he was prolific at Newcastle. But you did find it tough when you first went to Manchester United. You got criticism. You got people taking shots at you in the media and saying that you weren't worth the money. It's hard, isn't it? It's hard. Yeah, of course it's hard. I think for me, that's character building. I always say to Peter's going, I'm not saying I know anything about football because I don't. But I do understand how to play out front.

21:38I do understand how to play for Manchester United as a centre forward. The modern world we live in now, everyone's an expert. My news agent's an expert on football. I've made a career out of it, Andy. I mean, sort of career. Yeah, I mean, I find it difficult even more so now. All the flack that individuals take even more so now in the modern era. I do generally sit down and say to myself, there's a lot of people talking about, can't do this, can't do this, it's rubbish, it's this and that. But they could do no better. Appreciate what it is. An individual going for a difficult time. Fingers crossed, everything turns around for that individual.

22:22But just in life, you have ups and downs in professional football. you have exactly the same. Let's get back to the FA Cup then. The weekend started with a really good game at Wrexham. 2-0 up against Forrest. Forrest came back and then the penalty shootout, which Phil Parkinson's side held their nerve and won 4-3. First time Wrexham have faced Premier League opposition since the famed Hollywood takeover. there's not that being said you look at the kind of the league structure there's only 11 places between them so maybe when you also factor in Forrest's form of late not so much of a surprise Luke No not a huge one and the amount of changes rotation they call it don't they that's the buzz phrase you have to rotate the players look it's a classic one of them situations where Forrest had a really good result don't get me wrong beating West Ham it was absolutely massive for them in terms of solidifying their positions safe in the Premier League.

23:24But Sean Dyche, in that rotation, has kind of signalled that the FA Cup, they didn't want the extra games. Although they would have happily gone through. But at this stage, third round, it wasn't their priority staying in the Premier League. And that is when those teams are always vulnerable. They're always vulnerable when that happens. And then Wrexham, I feel a bit sorry for Wrexham because there's a lot of dislike for Wrexham, isn't there? There's a lot of jealousy. I mean, as I say, being a lower league football fan, the fact they've come through the divisions, the Hollywood owners, the money, there is a bit of bitterness towards Wrexham.

23:56But that was a really good night for them. But it's just Premier League teams being vulnerable, isn't it, Andy? I mean, you laughed when I said that about it not being a priority, but did they go into it with the wrong attitude? It certainly looked like it. Three changes at half-time, 2-0 down. But as far as I'm concerned, we can turn around and say, oh, yeah, we don't want extra pressure against. but if you're winning football matches regardless what games are does that not give you momentum does that not give you more confidence I think it's a mistake yeah I think it's a mistake so then so if you look at their first half performance you turn around and say there wasn't good enough so you can turn around and say okay the players weren't at it because they wasn't at it second half it was a lot better and then penalties anything can happen you know but I can't stand on it as a next player when a manager comes out and says oh yeah well you know we're more worried about our league performances and you know want to stay in the Premier League if you win football matches you're going to get confidence and the more confidence you get that means your league form will naturally get better you know it's just like that win the win at West Ham is sort of undone isn't it confidence wise because they've been knocked out by lower league opposition in Wrexham and it does hurt them I mean it does hurt and I think Nottingham Forest will end up being fine in the Premier League but that's not underplay how much of a bad defeat that was for them and particularly first half a shocking performance being fine in the Premier League is more about there being three teams that are really, really poor.

25:21More than them being any good. It's a deflating result for them. It's a really deflating result for them. If you're a Premier League club struggling and you go out in the FA Cup third round, I'll tell you what that does to the fans. That sucks them of hope. It ends dreams and it takes something away. I think, agree with Andy, a cup run can do absolute wonders for your league form. I thought it was interesting what what Sean Dyche said afterwards, because I kind of agree with him, because he obviously knows he's made a lot of changes, but he said, I'm giving players a platform to come and play and show me what their worth is to themselves and to the team.

25:59And he said, and they didn't do that. It was miles off and it was absolutely unacceptable. So I guess his attitude is, well, this is a big opportunity that I'm giving you. Go out there and prove that actually you should be playing more. And they just didn't do that, Andy. I hear that. But if you look at it both ways, if you're not playing in a team, I don't know, four or five games, whatever it is, ten games, and then you get an opportunity to play one game, in that one game, are you expected to hit the ground running and play extremely well in that one game when you've not played four, five, six games?

26:33Do you know how difficult that is? To be given that opportunity and to try and take the opportunity, knowing that you've not been in the team, to try and hit the ground running, play extremely well, and everyone else has got to play extremely well for you to go on and win the game. It's not as easy as that. When people say it's like turning the tap on and off. You can't turn the tap on and off and say, I'll play today. Next week, I don't fancy it. When there's four or five of them in a team in that situation, it becomes even harder, doesn't it? There you go. When I talk about consistency and confidence, you've got to try and build confidence over four, five, six games.

27:09Not over one game. football's a mind game when you're playing with confidence or you're not playing confidence but you have to try and play yourself into confidence it's a sport We should give a little shout out to the Wrexham keeper by the way Oconquo who did very very well in the shootout and it's you know it's a kind of it's win-win for keepers in shootouts isn't it you don't really get blamed if you lose them but if you if you win them all eyes on you and you're the hero Yeah And look at the joy it sparked at Wrexham. Yeah. That's what matters. The scenes again at the end. He's got that little bit of club history now attached to his name.