MNC: Arsenal winning ugly, Chelsea’s reds & expanded VAR

10:00Rory Smith:That's funny what Chris says to his tax man at the end of the financial year, which he really doesn't like.

10:05Nedum Onuoha:This is a season to be jolly, I'm sure. So, anyhow, back to Arnott on the slot. You have to accept it. This is about set pieces. If I watch other leagues, I don't think there's so much emphasis on set pieces. If I watch an Eredivisie game, which I still do, I see goals being disallowed and fouls on goalkeepers being given. And I think, wow, that's a big difference. He can almost hit a goalkeeper in his face and the referee still says, just go on. Do I like it? My football heart doesn't like it. If you ask me about football, I think about the Barcelona team from 10 to 15 years ago. Every Sunday evening, you were hoping they would play.

10:40Nedum Onuoha:Now, most of the games I see in the Premier League are not, for me, a joy to watch, but it's always interesting because it's so competitive. That is what makes this league great because there's so much competitiveness. Everyone can win against everyone. I think there are quite a lot of things that you couldn't pick there. firstly it being not a great weekend to say Premier League games aren't a joy to watch because there were several on Saturday which were a real real joy to watch the other thing is people got bored by the Barcelona team you've been on here being bored by the Manchester City team of a few years ago in a different type of boredom because the boredom of Man City was that they were

11:24Rory Smith:Boredom's boredom Well yeah that's true Boredom is boredom I think City the issue was That they dominated games so much They didn't feel competitive And that again When I said that Not only was I criticised by Chris Which I expect And is in many ways The reason I say stuff But it's Like City fans got cross Because City fans want to hear Well they want to hear people Who aren't City fans Saying the things That they feel about their club But nobody does that Nobody gets that United didn't get that when they won lots of Leeds. You didn't have Liverpool fans saying, do you know what? They are great to watch.

12:00Rory Smith:Ultimately, if you have a perspective of this is my team, you want to hear positive things. And people who do not have that same kind of perspective will think different things. And yet, weirdly, they're the ones accused of bias. But anyway, I think with Arsenal, it's partly that it has felt like the season itself is being defined by set pieces. I think games like yesterday don't massively help because not only were they three goals from corners, but they were so scrappy. And they're so scrappy at a time. The cost of the players on that pitch, the cost of all the squads in the Premier League, the amount of money we all pay to watch football live or to watch football on television, and you kind of think maybe this shouldn't be being decided

12:41Nedum Onuoha:by people pushing each other in corners. But then that is a wider thing, Nadam, isn't it? Because that is not a stick with which to beat Arsenal. That is a stick with which to beat the Premier League. this season. And honestly, we were, well, I was, you had all left at nine o 'clock last week, but I was in here for the second half of Everton Manchester United. It was terrible. It was, I mean, just constant for the whole of that half, really, and what was going on at corners.

13:14Mark Chapman:Yeah, so with corners themselves, there was a point in my mind where I start to perceive the game differently and it was two years ago when this is like super niche now, so maybe this is So this was Burnley against Luton. Oh, that's the good stuff. Yeah, yeah. This is prime time. Three o 'clock on a Saturday. Everybody saw it. But the cross came in and Trafford went to try and grab it. And he was essentially pushed by somebody in the Luton team. Probably Andross.

13:38Nedum Onuoha:No, no. And then Morris scored.

13:42Mark Chapman:And somebody had bumped Trafford. And with him, it's like, well, that's obviously a foul. Everyone's like, that's obviously a foul. But they checked with the VAR and they gave the goal. So fast forward to this time now, and I think the way that I see it, the more bodies you can put into the six-yard box, the harder it will be for a goalkeeper to be able to find the ground, to come and affect it in a positive way. And considering they're the only person allowed to use their hands in that space, if you make them redundant, then all of a sudden all these set pieces become, it's almost like it's a game of percentages.

14:11Mark Chapman:Because say for, if we talk about Arsenal, a great Declan Rice ball is one that goes into the six-yard box where there are probably 10 to 12 players within five yards of it. If you're trying to defend it, you'll not be able to do it uncontested. If you're trying to attack it, the slightest touch could cause havoc. So it becomes percentages. Whereas I think in the past with some set pieces, because goalkeepers were protected more, you almost had to have either somebody who was like supremely good with their headers or you had the element of creativity. And to go against what Chris said just a little bit, by the way, boredom is boredom.

14:43Mark Chapman:In some ways, I don't think it is because I think some boredom comes from fatigue, whereas some boredom comes because I'm just not into that. and Arsenal set pieces in this form because we've seen it so much. For some, it starts to get boring.

14:56Rory Smith:To me, the biggest issue, and it's not just Arsenal, although they are the best at it, so they're kind of in the vanguard. When Sanchez, for the second Arsenal goal yesterday, when Sanchez claimed he was fouled, you watch the replay and you think, you've not been fouled. There is nothing wrong. I mean, there's maybe a touch on his shoulder, very briefly, a sort of gentle stroke. Looked more pleasant than anything.

15:18Mark Chapman:Easy.

15:18Rory Smith:But if you look at the replay, there's about 10 other fouls going on in the box. There are players who are wrapped around each other. There's players holding shirts. And I think there is a point at which it's okay to say, well, look, is this how we want? Do we want the Premier League experience, not just Arsenal, to be waiting for a team to get a corner, waiting a minute and a half while they load the box with bodies? Jonathan Northcroft in the Sunday Times used the term meat wall, which I think is the perfect way to describe the Premier League. Someone scores a goal, and then we spend five minutes waiting for VAR to chalk it off.

15:49Rory Smith:Is that what we want the Premier League experience to be?

15:51Nedum Onuoha:Can I just say, if you are doing the BBC Sport Live text commentary this evening, can you just put context into... The meatball, obviously. Well, both the meatball and Rory's, you know, Robert Sanchez having a stroke. The thing, Chris, is there are so many different things that you can unpick. Arsenal's set pieces are so good because they have, in Declan Rice and Bukai Saka, are the best deliverers of a dead ball, really, in the whole league. Don't they? I mean, I would say 95 % of the time, that ball lands exactly where they expect it to land. And secondly, if we are talking about set-piece coaches, and this, again, is across the whole league here, and we had an email about this, if I can find it, Graham in Cramlington, everyone is quick to blame referees saying they're weak, they're allowing the mauling or whatever.

16:40Nedum Onuoha:What about the so-called set-piece coaches or the managers? and that is from defensive set pieces. We always go on about set piece coaches from the attacking point of view. What about from the defensive point of view? Because at the moment, all it looks to be is just grapple and block and hopefully we'll get away with it.

16:58Chris Sutton:Yeah, I have talked about this before. I think that we always, that's like, what's his name at Aston Villa, Austin McPhee, who loves to become the centre of attention when Aston Villa get the free kick. You know, you often see him out waving his hands, you know, in front of Unai Emery, don't you? You know, trying to get players into position. But, yeah, there are two sides, aren't there? And we praise the set-piece coach when they score goals and yet when they concede. I mean, there are both sides of it. So, yeah, I mean, you know, set-piece coaches have a responsibility defensively. But, you know, they seem to sort of get away with not being criticised on their team.

17:43Chris Sutton:concedes but look i'm sure every team works on it but the thing you say about delivery that's always been the case even back in uh my day at the start of the premier league yeah well you you knew and it may be predictable but but it's true if if the delivery is in the right area and you have people who are just superior who read the flight of the ball and can go and can go and attack it it's on it's unstoppable gabriel how do you how do you mark gabriel you know we've seen we've seen people try and try and wrestle him block him if he gets a run and a leap uh and the ball's in the right area you aren't going to beat him i don't care what anybody says it's it's nigh impossible i was having this discussion at the weekend you can go zonal you can go man for man you can do whatever you want but you know no hang on hang on nobody is unbeatable in the air nobody not even

18:34Nedum Onuoha:the greatest headers of football were unbeatable in the air. Well, they sort of are.

18:40Chris Sutton:Well, they're not. Well, how do you... So, for example, when I played, if people were to go man for man, you'd work a block. A block is a very, very simple thing to do and somebody would get a run. Then if the delivery's good, you're going to score. With zonal, with zonal, if the delivery is good. And I mean, what a lot of teams do is, you know, they use some of the smaller players to try and block and be a nuisance. And then, you know, the zonal people standing, you know, three or four lined up on the six yard line. Every team has somebody in the near post space. What has changed, I think, over the years is you don't see people on the post so much anymore, which I mean, it's I don't know why that isn't statistically.

19:29Chris Sutton:something which I haven't thought about but if the delivery is there Mark I don't care what anybody says people's ability in the air to time the jump and to read the flight of the ball I mean some people are just better at it than others I'm afraid

19:45Mark Chapman:I do think that's fair but I think with Arsenal in my opinion what makes them so good at these sometimes is that if you take your best head of the ball and put them on Gabriel before you know it you've left the centre of the goal open you know Arsenal from this just talking purely set pieces if you go and put the focus on Gabriel and Saliba well who's got Timber and Hicapie who's got Jokerez you know sometimes like who's got Havertz who's got even like Martinelli's in the box who get in first contact with some of these balls so there aren't many teams that have the make-up to go and defend against Arsenal and feel like everything is like for like that's why sometimes you'll see like obscure people trying to mark like Gabriel and for them that's brilliant but if all of a sudden as I say the better the ball goes elsewhere

20:27Nedum Onuoha:Surely you just put your best header of the ball on Gabriel.

20:29Mark Chapman:No, because there's still... That's what we do in pub football. Of course, of course, my bad. The delivery's probably not as good, though. I would say that. Well, I would say that.

20:37Chris Sutton:But are you telling me they wouldn't work a block, Mark? So you say best header of the ball.

20:42Mark Chapman:Sorry, sorry, Chris. I was just going to say, I don't think that Gabriel has to be the first option on every set piece. I think they've got tons of others. They've got a bunch of people who are committed to getting not just the first contact, but second contact.

20:53Rory Smith:But that's the issue with Arsenal, isn't it? I think it's unusual, and this is said as praise before the Instagram comments roll in. Too late. It's not that they've got one player who's incredible in the air and that's Gabriel. And that would be enough of a threat if you've got someone who is. And I think Chris is right. I think he's maybe not impossible to stop, but he's very difficult to stop in the air. But even if you deal with Gabriel, you've probably got four or five others. And I think that is the difference. And that might be where Arsenal are dragging. Not dragging, dragging sounds pejorative, but where they are shaping the way other teams are playing.

21:26Rory Smith:that you will see teams get bigger, get stronger, have more emphasis on aerial dominance, because that's what you need to do to combat Arsenal. Whether that's a good thing or not, I don't know. But the issue that teams have when they're facing Arsenal is that you can try and come up with a plan to deal with Gabriel, but that necessarily leaves four or five other players who can also really hurt you in the air available.

21:48Mark Chapman:For sure. I think they deserve credit for it, because I don't know if you're the same, Chris, but there were tons of teams who I played for where most people couldn't care less about set pieces. but instead the Arsenal side and others who are good at them, they're fully committed, whether it's an attack or defence, to understanding what their jobs are and doing it 100%. So I think they do deserve credit. My only thing I would say is that while we're in this position now to where goalkeepers are essentially redundant from corners, the league can take on the identity of being like this and defending those set pieces, it's not just going to happen at Arsenal.

22:16Mark Chapman:You could be playing against Leeds and it's the same thing. Same idea with throw-ins and all across the board. We talked about this with Shea before,

22:23Rory Smith:that it strikes me that the one thing that's not been allowed to happen is the goalkeepers are not being allowed to come out and kind of use the fact they can use their arms to combat this. There's no space for them. There's no space for them. What, Rory, say that again? The goalies can't come out anymore because there's so many bodies around them. And it was the case five years ago that as soon as there was contact on a goalkeeper, it was a free kick. And that is too far the other way. But it feels to me watching it that there is too much going on in the box in terms of wrestling that is not an attempt to get the ball.

22:51Nedum Onuoha:Lamont did it last week by standing he specifically said afterwards he stood behind his line that gave him gave him some space so that he could then move into and attack I mean he still has to come through a crowd but he he's starting with I suppose a bit of momentum as he goes through the initial bit of space rather than being crowded out

23:12Mark Chapman:yeah listen that that could work but it depends what the setup is of the opposition you know what I mean like if it's an outswinging corner you've got half a chance but if it's an inswinger like I think when Arsenal played United a few weeks ago and it was the goal from Marino I think I counted 16 bodies in the six yard box listen he could start in the stands if he wants but he's not going to be able to run out and do anything about that that's probably a bit too far

23:34Darren Cann:you know what I think?

23:35Nedum Onuoha:we'll see I'm going to move it onto the Chelsea side of things another red card Neto sent off let's hear from Liam Rossini first of all on Chelsea's discipline

23:46Mark Chapman:my job is to is to create

23:50Rory Smith:a culture of accountability where if you make a mistake it's okay, you hold your hands up and you make sure it doesn't happen again, but you have to hold your hands up to the original mistake. If I make the wrong team

24:00Mark Chapman:selection or I get something wrong, my job is to be accountable and it's the same for my players in that moment. Pedro's apologised to the group we miss him for Wednesday I just need to see an improvement in the behaviour now.

24:14Rory Smith:It's not just Pedro, we've had bookings, people speak about dissent, we've had needless bookings in terms of fouls. If we are to improve and get to where we want to be, we have to make a conscious step now to make sure it doesn't happen again. Yes, we're a young team. It's not an excuse. I have an outstanding team. We are one of the youngest in the league, one of the youngest in Europe. The beautiful thing about having a young team is sometimes you need to go through experiences to improve. This is a massive learning experience for my group. I do not want it to be a learning experience where we fail and what we want to achieve but these setbacks that we that we are

24:49Mark Chapman:having we have to learn from because if we do learn from them we've proven even in my short time here that we can be an elite team for it for a long time do you listen to that nadam and think you shouldn't really have to learn not to get sent off um i'll be honest i have some sympathy with him for him just because the way that their players are getting sent off like for me personally it feels like it's a lot but I see teams with having more ill discipline to take more yellow cards I think Pedro Neto being sent off on the weekend that doesn't feel like a normal sort of thing to me and I'd say the same for potentially other players I think for the way that Chelsea play at times with say style of pain trying to be on the front foot winning the ball back high The margin of error might be smaller than other teams who are maybe more on the back foot.

25:38Mark Chapman:But the discipline problem, rather. I'll say, I've just looked here. I'm just going to go yellow cards. They've had 62 yellow cards, which is the fourth worst in the division. And worse than them, it's Bournemouth, Brighton and Spurs, which isn't necessarily something I would have thought of in terms of discipline.

25:56Nedum Onuoha:Nobody, I don't think anybody, correct me if I'm wrong, anybody, but I don't think anybody has said Bournemouth have got a discipline problem.

26:03Mark Chapman:Yeah, and obviously it's because of the red cards that Chelsea have had. But for me, worse would be if it's like the same offender over and over. Like say if they had a team full of, say, the 25, 26 Romero, who's had some very suspect red cards, then I think there's more of an issue. But I don't think the team overall is like a brutal physical team. But it is costing them. But he knows their mistakes. And those players, they likely won't do it again.

26:30Nedum Onuoha:I do feel where we've done Chelsea's sort of red cards before on match of the day earlier in the season. And I am slightly wary of lumping them all together because because they all happen in very differing ways and different contexts. So, you know, Robert Sanchez's red card at Old Trafford has a very different feel to it, which was for a professional foul than, say, Liam De Lappe at Wolves in the League Cup, where he did leave a bit on a Wolves centre-half, which again is different to Marlo Gusto getting a second yellow card very late on at Nottingham Forest when they were comfortably going to win.

27:15Nedum Onuoha:so I sort of feel at times it's a little bit unfair to lump they've got a massive discipline issue when it's not like they're just going around kicking lumps out of people and getting sent off for that

27:27Rory Smith:Yeah and Nedden's right that there'll be an element of the high-pressed teams run more risks of getting more yellow cards as that would well that's what unites Bournemouth and Brighton Spurs are kind of a rule unto themselves at the moment but they are the high-pressing teams you can see them getting a lot of yellows Chelsea following that mould I guess I suppose the point where inexperience comes in is that when you are on a yellow, it's knowing the extent to which you have to modify your game so you don't risk getting the second one. And I think that is maybe the difference that all teams get...

27:56Rory Smith:Premier League players, the inexperience age thing

27:59Chris Sutton:is just utter guff, isn't it, really?

28:02Rory Smith:But I suppose that's the difference to me is that all teams get red cards. So that Sanchez one, I was there, and it was unnecessary. And the cool, rational, logical decision there is to let the player take the shot and stay on the pitch. It was the 13th minute or something, I think. But where Chelsea are kind of building up the numbers, where they're kind of getting the extra red cards, is in those moments where players like Neto aren't thinking, I'm on a yellow, I've got to sort of modify my behaviour. And that maybe is why they've got more than we would expect.

28:37Chris Sutton:I mean, it's not on Liam Rossini, though, is it? I mean, you know, most of them are on Enzo Maresco. I think he mentioned that listening to him. He mentioned Maresca's name and said he wasn't going to blame him and then basically did. But in terms of Neto, I mean, Neto's not 18 or 19 where you can maybe excuse it as youthful exuberance. He's 25. I mean, his second challenge was just idiotic, especially in such a short space of time after, you know, it had just been booked. I mean, that was such an easy decision.

29:14Nedum Onuoha:Do you take Rhys James' point, though, Chris? Every time it's someone different, it's not the same player. So internally, we need to review and keep improving. It is a problem. 11 against 10 is even harder in the toughest league in the world. It's not like one player you sit down and go...

29:32Chris Sutton:No, I know what you're saying, but you can't, you know, collectively, it just is a problem because they don't want to be in that position. So surely it's something which they, I would assume I might be wrong, but surely it's something that they have discussed. And it's not really, it's not really difficult to, you know, to get to the bottom of it. I mean, Neto, you know, you've made the point they're all different. And I agree with that. But you can't, you can't excuse what Neto did. You know, absolutely. But it's something they're just, they are, they are shooting themselves in the foot. aren't they or they have done with it with with you know Liam Rossini's gone in now and and people are talking about well he must he has to get the top four place um I think Steve Crossman said last night he has to get a top four place otherwise will he be under pressure and you're thinking well it's not that's not helping Liam Rossini is it this this situation so he's talking about accountability but the players uh you know you say it's a young inexperienced squad they are old enough to know better I'm afraid.

30:41Nedum Onuoha:If you were in Pedro Neto's situation and chasing the winger back were you glaring at me? No, no, please carry on. Does it go through your mind, I'm on a yellow, I'd better be careful here? Should it go or rather, should it go through your mind?

30:57Mark Chapman:I think it should go through everyone's mind when you're on a yellow because you're essentially playing a different game, especially when you're in a position like for them where you're away from home and every foul or something that you give will sound and feel worse because all the crowd around you will make a point of it and it's not to say that referees can be influenced from that standpoint but emotionally you can sort of sense that in a different sort of way so i think you should be able to manage yourself better when you are uh essentially on the yellow card because you know at some point everybody gets them and you do have to play a different game you have to be slightly different your decision making has to be slightly different you're playing a game of football where the sort of scenarios change all the time so i think he will be there's some way you could say you're unlucky it's helpless it's whatever but the ones that you should be able to manage like as a professional and as Chris said Nettles is not brand new and I think looking at this table a couple of things here Chappers by the way this is the disciplinary table United have got the fewest yellow cards in the league 37 and just one red card

31:50Nedum Onuoha:Why are you saying that to me as if I'm responsible for United's play and behaviour

31:54Mark Chapman:No it's just because play along it's just because the next best for yellow cards is Arsenal 39 no red cards which is better than was it last year with Declan Rice and all that stuff at the start of the year

32:04Rory Smith:They got a few silly ones last year

32:05Mark Chapman:Exactly, yeah. Liverpool, one red card. Man City, no red cards. So if we're going to compare them, compare them to teams who are trying to achieve the same sort of thing. And I think that's when the mistakes... I don't think they have a disciplinary problem per se, but it's the sign of a team who are making it harder for themselves when they're at that level to where you can barely afford to make a single mistake.

32:24Chris Sutton:We'll be doing next week Manchester United, if they were a bit more aggressive.

32:30Mark Chapman:I planted the seed, that's what it is.

32:32Nedum Onuoha:The other thing is that I can imagine fans of so many other Premier League clubs going hang on a minute so the four teams are the best discipline records are City, United, Liverpool and Arsenal. I wonder what the referees are favouring there. You know? It makes perfect sense. Listen,

32:47Mark Chapman:the confusing part about this because I went from yellow cards to red cards so in some ways I was mixing up a little bit. In terms of yellow cards so it goes United, Arsenal, Nottingham Forest, Aston Villa, West Ham. Would you have thought any of those?

32:59Nedum Onuoha:No. No. I mean I wouldn't have thought Bournemouth

33:02Mark Chapman:would have second most. How many reds have Bournemouth had? Bournemouth have had one red card. Okay. That's it.

33:10Nedum Onuoha:We're veering into the territory of literally reading out the disciplinary table. I can keep going if you want, Chapman. No, later on we're going to discuss IFAB's new rules. Oh, yeah, that's right up my street.

33:24Rory Smith:A new era of Formula One is about to dawn.

33:27Andy Halliday:I think the biggest step the sport has ever seen.

33:30Mark Chapman:There are new rules, new cars and a brand new team.

33:34Rory Smith:In Formula One it's just absolute brutal pure competition. And the next generation of star drivers are taking us along for the ride too.

33:42Andy Halliday:I'm going to go like a madman. If you want to make it first of all you have to believe that you have what it takes.

33:46Rory Smith:The biggest shake-up of F1's rulebook has been years in the making.

33:50Darren Cann:Somebody's going to get it right and somebody's going to get it wrong.

33:53Rory Smith:I'm Rosamund Pike and this is F1 Back at Base. A new era. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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36:54Andy Halliday:This is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman.

36:58Nedum Onuoha:On the Football Daily Podcast.

37:03Nedum Onuoha:On to the best title race in the Scottish Premiership. Celtics, Rio Hattate scoring late in the old firm for it to finish 2-all. I mean, a fantastic double save from Jack Butland from his penalty. Hearts won on Saturday. Motherwell won as well. So the table, Hearts have 63 from 29, Rangers 57 from 29, Celtic 55 from 28, and Motherwell 53 from 28. It genuinely, Chris, just gets better. It does. Just an incredible weekend with Hearts winning, with Motherwell winning.

37:48Chris Sutton:And then the nature of the game was just, I don't know whether everybody watched it. It was the strangest game ever. I mean, Rangers could have been out of sight. I mean, they absolutely smashed Celtic in the first half, bullied them. Poor old Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain. I mean, Martin, you know, got them in. He was training at Arsenal, got them in. He's barely played this season. And he struggled to find the pace of the game, get to the pace of the game. Celtic didn't have legs in midfield. They were mauled by Rangers. The quality of the goals from Chimiti, I mean, the overhead kick, and then his second one was absolutely sensational, like his touch around Araujo and then slotting it.

38:34Chris Sutton:And this is a guy,£8 million, who was criticised heavily from Rangers fans. You know, he's getting the old, he's a dud and what have you. But he's scored some really important goals for them. and then halftime Martin O 'Neill made the changes, brought Rio Atatian, who I mean, Rory's probably heard me mention him before on the Monday nightclub. I thought he would be one who was a certainty to play in the Premier League. But this season, for whatever reason, he's been so poor. I don't know whether he's been sulking. I don't know what it is. But he came on at halftime and gave Celtic control in that midfield area and then had the game gone on for another five minutes, Celtic would have ended up winning.

39:20Chris Sutton:I mean, you know, it was 2-2. Celtic did to Rangers in the second half what Rangers did to Celtic in the first half. So, yeah, that's where we're at.

39:29Nedum Onuoha:Don't take any offence at this, Chris, but Andy Halliday is the perfect guest for this chat because he's played for Rangers, plays for Hearts and he's currently at Motherwell. So that gives a much more balanced perspective on everything. Andy, thank you very much for joining us and you were part of our commentary team yesterday. the one thing I

39:46Chris Sutton:are you in a car right

39:47Nedum Onuoha:I mean are you in a

39:49Chris Sutton:limousine or something where you're doing this

39:51Andy Halliday:it's certainly not a limousine Chris I can guarantee you that but I'm indeed in a car yeah

39:56Nedum Onuoha:well thank you very much for pulling over and doing this the one thing that struck me yesterday was both teams went hell for leather at each other it wasn't cagey it was we are going to go for this and it was very similar actually to the week before or two weeks before when Rangers and Hearts played each other and they both went for it. Not only is the title race close, but nobody's playing it cagey. Everybody is going for it with foot on the accelerator.

40:27Andy Halliday:Yeah, absolutely. I think the game yesterday probably epitomised the season in its totality and also both teams. I think Celtic have shown throughout the season that they can be a good side in spells and they can also be quite poor and I think Rangers are the exact same. and I was listening to Chris's assessment of the game yesterday and I think it's pretty much exactly what he says. I thought Rangers were with so much energy, so much intent in the first half and Celtic I thought were slightly spooked by it. I thought Celtic then got dragged into a game that they don't normally do where they were playing long on occasions and I thought Rangers just picked up first contact, second contact and just dominated the full 45 minutes and Celtic have shown plenty of signs that a comeback's impels a recovery over the last few weeks but I just didn't at any point see it coming again yesterday at Ibrox and then the second half was just a complete reverse.

41:17Andy Halliday:I thought it was then Celtic that were landing on all the loose balls and from then on in I thought Celtic controlled the second half but I think every big game outwith the first Old Firm game this season which was an absolute boar fest, I think every big game in Scotland this season has been incredible to watch, it's been real entertainment I don't think it was any different yesterday.

41:35Nedum Onuoha:Do either side take comfort from the point? I mean, Martin O 'Neill afterwards said, the second half belonged to us. We got an equaliser. If you're 2-0 down at halftime, you have to question yourself. And then I spent my life questioning myself to tell you the truth. But anyway, we pulled it round second half. God, I love him. Great effort by the players. They've shown great spirit. Coming here is a difficult task, particularly if you're chasing the game as we were, which on the one hand makes me sound grateful for the point, but a point doesn't really help either of them, Andy.

42:10Andy Halliday:No, I don't think it does. I think before the game I said that, I think a point was no good for either side. I think it turned out to obviously be a draw and I think the big winners of the weekend were Hearts. But I think in context of the game, given where Celtic were in the first half, and like I said, you didn't see any signs of recovery at that point, I think you do have to lean on the side that it was a decent point for Celtic in the end. I think big questions just have to be, and you've kind of felt that way, that where would Celtic be on the table just now if they kept Martin O 'Neill after his first interim spell and they never had the Wilfred Nancy De Bacco for the eight games that he was up in Scotland and like again didn't see it coming at all at any point yesterday but Martin O 'Neill just found something different found extra edges in Celtic I think by his own admission he felt as if he got his starting line-up wrong but I don't think anyone can disagree with him not starting Rio Hattati I mean Rio Hattati has been an absolutely tremendous player for Celtic over a couple of seasons but the down form the downturn in form for Real Hattani this season to what we've seen.

43:11Andy Halliday:I don't think there was any surprise he wasn't at the start line-up, but I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever. He made a massive impact in the game in the second half. With your mother, Real Hattani,

43:20Rory Smith:did you watch that equaliser go in yesterday afternoon and think, well, that'll do nicely?

43:27Andy Halliday:Yeah, it obviously gives you a better chance of getting closer to the two sides above you. I mean, truthfully, I think the players, and quite rightly so, go into every game so far and from now to the end of the season with so much confidence just given the consistency levels and performance throughout the season but the feeling that they've hit almost their best kind of form at the right stage I got told today in the last 16 games that Motherwell have scored 27 goals and only conceded three and you have that feeling just watching them I think there's been so many games where it's been total control from the first minute to the last you're obviously coming into a period of the season where every game is going to be difficult but I don't see any reason why the players shouldn't be confident against any side at the minute.

44:09Andy Halliday:Because for me, I think Hearts are the best team in the country because they've been the most consistent. But I don't think there's any doubt that Motherwell are the best football inside in the country. Let's talk about Motherwell then

44:18Nedum Onuoha:and what has happened this season and how it has changed bit by bit to this perception. And you've talked about it just then playing the best football. Chris is on record, as we've said the last couple of years and said you're playing the best football either north or south of the border in the top flight. How have you got to where you've got to, Andy? Because Motherwell, I know the old firm happened this weekend, but we'll park it now because Hearts and Motherwell are the story now. And we haven't taught Motherwell at all. So let's get into it.

44:50Andy Halliday:Well, the first good bit of news Motherwell got was I got injured for a long period of time. So they've managed to get up two, three levels after that. Listen, I think a lot of the credit and obviously a lot of the speculation and stories and quite rightly so have got to go to the manager. I think he's came in with an idea and a clarity in the way he wants to play that we very, very rarely see in Scottish football. I think for me, being a big lover of football and a big lover of Scottish football, I think Angie Celtic played an incredible style of football to watch but outside of Rangers and Celtic, there's not been many teams that dominate games of football the way that Jensbert Alasko's mother will do.

45:31Andy Halliday:And he's obviously very, very strong in his belief, his clarity and his information every single day. People always ask me what his training's like. It's very repetitive, but it's very repetitive because it's exactly the phases he wants to see his team play on the weekend. Sorry, Andy.

45:50Nedum Onuoha:Repetitive with the ball, repetitive without the ball, a bit of both?

45:55Andy Halliday:Yeah, both. Yeah, absolutely for both. I think throughout the season, I think we've always had credit as a team for how we play. possession. I think it's only recently when you start to see 16 clean sheets this season, the most across the top five in Europe. I think now you're starting to get the recognition of how good the players have actually been off the ball. For me, so hard working in terms of trying to get the ball back at the top end of the pitch. Take the same amount of pride in the defensive work than the boys do in possession as well. At the start of the season, it wasn't exactly a fantastic start.

46:28Andy Halliday:I think it was only two wins in the first eight games, but the performance levels were there, so there was still loads to take from it that you feel like you were only going to improve and get better, and then like he says it's only been, I think it's only been one league defeat since October, went on an incredible run that now hishes you in the conversation with the top three.

46:46Rory Smith:When he came in in the summer there's kind of two things that strike me as being remarkable one is that his background was not you know, he'd done ten years at Aberdeen and five years at Kilmarnock and you know he knew the lead, it was a risky appointment his biggest kind of managerial achievement was with HB Torshaden winning the double in the Faroe Islands, which will be harder than we give it credit for, but I think to a kind of group of grizzled... How do you know that? Because it always is harder than we give it credit for. There will be decent footballers in the Faroe Islands, Chris. Don't insult the Faroe Islands again.

47:18Rory Smith:But the other thing is, Andy, to just ignore... I'm just going to ignore Chris. Is to come in and tell you, OK, we're going to try and play a style of football that is riskier, that is more kind of ambitious... Is it riskier? And that kind of relies, well, let's let Andy answer that question, that relies, that basically says to the players, I trust your ability. Those are two quite big calls for the club to make and for the manager to make, aren't they?

47:45Andy Halliday:Yeah, well, we played, obviously, up in Scotland, you play the Premier Sports Cup before the league campaign starts. And we played Clyde in the very first game, and we do 2-2. and one of the goals we conceded was one of our centre midfield players dropping deep trying to play a square ball just 10 yards inside your pitch and your goalkeeper gets love for 30 yards the second game we then go 1-0 down at home to Peterhead and I'd be lying if the players don't then start to think I mean, is this working? Can you then take that into the league campaign? You're playing against the likes of Rangers, Celtic and Hearts and in the very first game of the season we played Rangers in a game where we got loads of credit, where we played extremely well, but the goal we concede comes from building out for a goal kick, Paul McGinn tries to play a square pass that goes out for a corner now, most managers I've played under would maybe berate you for playing that take a pass and giving away a corner and then some managers would probably tell you to start turning it for the next 10 minutes and playing long, but the manager's message has never wavered in fact, making you take my mistakes is almost praised at times because you're shown the bravery to continue to do it even when you've made mistakes, so and I think what always gets underplayed with managers we'll talk about Martin O 'Neill there and what he's done for certain individuals I think the end of the last group has came in and players that have played in Scotland for such a long period of time are playing the best football of their career Paul McGinn for me 35 year old played every game this season is playing the best football of his career at 35 Stephen Welsh he's been out the pitcher for a long period of time at Celtic has came on loan to Motherwell and been outstanding at the back so it's not only just the style of football we're playing in possession out of possession, I think he's actually creating sellable assets for Motherwell on the pitch and he's going to prolong people's careers as well.

49:30Nedum Onuoha:You were there last season as well. What belief has he given? I.e. when he came in, were there targets that he set? You know, at the start of every season when you've been with Motherwell, has the target been top six? Has it been don't get involved in a relegation fight? Has he sort of cleansed past mentality and allowed you to flourish at near the top of the table?

49:57Andy Halliday:There's never been any long-term targets that you set. It's always been very, you know, focused on the next game at hand. But I think a word that uses a lot is always belief. So a belief in the way you're playing, regardless of opponents. You know, the type of football we play doesn't waver, whether it is Clyde at home or Peter Head away. It's the exact same if you're going to Celtic Park or at Ibrox or at Tyne Castle. So I think that word belief, and again, and I talked about that repetitive nature, playing that exact same way. I think even though we started the season well in terms of performance levels, I just feel that the group of players have improved ever since.

50:32Andy Halliday:It'll be interesting if, I'm certainly not going to ask the question, but if somebody starts to ask me about potential targets now, he's probably got a different answer on his hands because, listen, there's no doubt whatsoever if you keep continuing to get the results that the team's getting just now, then obviously the sky's the limit.

50:47Nedum Onuoha:Sorry, Andy, did you say you're not going to answer the question if you get asked what the potential targets are?

50:52Andy Halliday:well I've been asked the question for the last two or three weeks I've been all the well title contenders and unless the manager's going to answer the question I certainly feel that I can't so like I said I feel as if a team's playing the best football in the country at the moment I think you can go into every game with plenty of confidence but I think he's took the approach of one game at a time so I think I've got to back him on that

51:12Nedum Onuoha:don't be horrible Chris now because I know exactly what you're about to do no you don't

51:16Chris Sutton:I was going to ask Andy because people view Jens Berzelasky as a as a sort of pure coach a brilliant coach what's his man management skills like?

51:33Andy Halliday:Do you know what? It's very very good I even take my own example obviously last season I had played every game felt as if I had a decent season myself individually and obviously coming into this season body not feeling maybe quite the same as it was last year but he's always been black and white with me he's always been up front, he's always been honest and even the 12 weeks or so that I was injured always made me feel part of it, asking questions what I thought about the games at the weekend we've got other big characters and players that have done really well for us last year like Liam Gordon and what not that have found their way out the team, so I think the players have done great in terms of they've not let their ego get ahead of it they've always put the team first but he's had difficult decisions to make, he's made difficult conversations to be had and he's took them but he's always been open and honest about it so I don't really think you know that players at all can have any bad bad word to say about them and when you see you know exactly what you're working on coming through Eshin and work as well as it does at the weekend there's not really too much you can complain about

52:36Nedum Onuoha:Before we let you go the place must be absolutely buzzing isn't it?

52:40Andy Halliday:Yeah yeah it certainly is obviously this is two and a half years I've been at the football club and I was talking to a couple of the players about it at the weekend you know Dundee United at home at this stage of the season over the past couple of seasons you're probably looking at 4-5 thousand people at Fur Park, you look at the attendances that Fur Park's got this season and I think it was just under 10 ,000 at the weekend there against Dundee United, the atmosphere like you said was obviously rocking for the first minute, I think obviously there's a recognition of what the players are doing on the pitch but the fans are loving what they're watching so I think it's obviously all Roge at the minute and hopefully we can keep a hold of him for another season after this one we'll let you get out of the car

53:21Chris Sutton:can I ask that one question Mark I know Andy you're a Motherwell player but who would you prefer to win the league Motherwell or Rangers

53:32Andy Halliday:Motherwell Chris

53:34Nedum Onuoha:you're such a horrible man at times thank you Andy talk to you soon this is the Monday Night Club with Mark Chapman on the Football Daily Podcast We're going to talk IFAB and the new rules they're looking to bring in. Darren Catton is with us to talk about this. Former assistant referee helps us through decisions every single weekend at BBC Football. So they are going to look at, Darren, corners, second yellow cards, and that will be added to the scope of VAR for this summer's World Cup. and then they will also look at other other ideas to cut down time wasting and loss of tempo so that's countdowns on goal kicks and throw-ins and substitutions and they're looking to do this from june the first is that for all of those things so they will all come in for this

54:27Darren Cann:world cup they will come in for the world cup yes and all bar corners will come into the premier League from the start of next season.

54:37Nedum Onuoha:Will the second yellow cards come in for the Premier League as well? Because they will.

54:42Darren Cann:And I think that's a good thing because I think it's totally unjustified when a player is shown a red card for their second cautionable offence and they have to leave the pitch, they're sent off and there's no recourse. It's not within the VAR's remit at the moment and I'm sure Rory will have been aware of what happened in Italy a couple of weeks ago with Inter Milan and Juventus when a player was sent off for what the referee deemed a second cautionable offence. When in fact a player dived, it was a player called Bastoni who dived and clearly got his opponent sent from the field of play. And the VAR was helpless to do anything about it.

55:22Darren Cann:So this is actually a really good change that anybody who's sent off for a second yellow card, at least the second yellow card can now be under the remit of the VAR so that justice can be seen to be done.

55:36Rory Smith:And Darren, just to make sure I'm absolutely clear on this, that's just the second yellow, it's not the first. They can't look back at the first and say, well, the first shouldn't have been a yellow.

55:45Darren Cann:Absolutely, Rory, yes. It's just the second yellow card. And of course, if a player got sent, or a player got booked in the first couple of minutes, you wouldn't want the VAR to have to spool back to try and find the first yellow to see the validity of that. So I think it's sensible that just that decision that was actually sent off the player for the second yellow card, just that one can be checked to make sure there is a correct decision.

56:08Mark Chapman:Darren, in regards to that sending off in Italy, the Bastogne incident, with the new law would that mean that the yellow card could be taken away but could a yellow card

56:17Darren Cann:be given to bastoni for diving yes absolutely right yes so bastoni would have received a yellow card and i think it was um kalulu wasn't it of the eventus who was uh sent off wrongly for a second yellow card when in fact he made no contact at all with the opponent so again it's just it's just justice that's all we want really is football fans don't we we don't want to see players sent off for a second yellow card when they haven't committed an offence darren one of the issues

56:48Rory Smith:we've seen with with var throughout is this sense that we're trying to reach a kind of objective definition of a lot of these offenses which has led to a bit of confusion hold on who's we we the football public in general okay so are we the problem no okay i like darren a lot so i I don't want to tell him who the problem is. But we've seen a little bit of kind of confusion around what's a handball, what's deliberate, what's not. There's kind of a messiness there. Surely with yellow cards, that is just asking for trouble because a yellow card is so much at the discretion of a referee.

57:23Chris Sutton:Not second yellow. The way Darren has described it, that can only be a good thing because it's about injustice, isn't it?

57:31Rory Smith:Yeah, Chris, you tell him. Go on. Hang on. But what constitutes a yellow card is often context and circumstance and referee dependent, isn't it?

57:41Darren Cann:Yeah. It is, yes. But just to be clear, it's only clearly incorrect second yellow cards that will be amended. And, of course, we won't be... Well, Darren, hang on a minute.

57:53Nedum Onuoha:Hang on. I know you're here to help us, and I do like working with you very much. But just adding the word clearing doesn't make it any different, does it, really? I mean, I thought at the moment everything's meant to be clear and obvious. Except the bits that aren't meant to be clear and obvious.

58:07Mark Chapman:But with this, though, are we not talking about potentially taking something away as opposed to giving somebody another yellow card? So this is why it's a positive. And I see it the same as you, Chris. Yeah, OK, I get that. That makes sense. That's what I mean. It feels like a weird bit of negativity about this, which is actually quite a positive.

58:20Nedum Onuoha:OK, yeah, that's true, I suppose. Just from your perspective, as someone who went to major tournaments, I don't know during your career how many new things were introduced for a World Cup or a Euros but is it frustrating that supposedly the biggest male football tournament on earth has a whole load of new rules introduced Let's give it a dough here I tell you what The whole world's watching, let's try this Let's introduce the corner thing for the World Cup final Is it a bit, do you find Did you find that frustrating? Do you think it is odd?

58:59Darren Cann:Well, of course, there's lots of pressure, particularly at the World Cup. And I recall going to World Cups where the magic spray was introduced for the first time on a global level. And also we had the goal line technology as well. So there's been lots of tournaments with new innovations. And those two things have been positive, I think. I don't agree with every law change across the years, and there have been many across the years, and it's hard to keep up with it. It certainly keeps me busy, and it's kept me busy the last three days since the IFAB meeting in Cardiff. But I think the majority of these changes will actually be positive, similar to the goalkeeper who had just eight seconds to release the ball.

59:43Darren Cann:There was some trepidation from fans regarding that, but I think that's a good example that's worked really well in the Premier League this season where the keepers get the ball back into play in a very prompt manner.

59:56Rory Smith:First of all, I like the fact that Darren still calls it magic spray, as we all do. I mean, it's just disappearing foam. It's not magic. But the dodge-so thing, the change to denial of a doll's opportunity, if a player on the same team as the player you bring down can be cleaned through, I think that's a smart thing as well. Because that's a weird loophole in the law. So if a player, if it could lead, Darren you'll explain this better than I will, but if the foul could lead or prevent another player on that team having a clear opportunity to score, that feels like that should obviously be a red card as well and I think it now will be, right?

1:00:36Darren Cann:That's absolutely right. And I wouldn't bet on me explaining it better than you, Rory, to be honest. But, yeah, imagine a quick break, a counterattack, three against one defender, and the player that's fouled isn't the player who has the clear goal-scoring opportunity. Now that will become, if you like, a team, obvious goal-scoring opportunity, so that will result in a red card.

1:01:00Nedum Onuoha:Darren, who's going to be in charge of all the countdowns for goal kicks, throw-ins, substitutions. Who's responsible for that?

1:01:10Darren Cann:So that will be the referee. And like he does now with the eight seconds in the Premier League for the goalkeeper releasing the ball from his hands, it'll be five seconds from a throw-in and five seconds from a goal kick. But just to be clear, it's not from the moment the ball leaves the pitch. Of course, it might be kicked into Rosehead. You're never going to get the ball back in five seconds from there.

1:01:32Chris Sutton:That would be a better watch, wouldn't it? someone at the scramble.

1:01:36Darren Cann:So I think, yeah, maybe, Chris, yeah. But I think it's down to the referee's discretion. So there is some discretion there. But if the referee feels that time is unfairly being consumed, then the referee will, if you like, put the thrower or put the goalkeeper on the clock. What's the punishment? The punishment for throw-ins will be that the throw-in goes to the other team. if they don't release the ball by the end of the five-second countdown, the visual display that the referee will give. And for a goal kick, the punishment will become a corner to the other team. So there's a real incentive for the players to get the ball back into play, which is football fans.

1:02:18Darren Cann:We want to see more football, more ball time in play and less time when it's out of play.

1:02:24Mark Chapman:Well, you see, that's the thing though, Darren, the little caveat there is you want to see it more when your team is chasing, when your team is losing, it goes the other way. And I think that with all these law changes and so on, they're all really good from a neutral standpoint. And then when the whole partisan nature of football kicks in, you start to get frustrated about things and that sense of injustice and so on. But I think as long as the majority of people understand what's going on, then everything's...

1:02:48Rory Smith:There's also a law of unintended consequences. So if you're a goalkeeper who suddenly, and I'm assuming that this will be some sort of massive visual countdown like in Gladiators, where it goes five, four, like that, that's what you want then you're not going to play a sensible short pass are you? You're going to boot it forward and is that what we want? We've gone old school.

1:03:05Nedum Onuoha:And also just finally

1:03:06Chris Sutton:How long is five seconds as well?

1:03:08Nedum Onuoha:They're also going to trial the Wenger offside thing about daylight between the two players they're going to trial that in Canada just very very quickly is there some kind of irony in them trying to speed the game up on the one hand and yet introduce more VAR on the other?

1:03:23Darren Cann:I agree Chappers for me the Wenger offside law is well intentioned but it simply won't work. It's completely impractical for an assistant referee to judge an offside, the back part of the attacker, because very often that's hidden from you. And in a crowded penalty area, it's hidden actually by another attacker. So you physically can't often see the back of the attacker anyway, so it won't work. I don't agree with trialling it in the Canadian Premier League either, because that's a league without VAR. The way this will fall down is that it will lead to a lot more VAR checks. So certainly more testing needs to be done, but I'm not a fan.

1:04:04Nedum Onuoha:Darren, thank you very much for being with us. Darren, come with us on the Monday Night Club. It is, honestly, every weekend he sits in the Match of the Day office to give us guidance on all the decisions and just ends up having the pundit shout at him for about seven hours. You've got to give it a

1:04:17Chris Sutton:chance though, Mark, this change. I am doing it. Yeah, just you sounded sort of overly negative. You've got to be glass half full. That's the way I am.

1:04:28Nedum Onuoha:Lovely to work with you again. Thank you. Thank you, Nadem. Thank you, Rory, as well. You can watch the Monday Night Club back on YouTube or on iPlayer. Kelly will have all the reaction to Tuesday's Premier League action on the next episode of the Football Daily.

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