FA Cup Debrief: Port Vale shock Sunderland and Wrexham almost get a Hollywood ending

12:29Aaron Paul:absolutely let's push on and go to Saturday evening's fixture Chelsea had to come from behind twice in order to avoid a cup shock in North Wales at Wrexham the Welsh side are used to plenty of the cameras but it was the VAR cameras that spoiled their chances of making in the FA Cup quarterfinals for the first time since the 90s. At 2-0 in injury time, George Dobson's yellow card was upgraded to a red for a challenge on Alejandro Garnaccio. An extra time with Chelsea 3-2 up. Luis Bront's goal was disallowed for offside following a VAR check. What did you make of the decisions, Andy?

13:04Luke Edwards:Don't get me started on VAR. Come on. Do not get me started on it. I'm not a fan of it. I'm still trying to work out in my head how it's going. How is it improving the game or how is it supposed to improve the game? I see the game against Tottenham and Palace the other day. I think they said Sarr was offside by his nose. Now, that tells me everything. That tells me everything I need to know about VAR. I'll leave it there.

13:35Andy Cole:The Magic Killers, Aaron. That's what they are. They are the FA Cup Magic Killers because it was a cup tie that had absolutely everything. It was a brilliant cup tie, high drama. Wrexham were superb. Chelsea were rattled. Chelsea were uncomfortable. You have to give credit to Chelsea as well because they came through a difficult test and they've been criticised for their lack of professionalism at times this season and their decision-making. But they sort of held firm, really, under the bombardment from Wrexham. and it's just a shame that I agree that the Dobson sending off Aaron, I don't know about you Andy, but I did actually think it was a sending off.

14:18Andy Cole:Yeah, yeah. Because he is out of control and he does catch him high on the shin and it is at speed and it was a yellow card in real time and Andy's right, without VAR we'd have still had a proper cup tie because it would have just been a yellow card. But I think once VAR is there, that was going to be a red card and the offside is just such a shame because he doesn't need to touch it. it was going in anyway. It was Kiefer Moore's initial effort. It was going anyway. They were down to 10 men. They get it back to free all. And in the end, all of that drama, all it lacked was the Hollywood ending.

14:51Andy Cole:We know we associate Wrexham with Hollywood, but that was the only thing lacking from it. Wrexham gave a brilliant account themselves, but I do have to give, I don't know about Andy, but I do have to give credit for Chelsea because yes, they're expected to win. They're playing a team above them, but they kept firm, didn't they? They actually, they were under pressure. they were in trouble but they came through it

15:11Luke Edwards:Yeah, you've got to give Chelsea credit I think a lot's been made of Chelsea at the moment especially with the managerial change as well but to go there and to finish the game off it was a tough game for them Wrexham showed just how good they are even more at home they tested them and pushed them all the way but you could turn around and say I think the Premier League quality came through at the end

15:35Aaron Paul:I mean I think that's not Kairas when it gets going is unbelievable. They've got a massive game to come with Swansea City in the Derby on Friday night. But that's the one thing this Wrexham story has missed, Luke, is a cup run, a fairytale cup run. They've had all this success coming out of the National League and the EFL. A lot of people just simply do not like them. There is a lot of jealousy in football and a lot of envy in football, and that's fair enough. But I don't know. I just thought it would be their night last night.

16:05Andy Cole:It looked like it was going to go that way. I thought when they went to one up I thought I thought that was it but then Chelsea get the goal back almost immediately yeah there is a lot of jealousy around Wrexham and I totally understand that you know it's the politics of envy isn't it they've got these wealthy owners who've come in from America the Hollywood stars there's a big documentary about them but you can't argue with what they've done Phil Parkinson what a job he has done as manager and he obviously had that amazing cup run with Bradford didn't he when they when they got to the um the league cup final so yeah I know what you mean I I I thought it was maybe you know scripted that they would end up knocking out Chelsea would have been a great episode of the documentary which I'm sure they're still filming um but it wasn't to be and they've got an if they play like that though they've got an excellent chance of going up through the playoffs in the championship and I think they'll be the first team wouldn't they to do it for successive promotions yeah let's hear from let's hear from the wrexham manager Phil

17:02Aaron Paul:Parkinson.

17:03Luke Edwards:We have gone toe-to-toe with a really good team and we really did. We looked like we could cope in the company of the power, the extra technical ability. So we've got to be happy we've come up against some good players. I think Sam Smith, I said to him, your comparison to Dalap, 60 million pound player, people will be saying, well, that's a close call watching that tonight. I'm not bigging Sam up too much, but he was immense. He was immense. And in some ways, because you've got so many big games to come. Many will be televised, many will be under the lights. Do you use this from a coaching point of view, maybe mentally as much as physically, to say to your players, you've got to produce this time and time again to get to where you want to go?

17:46Luke Edwards:Yeah, I think we did the presentation to the lads yesterday about recent performances and what we needed to bring, what we've been doing well and what we needed to bring to the table tonight. And we did it. And yeah, it's more of the same.

17:59Aaron Paul:I mean, Chelsea flexing their squad muscles there, Andy, making nine changes to the starting XI. Five defenders, two defensive midfielders. It took them 27 minutes to get their first attempt on goal. What did you think of Liam Rosini's side, considering how impressive they were against Aston Villa midweek?

18:19Luke Edwards:I think when you make so many changes, it's never easy. But, I mean, I know Liam. I played with him. Obviously, I played with his dad as well. And I think Liam finds himself in a situation, he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't, you know. And I think if he doesn't do well, like I said, you know, he's going to take a lot of flack. And if he does do well, he's going to take a lot of flack. But I'm very happy that he got the result he got yesterday. And like he said, you know, he can move on to midweek now. We'd have got a tough game in the Champions League.

18:53Andy Cole:What's he like, Andy? Liam. Yeah.

18:57Luke Edwards:Liam's a genuine guy. Real nice kid, intelligent kid. For him to be at the level he's at now, like I said, I'm very, very proud of him. It's not easy going into a club like Chelsea who's got great history in sacking managers when they're doing particularly well or seem to be getting the train back on the tracks. So I think ultimately he knows it's going to be difficult for him because he wants to be accepted by everyone and ultimately he's going to find it hard. But if he keeps getting results, there's not a lot anyone can say.

19:31Aaron Paul:The FA Cup feels like a very winnable competition for Chelsea this year, Luke.

19:36Andy Cole:Yeah, I think so. Yeah, they've got a... Well, you say that actually, Aaron, but if you look at it, we're going to talk about Man City in a bit, but wow, they were very, very good against Newcastle. Liverpool are still in it. Arsenal are still in it. It's winnable in that they're into the quarterfinals and they've only got three games to win. But I think there are better teams than Chelsea in the competition. If you look at league positions. So it is, and it's a realistic chance of silverware. And as Andy said, that's the only way the manager's going to get people off his back or prove people wrong or silence all the detractors is by winning football games and doing well in the FA Cup.

20:15Andy Cole:And I think for Man City and Arsenal, is the FA Cup going to be their priority between now and the end of the season?

20:23Aaron Paul:It's an unbelievable competition to win.

20:25Andy Cole:I agree, but is it going to be their priority? Is what I'm saying.

20:29Luke Edwards:You see, when you talk about priority...

20:31Andy Cole:Yes, here he comes.

20:33Luke Edwards:I'm sitting here thinking to myself, is it not a priority to win everything? Yes, it should be.

20:41Andy Cole:There you go.

20:43Aaron Paul:You don't get no trophy for fourth place.

20:45Luke Edwards:Exactly. When you're at the top of the... When you're perceived to be one of the best teams in the league, yeah?

20:51Andy Cole:Yeah.

20:52Luke Edwards:your manager start of the season managers players will always say okay we want to win the league we want to be the best team after 38 games I'll get that I've been in that position the manager used to say that to us every season cup game or a bonus you get to a cup finals with a bonus but if you want to win the league you've got to think about being the best team after 38 games once you find yourself in that position of quarter finals you turn around and say we've got a chance of winning this by the way and we want to win that was our mentality and I'd like to believe that the club's out there and I still have that mentality.

21:22Luke Edwards:Yeah, of course we want to win the FA Cup. It's quarterfinals. I mean, we start to smell the hot dogs here. Let's go and win the competition.

21:31Aaron Paul:They'll be smelling the croque monsieur. Is it croque monsieur? Monsieur? Croque monsieur? Croque monsieur, isn't it? I didn't do French. They'll be smelling the croque monsieur.

21:40Andy Cole:It does show, Aaron, that you didn't know.

21:43Aaron Paul:I did Spanish, mate. They'll be sniffing out the cheese on toast. They go away to Paris Saint-Germain on Wednesday. Chelsea before going to Newcastle, before taking on Newcastle at Stamford Bridge and then Paris Saint-Germain for the return leg at Stamford Bridge on the 17th. So it's a big set of games. And I mean, this was no walk in the park, Luke. They're going to have to, well, I presume Liam Rosina will revert to type and those nine changes will be undone for both games. We might see limited changes, but they're going to have to just sharpen themselves up for the European champions.

22:21Andy Cole:Yeah, that's a pretty daunting task, isn't it? Taking on PSG over two legs, the holders, obviously. Chelsea, they blow hot and cold. They have done all season. The change of manager, I think Liam Rossini has done very well, really. I think it's been, as it was always going to be, it's been a challenging start. It's been a testing start. There's been some dips. There's been some criticism. But overall, I think he's done pretty well. but I'm not particularly confident they'll beat PSG over two legs. PSG haven't been at their best, I don't think, this season, but you would imagine these teams, and we saw it in last year's competition, the big European teams tend to get better as the Champions League goes on because their domestic competitions are less challenging, whereas all the English contenders, although we've got so many teams in the round of 16, they all look a little bit jadier, they all look a little bit exhausted, that it's so intense, the competition in the Premier League every week.

23:16Aaron Paul:Arsenal are through after a scare against League One, strugglers Manziel Town. Substitute Will Evans brought the Staggs level following Nani Madueke's first-half goal. Abreche Eze came off the bench to win it for the Gunners. Again, nine changes made by a manager in the form of Mikel Arteta who named two 16-year-olds in the starting line-up. Max Daumann returning and Marley Salmon. But the team also included Kai Havertz, Leo Trossard, Gabriel Martinelli Christian Norgard Ricciardo Calafiore and the goal scorer Madalweke 11 shots in the first half for Manchester they gave it a real good go Andy they certainly did

23:51Luke Edwards:you know it was really nice to see as well you know them have a go at Arsenal a bit unfortunate in the end you've got to be honest with them you know when you talk about cup shots and that but I enjoyed the way they went out there the way they played the belief that they could cause a shot which is the most important thing you know got themselves back to 1-1 and pushed Arsenal. Really, really did push Arsenal. So I think Nigel Club will be absolutely delighted with their performance. Yeah, naturally disappointed they've gone out, but really, really pleased.

24:20Andy Cole:Yeah, I think that's the most shots Arsenal have faced in the first half this season. 11, which tells you everything, really. They've given them more of a game than a lot of Premier League teams have done this season. But Arsenal, you know I'm positive about Arsenal. I'm determined to not knock them. I'm determined not to get onto this bandwagon of having a go at their style of play and their set-piece football. You know that about me, Aaron. They were professional.

24:46Aaron Paul:Mate, I've got nothing wrong with their set-piece football. I hate all this. I know, but people have. This whole thing about sort of like, you know, stick an asterisk next to it, I think is so poor. There are many ways to get the job done. It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you put the points on the board. Exactly. Goals change games. That's it. Exactly.

25:05Andy Cole:They had to dig in. They had to get the job done. They did it. They preserved energy. They kept legs fresh for their Champions League games in midweek. Another textbook outing for Mikel Arteta. Very good. Get off Arsenal's back, everybody. Andy. I don't like the anti-Arsenal bias that has crept into the media, of which I'm part of.

25:24Aaron Paul:Andy, where are you on the Arsenal agenda?

25:27Luke Edwards:The quality Arsenal have. I would like Arsenal. Let the players be free. There's been a lot of talk of someone like Eze. I think Eze is a wonderful footballer. He's a free spirit. I mean, and then sometime I watch him play for Arsenal, obviously when he's at Palace, he's a totally different player. You know, when you've got so much quality in your team, you know, you've got to have these guys go out there and just use their magic.

25:52Aaron Paul:Are we starting to really understand the defined definitions, if you like, of what a head coach is and what a manager is? and the fact that a manager maybe does some of the training, he'll go and coach some of the time, he'll leave it to a band of assistants, but a head coach is there drilling these guys. And we see Mikel Arteta, he's very much a head coach. He's a disciple of Pep Guardiola. Is what you're coming from, Andy, is that over-coaching? Is it a stimulant of over-coaching?

26:24Luke Edwards:When I get asked this question, I always turn around and say, look, playing under the swell experience, he didn't coach. He knows what he wants. He's got his coach. his coach implements the sessions. We go from there. And he'll have us, for instance, Monday, Tuesday, we play in the Champions League or whatever it may be. Wednesday, we come for a warm down. Thursday, Friday, we have us. But once we went out there, it was like, go and enjoy yourself, express yourself and get the supporters behind you. So once you cross that white line, ultimately, you work it out for yourselves because you're all good players.

26:56Aaron Paul:We'll talk more about the weekend's FA Cup matches shortly. But first, here is your halftime teaser. at Port Vale are the last League One team in the FA Cup. How many current League One teams have won the FA Cup in their history? Answer on the way after this.

27:28Luke Edwards:We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web. US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

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28:35Andy Cole:Listen on BBC Sounds. On the Football Daily Podcast,

28:42Aaron Paul:The Debrief with Aaron Paul. Welcome back to the FA Cup review. Before the break asked, how many current League One teams have won the FA Cup in their history? Any guesses, gentlemen?

28:52Andy Cole:I'll guess two. I'm going to go six.

28:56Aaron Paul:Can you name those? Let's see if you can... Wigan. Yeah. Luton. Huddersfield. Yeah. Bolton very much so Bradford won it Bradford City have won it 19-11

29:10Luke Edwards:yeah Wimbledon there you go

29:13Aaron Paul:so the answers Wigan, Wimbledon, Bolton Blackpool, Huddersfield Bradford Barnsley oh Barnsley Barnsley yeah Barnsley won it in 19-12 oh wow and Cardiff City 19-27 wow let's push on and talk Fulham Southampton Ross Stewart's injury time penalty was enough for Championship side Southampton to knock out Premier League. Fulham Saints in great form going into this one. Their unbeaten streak is now at 10 in all competitions. Fulham have lost five of their last eight. How much of a shock, though, is this? Andy, talk to us about your former club.

29:51Luke Edwards:I wouldn't sit here and say it's a big shock. You know, I think you could look at it and say, look, Fulham being at home could have been expected to win it. But I look at the form Southampton have been in, since they've changed the manager, it's been absolutely crazy. You know, the form has been brilliant. I saw them the other day, I think it was against QPR that they won five, was it? You know, and he's got them playing, he's got them playing with a hell of a lot of confidence, playing good football. So for me personally, I wouldn't say, like I said, it's a big surprise. I think it'd be more disappointment for Fulham, you know, being the home team.

30:27Aaron Paul:Talk to me about another disallowed goal, though.

30:32Andy Cole:well the yes i thought that was slightly strange because i've only seen the replays i wasn't watching the game but um the goalkeeper kicks the ball against his own players back and then fulham score but the referee claimed he'd already blocked what he claimed said he had already blown the whistle because the ball was be the goal kick was taken when the ball was moving but i've only seen a replay on the BBC website and it looked like the ball was still when the goalkeeper kicked it so I thought that goal should have stood it's a bit strange but unfortunately as Andy will know once the referee has blown his whistle for something like that the play is dead so factually correct.

31:13Aaron Paul:Fulham are coming to a bit of a crossroads with Marco Silva aren't they? Nine changes he made from the side that was beaten by West Ham in the last week. Their transfer policy is interesting to say the least, but he's playing it very coy as well, refusing to, well, he hasn't signed a contract and refusing to admit that, you know, he might be leaving his job. He's going to probably watch and wait until the summer, but they are approaching a junction, Andy. Where do Fulham look now? Because it feels as though they aren't that side that are going to be flirting with relegation. They've got an established style of play, entertaining football surely you do what you can to hang on to the manager yeah

31:54Luke Edwards:but it all depends on what the manager wants and what Fulham want you know I look at Fulham now and there are cemented Premier League team finishing mid-table that's that's their expectations I think you know not flirting with relegation finish mid-table everyone's happy now does the manager want that does the manager want to kick on and say look I want to try and push for European football every season or every other season I want to try and which they had the opportunity to do today advancing the cup competitions a little bit more you just don't know so when you mention the manager now not agreeing a new contract, going to wait around until the summer he's most probably at that stage where he's saying to himself look I want to kick on but does the form want to kick on

32:42Andy Cole:He's done a very good job and there's been friction there hasn't there Aaron There was friction in the summer over the lack of transfer business. That has been one of the themes of this season. Angry managers being annoyed. If you go back to summer, David Moyes was annoyed. Glasner was annoyed. Eddie Howe was annoyed. There's been lots of managers who've been publicly irritated by things that have gone on behind the scenes this season. I think Silva's done a good job, but I just don't understand. They are the definition of mid-table. They are safe. So why have they made so many changes for a home FA Cup game?

33:14Andy Cole:and that doesn't make any sense to me it doesn't make any sense to me like you've got you're safe in there it's the same with Sunderland but Fulham even more so at home you've got a chance to get into an FA Cup quarterfinal you're then two games or one game away from playing a semifinal at Wembley these are all things that aren't normal or usual for Fulham these are exciting things that they could have done and he's rotated the players today and they've ended up losing at home to a championship team I will never get my head around that Aaron never get my head around it And they were booed off, deservedly booed off.

33:46Andy Cole:They were booed off by their own supporters.

33:48Luke Edwards:But you don't know the manager's reasons. You know, he might be turning around and saying, I've been using the same players for how many games now and I just think they need the rest. But you already touched on it. For them to have the opportunity to get to the quarterfinals, you turn around and say to yourself, quarterfinals all resting? I know what I fancy, a quarterfinal.

34:06Aaron Paul:You're not going down. You're not really looking that far up. Surely you go for the quarterfinals. No, 100%. especially when your fans are paying the money they do to go and watch the football at the cottage. It certainly is a disappointing one for Fulham. But congratulations to championship side Southampton, who got the win, by the way, wearing their yellow and blue kit to commemorate the 50th anniversary of their FA Cup win. On Saturday night, as a routine win in the end for Manchester City at St. James' Park, Harvey Barnes bagging the opener for Newcastle. Four goals from Savinia and two from Omar Marmouche.

34:45Aaron Paul:Sealed the deal for City. Pep Guardiola making 10 changes. Erling Haaland not even in the squad. City were already 3-1 up when he brought on Antoine Semenya, Phil Foden and Rayan Cherky. Luke, I presume you were there. I was. Talk to me about it.

35:03Andy Cole:It was ominous, really. Newcastle were very good for 20 minutes, half an hour. got the lead and then just the fatigue caught up with them Man City had made 10 changes and you just wouldn't have known Aaron they were so good they were the best team I've seen this season the way they kept the ball the way that they manipulated Newcastle the way they made them run the way they realised that fatigue was going to catch up with them and just made them chase the ball chase the ball chase the ball it was something that Barcelona in their pomp used to do to teams you know tie them out and yeah they were really, really good and it was a sobering reality check for Newcastle because there's been some rather over-excitable talk emanating from the boardroom from the Saudi Arabian owners, from the CEO about being in the conversation to be one of the best clubs in the world, regularly competing for the top European and domestic honours by 2030.

35:57Andy Cole:Well, that's four years away and I think Manchester United have played Newcastle five times this season, beaten them four times and knocked them out of both cup competitions. They're the standard bearers for what is an elite club in this country and in Europe and Newcastle were way off it and I think it it sort of very harshly showed just how big that gap between Newcastle they've done brilliantly Newcastle under Eddie Howe they've had a fantastic run they have closed that gap they've gone in four and a half years from a team battling relegation to one that's qualified for the Champions League twice in three years and won the Carabao Cup but to make that next step that is huge I don't see that happening in four years, Aaron.

36:37Andy Cole:And I think, I know we're talking about one game being a microcosm, but it wasn't just one game. It was what happened in the Carabao Cup semi-final against Man City. And every, you know, probably nine or ten, certainly nine of Man City's, if we want to call it a second string squad team, heavily rotated. I reckon nine of those players will get into Newcastle starting 11. I just don't see how in the space of four years Newcastle are going to close that gap.

37:02Aaron Paul:It was clinical, wasn't it? From Manchester City, Andy. but fundamentally Newcastle have been shipping goals at the back.

37:14Luke Edwards:Yeah, I was saying I was in Newcastle last week to be fair and I was saying that it's been a difficult season for Newcastle this season. Very difficult, not sure why. But I've found it a lot harder than anticipated. Could say Champions League come a little bit too early for them. having so many games to play and not having the biggest of squads, but it is what it is. They've got to suck it up and they've got to try and get themselves getting positive results and they've got a massive game midweek against Barcelona, which is not going to be easy. With Manchester City, the performance yesterday was absolutely brilliant, but I just find them so inconsistent at the moment.

37:57Luke Edwards:If you look at that performance yesterday to the performance midweek against if not on Forest. He was talking cheese. He made 10 changes as well for this game. If they played like they did yesterday or on Wednesday, the gap between them and Arsenal would be a lot smaller, but inconsistent.

38:18Andy Cole:I think with Newcastle Andy, what they've done, they've almost been a victim of their own success and people lose sight of that. They've attacked four competitions this season and it's really interesting listening to Pep Guardiola after the game because he was asked about, that's what I've just alluded to there about that 2030 thing and he said Newcastle have just haven't, Man City are used to playing Champions League, going deep into cup competitions, competing for league titles they've been doing it for more than 10 years now, so have the other big clubs so has Liverpool, so has Chelsea, so have Arsenal Newcastle just haven't and they've tried to with a squad that just doesn't have the depth doesn't have the quality to try and they've got to the cup semi-finals in the Carabao Cup, they've got through to the knockout rounds of the Champions League for the first time in their history but their league form has suffered as a result and they've come up against Man City in the cup and they've gone out because Man City are better than them.

39:07Andy Cole:You know, player for player, they're better than them and Newcastle have punched above their weight, really. They've done really, really well for four years and I think this season is just that moment where it's kind of all cut up with them. Yeah, that's the phrase and it's just caught up with them.

39:20Aaron Paul:Eddie Howe has called Tuesday's game with Barcelona the biggest game in the club's history. They're fixtureless. Barcelona, Chelsea away, Barcelona away and then the derby against Sunderland. Oh, that's going to be, that's mouth-watering. Really, really is. By the way, that derby live on 5 Live. Your other results in the FA Cup this weekend. Liverpool are through to the next phase of the competition after beating Wolves 3-1. Molineux leads United also through their dispatch with Norwich City by three goals 2-0. Thank you to Andy and Luke. That's all we've got time for on the FA Cup debrief. Don't forget, tomorrow night, live on BBC Radio 5 Live, we've got full commentary of West Ham United against Brentford and the FA Cup draw as well.

40:10Aaron Paul:We'll catch you then.

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41:06Andy Cole:Listen on BBC Sounds.

41:11Luke Edwards:We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.