Memories of Mexico '86

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1:09Hello, welcome to a special Football Daily Podcast where we'll go back 40 years to reminisce on the 1986 Mexico World Cup. Joining us, Jonathan Wilson, author of The Power and the Glory, A New History of the World Cup, recently crowned Sports Book of the Year. It is a sensational book, Jonathan. I know you're not here to plug your book, but honestly, honestly, the whole history of the World Cup, it's brilliant. Oh, thank you very much. I'm always happy to plug any of my books. So don't worry, there'll be more plugs coming and you're not going to get away with just that one. It's an amazing reference point for all of the tournaments throughout the years.

1:49Is 86 your favourite? It might be, yes. Yes, I mean, I think everybody has a natural soft spot for their first World Cup. And my first World Cup was 82. I turned sixth during the 82 World Cup. So in that sense, 86 was the first one where I sort of really had some kind of sense of what was going on. But I think it was a brilliant World Cup. It looked so different. Yeah. I think that's something that we maybe lost. I think World Cups look quite homogenous now. But you could tell it was foreign. It looked really hot. there was that sort of washed out quality to it. The goals were, I mean, BoxNet is how we're used to, but the goals were enormous.

2:28The goals were absolutely, it's very difficult to explain how unusual that was to us watching at the time. And the interesting thing with this programme, Jonathan, as well, is I have to say, my producer pointed this out, 17 years ago, I did a whole load of shows for Five Live about every single World Cup. And my producer pointed out that back then in 2009, a lot of people listening would have remembered the 86 World Cup. And this time, 17 years on, some people listening would have no recollection of that World Cup. They might not have even been born. But the goals are the best. Honestly, that is the thing that sticks in my mind more than anything.

3:06As a kid, I was 13 at the time. The nets were huge, huge. I had an obsession with goal nets. And to the point where I think if you'd shown me sort of, you know, just a shot of a goal net on any top flight ground. I could have told you which stadium it was. But I had a theory that if a net went further back, as if it was these big box nets, it was easy to score from an arrow angle. And I think this was partly conditioned by Dundee United's game at Barcelona. Barcelona also, the Nou Camp, had those huge nets. The Stadium of Light at Benfica's ground had those huge goal nets. And then suddenly Mexico, they've all got those goal nets.

3:46So I know there's a sort of theory that because the air in Mexico is thinner, because of the altitude, that's why there are so many long-range goals. But I think maybe it's just the goal nets. And that, I think, is actually my overriding memory, is these long-range shots flying in. And then at school, suddenly people are tempting long-range shots nobody would have attempted before. And as you did it, there were two names you might have screamed. You might have screamed Josimar from Botafogo, but also Vasily Rats. And these then became names completely stripped of context. because they were just sounds that the kids made that signified a long-range shot has been attempted.

4:21Yeah, it was Josimar up here, or with my mates, it was always Josimar from that World Cup. But to younger listeners who don't understand, I mean, you would have those massive nets there, and then you would have your team going to play Southampton at the Dell, and the Dell nets were about three inches deep, weren't they? Yeah, they were. And Josimar, I think, is a great example as well of the exoticism of a World Cup then. I think he only played, I think, 15 or 16 times for Brazil. He wasn't a big player. Yeah, for people of our generation, he's a huge figure. And he only came in that team because I think it was Branco was injured.

4:57Now, if that was today, we'd have had weeks of build... Who are Brazil going to pick a right back? Oh, it might be this kid from Botafogo, Jossimo. He's got a long-range shot on him. So it wouldn't come as a shock when this thunderbolt flies in the top corner. But he just explodes in our consciousness. and you now have, you know, there's a Norwegian football magazine called Josemar named after him and I've got no idea what he did after that. I've got no idea if he went into management. I've no idea if he's still alive. Actually, I should have got an interview Josemar, shouldn't I? That's a good thing I should have done.

5:28Yeah, that would have been great. There's still plenty of time for you to do that. Over the course of the next 50 minutes or so, Barry Davis will join us, Marcelo Moreira will join us as later Argentina journalists an England fan will come on with us with his stories from Mexico, Scotland striker Graham Sharp as well, because Scotland were in a horrible, horrible group. It may have been that tournament. Was that the first tournament we came up with, group of death? Yeah, it was the Uruguay manager, Omar Barros, El Grupo de la Muerte, because they were with Denmark, Uruguay and West Germany. It was a really horrible, tough group.

6:04My first World Cup was Spain 82. So that was obviously played when I could watch everything once I got home from school, whereas this for me was that first exotic. I know 78 had been in Argentina, but I don't remember that. This was the first exotic World Cup where actually for England in their group games, I would actually have to wake up the following morning to find out what had happened. Yeah, I mean, I remember turning on breakfast TV the morning after the Poland game. So, I mean, England had started badly. They'd lost to Portugal and they drew against Morocco. Brian Robson got injured. Ray Wilkins was sent off in the space of 90 seconds towards the end of the first half.

6:42So they have to beat Poland to go through. And I went to bed long before that kicked off and woke up there. And I remember on breakfast TV, and the phrase they gave it away was, there is a smile on the face of English football this morning. And then seeing Linnecus Hattrick. And two of those goals, the breakaway, the counter-attacking football is absolutely stunning. Just the sort of build-up to this tournament, it actually, they weren't meant to host this tournament, were Mexico, were they? And then when the tournament which had originally been given to Colombia was taken off Colombia because of financial difficulties, ironically, given the World Cup that we're about to experience, Canada and the USA, along with Brazil, were in the running to host this one in 86.

7:28Yeah, that's right. So being given to Colombia actually as long ago as 1973, so they had 13 years to prepare. Wow. But I think it was probably too long. There was no urgency. And then, as you say, economic crisis plus issues with paramilitary groups, with the FARC. And then there was an earthquake there. And so Havilland, Joe Havilland, the president of FIFA, I think it's not coincidence that after the 1982 World Cup final, he flew from Madrid to Mexico City with the head of Mexican TV. I think maybe discussions happened on that flight. And so Colombia eventually pulled out early 1983, although I think FIFA were applying pressure.

8:07As you say, these four countries bidding, you might think Brazil would have been with a great chance given Haviland is Brazilian, but he was in a political battle in Brazil. He was trying to get his son-in-law, Ricardo Teixeira, who you may remember from subsequent FIFA corruption scandals, he was trying to get him appointed head of the Brazilian FA. So he was sort of very anti-Brazil. and it basically comes down to the US through Mexico and Mexico give this desultory 8 minute speech and Henry Kissinger who's fronting up the US bid he gives it everything, goes into this huge speech he's heading into the second hour and he hears Mexicans in the bar downstairs in the hotel celebrating and he realises it's all over and comes up with a phrase, it may be nostalgic for the Middle East, so I think that was a kind of an abrupt recognition of the realities of FIFA politics for Kissinger.

9:00But what that actually means, the president of Mexico, Miguel de la Madrid, he is one of only two at the moment, but Trump will become the third heads of state post-war to be in charge both when his country won the bid and when he actually hosted the tournament. We'll talk England a little bit later on. We'll talk Lineker, we'll talk Maradona, of course, but we've mentioned the group of death that that Scotland were in with Uruguay and Denmark and West Germany. And they also had the difficulty, Jonathan, the emotional difficulty in that in their qualifying campaign, their legendary manager, Jock Steen, collapsed and died when they were taking on Wales.

9:44So that led to Alex Ferguson having to take over for this World Cup. Yeah, an awful thing. It was the final qualifier and they needed to beat Wales in Wales. And yeah, he collapsed early in the second half. And the players found out in the dressing room after the game that he's died. So Alex Ferguson ends up taking over. They have a playoff against Australia. They win the first leg 2-0, draw 0-0 in Australia. So they've qualified. But Alex Ferguson has actually been offered the Arsenal job. And he said, no, I can't do it because I'm committed to Scotland. So the world could have been very, very different if that hadn't happened.

10:26Because if he'd taken the Arsenal job but had been no George Graham, who knows if United would have been stuck on the seven league titles they were on at the time. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that's as widely known as... I mean, it is known, isn't it? But it sort of gets forgotten, I suppose, in the story of Ferguson and United. Yeah, it does. I mean, it is probably at that World Cup, his approach by Bobby Charlton. That certainly was what Ron Atkinson thought. And one of the reasons for the breakdown of his relationship with Bobby Charlton, who was the director at United at the time, was that he felt that he tapped Ferguson up.

11:03And United had begun the 85-6 season exceptionally well. They'd won 10 in a row. And then they'd fallen away. They finished fourth. So when the 86-7 season begins badly, Atkinson's already under a bit of pressure and the fact that Ferguson is there lined up ready to come in clearly I think makes the decision to get rid of Atkinson that bit easier He had some difficult decisions to make did Ferguson ahead of taking Scotland to that World Cup Let's hear from Graham Sharp Scotland striker, played for Everton obviously Everton legend who spoke to Harry Robinson earlier about what it was like in the squad at that time It was horrendous obviously when the game was finished and we were celebrating and then we came into the dressing room and we knew there was something wrong.

11:50The masseur, who was a really good friend of Joxin, was in tears. So the boys are thinking, yeah, he's had a heart attack or whatever kind of thing, but he should be OK. It's not a problem. But then slowly but surely the dressing room was very, very quiet and then word came in that he'd sadly passed away. So it was coming from the euphoria of getting through the World Cup finals to losing your manager. It was tragic and it was a very solemn dressing room after that. I remember myself, I went back to Birmingham with Andy Gray and we drove back from Cardiff to Birmingham. And I don't think there was two words said between us.

12:25We were just so much in shock that we'd lost such a great man and a great manager. There was a big ask for Sir Alex as well. He was an up-and-coming manager and he was a very, very good manager. Sir Alex went in and right away he had the instant respect to the players. Obviously the homegrown players, as I said before. they were a little bit frightened of him. It was different, obviously, we were playing down in England. We didn't have many dealings with him, but certainly the Scottish boys were really petrified of him. But he was brilliant. He was brilliant for the team. He was brilliant for me.

12:54And I've got that much respect for the man. He did have difficult decisions to make as well, didn't he, Jonathan, as I was saying? Yeah, he did. I mean, the depth of talent in Scotland at the time was extraordinary. I think there was a tendency maybe to prefer players he played in Scotland. Certainly that was Alan Hansen's feeling. So he was left out of the squad. In Ferguson, to some extent you understand his Aberdeen centre-back pairing of William Miller and Alex McLeish, why would they not be a first choice? So he went for them, Alan Hansen's left out and then four days after that, Kane Dalgleish pulls out with a knee injury and of course Dalgleish was a good friend of Hansen from Liverpool and there was all kinds of rumours that he pulled out because his mate wasn't there which I suspect that's not true.

13:37I mean Dalgleish had scored in that, he played in the, in the playoff against Australia. But, I mean, yeah, they still had so much attacking talent. I mean, it's a great squad when you look at it. People like Davey Cooper and Charlie Nicklaus and Steve Archibald. Big-name players in every position. Yeah, Scotland had so many options, particularly in their forward areas at that time. As we've said, they were in this group of death and Denmark, especially, according to Graham Sharp, impressed the Scottish players? They had some fantastic players. You know, Elkjar, Jan Moby was involved, Lowdrop was involved, Jesper Olsen was involved.

14:17So they had a really good team. They were a fantastic side, as I said. Listen, you're well aware of this team that's doing well in the qualifiers. But you think when you get up against the teams and you're thinking, they beat Uruguay 6-1 in one of the group games and you're thinking, wow, where's this coming? We struggle against Uruguay with 10 men. Defensively, they're very, very good. But this Denmark team, the Danish team, were fabulous. And we could beat their one-nale. When you looked at that group and you saw when they came out, you thought right away Scotland would struggle. Germany were strong.

14:50Denmark were strong. Uruguay we didn't know a lot about. But we knew South American teams would be difficult. And to be fair, we knew that before we went out. But we go in and we play Germany. You know, they've got fantastic players in there. Matthias, Haugen, Tala. And they beat us as well. So the last game against Uruguay was, you had to win it. And, you know, I wasn't involved in the first two games. I wasn't even on the bench. But in the third game, he played me from the start, Sir Alex. And it was an awful experience. Great experience to play at a World Cup finals. But against that Uruguayan team, they were animals.

15:24They got a man sent off in the first minute, you know, for a foul on Gordon Strachan. And then that was just the story of the game. It was like some of the antics they got up to. It was a shame for me. I know that Sir Alex as well. I met him a couple of weeks ago at the Scotland game that was played at the Everton Stadium. And it was incredible to just listen to him. Honestly, I was in his company for about an hour and a half, two hours. And it was absolutely an unbelievable pleasure. And he always used to say that when that squad was named and we played the final game, and he left out Graeme Souness, who was a big, big part of the Scotland team.

15:59And he admitted it was the biggest mistake he'd made in football. So it just showed you, you know, he held his hand up and he said, yep, I was wrong there, I made the wrong decision, I should have played Graham Sooners, especially against Uruguay in a game that we had to beat them to progress. I think looking back, I think we could have and should have done better. The Scottish FA president at the time called Uruguay the scum of football. I mean, there was a real contrast with Denmark and Uruguay, wasn't there? Denmark were amazing to watch at that tournament, and your acquire just lumped everybody up in the air.

16:34Yeah, I mean, that Denmark side was an astonishing side. They played with a back three, which was a style of formation that was beginning to emerge at that tournament, but they played in pressing football. I think we probably hadn't really seen since the great Ajax side of the early 70s. There's a famous qualifier in June 85 on Denmark's Constitution Day when they beat the Soviet Union 4-2. If you watch that game now, the tempo of it is just extraordinary. But, I mean, they basically had seven attacking players on that side. Incredible to watch. Michael Laudrup, Preben Elkiar, just great players.

17:13And the other great thing about that Denmark team? Oh, the kit. Are we talking about the kit? There you go. You see, if we were talking the aesthetics of the goals, then the kit was just beautiful. Yeah, the Hummel kit, the red and white. sort of a one half red, the other half red and white sort of pinstripes. No, it's an iconic kit. Just Google it. If you don't remember it from the time, just Google it. It is a beautiful Hummel kit. The thing with Denmark, like so many times in the tournament, things never change over the years. There was a big debate about whether it would be easier to finish second rather than first in that group.

17:53And they went and won that group and then gave themselves a harder path, Jonathan then to progress and they didn't yeah they played West Germany in the final group game and West Germany lost which they then played Morocco in the in the last 16 Denmark won 2-0 and they faced Spain the other thing that happened in that 2-0 win Frank Arneson you may remember was sports sporting director at Chelsea his wife had meningitis and he'd been spending the night sort I was sitting by a bedside. And he ended up in a contratone with Lodeo Mateus, and I think there's 35 seconds to go. So pretty much a game stopped, but Mateus just kept going.

18:33Maybe Arnison, because he was tired, because his mind wasn't sort of quite in the right place. So he just sort of flicks out of heel, gets himself sent off. Because of that, Jesper Olsen plays against Spain in the last 16. John Siverbeck, who was at Manchester United, the fullback, he went down with stomach problems just before the game, which means Jesper Olsen ends up playing at wing back on the wrong side and he scores a penalty. So Denmark a 1-0 up. Then just before half-time, he takes a pass from Lars Hurg, the goal kick. Lars Hurg's the goalkeeper. Receives the goal kick short. And probably because he's on his wrong foot, he tries to roll it back to him square across the top of the box when probably the right thing to do is to just play it down the line.

19:18Hurg's not expecting it. Emilio Buttegueno steals in, scores, it's 1-1, and Denmark basically fall apart. Buttegueno ends up scoring four, Spain win 5-1, and that's Denmark. He'd been absolutely brilliant in the group stage. They go out in the last 16. And ever since then, a hospital pass in Denmark is known as a Jesper Olsen. Yeah, so the commentator, his immediate reaction was, Jesper, Jesper, Jesper, that one is fatal. So he sort of picked it straight away. Even though it was an equaliser, and even though Denmark had been on top in the first half, he knew that that was going to puncture their hopes.

19:57He sensed that that collapse was going to come. As far as England were concerned, their build-up, like many times in the 80s, a lot of England's build-up was dominated by Brown Robson's fitness. Yes, and as so often, he ends up getting injured during the tournament. I mean, the same thing happened in 1990 as well. But, I mean, England had qualified unbeaten. I think certainly the only European side to qualify unbeaten. It might have been the only team full stop to qualify unbeaten. So there was relatively high hopes. And then they lose the first game 1-0 to Portugal. And then it's that game against Morocco when everything falls apart in 90 seconds just before halftime.

20:35Robson dislocates his shoulder and there's that sort of famous image of him with his shirt sort of pulled up to sort of support the elbow as he goes off. and then Ray Wilkins throws the ball at the referee, gets himself sent off. And England sort of hold on for a 0-0 draw against Morocco. Who go on and they're the first African side ever to get through the group. So it was a decent Morocco side. I mean, they beat Portugal 3-1 as well. So it was a good Morocco side. And that's what then leads to Bobby Robson deciding to change formation, change shape and leads to the 3-0 win over Poland, Volineke hat-trick.

21:08And that's what really gets England going in that tournament. Well, let's just hear a couple of things from that time. First of all, Bobby Robson on Brian Robson and his injury. I've seen some sad sights in football. One of the saddest I'm looking at now, it's Brian Robson, his arm hanging to his side. Everything has gone wrong for us, because two years of work has sort of disappeared, but we're still very much in contention. We have to beat the polls if we do that. We've got three points, and I think there'll be a good chance of winning. So he said about beating the polls, and Jonathan has already mentioned it, It was a Gary Lineker hat-trick that beat Poland 3-0 and took England into the next round.

21:48And let's just reminisce a little bit with the commentary on the radio of that hat-trick. Reid lays it away to the far side. Stephens inside. Lineker's there. Lineker's good. Forward now. Flick on by Beardsley. And away goes Hodge. Left edge at the area. Dangerous one. And they've done it again. And again, it's Lineker. Plays it high and the goalkeeper's lost it. And Lineker has made it three. and England are on the way to the next round, surely. Gary Lineker, plaster on the wrist, confidence in the boot, bang. And I'm glad they said plaster on the wrist, because that was one of the abiding images of that World Cup.

22:26Yeah, it was. I mean, particularly the second goal in that game, which is a beautiful goal. Beardsley plays this pass around the corner as England break, and Steve Hodge whips this ball across first time. I think the TV commentary is, and Lineker's coming on it now. And the ball bounces slightly awkwardly in front of him. And he sort of, so it's not a volley because it has bounced, but it's sort of, it's probably about knee height when he strikes it first time. And then, yeah, the arm goes up with the plaster on the wrist. So, yeah, it was in the same way Brian Robson wearing the sweatband on his wrist had been the sort of the iconic wrist wear of the 82 World Cup.

23:02Lineker's plaster becomes the iconic wrist wear of the 86 World Cup. Let's talk to Jono Vernon Powell, who was at the tournament, an England fan at the tournament, which I'm guessing at the time was a real challenge, wasn't it, Jono? Hi, Mark. Hi, Jonathan. Yes, I've been loving listening the last 15 minutes. Certainly Graham Sharp. I was at the Scotland-Uruguay game and at the West Germany game. And believe it or not, I wore an England shirt and Scotland end. And lived to tell the tale. But yeah, no, great memories. Goodness gracious. I mean, especially that, obviously, the group games. Getting there was, yeah, I mean, crikey.

23:42It was, I mean, I was in a fortunate position where I managed to scrape some savings together and at the end of the day, plan to get out there for the whole tournament for six weeks. So I worked out, bear in mind, we were in Monterey, northern Mexico. I actually flew out to Houston and then hitched across the border down into northern Mexico. And it was quite strange, really, because, I mean, for me, I was in my, you know, early 20s. And going back to Mexico is so exciting because you always remember your first World Cup. And my first World Cup memory was obviously 1970. The sort of, you know, Bobby Moore and Pele and Banks' save and all that.

24:18So going to Mexico, I was absolutely thrilled to be going there. And I remember arriving in Houston. No one in the States had any idea what was going on down in Mexico. And it took me two days to hitch to the border. I remember getting to the border and the American Border Police said, so what are you doing, boy? You're going our Mexico way? What's happening? And I said, oh, I'm going to the World Cup. And they said, you're going to the World Cup? What's that? Hey, Larry, this guy's going to the World Cup. Yeah, I know that's the Soccer World Cup. Yeah. Who are you going for? I'm going for England.

24:45This guy's on the England team. I've had about four of them taking photos of me. I just love the idea of, you know, Brian Robson and the Great Wilkins and Peter Reed hitching to the ground. Anyway, got to Mexico and Monterey. And, of course, the whole place was buzzing. the only slight hiccup to it all was of course laced with the 80s anything to do with England away was just dominated yeah meet you with nothing else to do other than tape on the fact that there's football hooligans and I remember arriving there and the people of Monterey were brilliant the mayor of Monterey welcomed the England fans to a sort of um uh sort of it's in the middle of the plaza or something I think you know he welcomed everyone and said you're more and basically bear in mind that you know morocco portugal and poland didn't really have any fans you know it's cold war and finance and that so that how many england fans were there i don't know a couple of hundreds a couple hundred thousand couple of thousand maybe something like that and i think they announced the biggest sort of um tourist thing was the brewery so they invited all the england fans to the brewery i didn't actually make it for some reason but there's the day two they announced the brewery run out of beer so um what they decided to do is put football tournaments on and it was great actually you just walked through central monterey and there were football games going on non-stop between the england fans and mexican fans the police had a team and you know england looking really good until it got to about six minutes in the heat was so unbelievable you know we're substituting all the time but it was a really happy atmosphere um in monterey and you did definitely feel away from the main tournament albeit that we i was on my own but i hooked up with a few others and we worked out pretty quickly you get an overnight bus to any wherever the next game was and over the tournament i went to 23 games well that's what i was going to say actually you know having having read your blog on it as well jonah it does it does strike you when you read it of and this isn't you know looking back through roasting to glasses or anything but But it was a more innocent World Cup in the sense of reading it, you could go wherever you want and get tickets to whatever you wanted.