Man City guilty of 114 charges - 5 Live Reaction

28:00And I think it is, it's obviously as it stands, a defeat for City and a pretty resounding one. But I don't think this is anything like a victory for the Premier League. This whole case, I think, has been one that the Premier League can only really lose. They lose every single which way, and they've done the right thing by pursuing it, it would appear, because it seems as though an independent panel has found that they had cause to pursue it. But the consequences for them are pretty severe, and I think that's the other thing that's really unprecedented, is we don't really know how that plays out in what I'm going to have to call the court of public opinion.

28:34How do fans react to it? What does it mean for our relationship with the Premier League? That's really significant. And actually, Stefan, those financial incentives that are there run all the way through the league, don't they? Yes, there will be those commercial deals for if you qualify for Champions League or Europa League. But bearing in mind, every position has a cash prize put on it. You can see why the all hell could break loose phrase is apt. Yeah, I mean, I've been using the phrase really since the start of the case because I think it is apt. And I agree with everything Rory said. we are now in uncharted territory.

29:17And I agree with Rory that the Premier League, it is positive that their governance procedures and desire to punish wrongdoing appears to have been vindicated. But the fallout is enormous. And you're talking about places in the league, but it's even beyond that. There's players' bonuses. There's even player salaries in given seasons that can change on the basis of whether you qualify for the Champions League or not. A number of players will have a 20 % to 25 % increase based on whether they're in the Champions League. That's been lost. There's managers that have lost bonuses. There's players that have lost bonuses.

29:53There's a whole raft of consequential losses that may be said to have been caused by City's breaches. To try and unravel it within the league's structures is incredibly difficult. settling it which was a suggestion that some people have made i think maybe david suggested that that's something that's ongoing i think in terms of city's position that looks unlikely if after appeal city are in a situation where they can't overturn the decision then they may well look to do effectively some sort of group settlement with a number of clubs based on certain metrics. If not, we are going to be in a period where clubs are not fighting each other but are going after Manchester City for financial losses that will run into the tens of millions of pounds in all likelihood.

30:48And it's not even ambulance chasers that are running that. It's some of the best firms in the country. So it's very, very serious. And all of those phrases, hell breaking loose, hornet's nest, All the things that David and Rory have used are correct. Would you seriously think about whether to appeal or not then, Stefan? I had somebody text me this evening who works in football saying, if I were them, I wouldn't appeal, they said to me. The anger will just grow and likely result in a greater sanction. Well, yeah, look, the starting point is that this is going to be six or 700 pages or that sort of length of an independent commission being scathing about the behaviour of Manchester City over a decade.

31:37And they're going to have to make findings against individuals where they say they did not believe the evidence that they gave. They're going to say that they don't believe the documents that Manchester City presented as this so-called irrefutable evidence. So they are going to go very, very hard on Manchester City. They're going to go very hard on Manchester City in the next part of the process and their findings of fact i.e. those things that they believe happened having heard the evidence over 12 weeks will be very very hard to overturn at appeal but City in their announcement tonight in the statement that they gave I think to the Athletic or possibly more widely have suggested that perhaps they're going to try and push around the idea that maybe the panel wasn't impartial or maybe it was biased or or that type of argument.

32:28Those types of arguments are extremely unlikely to succeed. They have been run by other clubs. They usually fail. I would expect them to fail here. And that then means that you're left with a situation where it's very hard to challenge the factual findings, but also it's hard to challenge the independence of the panel. So, yes, it makes sense not to appeal, but I'm sure City are going to appeal. And Rory, just let me read that phrase again then, Rory, and then you come in. The club, this is from Manchester City, the club has diligently respected due process for eight years on the basis that the Premier League board and executive would behave as an independent, impartial and fair-minded regulator free from partisan influence.

33:16Yeah, and Stefan's reading of that is the same as mine. It feels a little bit like a kind of, what's the equivalent of like in a movie where someone opens their coat and just shows you that they might have something underneath it. It feels like it's got very much that sort of tone. I think there is no world in which Manchester City cannot appeal for as long as it is possible to appeal because not only have they, throughout this process, strenuously, which is the word that... They've done a real job for the word strenuously in the last three and a half years of City. They have strenuously denied the allegations, they maintain their innocence, etc.

33:51But also the nature of the City project, cannot tolerate that sort of stain. Regardless of where you stand on the nature of Man City's ownership, it has a kind of a public image sphere to it, an element of public imagery to it, that is not true, say, of a random hedge fund buying a club or whatever. You can think of those two that are the same thing, that's fine. But for the owners of Manchester City to have to deal with the reputational damage of even accepting a£1 fine for cheating is too much to bear. They will pursue it. I think Dale said earlier that we're not... We might not even be halfway through this process, is the reality of it.

34:34They will appeal it for as long as they can appeal it, just because whatever the punishment is, and the punishment might be incredibly severe and really swinging and hugely damaging to City and to English football as a whole, but the reputational damage is something they cannot tolerate. So they will appeal it, I think. I'd expect them to appeal it for as long as they can possibly appeal it. Rory Smith from The Observer, Stefan Borson, football financial expert, and Dale Johnson from BBC Sport are with us. Sam Lee, Manchester City correspondent from The Athletic, joins us now. Quiet day? It got progressively more serious, I would say.

35:12Yeah, went to bed knowing, oh, this could come out, And then by lunchtime, it was like, yeah, this is too legit for it to be another false dawn. And then over the next couple of hours, it's like, oh, oh, this is this is very bad. This is very bad. I'm very serious. So, yeah. Is that the sense you are getting from your city contact?

35:36Not really, because up until I would say the last hour or so, they haven't communicated downwards. I think the amount of people, the circle of trust at City, the amount of people who knew this was happening was extremely small. We're talking about the very, very top of the club. Obviously, they've got lots and lots of employees lower down, but I think there's even quite senior employees, not necessarily household names, but senior employees who weren't in the loop on it. And I think that may only be changing kind of as we speak or in the last hour or so. So it was very much external from that, really.

36:12All right. And from your discussions with them over the years, and this has been going on years, what did they have in place for if this was going to go the way it has today? Even though they were firmly of the belief that it wasn't going to go this way, as we understand it. Yeah, well, it's interesting because on the one hand, a few weeks after the hearing finished, which was December 2024, so then a few weeks after that in January 2025, Haaland signed that nine and a half year contract. That month, they spent about 175 million on new players because that was when their season was really kind of falling off a cliff.

36:53And so they had to kind of inject funds. So then publicly, it's like, well, this seems like they're very confident and the world's not going to end. And then it's all gone on for so long, you forget. And they spend more money in the summer to rebuild the squad because players have left and all this kind of thing. And Guardiola's left and new managers come in. But behind the scenes, I know last year they wanted to reduce the wage bill. When De Bruyne left and Gundogan left and Edison left, they didn't want to refill the wage bill, as it were, when those big earners left. like budgets behind the scenes I don't know if they were cut but they certainly shrank it's not like there's always loads of money in every department but they're obviously a very wealthy club but suddenly they were kind of cutting their cloth a bit more accordingly which I suppose you could read into was them just preparing for an eventuality I want to say like this but it just seems so much more serious than any of us ever imagined and it does I know like Rory said like City have strenuously denied this, but also the way that they got the Champions League ban overturned.

38:02Do you remember that Friday night in February 2020 when they got banned from the Champions League and everyone was carrying on exactly like this? The world's ending. They're definitely guilty. They throw them out. And over the next few days, City were like, hold on a minute, we're going to appeal this. Guardiola did a press conference and suddenly it's like, oh, maybe they're OK. And then, you know, in July or whenever it was, they overturned it. Maybe the way that that went does marry up with how much they've strenuously denied it over the years. And yeah, I think they have been preparing because they're not stupid.

38:33They are like a very clever business, but I don't know if they ever saw something of this magnitude coming. What do you think it means, even before we get to an appeal, what do you think this decision, these decisions mean in terms of City's relationship with the Premier League, relationship maybe with some of the other clubs. I mean, as we've highlighted, the last line of their statement today shows the path they could well be taking. Yeah, there's definitely a lot to read between those lines. And yeah, I'm of the same opinion. They seem to be claiming that they've acted properly and maybe the others haven't.

39:18The more you think about it, the more you talk about it, the bigger it gets it's like a bottomless pit of hell basically which is your social media clip That's a phrase that hasn't been used yet so we'll add that to our list bottomless pit of hell Like Stefan was saying does Marcus Rashford sue because his earnings didn't go up because of the years they weren't in the Champions League which it could be argued because of City. It just gets bigger and bigger like how far does it want to go do Emirates at Arsenal sue because the value of their sponsorship is somehow diminished in a way that they could possibly argue.

39:55In terms of the relationship with the Premier League, the other clubs especially, I think they'll just be absolutely delighted about this. It'll be interesting to see how they all sit around the same boardroom table. But I think just the atmosphere of Premier League games is just going to be toxic. All of them. The Manchester derby in January, I think it was just because City had signed maybe Mark Gehi a couple of days before that for a lot of money and a lot of wages. And I think that kind of stoked up the United fan sentiment of, hold on a minute, you've got these charges hanging over you. What's going on?

40:26You're buying these players. And there was a real edge in the stadium that day. Like, we know what you are, those kind of chants. There was a real edge to it that day. And there was a little bit, well, there's quite a bit of it in the derby just gone as well. But I think it's not just going to be United. It's not just going to be the rivals. It's going to be everywhere. City going to Liverpool next. I was going to say, their first away game, that's the first game after, when's this? 11th of October, the first game after the international break is Liverpool away. And with a lot of things in football, in life, the 11th of October sounds quite far away.

41:04Things can blow over. This isn't going to blow over. It just isn't. It's going to hang around. and yeah they are obviously in a very difficult position for the reasons outlined over the last 15 minutes or so dare I say longer but like you know I mentioned Guardiola came out and did the press conference he did a few of those over the years and he'd always be like a good voice for the club and fight the corner and he would even if he didn't agree with him he put out a different perspective they don't really have that spokesperson anymore I don't know who would go into bat in this situation you know this is obviously a strategy they're going to have to work out is that going to be Khaldun Al Mubarak, the chairman, who comes and does that?

41:39Is it going to be Farran Soriano? Can they leave it to Enzo Marescu? I don't really think so. But in terms of the relationship with the Premier League, as long as they're in it, because again, that's on the table. It's incredibly difficult and fans from other clubs, they're not going to let it go. And fans will do that within stadiums. We know that. And as you say, it will increase that animosity. Do you think it will affect City commercially? Again, this is one of those things. We realise how enormous this is, but I don't think we can fully grasp the enormity of it because it's not just, oh, maybe they have been found guilty of this, which we didn't necessarily think was going to happen.

42:21And so what does that mean? Does that mean that it's not just a sporting sanction, but it goes beyond that to the process of doing their accounts and corporate fraud and this kind of thing? And then as Rory was mentioning with the ownership, you know, does that affect like the value of the project, the value of their kind of asset in Abu Dhabi? And then does that affect their ability to bring in sponsors, but not just from them, but the ones around the world? They did a sponsorship deal with Kellogg's recently. And it's like a major British institution is going to want to be involved with this now because, you know, if it does keep going down this line and there's statements coming out confirming the cheating, if, like Stefan said before, the 700 words like slamming cities' conduct during the hearing and for the last 10, 15 years, that's going to really, really tarnish them.

43:14and it's definitely easy to imagine without being able to grasp the full enormity of it. It's definitely easy to imagine companies thinking, we might not want you to put us around your hoardings on the front of the shirt. Rory, it looked like you were coming in. I was just wondering whether Kellogg's is British or American. I assumed it was American, but I might be wrong. Yeah, it's American. I just always drive past the big factory in Manchester. It just feels very, very... Globalisation sounds terrible. No, I think that's right. I think there will be a... Again, presuming that the verdict stands, if it's appealed and the appeal is successful, then that's two minutes, then that changes it.

43:52Although I do wonder whether there's a reputational damage that will last whatever happens from this point on. I think there is probably some sort of reputational blowback for City regardless of what happens. But I think there will be a commercial impact. One thing the Premier League has always been really good at is converting everything into a storyline. it manages to take quite a lot of controversies and make them part of the drama so that we kind of we we can kind of accept it i'm not sure you can do that with this because it does call into question so many kind of so much of the last 15 16 years it does kind of cast a shadow at the very least it does call into question what might be happening what might happen in the years in years to come and the other thing that i think is really important is that you're potentially taking moments away from people that, again, if the verdict stands, you've got to caveat everything, then it's not enough to, you know, if you strip city of the titles, which I don't think is that likely, but you strip city of the titles, even if you were to then give Jose Mourinho his Premier League winner's medal, he doesn't get the moment that he would have had otherwise.

44:59The fans don't get the moment that they would have had otherwise. And that is, that's kind of, not what football should be about. If you speak to Olympians who get their medals 10 years later, your silver medal comes through the post. It's not really what it's meant to be about. And I think that will cast a pall over a lot of things for a long, long time. Do you think the owners would think, what's the point? From a... We've done... And we often say this with City, if you just part one side of it. They've come in, they've regenerated an area, etc. They've done a lot for that part of the city. Do you think they will think, well, what's the point?

45:46Look, I don't know. Again, the more you talk about it, the more you realise the thought of Jose Mourinho's next press conference. Every time you think of something else, it just gets bigger. There's another strand of it you've not realised. In terms of the ownership of Manchester City, will they pull the plug and walk away from it? who knows um but again these are the kind of questions that we can like validly talk about at this point everything is on the table that's how deep it goes it's not just you know will the days of oh maybe they'll just get off with a fine as people would say are long gone now it's will the owners walk out and instinctively i would say no instinctively i would say that defiance will kind of continue and it maybe becomes part of the story, let's say there's relegations, it's like right, well, we're going to come back, we're going to be stronger, we're going to build and we're going to do it this way and we're going to stand by you, maybe that's how they do it but instinctively that's the way I would go but these are the kind of big questions that we're going to have to wrestle with and obviously I've not wrestled with that one quite enough.

46:51Let's talk to a couple of Manchester City fans, Matt Mellor and Peter Clayton are with us, Matt's first City match was at Main Road when he was six years old. Peter is 19, so this era of success is all he's ever known. So sort of two differing experiences of Manchester City over the years. I mean, I hate asking this question, but it's the only one that I can start with, Matt, which is, how are you feeling? After listening to that for the past. Well, I've just, I know, I can't imagine that particularly helped, but I apologise for that. It's not, no, no, I think I need therapy now, chappers. I mean, it's just escalated over the last couple of hours, you know.

47:33We know this has been investigated and it's just so hard as a diehard blue that, like I say, at six years old, was in the kipax at Main Road to seeing the Aguero moments that absolutely changed the way that the Premier League would be won in terms of within those dying minutes, dying seconds, you know, the way that we've had the success. and to sort of think that now, obviously, the decision is made, yet we haven't appealed it, we haven't come out really with a statement yet. There'll be, you know, this club, I just wanted to say, and you alluded to it there, Chapters, before, where you said it has changed the city.

48:13The way that city is run in terms of with the fans, they haven't put up the prices of season tickets. The way that it's very community-focused as well. I do a lot of work in the community and it is superb. the local schools the way it's been run in terms of for the fans and the sheer elation i have seen over the years and experienced that with my dad and those memories i'm sorry and i'll speak for probably other city fans here you can't take them away back in division two when paul dickoff scored and got us up from the second division i was there that day and at one point i was like what is going on here we're throwing it away we came back and nicky weaver was the hero that day paul dickoff as well and you know we we celebrated that success having been in the shadow of our neighbors for so many years and we have gone on and done incredible things in terms of for the premier league the way that Pep Guardiola has inspired other managers to play out from the back the way that we've brought in players that have been incredible and made it we were a team of absolute formidable force and turning over teams because we're playing so well.

49:20Now, if you take away, obviously, how that's happened with regards to this fair play in terms of financial, I still have those memories of just sheer amazement of what I was witnessing. And therefore, sorry, Matt, just to jump in, I was going, no, no, no, no, no. I was just going to say, though, whilst Stefan's point is valid that defiance may not be the best approach when it comes to the corridors of power and actually dealing with this amongst the execs, would, I mean, I think I know the answer to this already, but would you expect your fellow supporters to be defiant here? A hundred and ten percent.

50:04We have a song, we're going down with a billion in the bank. We have all these songs, right? And it's, we will be defiant. We will show if we get those, if we get titles taken off us, point deductions, and we come out of this league, we will fight till the very end. It's one of our sayings, City fight till the end, and the fans will get behind that team. And I can't wait to see Erling Haaland bag a hat-trick against Grimsby or Leicester that season. Like, you know, joking aside, we will stick by our team because this is what it's about. You go through the good times, you go through the hard times, and we have been on such a high over the years.

50:44But if it does turn out how we don't want it to as City fans, I certainly, and I know a lot of my friends who are City fans, will sit by them and we will get back to where we need to be. Now, how does that look for the Premier League? Because, yes, it's going to be very hostile and we have to go to Liverpool, which is never a nice place to go anyway. It's the first away game. But it's going to be very interesting now as how we react. like when it's the Champions League and we boo when the anthem comes on. Well, how are the fans now going to react with the Premier League as well? And I was thinking that, Matt, actually.

51:17I was thinking it's all very well doing it, you know, every sort of three weeks for the Champions League. Then it'll be quite interesting around the Premier League. Peter, all you've known is success, really, as a City fan. So what are you expecting now? I think it's an interesting and a difficult one So we don't know what the punishment will be, right? Like City could end up in the National League, but equally City could stay in the Premier League and it might just be like a slap on the wrist. So I think you can't really answer that question without knowing the punishment. But I think the ownership of almost taking a trade-off, if that makes sense.

51:56So I think if you don't break the rules initially, are City ever in the position we are now? Probably not. And even if, say, City get relegated to League One, League Two, I think the infrastructure's there, like Matt says, that you've got Erling Haaland playing against Grimsby, right? If Haaland leaves, you've got the academy players playing against Grimsby who are brilliant. Right. I think it's inevitable we come back. So in 10 years' time, no matter what happens, I think City are probably in a stronger position than we would have been if you didn't initially break the rules. And obviously, morally, there's issues there.

52:27And you can debate that. It's not right. But these guys only care about winning. And they have won. And I think they'll win more in the future because of what they've done. And therefore, I think you could argue it's a correct decision, despite being morally wrong.

52:44What for you would be an ideal punishment then? Just a financial punishment, Peter? From a perspective of a Man City fan, yeah, that'd be great, right? Because you stay there. But from a perspective of a football fan, like the right thing is probably that man city get pushed down divisions divisions divisions or some sort of punishment that will have a lasting effect because like you could give us a big points deduction right we'll go down to the championship we'll come straight back up and the infrastructure we've built from cheating is still there so we'll be okay and and therefore is any are any of your if if it's if it is proved and you use the word cheating there but if if some of this is proved is any of it tainted for you uh i think from a club perspective right it's got to be slightly tainted no for you is it because you as a fan is it i'd always describe myself as a football fan more than like a club and a culture guy so i'd still see the centurions team for example as the best team of all time because of the footballing level they achieved but i think from a fan and culture perspective like objectively it has to be tainted because you've objectively broke rules to get there.

53:56OK, Peter, thank you. Matt, a final one to you. If this was another club in this situation, what would you want to happen to them? Oh, great question. If we have broken rules, there's going to be consequences and sanctions. And financially, we'll just sell a load more oil, let's be honest, right? Sheik Monser, we'll just pull out the cheque. But if we are removed from the league, we will come back stronger. so I think for another team look at Everton look at Sheffield United you know there were sanctions in place and I think again you just have to if you've done wrongdoing you have to face your consequence and yeah unfortunately you know what will be will be but final point we will fight till the end and also get behind our team because look how we've started this season the Maresca look at the signings the sales that we did and the players that we brought in have been superb and we're really going to give a challenge to Arsenal.

54:57But I'm sure Arteta is sat there with his glass of nice Rioja, sat back, enjoying this, what is unfolding at the moment. Matt, thank you very much. Take care. Matt and Peter, both City fans. I mean, there would be an argument, Sam, that it could fire them up for the rest of the... People keep going, well, what's next? What's next? Actually, for this group of players, you've got nothing to do with what's gone on in the past. that could fire them up. And Maresca. Yeah, I think if Maresca's clever and uses it that way, I genuinely think when the charges came out in February 2023, it did galvanise them and help them win the treble.

55:32I genuinely do believe that. I think it's fairly evident, to be fair. They were in a difficult spot, but it kind of united the team when they needed it. Maybe they do that this time. I hadn't actually thought about them kicking the ball. Yeah, we'll get back to that in a few weeks, I suppose. Sam, thank you for joining us. Sam Lee from The Athletic. Rory, are we still going to be talking about this in two years, if both of us are still contracted at the time? I mean, that's equally a big question. That's a bitter issue, Jeff. I mean, I think there's every chance. Dale, I think, and Stefan as well kind of made the point that we're all guessing to put timeframes on it.

56:10Ideally, no, we wouldn't be, but I think there's a decent chance that, as I say, I think City will appeal it for as long as they can possibly appeal it, and that takes time. The one thing I thought both Peter and Matt were really interested in their perspectives. The one thing that I think is missing, you can't tell fans how to behave, and I'm conscious of, like, Juve, who had titles pulled off them in Italy for Calciopoli, they insist that they are their titles. I can't remember if it's 28 or 30, that their banners in the curvers will have all of those titles on them to insist that they are their titles, like they are contested, effectively.

56:46so that is the nature of fans to as Matt said I think to stick with your team to be defiant well that's what you do that's what you do isn't it it is but I would say and I think that's absolutely right they should whatever happens they should like continue to support Manchester City as vehemently as they always have the people who run the club are not the club I think that is something that is really important to mention that if this is proven people did it Manchester City as an institution didn't do it because Manchester City is a bit like the business itself is run by people it's okay to support your team whilst also directing your ire at the people who have who have damaged that team's name I think that is a difficult thing to internalise and like if the club that I support got done for something I don't know I'd necessarily be able to do it myself but I think it is there is a separation between the club itself and the people who run the club because it's the latter that you can support the team while still criticising the latter.

57:47Sam Lee from The Athletic, Rory Smith from The Observer, thank you very much for being with us.

58:00This is the football story of the century. It's pandemonium, it's ecstasy. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that, they've won it four years running and no one's done that, ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than 100 breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. Hear the in-depth analysis and explanation with football on trial, the Manchester City charges.

58:38Listen on BBC Sounds.

58:46Football finance expert Stefan Borson is still with us Senior football reporter Ian Dennis joins us I've just had a text from a friend of mine A massive football fan That simply says, Ian Your discussion tonight is strangely frightening And I think I know what he means by that well yeah because we still don't know what's going to happen do we and we don't know what the ramifications are going to be uh because it's as you've been talking about for the last hour it is unprecedented you know and i've seen rival supporters on social media call for titles to be stripped but i'm actually not aware of any parallels because when i've heard people mention juventus juventus were actually stripped of the two titles due to match fixing Likewise, Marseille for their title in 92-93.

59:35And then I was actually looking at English clubs who have faced previous punishments for misdemeanours. And two really sprang to mind. Luton Town, who were hit with a record points deduction, 30 points in 08-09, but 10 of those were for making irregular payments and another 20 for failing to satisfy the EFL insolvency rules. And if you recall, Swindon Town, who thought they'd got promoted to the top flight in 1990 were ultimately faced with a one-season demotion for making illegal payments to players. So the sanctions, whenever they are decided, are going to be absolutely fascinating because there is no precedent.

1:00:17Stefan, can I just widen it out? And we've had discussions before about financial fair play, squad cost rules, PSR, UEFA have one ruling, Premier League do something else Rules in the Championship are different to League One which are different to the National League Do you look at it all, given all of your experience and think how has football got itself into this mess? Well, I think there's two things that we need to just understand First of all, that the regulation around the game is probably for the best overall in some form Secondly, the things that City seem to have actually done And the breaches that appear to have been confirmed Are far beyond football regulation Yes, there are consequential breaches And consequential breaches of the PSRs And the licensing regime with UEFA But even if there were no rules You can't go around faking contracts, faking agreements, registering revenue that was never actually generated in your actual accounts.

1:01:36None of those things are permitted, even if you have no football regulation. So I don't think this is this is not about football regulation having gone wrong. wrong this is about wrongdoing by the club of of matters that would be breaches in any scenario and with any set of rules even if there wasn't any at all which which i suppose is similar to i mean again every this is unprecedented but i suppose is similar to what chelsea did then in that they were clear they were clear breaking of regulations yeah yeah but the the and the difference here and And the reason why it's likely to be approached in a more severe way is because Chelsea admitted it.

1:02:19Now, there may be circumstances why it was sensible for Chelsea to admit it, largely because they bought the business with that in mind. They bought it with the benefits of£150 million of effectively underwritten losses. So they were less worried about the consequences. But the fact of the matter is City have denied this stuff for a generation, frankly, and have gone through a process that's ended up costing, let's say,£100 million against the Premier League. They've denied, denied, denied. They presumably have put witnesses up in the hearing itself who have said things that this independent commission have not believed.

1:03:00They believe them to have been less than credible. And that's putting it nicely. So this is much worse than the Chelsea situation, not because the underlying matters are not similar, because they are. Because if you read the Premier League's sanction agreement with Chelsea, it talks about deception. It talks about concealment. It talks about literally sham agreements. So the underlying matters, yes, they're the same, but City haven't admitted it. City have denied and denied and denied. and that means when it goes to a sanctioned hearing they're going to be in a far worse position because they don't have any mitigation and they do have a lot of aggravating factors that the Premier League are going to have to push in front of the Independent Commission and say therefore City should be very heavily and severely punished.

1:03:48Stefan, could I ask you a question please? Because of the 115 charges seven are for breaching the Premier League's PSR and I've seen this argument from Everton supporters on social media that they've pointed out that why did they get points deducted immediately yet City go to appeal because in 23-24 both Everton and Forrest were hit with points deduction Everton 10 points reduced to six on appeal a further two points on a second charge Forrest deducted the four points and I think many supporters will be asking where is the consistency yeah well there's the first thing is Everton admitted the breaches so that's us that's a different straight away um so the question of the breach wasn't in question by the end of it and the same with Nottingham Forest the question was about the scale of the sanction um it will be a reason in which when we go to the next stage that the Premier League probably will say that it's not right that City get the opportunity to appeal the sanction sorry the liability i.e.

1:04:51whether they did it first and wait for the punishment down the road. And that actually, in the same way that you just explained that the sanction hearing should occur, the punishment should be put in place. There may well be an asterisk that says we are going through the appeals process in the same way that occurred with the other clubs. So that may well be an argument. But we shouldn't sort of confuse the number of breaches with the other cases. I think 115 and the sort of each individual charge really hides a number of different categories of charge. I doubt that City actually have literally been found to have breached 114 of the 115.

1:05:36I suspect that what's happened is one of the areas and probably one of the less significant areas, that hasn't been proved, but actually the bulk of it has been proved. But the bulk of the punishment is going to come from two areas. One, it will be the material sponsorship exaggerations or potentially sham contracts. And secondly, from the fundamental breaches of PSR, which has been seen in football regulation to be the most serious thing. And each of those individually will have to lead to points deductions in the way that that has operated historically. On that first one, Stefan, on the sponsorship deals and so on and so forth, as things stand, if there wasn't an appeal, but if Manchester City are found guilty, is this a victory for, and this is what some people will say, a victory for the traditional old big clubs who the perception is have done everything in their power to stop the clubs with new money being successful.

1:06:48And I'm sure Newcastle may feel that, Villa may feel that, Chelsea have felt that in the past, although they got a lot through before rules were changed. Is that how it will be perceived, do you think? Well, City might try and push that argument. I think the reality is it's not acceptable. If this is what has happened, it's not acceptable to go round effectively creating contracts that are put in place purely as an artificial mechanism to move money around. I mean, that's just not the way things are done. It's not acceptable. And whether you like the rules or not, those are the rules. So would it be a victory for the other clubs in terms of putting in place restrictions?

1:07:30Well, potentially, but I think it's largely beside the point because City shouldn't have done it if they have done it and shouldn't have been effectively denied it all this way. They should have found a way to hold their hands up at some point in the past, if that was the case. Look, we are slightly in the dark because we haven't got the actual decision and we don't actually know what the findings are. But if it is as bad as we think, I think arguments about, well, we didn't like the rules, I think they're poor arguments. You know, ultimately, the Premier League rules are agreed by the Premier League clubs.

1:08:04and you might like them or you might not, but you have to adhere to them and that's just the way it works. Let's bring in a couple of other fans of other clubs here. So Neil Atkinson from the Anfield Wrap, from a Liverpool perspective, Scott Saunders from the Promised Land podcast, from a Manchester United perspective. We talked earlier, Neil, about City's next game is the 11th of October at Anfield. Will it crank that atmosphere up even more? I suspect it will, but there's tons and tons of oddities here, aren't there? I think the wider sort of context, of course, that atmosphere would be up anyway, but it'll be up even more off the back of this.

1:08:47But the strangeness of it is we are dealing with the sides who are where they are because of what they built during this period that's been now from the sound of things. And I think Stefan's tone there was absolutely spot on in a number of different ways, by the way. and I think it's worthy of that being acknowledged by someone who's not from the City of Manchester. His tone there about what's acceptable and what's not acceptable is absolutely spot on. Also, you know, within that, I think that the idea of where there is or isn't or can or can't be good faith is massive here. And for me, this isn't a matter of points deductions.

1:09:20For me, this is a matter of expulsion. Manchester City don't look as though they can be treated as a good faith partner within the Premier League. And the oddity is Manchester City could beat Liverpool at Anfield. They're more than capable of doing it. they did it last season and they could then be on 18 points six out of six top of the premier league when we could be going through a process that could lead to at some point them being expelled from the premier league i'm not saying that this is easily unknotted by the way i think you've got to respect the time that's actually being taken and the seriousness with which this has been gone about rather than be glib or flip you see a lot of that on social media there's a lot of glibness around even now even today i always thought that it was a massive gamble and a brave move from the Premier League to launch so many charges and if they have been vindicated by the findings of the independence inquiry which it looks like they have, then we end up in this situation now where what it does do is actually taint the Premier League's own product for the foreseeable future.

1:10:12There's every chance, I don't know, Arsenal I think have got Leeds at home, next game back let's say Leeds manage to scrape a draw, City win at Anfield and all of a sudden these characters are sick of points clear. And everyone will be going, well how's that happened? What does this mean? But then Neil, that's a really interesting point on the length of the process and the due process to get to where they are and I completely understand and get your point of view on that that it had to be as thorough as possible and taken as seriously as possible but what nobody can have because this is what you've alluded to here if an appeal process starts you can't the competition cannot allow a lengthy appeals process Can it?

1:10:57Because of just that example that you've mentioned. Yeah, and this is why the idea that there are comparisons to Everton and Nottingham Forest are completely false. This is so much more serious. And as Stefan says, this is about fraudulent behaviour by a club at the very highest level. It's not the same as pushing the PSR rules. It just isn't. That might come in. That might be a factor that comes out. And what's hard amongst all of this is we haven't seen the written report yet. And the other thing we all need to be careful of, Stefan said this himself in the past, when we see the written report it is going to be one long report yes and anyone who says to you that they've got a quick they've got a quick analysis on it that person is not to be trusted but within it within this where we now find ourselves is the competition has to be ongoing now i'm saying there's every chance first game back after all this city turn up and they're 100 mile an hour we're gonna see this through but it might be if this is dragging on in three months time and no one quite knows if they're going to be allowed to finish the season let alone lift the trophy at the end of it because there could be points deductions it could be a different Manchester City that everyone's playing what this is doing and this is why the Premier League is being brave and I think should be its bravery should actually be applauded because what it does do is it does actually on the whole product and let's talk about it in that sense globally what it does is it does put a big crack in the facade of the whole product for the foreseeable future so do Ayling Haaland's two goals to win two goals to one at Anfield count in three months time and as I say I would genuinely be of the view I genuinely think that I think points of talk of points deduction to me is a little bit for the birds so much of this is actually about whether or not you can trust an organization is acting in good faith and the way in which it's been going on and Stefan talks about aggravating factors those aggravating factors are as aggravating and as ongoing in 2026 as they were in 2019.

1:12:43Stefan could they just on the appeals process could they put a limit on it, time limit on it? Not under the rules, but I do think that we're going to get into a situation where, remember, City, in terms of this part of the process, they're going to be appealing to, not appealing as in the actual appeal, but they're going to be asking an independent commission on the next stage for certain positions on things like publication or whether they themselves are biased, all these things. The independent commission is not with Manchester City right now. It is massively against Manchester City. That is what its findings appear to have concluded.

1:13:27That means they are getting very little from this commission. So they then have to try and find a way around the fact that we still haven't had the sanction agreement, which might flow straight away if that does that is going to take some time for people to have the time to digest the findings that cannot be a quick process so even if the independent commission says they're not playing ball with city wanting to have an appeal now and then come back to sanction and then have an appeal later even if it goes against city it's still not quick so you know I'm afraid we're in a zone where all of the things that Neil's just spoken about are just the reality we are just going to have to cope now for quite some time with quite a lot of uncertain and unacceptable sporting implications I'm afraid Scott where are you with all of this from from a United perspective well first of all when I saw the news come out I I was couldn't believe it we waited so long you know it's been such a long time that this has been you know in the pipeline and you know there was the UEFA case before that as well I think initially I was kind of relieved that we we had a verdict finally and in the hours since I've been thinking about United and the ramifications with this talk about missed titles you know there's the Aguero goal in 2012 that won the won the league for City that day ahead of United or at Sunderland but I've been thinking in the hours after like it's really been sinking in of how deep this actually goes beyond even Manchester United because all these charges and they date back to 2009 obviously so it was from essentially the inception of when Man City became the Manchester City that we know and all of the foundations that they put in place during those years in order to get to the point that we're at now and the point that they have been at for the last few years um i mean i'm just interested to see how this is going to unfold i've got to be honest i i i think the words expulsion has just been mentioned is that serious this is unprecedented unlike anything that we've ever seen i can't get my head around it the more i think about it the more i think of well if there was there a team that got relegated by a point that well i know It's just a city in one season.

1:15:55You know? Yeah, and that's how deep you wonder. I mean, that's why the phrase all hell will break loose has cropped up many times this evening. When you say expel, Neil, going back to that word, from where to where? From the Premier League and then what league, what will league will take them and let them apply? The AFL might say now there'll be sides in the EFL who are in the EFL or have competed with Manchester City in this period who are now EFL clubs and they might not be comfortable. So it might be re-entering the EFL at the bottom of League 2. It might be re-entering the National League.

1:16:35It is the idea of be expelled from the Premier League. You are not allowed to participate in Premier League football. You need to go and start again from the bottom. But the cans of worms are everywhere, Mark, in amongst all of this. And I think that it's also worth pointing out, I mean, Manchester City is part of all this. They literally play in a stadium that is rented to them by Manchester City Council. You know, Manchester itself has given over a lot of property from the City Council to UAE-based companies in the last 12, 14, 15, 16 years. And across the board, really, here, I mean, my general life position is that a period of quiet reflection from the City of Manchester would be no bad thing.

1:17:16but many of the positions that have been taken that have come out across the city of manchester from many people in positions of power institutional power in the city of manchester have been to close ranks and now and again we don't have it all in writing we don't have it all with clarity at all but now it would appear as though and this is why it is so serious and why it's important it's it's been done with complete thoroughness because as stefan has said this is not about pushing the boundaries of football rules this is about acting and choosing to act in a fraudulent way and then refusing to hold your hands up at any stage and acting as though no might will be right we will win out and that's clearly also in the background of what's gone on with UEFA as well there's the the reported quote of we will spend this many this much money on lawyers before we pay anything to UEFA this attitude as I say it's one which I think has been there culturally and it is a significant problem and it is one that needs to be reflected on in a number of different areas across I'd argue British public life we should not have reached this point you know there's a reason why certain organisations, entities shouldn't be allowed to buy football clubs you know and we can if you want I'm more than happy to throw some glare on Liverpool in this we've reached this point and it's a real error and I wonder which is kind of what I asked Stefan a little bit earlier whether if you were going to look at football and maybe we're all too long in the teeth of this, but you're going to look at football as a whole and go is this the moment that it resets?

1:18:53But I think I'm too long in the teeth and too cynical to think that that would happen, really. I think that there's been, so for instance, it doesn't appear as though there's any sort of comparative wrongdoing at Newcastle to what we can see at Manchester City at this stage and that's not come over because I think what's been clearer and clearer is that the regulations have got more and more real and began to have greater and greater bite. Football has always, to me, seems as though it's constantly behind the curve. And I think it still is. I think, for instance, there's not been enough reportage, commentary or analysis of the risk of something like the Mittal family and Bezos choosing to take a global brand like Liverpool.

1:19:29What would happen if they chose to push that envelope? We've all sort of glossed over that and instead just gone a big, shiny, Jeff Bezos is an all a bit weird thing. Rather than actually ask the question, do we actually need regulation to be tighter? my argument is that we do and we need to really make sure that football clubs are only ever spending what they themselves earn because the last thing anyone wants is a turbocharged Liverpool That's a good place to end that then Neil thank you very much for coming on as ever appreciate it, thank you Scott as well do you think it could lead to increased regulation, Stefan?

1:20:03I doubt it I think we are actually pretty heavily regulated now, I mean maybe people haven't yet seen the activity of the independent football regulator, but it is empowered. It does have a vast remit. And I would imagine that we are not going to get more and more regulation. I think there is lots of signs that actually the systems that are in place are actually working, regardless of what might have happened 10 years ago in Manchester City. I mean, the fact that we are in this position right now suggests that those governance processes have at least done their job to find the wrongdoing and to be brave in prosecuting it.

1:20:49I think there's elements of self-sabotage from a commercial perspective, but they've done it very bravely, and that's where we are now. OK, I just want to end talking to BBC Business correspondent Sean Farrington. Just about, in the main here, Sean, actually, Premier League reputation as a global brand, which I think somebody mentioned earlier, brand obviously is what it is. Yeah. Do you think it's got work to do here? It could be the defining set-up for the next few years of what the Premier League's all about. Often when you hear me wanging on in the morning about more boring things than this, when it comes to regulation, it's about sort of defining what you want to be as an industry or as a company, How do we want our water supplies to be done?

1:21:40All of that kind of stuff. And so when they're weighing up, this commission is weighing up. There'll be lots of things they're weighing up. They'll be looking at how strong are they holding the integrity of the league in the next few years. I was looking at broadcasting rights. They're up again in the next couple of years for renegotiation domestically, internationally. If there's no Manchester City in there, they've been a tenth of the revenues of the Premier League over the last few years. If there's no Man City in there, how much of a difference does that make versus saying to the rest of the world, we are not afraid to take huge action against one of the biggest clubs.

1:22:14So it is massive. The ripple effect, whether it is the broadcasters right around the world, our own government, you know, Andy Burnham was mayor of Greater Manchester for the last decade in which, you know, many questions have either been asked about City or that investment into East Manchester has really sort of dominated that part of the. the North West. So yeah, I mean, the ripple effects go far and wide. And the fact, I think the thing that of what we know, the thing that jumped out for me is no settlement. Quite often, you'll hear of some settlement when these things come about. And we're not hearing that word at all yet.

1:22:48So whatever comes next, feels like it's going to be big. Sean, thank you very much. Sean Farrington, BBC Business Correspondent. And that's the thing, I suppose, Stefan, finally, isn't it? It's how the Premier League, not market this, but look, we're strong, we can take action against one of our own but what they don't then want is their competition descending into far so if this drags on and on and on and on. Yeah, it's a real battle for them now, I have to say. There will be some celebration at Premier League Towers, I'm sure, because they will feel the best of the worst case is that they win the case but now they've got to deal with the fallout and the fallout is not easy to contain, as we've talked about for hours tonight.

1:23:35I think talk of a settlement is really very, very difficult to see because how does City get to a settlement? They would have to admit everything. Then there would have to be an agreement that was capable of being endorsed by the same independent commission that is already apparently found against them very, very heavily. And it's just very hard to see how that situation could pan out without City really taking on a punishment that I just don't believe there's any possibility they would. So I think we are, unfortunately, we are in for a period of quite a lot of instability, a lot of infighting and be that fighting of clubs against Manchester City.

1:24:20I think it's going to be a problem around all of the stadia, as we've talked about before. and I think the likelihood is that Manchester City will have to face legal action from many different quarters, I'm afraid. Stefan, appreciate your time and your insight this evening. Thank you very much for being with us.

1:24:44This is the football story of the century. It's pandemonium, it's ecstasy. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, as English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that. They've won it four years running, and no one's done that. Ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than 100 breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation. Somebody turned up at the Etihad Stadium and effectively served papers. Hear the in-depth analysis and explanation with football on trial.

1:25:20The Manchester City charges. Listen on BBC Sounds. It felt like everything I believed in was suddenly collapsing. This is the story of an Islamic boarding school in Indonesia with a dark secret of the school's head teacher. This was someone I respected above anyone else. And the investigation led by students he's trying to silence. If this is leaked to the media, I'll be destroyed. This is World of Secrets, catching my teacher. Listen on BBC.com, the BBC app, or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.