FA Cup Review: Shocks, thrillers and hammerings

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1:47Hello and welcome to the FA Cup review. There were two thumpings, a thriller and a shock in amongst the quarterfinals and our semi-finalists are confirmed. Manchester City, Chelsea, second-tier Southampton and Premier League relegation battlers Leeds. So many stories in this round, including a dramatic shootout win for Leeds on Sunday evening and Southampton's humbling of Premier League leaders Arsenal. But there's so much more to get into. Even when Chelsea score seven at home, a player not involved, Enzo Fernandes makes the headline and Arnie Slott is under increasing pressure after a humbling for Liverpool at City and a small matter of PSG looming.

2:31And for City, what might this form mean to the Premier League title race? Joining me to a dissected call, FA Cup winning goalkeeper David James and The Telegraph's Northern football writer Luke Edwards. Good evening, guys. How are we doing? Very good. Very well. David, before we start, I just wanted to say we represented five-eighths of the teams in the quarterfinals, but only one win of the tournament between us, which is, of course, yourself with Portsmouth. And I've done a little digging. I just wanted to ask, where in the tournament did you think that within the Cup that you're thinking, actually, this could be our year?

3:10Well, I think it's quite apt, actually, this round. We drew Manchester United, where we thought we were out, because it was Manchester United, Ronaldo, Rooney and everyone. It was Old Trafford, the only Premier League side that we played in the tournament. We had a bit of fortune, I think it's fair to say, during the game, with Rio being sent off. I think they had three keepers play that day, Manchester United. When we beat them, we then became the favourites because we were the only Premier League side left in. The two trips to Wembley and lifting the trophy, yeah, so effectively this round. But it's quite easy when there's only four teams left in to think that you might win it.

3:41You might have a chance. What's your best memory, Rob? David was going to ask you back. I'm going to ask you. What was your best FA Cup memory? You know what? I had so many bad FA Cup memories in there. There was so few good ones that actually the furthest I got was the quarterfinal. At Stoke, the kit man forgot half our kit. I saved the penalty and we still lost. So that was, yeah. As cups go, you kind of feel like when people prioritise the FA Cup or the Premier League or whatever their priorities are. And you think, I just wish I'd have had one final, one walkout at Wembley at a final. I had playoff finals, obviously playing for England.

4:19That one, go out for a semi-final or a final just in the FA Cup or a League Cup would have been magical, but it wasn't to be. And I want to end to the quarterfinals. We've just had West Ham score twice in added time to send the game to extra time at 2-all against Leeds United. They then have two goals disallowed in extra time and Leeds had two cleared off the line. Then 20-year-old Finlay Herrick comes on for his West Ham debut in the final stages of the penalty shootout and saves his first one. But it wasn't enough as Leeds go through on penalties in what was a proper classic cup ties. And it's been a remarkable season for Daniel Farker.

5:05But he's facing something that, you know, he was facing the sack before even taking over a game. And now they are. He's a game away from being the second man ever to take Leeds to an FA Cup final. Quite the story for Daniel Farkaloo. Yeah, remarkable. About who's had the better season of the two promoted sides now. You've got Sunderland, who've obviously done better in the league. They're beating their local rivals, Newcastle, twice in the same season. A lot of joy there, a lot of happiness. but Leeds are sort of flown under the radar a little bit and if there's one huge setback of Sunderland season it was losing to Port Vale in the FA Cup because they should have been in the quarterfinal now Leeds have had that absolute well they won it once threw it away and then had to win it again on penalties basically didn't they they were 2-0 up going into injury time so yeah I think it's great and it's great for a club like Leeds that it's got this progress in the Cup as well they've still got a lot to fight for in the league they're still not out of danger down at the bottom of the table but this is what football is all about I mean, again, talking about memories, the fans who watched them beat West Ham today in the quarterfinal will always remember it.

6:11They'll remember it more than a midweek game against Burnley in the Championship or indeed in the Premier League. And they've done it and they're going to Wembley and it's the first time for 36 years they've played in an FA Cup semifinal. It's certainly more than 30 years. It's a long, long time. Well, that matters. 1987. When I had hair. Fine header hair, actually. Blonde, curly, lovely. But yeah, it's great for them. And I think it's brilliant for Leeds that, again, not only have they done well in the league and they've got a really holistic chance of staying up, they've now got this excitement and this joy of going to Wembley in the FA Cup.

6:49And Daniel Farker's brought them that. A manager who, as you said, Rob, start of the season, there was speculation about him losing his job. That intensified again in the autumn when they're on a miserable run. And then they went, I think they beat Chelsea, didn't they? And that was the turnaround. round. So he's one of the managers of the season for me, Daniel Farker. And I hope if there's any team as a neutral, as any team I want to win the FA Cup this season, just because what it will mean for the city, it's Leeds United. Not if they get Southampton in the semis. You'll be wanting Southampton all the way.

7:18Just to knock David James. Joe, you look at that and I touched on it there that you you're saying it was almost in the bag for Leeds it was a real roller coaster in that regard where would you feel West Ham are with that now in regards to their season where are Leeds in regards to their season they've both got this priority while we say priority is it a priority of staying in the Premier League it is for West Ham now obviously but are you taking that FA Cup memory of yours over over survival or are you are you thinking no I just give me the Premier League Rob I mean I lost lost three FA Cup finals and you can't I didn't want to mention those I just wanted to stay on the focus on the positives David well Rob to be fair if I didn't want it then I wouldn't even talk about them yeah um the I disagree slightly with Luke there are those midweek games which for some fans are the best games in the world and they they might not mean anything to most people um but the the cup does have that lure and that magnetism towards it where you just the moments are created as a Luton town supporter you know I'd go and watch Luton play in the FA Cup Millwall interestingly with their their season they're having wasn't particularly wasn't a good game it wasn't a good day at all but it's one of those memories that I have getting electrocuted as a kid when I was cutting grass to pay for my goalie gloves this is always the the wonderful battle about football itself we just mentioned Portvale there I think there's an ironic twist to Portvale if they were to get relegated because the 600 ,000 would actually be worth more in a lower league, lower division than it would be in the league they're in at the moment.

8:57But the battle between the clubs needing the finances and the fans needing the memories. So if West Ham, I mean, for West Ham it won't work well because obviously if they go down and get knocked out, as they have done today, then it's a double whammy of negativity, if you like. For Leeds, if they were somehow to get drawn back in and get relegated but end up playing in a cup final, there's a part where fans will remember the cup final definitely more than not getting to a cup final and just surviving on the last day if that makes sense so that's what the cup brings to it and i don't know it's more than a cliche isn't it that the cup is magical because it brings this to everyone and it starts at the grassroots as i say goes all the way to the final so for me as a player i always remember the fa cup games maybe because i didn't win the league maybe maybe survival was down a really bad season and when When you look at it analytically, you go, if I'd have made a few more saves here, done a few things better there, we'd have been mid-table.

9:52Actually, having said that, if you survive with a couple of games to go, it does feel good rather than finishing mid-table. And you know that you're not going to get anything out of the season with a month to go. Right, let's talk Southampton. The spirit of 76 for the Saints. They wore yellow kits yesterday, as they have done in all their FA Cup games, commemorating that win over Manchester United 50 years ago. and they did it again. Second tier beats top. And Luke, they deserved it, didn't they? It was a fantastic win. Absolutely, they did. I thought they were fantastic. And they were always dangerous.

10:29It's one of those ones when you look at the game beforehand, you think Arsenal, Southampton, you think even when the draw's made, you think it's a nice, kind draw for Arsenal, come back after the international break, potentially with the Carabao Cup in their back pocket as well. But Southampton, I think that made it 15 games unbeaten. and they've been absolutely flying in the championship and they played like a team that was if this makes sense that were used to winning that were you know they just had that invisible ingredient of belief and they they showed Arsenal the right amount of respect but they also went out there to try and hurt them and I think they just caught Arsenal a little bit by surprise I thought Arsenal were really poor but I thought the Southampton game plan the way they sort of invited them onto them and then punished them in transitions really really quick it's not a genius game plan.

11:15It's one that lower league clubs or lesser clubs will always try and deploy against the supposedly superior teams, but they just did it brilliantly. I thought they were absolutely worth the win. It is funny, isn't it, when you're talking about David's FA Cup experiences there. Southampton is a club that has never forgotten that 1976 triumph. They're kind of legends of the football club and Hall of Famers. and 50 years on, you just wonder, is their name on the cup? Are they going to repeat it? So I thought they were absolutely brilliant, but I wasn't. Okay, David, don't be a dream killer. Okay, all right, we'll get on into it later.

11:54So Manchester City are still in the FA Cup. So yeah, they're probably not going to win it. But it was a great day for them and they took it really seriously as well. Even though they're going for a promotion in the championship, they showed the competition and they were brave and they had endeavour. And I was just really, really impressed with them from start to finish. Go on there, David. They've beaten the best. They've beaten Arsenal. Why not? Yeah, David. Why not? I mean, I've got a lot of ambivalence towards it because I love the magic of the cup and I love the underdog beating the top team.

12:24But it is Southampton and all my Portsmouth friends would hate me if I said anything too nice about Southampton. Oh, right. Okay. Okay. Now it comes out. Now we get the real reasons, Rob. Okay. And when Portsmouth met... Yeah, but Portsmouth met Southampton in 2010 in the FA Cup and we smashed them at their place. So that's good. But I think what we saw yesterday, and it was interesting when you talk about it, Luke, there is this bit that if you're the inferior team, even if you like playing good football and you come up against a superior team who are better at it, you get these lower teams that think, oh, yeah, we can do it and show everyone how good we are.

13:02And then they get beat. And then you think, why don't we do something different? What I saw yesterday, which really impressed me, and the shades of the England-Japan game. What Southampton did, they didn't give Arsenal much time. Ironically, they let Dalman have the ball quite a lot, but they just harried them and harried them and harried them, forced them into mistakes. The long ball over the top was always on. That was almost like a lower league culture, but that's become more au fait, hasn't it, this season anyway. So I just think that they knew what they were good at and they did that perfectly.

13:36It looked planned and it looked excellent. And for Arsenal, I mean, a lot of changes. But I think people have been saying about Arsenal, especially in these cup runs where they've made changes and won games, it's because they've got the strength in depth. I just think they came up against a tremendously organised side with players playing at the top of the game and thoroughly deserved to win it. You touched on it there about the organisation. And you talked about when you played at Old Trafford to win in that round of the FA Cup. and it was kind of draw parallels in some respects because you're there knowing that you're going to be the underdog.

14:09You're going to get a bit of a beating and at times be under pressure. Southampton, you have to give them credit, sort of that 15-minute spell where Arsenal brought on the subs and they felt like they changed the game, then they scored. They went again, Southampton. Is there moments, do you go back to during that game against Manchester United or any other time when you've been the underdog where you feel like there's a moment there you go, right now the game is ours this is it or is it just a case of just ticking off the minutes ticking off the the moments I used to do it in five minute cycles go right okay between now and five minutes don't go one down right we're we're part way in is there moments in there in the game where you felt that you looked at and said this is our time yeah after Sully Montari scored the penalty apart from scoring the winner yeah but I don't know Rob I mean one of my my favorite anecdotes is um is when harry redknapp came in at the changing room with the uh with the team sheet the manchester united team sheet and you know harry well he's got this mannerism when he's a little bit stressed and that mannerism was at its peak as he was naming out this this starting lineup and for two minutes it was like this is their best team literally their best team then two minutes later it's like well actually they're paying us respect here because had sir alex ferguson played a couple of youngsters then we'd have thought you think you're going to win this similar to what Southampton possibly had yesterday.

15:29But we got battered, absolutely battered. I mean, we had goal line clearances, you know, blocks, everything in order to stay in the game. And it was just, I tried an NFL rugby punt down the field, which we took advantage of Nico Cranchard knocking the ball inside for Barros to go around Kuzak to give away the penalty. And in that moment, it was like, hang on a minute, we've got a chance. When Preston and I was thinking, oh no, we've got a replay, this game was like, hang on a minute, we might even get a replay until that moment and when Rio put the shirt on I'm trying to think if you've ever seen Rio in goal in any of those England squads because I can't remember him ever going in goal had Wazza gone in goal I'd have thought hang on a minute this lad likes playing in goal um I was thinking Rio if you save this I'm gonna hate you and he died the right way got nowhere near it but it wasn't until the goal went in then you're defending the lead then you think if we can hold on for the next five minutes then we can actually get ourselves through so I I don't think there was any moment where we're thinking, OK, yeah, we'll get a spell because I don't think we did up until that penalty.

16:32Looking at Tonda Eckhart and the organisation that he's brought into that side, it's an incredible story for him. No one had really heard of him when he came to take over. He was put in his temporary charge. I was at his first game at Loftus Road. There was a lot of voices, a lot of names being bandied around by a lot of people. None of them were Tonda Eckhart. and he was an analyst for the German national team at the Euros in 2012 and 2014. And he, well, obviously his analysis knows how to pick apart a side, pick apart the opposition, then put into practice. It came into perfect fruition last night, Luke.

17:13It did. And he has got that really interesting background. I'm glad you touched on that, Rob, because he came from that analytical sort of sphere. So he had a pretty, I don't think you'd mind me saying, a pretty average playing career. I think he only played amateur football and then got involved with the analyst side of things as part of the 2012 World Cup, wasn't it? It was 2012 Euros and then the World Cup the following year. And then sort of came over to England. English football was the assistant manager of Barnsley. So he's come from a different strand. And I think we are seeing more and more of this in modern management, actually.

17:46Kim Helberg at Middlesbrough is another one who, very average playing career, but really focused on the coaching side of things from a really young age. And also that use of data and analytics. It's more coming into football, but it's all very well been good at analysing a game. You two are former players. You know this. You could have a guy who can break down football tactically, analyse the opposition, identify the weaknesses. But to be successful, you've got to have those people skills as well. You've got to be a leader of men. You've got to be a man manager. You've got to be able to transmit your ideas on the training pitch.

18:21So you can have the best football brain in the world and still not be a good manager. But he's obviously brought in working with younger players as well and that more holistic approach. He inherited a bit of a mess at Southampton. It didn't go well for Will Steele. But if you look at the most formed teams in the country, Southampton are that, and they have been doing this in the Championship under his leadership. And they've now done it on a bigger stage in front of a national and a global audience. And certainly it looks like an inspired choice for them as manager. And it does fascinate me whether we are going to get more managers coming through from this sort of school where they start in analytics, where they start in data and then go on to management.

18:59But he's obviously got the whole package and he's done a wonderful, wonderful job at Southampton. And they will be the team. I know they're just outside of the playoffs now, but they will be the team that everybody wants to avoid in the championship playoffs as well. Well, I think it's interesting listening to Luke there talking about analytics. I mean, probably the best exam, not in management, but in building teams, recruitment and all that stuff would be Michael Edwards of Liverpool, because I think there is some synergy here. He was our analyst at Portsmouth and sat down having a conversation with him.

19:29It was like, you know more about the game than a lot of the coaches. So that kind of understanding, if you're speaking to the right players, then they will get you straight away. And the young players nowadays, they should, if they don't already, have a proper understanding of what analytics is. But playing PlayStations, things like that, it all comes up in the games they play if they're that type. Or if they want to know how they're performing, then the data stream will give them that kind of information. So if you can, like Luke said, if you've got the ability to actually convey your thoughts in a right way and lead people by doing it, the players should be receptive to that.

20:08With my thing, yeah, I mean, it was, as you know, Robin, there was an era where it was kind of, you kick the ball, he'll let it, and then they'll try and score from that type of aspect to it. Where myself in management and in coaching, I've got much more into the analytical side of stuff. Players can't escape their data. My favourite saying is players can't escape themselves when essentially data is describing what that player will do. You have to have people skills, David, don't you? As a manager, you have to have people skills. Without information, it's fine. But you've got to be able to relate to the players.

20:42You've got to be able to inspire them. You've got to be able to do all that side of stuff as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I totally agree. But at the same time, it's not just him on his own. You have a team of people around you. And where you might be lacking in certain aspects, and that might be people skills, then you get people around you who've got those skills, just so the whole team works better. I think that's the key thing to it. But play it, I mean, kids nowadays, and I say to parents quite often, if a 10-year-old kicks a ball straight, someone knows about it because there will be people collecting this kind of information.

21:13So if you don't understand data, then your days in football are numbered. Well, it was a wonderful evening for Southampton, a difficult one for Arsenal. And added to the Carabao Cup final defeat, they have now lost back-to-back games for the first time this season. That sounds incredible. It sounds like a wonderful stat just to back them to say what a great season they've had. But it's come at a really difficult time. And the quadruple has gone. The treble talk has now gone. And it's now just the Premier League and the Champions League. I say just. That still would be a wonderful season. Now, Luke, is this beginning the start of a full slide?

21:52This is the narrative that Arsenal fans have been trying to avoid, isn't it? It is. and I've stuck with them all season, Rob. I've said they're not going to buckle. I've said that every test they've had, they've ticked off the boxes gradually. They've had setbacks before this season and bounced back from them really, really well. But this is the crunch time. This is the running. We've seen football clubs throw away big leagues at this time before in the season. There's been famous ones in the past. Off the top of my head, there was the Newcastle and Manchester United. Oh, I'm glad you said that.

22:25I'm glad you said that. and whether they like it or not, Arsenal are the Newcastle in this race to an extent because they haven't won it for so long. They've got all that pressure of history and they've had those, they've had those, there'll be little nagging voices of doubt now, but I think they'll be, they've lost back-to-back games. Just little ones. I think they'll just be little ones at the moment because the league position is still good. It is still very much in their hands. They have come back from adversity and disappointments already this season, but it's a really perilous moment for them.

22:56Really, really perilous because that's two bad results in a row. As you say, two trophies gone up in smoke. The quadruple dream has died. And all of those people who, and I've said it from day one, there are a lot of people out there, for some reason, I'm not entirely sure what it is. I've never been able to quite put my finger on it. They want Mikel Arteta and Arsenal to fail. They want them to fall flat on their faces. And those people will be dancing in glee at the moment in terms of what has happened. They've got to come out and they've got, only they can answer those questions. They are still in the dominant position in the league.

23:27It's still in their hands. The Premier League is there to be won. It can still be an incredible, remarkable season. But you now, you're probably right, Rob, those little tiny voices, maybe they've got a little bit louder. And I think it'll be absolutely fascinating to see how they respond in the league now. David, I want to take you in the dressing room and put yourself in the position of being one of the players there. And it's a really interesting dynamic now of season-defining defeats. They are season-defining because they're not going for the quadruple. They are going for the double. Now, if you're in that dressing room, and there's twofold here, you're one of the players who's part of the strongest XI, who will be playing from now on.

24:08And then you've got the players, maybe a Kepa, maybe a Norgard, who will have been playing in the Cups. And they've effectively ended their season with these defeats. Where are you picking the players up? are you picking the players up who are the ones in the team or the ones that are part of the squad? And you're saying you've still got a part to play. And how do you pick them up? It's a great question, Rob, because, and Luke, I think you've heard this from me earlier on in the season. Arteta's problem was always going to be the big games, because then you had to decide who you think is big enough to win those big games.

24:44And as we see with the Carabao Cup final, you know that that's the biggest of four games that arsenal could have possibly faced this season um and the team wasn't good enough uh yesterday wasn't the final so therefore that it wasn't necessarily the the the strongest side that he was going to put out anyway um but i think it all depends and it's easy for us to see here and i try to get the quadruple shout in as early as i could to try and put a bit more pressure on them um because but i mean if they're good enough they'll do it so why are you putting pressure on them david why do you want to put pressure see you're one of those people i'm talking about you're one of those people who wants michael arteta and arsenal to fall flat on their face aren't you i didn't say he's ticking the list off here we've gone southampton we now want to arsenal that's yeah exactly take them all out one by one isn't it right you know what so many clubs that anyone he hasn't played for he wants to fail yeah well i used to sport arsenal for a couple of games um anyway the the point is I think, and I think this is possible, and if the truth be told, I think there's a part of people, and I include myself obviously in this, where you didn't do what they could do, you want to make sure that if they're good enough to do it, they do it under whatever the pressure is.

25:57So, you know, they were in a position where they were flying. And I think it was easy, Luke, and I think you vouched for this as well. The Arsenal were playing that well. It was difficult to see where they couldn't win a quadruple. I never said quadruple, David. I never said quadruple. No, no, no, I'm not saying you... I said league. I said they'll win the league. I'm not saying you agreed with me in the sense that I thought they would win a quadruple, but there was a bit where you're going to argue they're going to lose it. And if you think about Liverpool, was it three years ago, three years ago, where they were on for the quadruple themselves?

26:26Yeah, that's right. Albeit meaning to beat the seat last game of the season. The games fell in the wrong order for Liverpool because their successes came first and then they had to play the last league game, which wasn't the one that they were in favourites to win. obviously Man City win that then they go to the Champions League finally lose that as well so it was kind of like the wrong order for them whereas Arsenal in a way has kind of possibly gone in the right order obviously depending on how they get on in the Champions League if they weren't thinking about a quadruple and Mikel Arsena said at the beginning of the season look our main priority is winning the Premier League if we can win something else as well then we'll be more than happy and they found themselves in a situation where all of a sudden we could win four here but this isn't our priority and it's not that they don't try and win them Don't get me wrong, because I think that gets mistaken as well.

27:10But if they're – and I'm looking out in the garden at the moment as the flowers are starting to bloom. If you're a king gardener, you're going to have to cut a few roseheads off just to make sure that this rosebush looks the best it can be. And perhaps losing in the Carabao Cup final and being knocked out of the FA Cup was more of Mikel Arteta's – not intentionally, but the end picture. Lesser of two evils. Yes, absolutely. So I don't know if they're, and going back to Rob's question, because it seemed a long time ago, the players in there, if they've been sold the right story, then they're not in a bad position like some would say they are right now.