FA Cup Debrief: Mansfield cause a shock and refereeing decisions are shocking

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0:40On the Football Daily Podcast, The Debrief. Listen on BBC Sounds. It is fourth round weekend in the FA Cup. We're here to review the action that has been low on shocks, but really high on shocking decisions. I'm Rick Edwards. Joining me is the Telegraph's Northern Football writer and VAR apologist, Luke Edwards, and FA Cup winner David James. Evening both. Good evening. Good evening, Rick. It was, I'm sure this didn't escape your attention, it was Valentine's Day yesterday. And I think it'd be nice to try and establish who out of the three of us is the most romantic. So what did we all provide our partners?

1:23I'll start with you, David. Well, I think I win. Hunstanton. Well, you don't know that yet. No, you don't, you don't. You can't just be presumptuous and say that. I mean, you started with Hunstanton, so it's going to have to go up from there. Hunstanton Indian Arcades. That's actually pretty good. If I was dating you, lovely thought. I would like that. Hey, Rick, have you ever been to Hunstanton before? No. Are you inviting me? Can we go and play in the arcades? Yes, you can come play in the arcades with me. I mean, all I'm really interested in, have they got Sega Rally? Oh, different arcades.

2:052P Falls. Oh, right. Old school. Old school. Yes, okay, fine. I spent as much as the transfer fee for Erling Haaland to get an Erling Haaland key ring. That sounds pretty good. Luke? I mean, you've already got an inkling where this is going to go. I left my house first thing in the morning, having not wished anybody a happy Valentine's Day. Walked the dog, got a train to Birmingham. Didn't acknowledge the existence of said Valentine's Day, but did the night before. I did because I knew I was going to be away working. I bought two Valentine's cards, one X-rated, which can't be displayed for public consumption, and one family-friendly one.

2:55so there was a little bit there was a it was suggestive it was suggestive when i bought the two valentine's card that looks really dodgy so i had to say to the woman when i was buying two valentine's cards these are both for my wife because actually if you think about it buying two valentine's cards at the same time makes you look like a bit of a wrong and yeah look you know what you know what happened particularly when one is crude yeah you left the store and they went oh there's another one of those guys yeah yeah with the old no they're both for my wife excuse. So hang on, where is the crude one?

3:28Is that just like in... I don't know. Kirsty's hidden it somewhere. In her bedside drawer. It's sort of creepy, isn't it? It's not creepy. I cooked and bought some special sort of low alcohol wine that I thought was going to be a triumph that my wife absolutely hated. Yeah, I was surprised. And then we watched half of Marty Supreme. It was all right. I think the wine I think the wine lets me down David wins doesn't he annoyingly David wins Thanks for joining mate, thank you very much Well done mate, well done Can we also just agree I know what we want to talk about but can we just reflect a bit on the magic of the cup before we start moaning about the referees please Agreed

4:19Think back to the third round which was absolutely brilliant this was sort of you know fine and not much to get your teeth into really the one shock was Mansfield Town coming from behind League 1 Mansfield Town to knock out Premier League Burnley and the free kick to win it from their captain Reid is oh very very nice indeed and he scored a couple in their third round winner at Sheffield United as well and after the match he spoke to the BBC's Julia Bold I've had a couple free kicks in my career but the whole day has been special and to top it off with a winning goal was incredible. 37 places between the two teams going into today and at half-time, as you say, Burnley had had plenty of chances in that first half to put the game away.

5:07What did the manager say at half-time to you because you came out much brighter? Yeah, just that we'd almost got away with a few chances in the first half. We were still in the game at 1-0. I think if they'd have got the second goal it could have been a completely different outcome but we came out, we tried to press them as high as we could and it paid off in parts of the game and yeah, to get the two goals and win it is incredible. This is going to be a story of this round of the FA Cup. What does it do for you as players in League One to be this story going into the draw? Yeah, we've got to take this into the league now.

5:42We've come to two teams that are higher than us in the pyramid and done really well against them so if we can continue that form in the league and progress there whilst keeping the cup run alive, that would be great. So here's a question for you both. As Julia mentioned, 37 places between them. But they've been in really good form, Mansfield. So I think they're one defeat in 11 in all competitions. You compare that to Burnley, who've got two wins in 19. I think maybe we shouldn't be that shocked in that case. Yeah, we should. Okay, just checking. Just checking. No, no, no. We should be shocked.

6:22Yeah, we should be shocked. Yeah, no, we should be shocked. OK, fine. Yeah, the reality is, and I'm going to say bar wolves perhaps only because they're point tally this season, but the reality is the Premier League is such a higher standard. And even, I mean, we're talking about today, even when I was playing and I played in the Championship, I mean, what you think is top quality Championship football is nothing compared to the quality that is in the Premier League. So here's the thing about Scott Parker. He made nine changes. Don't get that at all. Yeah, from what was such a great win for them against Crystal Palace on Wednesday.

7:02They're not playing again until Saturday. Getting a good cut run for Burnley would be massive, right? Why make all those changes? I just don't get it. Yeah, when I saw the, you know, you get the team news before the game and I was looking at it, I just, it's counterintuitive because you say they, it's been a miserable season and I was listening to a Burnley fan, I think on the Tony Livesy show on Five Live and they were speaking after that, that midweek comeback win. Well, you listened to Tony probably. Well, he was very excited as well, obviously, but it was, you know, they were, and she was saying that, come on, you know, we've got home tie against Mansfield, we've got a really good chance to just out of this grim grind of a Premier League campaign, just have a bit of enjoyment, a bit of a thrill, some excitement, and try and go as deep as they can in the FA Cup.

7:56And he just tossed that away. That momentum that they had from that win, he just tossed it away for what? I don't agree. Well, there's a surprise. No, no, no, because if Burnley were mid-table and, you know, like a win or two away from guaranteed survival, if you like then they can do that they go okay right well the team's in a good place now because we've won a couple of games let's go for the cup but if he doesn't play the players that he played in that game the nine changes goes with his first team and even if they win then he's going to change keep them for the next Premier League game those players who aren't being used It's in a week It's in a week It's in a week David Yeah but understand this the players that haven't been used at all or very rarely in the league will be thinking hang on a minute I'm not part of any kind of survival thing now.

8:47If they're mid-table, it's fine. But because they're in a relegation battle, he needs to keep his whole squad kind of happy, expecting to win the game, of course. But there's a balance in there. You could make four or five changes, maybe. Yeah, not the whole team. But nine changes. Just go and win. Yeah, but winning brings momentum. You get momentum and confidence from winning. They should have won. And you put back-to-back wins. When's the last time they had back-to-back wins? Last season. And it was a brilliant free kick. Who could have pre-empted that brilliant free kick? It doesn't matter, David.

9:17It's a stupid decision. And I stuck up for poor Scott Parker last week and I was a bit emotional because he sounded emotional talking. And they had a chance to have just a really good week in a miserable season. And he's ruined that by taking Mansfield too lightly, giving his squad players a run out. For what? For what? Because they're not going to stay up. And they're not going to win the cup. We stuck the boot into Thomas Frank. and he got sacked. You did? Yes. You went early. He's your mate. Yeah, I did. He was your mate and you just decided, right, I speak on behalf of all Tottenham fans, he's got to go, is basically what you said.

9:56Yeah, I think I was right. I also think we've put a boot into Sean Dyche, not just with your impression. that was mainly me. And they both got sacked. Is Scott Parker next in our side? Do you think he should go then, Rick? Because you're the man who seems to be executioner on this podcast now. I mean, I actually think probably not. Okay. And the reason being, I'm not sure that you could bring someone else in and they would keep them up. And you've got to think about next season already. And you've got to think about next season. And I think Scott Buck would do a really good job in the championship.

10:33So I would probably stick with him. Sorry, can I? I mean, I'll play devil's advocate here. Of course you will. Well, actually, I'm, yeah. if he's good for the championship next year which he might be likely to be yeah I mean surely there's an argument that you get someone else in now to see out the rest of the Premier League and then they should be and then sack them and then bring Scott back well there is that it'd be a new approach wouldn't it it'd be a new approach a fresh we'd like you to take just a few months sabbatical have a holiday Scott go and have a holiday He could be on loan somewhere.

11:14He could be a loan manager in another country. Yeah, but I mean, I just, I think there's a bit where... Do you think someone can come in and keep them up? Well, if he can't... It's that simple, isn't it? Yeah, well, if he can't keep them up, then it doesn't matter whether someone else can. But the idea that someone else... Yeah, it does, you bring them in. No, no, but for next season, I mean, Burnley should be a good enough state to get promotion again, but you're bringing in someone else who, you know, at the end of another promotional season, they're not going to get into Premier League and do the same thing again.

11:42I mean, you're only asking him to do the same thing in two years' time, surely. Yeah, but then you can think about whether you want to persist with him. I'm just saying for now... I'm not after him getting the sack, I think. I think he stays as well. And I think he does a good job again in the Championship next season. On just the sort of significance for Mansfield of that win, financially, you get... So they've got£375 ,000 for their four FA Cup victories so far, plus the gate receipts. Then if they were to draw a Premier League team away in the next round, that would almost certainly be on TV.

12:25You can make a lot of money by going deep into... Or, again, deep-ish into the FA Cup. And you've got to be absolutely delighted for them. Well, the point is, for a League 1, League 2 team, this is deep into the competition to get to the fifth round. I mean, they've had to play five rounds to get to this point. So that money is huge. And I think we're always in danger of forgetting that because I have to admit, I was slightly underwhelmed by the football this weekend because there weren't any great shots and we were spoilt with Maccasfield. But Mansfield, the money, you know, When most League 1, League 2 clubs, if you look at the figures, are running multi-million pound losses.

13:10We're talking anything from sort of two to five million pounds, six million pound losses every season. That money, which I would estimate with gate receipts, with TV money, is probably pushing, is going to push around to get to about a million pounds by the time they've reached in the next round. That's huge for them. Absolutely massive. and they've had a great day out at Burnley, a far better day out than Wigan had at Arsenal, but we'll probably talk about that in a bit. But, you know, they've had a great day out. Rhys Oates and Louis Reid, you know, are two players now who will go down in sort of, you know, Mansfield folklore.

13:48And, yeah, there's a sort of practical brilliance of what's happening to come, of having a long cup run and the money. But they're also truly special days out for the supporters and for those players. And I hope we never lose that. I get tired of sort of defending the FA Cup. But as you know, I am a fan of a lower league club. And I know, you know, some of my greatest moments as an Orient fan have all come, you know, in the FA Cup through the years. So don't downplay it for Mansfield. But also that money will sort of, is really, really important to them as a business over them. Not just this year, but it'll probably, you know, but next year because it'll probably help them build a better squad in the summer.

14:26Yeah, I mean, you look actually at who's left in. and obviously we've got still a game to play Maxfield against Brentford but Mansfield, Norwich, Southampton and Wrexham are the only non Premier League teams left in the Cup so it is fairly stacked with Premier League teams so that's our magic of the Cup I think, covered off let's talk about the Villa Newcastle game which you were at Luke and Newcastle won 3-1 in the end, no one cares about that because everyone just wants to talk about what an absolute clown the referee and his assistants were. I just unbelievable. I think, actually, in terms of just three stone-cold howlers, I can't really remember a game like it.

15:19So just to go through them, the Villa goal from Tammy Abraham, very clearly offside. Not close. It was close. in real time inside the stadium, David, you could tell he was offside. Yeah, and also if I'm standing, if my job... says the Newcastle reporter, you were going offside. David, if your job is standing on, looking down the line and telling whether Sonny is offside or not, that should be very, very straightforward. I'm not asking the rest to call it. Luke suggested that where he was sat, he could see it as clear. Yes. I could tell he was offside inside the stadium. Well, anyway, he was. So does that.

16:04Thank you, Rick. Lucadinha's handball. I mean, I don't know. You're going to tell me you couldn't quite tell that was in the area, David? Or hit his hands. Yeah. From where I was. Yeah, OK. Yeah, fine. And then this is the one where you're like, OK, I'm not sure. or Lugodinia probably should have been sent off for that tackle on Jacob Murphy with his studs up. But I don't think in real time everyone necessarily thought that. No, inside the stadium again. Oh, really? Interesting. It was the speed with which he hit him. Right. And the fact the ball wasn't there and sort of how high Jacob Murphy went up in the air that you sort of thought...

16:49And a very big stud mark on his shin, actually. Yeah, it was at speed, I think. It was naughty. It probably didn't quite come across on television. On handball, I think you can't be wrong with that one. As in, you're right, it was very wrong. I think with the tackle, the tackle was interesting because watching on telly, you look at it and think, oh, was his leg high? Was his foot high? Because players quite often throw themselves up in the air, Luke. So if a referee makes an interesting decision, it's going to be, okay, it's a heavy challenge, but did he actually hurt him? And it wasn't until the replay and when you said he showed his shin and there was studs in it.

17:28Yeah. There was a bit there where you're thinking can the referee actually go back and go hang on a minute, I've made a mistake here. I'm going to... I don't know. He should be able to. Yeah, I don't know though. He had his yellow card out immediately. Yeah. So he already had his yellow card when he was running over to the incident. I don't think he'd seen it properly. I honestly don't think he'd actually seen it properly in real time. I think he did. And he might not have done, because, again, I can only go over what I saw on TV. What it looked like was Dini's foot was on the ground, so it was a low tackle, and it wasn't until the replay that you see he lift his foot right at the end, and you're sort of thinking, OK, that's a bad tackle.

18:06If you're kind of just looking at the whole movement, you think, OK, that's a normal rough tackle, not a normal dangerous tackle. But when you see the injury on the player, then I'm sure the referee must be all going on a minute. I've got to reconsider this. How's his stug got up there? Yeah, I think my point is, and I think they've got lazy, the match officials, and I think they've become too reliant on VAR. And I've written a sort of, in the Telegraph, I've written this argument that this proves why we need VAR. I don't think it's actually as straightforward as that. I just think it was a rank bad officiating display from Chris Kavanagh and his two assistants.

18:42But here's the question, and maybe I haven't read your piece because I think it's behind a paywall, and I'm not going to line those people's pockets, I've got to tell you. You can screenshot it and say it to us. Yeah, it's true actually. Is there an argument, a reasonable argument to say that irrespective of anything else, VAR is making the referees worse at their job? I think, yeah, I think that is it because I think they know, I think they've got into this state of mind. Well, it's a safety net, isn't it? Yeah, where, you know, for example, we'll take the Dignan tackle. He was almost on autopilot.

19:19It's like, oh, I'll show a yellow because it's a foul. And then I know that if it's a red card, I'm going to be called over to the screen. And it's like, so I can see why that sort of, that has kind of happened, but they know they haven't got that system. It's not like it's a big surprise to them when they suddenly realize, oh, there's no VAI. They know when they're refereeing. I think it's changed the way referees are looking at the game. I don't think they are as used or as shut. I think Eddie Howe used a really good word, sharp. They're not as sharp in their sort of looking at incidents. And I mean, I thought there were other ones.

19:54I mean, Harvey Barnes, you know, and Arna doesn't get the ball. He does make contact with him. I'm not calling for a penalty, but it's one of them, you know, that might have been looked at. I think the Lewis Hall one, which was sort of been slightly ignored. I thought the Lewis Hall one looked like a pen. I thought it was a penalty. I think it was a penalty. I thought it was a penalty. But he didn't really... He didn't complain. Yeah, which is odd. But the amount of decisions for Newcastle, they just won after another, and you're sat there in the game saying, that's one bad call. And then it's like, that's two.

20:26That's three. And then the one, just the icing on the cake after half-time, when they missed the blatant handball. It's like, what on earth is happening here? How bad is this? Can I interject a minute? Yes, of course. The one thing I haven't got, although I did send you a load of some information on Kavanagh and Newcastle. It wasn't rubbish. We're assuming that all referees only referee with VAR in this conversation, which isn't the case. A lot of these guys must be refereeing at championship level as well. Which is worrying because they're hopeless. That is a worry. Listen, referees have had a bad day.

21:04They have a very bad day. Yeah, they can have a very bad day as well because unlike us who don't. But also, it's not just the referee, is it? It is the team. It's the assistants. Yeah, yeah. Because they've got to help him out. But I go back to the point. On the offside and on the handball, certainly. The paradox is that there are fewer games that are VAR'd than games that aren't. And these referees referee a lot more games than just Premier League and VAR games, yes? So it's not like they don't have the practice of making these decisions and they're not getting assessed for refereeing without VAR as well.

21:40So I just think that they only rely on VAR is wrong. It was inept. It was inept. But here is my maybe lukewarm take, which is I would still rather be complaining about the referees making bad decisions than egregious decisions made or not made by VAR. I find VAR errors much, much harder to accept. I think that's a reasonable position. Yeah, so that, I sort of, I would, as a Newcastle fan, whatever, I would look at that and go, well, the referees had an absolutely shocking game there. Yeah. And then, that's sort of it. No, I would, I think there's a middle ground with that argument though, Rick.

22:34Yeah, you want it to be better than that, but... I go back to the original use of EAR. The words are clear and obvious. We all, It was like the Thierry Henry handball goal against Ireland. It was goals like that. Frank Lampard shot against Germany, hitting the crossbar and going over the line. But that's goal line technology, which is slightly different. Yeah, well, it's fine. But it was those really huge blunders that you thought, oh my God, I can't, that is so wrong. That is so unjust. He's made such a horrendous error there. So for all of those decisions, if you peel them all back, it would be two of them, wouldn't it?

23:10that actually you'd think, well, VAR, an acceptable use of VAR would have been to rule out the goal for offside because that's factual, it's clear, it's obvious, and the handball. The others are all fairly subjective. So if you scale back the use of VAR, I think you can actually have a nice, happy balance, an equilibrium between the use of technology to get rid of the absolute howlers and also stop that joy being sucked out of football, the goal celebrations, by over-meddling of the VAR. But also, if it is actually clear and obvious, it doesn't take long. So neither of those, like the offside goal and the handball, that's pretty much instantaneous.

23:49It's just someone at Stockley Park saying, oh, by the way, that is offside. I've done. And oh, by the way, that handball is definitely in the box. That's in the penalty area. Yeah, it takes 10 seconds. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I mean, one of the, if not the primary reason for VAR even becoming a discussion was the mistaken identity. Remember Arsenal? I can't even remember the name of the players now it's that long ago and it was the mistaken identity thing which has only ever happened once that was the primary reason for VAR then it was the clear and obvious and all the pulling and shirt pulling and stuff like that I agree I think I like VAR in principle I think the subjective nature of decisions on the pitch is only being transferred to the subjective nature of some guy in a caravan somewhere or a Stockley park I'm sure they're in a caravan now Can you imagine?

24:38Just a lay-by on the A1. I'm picturing a real sort of snatch set-up as well. But that subjective nature is what infuriates you. And I think in recent weeks, it's got even worse. It's almost like everything has been VAR'd. And like you said, you're sucking the soul out of this. Just make decisions quick. And if you're wrong, we already expect you to be awful. Just scale it right back. Just scale it right back. Yeah, I think that's probably it. Shall we have a listen to Eddie Howe's take on it? He chatted to the BBC's George Cummins. I think usually I'm very focused on the game and I'm very reluctant to get involved with fourth officials and discussions on decisions, but I felt today I had to.

25:17So I was trying to lend my opinion because I felt it was having an influence on the result. And as I said, no one did it intentionally. It was just one of those things that went against us. Most important thing was that it didn't affect our performance and the players did really well in that respect. Do you think referees have almost become too reliant on VAR and this is one of the problems tonight, was the errors? Because it was clear there was a few errors in tonight's performance. Yeah, possibly. And I think you have to sort of understand that as well. The linesman would usually keep his flag down, allowing the attack to finish, and then VAR would do its thing.

25:51But of course, without that, you're reliant on the decision to be right. And unfortunately for us, a few went against us. And that said, despite the no VAR, it was actually a belting game, wasn't it? It was absolutely brilliant. It makes the game faster. So it's like, well, it's good for the neutral. It's good for, I think that's why I'm slightly against VAR, because I think it's a spectacle. I think it's a much better game without. But of course, then you end up with more inconsistencies on decisions. But I think there's no denying for me, it's a much better spectacle when a goal is a goal and you can celebrate it knowing that no one's going to take it away.

26:21We'll talk more about the weekend's FA Cup matches shortly. But first, here is your half-time teaser. Before Mansfield Town, who are the last four teams from League One or lower to make it to the fifth round of the FA Cup? partners on the way after this.